Damage Mitigation: Explanation UPDATED 21/03/2021

paulsimonps

Xanox5 wrote: »

@paulsimonps
You mentioned Minor and Major Protection are adaptive with vulnerabilities in the calcuations, but you lists them in mitigation before damage shields.
So is the calculation like:

DAMAGE TAKEN=((Base Damage*(1-(Minor Protection)/100)*(1-(other Mitigation)/100)*(1+(Vulnerabilites)/100)*(1-(Resistance/660)/100)))-Damage Shields)*(1-(Blocking)/100)*(1-(Extra blocking)/100))

or like:

DAMAGE TAKEN=((Base Damage*(1-(Mitigation)/100)*(1+(Vulnerabilites-Minor Protection)/100)*(1-(Resistance/660)/100)))-Damage Shields)*(1-(Blocking)/100)*(1-(Extra blocking)/100))

And if it's calculated adaptive to the Vulnerabilities, are there other buffs/debuffs which are calcuated adaptive?

@Xanox5

DAMAGE TAKEN=((Base Damage*(1+(Maim)/100)*(1+(Vulnerability#1+Vulnerability#2-Mitigation#1-Mitigation#2)/100)*(1-(Resistance/660)/100)))-Damage Shields)*(1-(Blocking)/100)*(1-(Extra blocking)/100)

Not done further testing as of now since I last updated the thread but since it states in OP its not just protection its most sources of mitigation excluding Maim, resistance, blocking and extra blocking. However I did find buggy results using both Major and Minor Protection at the same time, as well as if I used Major and Minor Evasion at the same time. But was a while since I tested. Single player games have kept me busy as of late.

Not though that the mitigation sources are not additive if the vulnerability has already been canceled, I tried to test for the priority order of the different sources in that regard but never finished the testing.

ExistingRug61

@paulsimonps
Is the battle spirit mitigation also included in the sources of mitigation that are affected additively by vulnerability? Or is it separate like maim, resistance, blocking etc
I checked on you're builder and that's how it is there, but it just seemed odd to me as it means that minor/major vulnerability are around twice as effective against players as they are against pve mobs in terms of the relative damage increase.

ie: considering the damage value when applying minor vulnerability additively when battle spirit is present
Battle spirit only: 1-0.5=0.5
Battle spirit and minor vulnerability: 1+0.08-0.5=0.58
This means minor vulnerability is giving a relative 16% increase in damage in comparison to the damage I would have done without it. So if it is like this its actually even stronger than I though it was.

paulsimonps

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

@paulsimonps
Is the battle spirit mitigation also included in the sources of mitigation that are affected additively by vulnerability? Or is it separate like maim, resistance, blocking etc
I checked on you're builder and that's how it is there, but it just seemed odd to me as it means that minor/major vulnerability are around twice as effective against players as they are against pve mobs in terms of the relative damage increase.

ie: considering the damage value when applying minor vulnerability additively when battle spirit is present
Battle spirit only: 1-0.5=0.5
Battle spirit and minor vulnerability: 1+0.08-0.5=0.58
This means minor vulnerability is giving a relative 16% increase in damage in comparison to the damage I would have done without it. So if it is like this its actually even stronger than I though it was.

To be honest I don't remember if I tested with Battle Spirit or not, but considering its a buff applied on the player rather than a debuff on damage one could make the assumption it would work like that. So yea, vulnerabilities are very powerful in PvP.

Sordidfairytale

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oh also side note, know its not PTS section. But if left unchanged the PTS version of Immovable with 7 heavy on a Sorc with Defensive Stance and Bound Aegis can get you to 101% mitigation, making to so that for a 3 second window you are immune to all blockable attacks.

It's the same for any in 7 Heavy, yeah, or I'm missing something?

Block+Immovable+SwordAndBoard+Defensive Stance = 50+35+20+10 = 115

OG_Kaveman

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oh also side note, know its not PTS section. But if left unchanged the PTS version of Immovable with 7 heavy on a Sorc with Defensive Stance and Bound Aegis can get you to 101% mitigation, making to so that for a 3 second window you are immune to all blockable attacks.

It's the same for any in 7 Heavy, yeah, or I'm missing something?

Block+Immovable+SwordAndBoard+Defensive Stance = 50+35+20+10 = 115

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6265073#Comment_6265073

. Block mitigation now has a cap of 90%. This was done to prevent situations where you could reach 100% damage mitigation, which is not okay, m’kay?

Sordidfairytale

I got my timelines confused, I thought Paul had made that comment after. Never mind.

paulsimonps

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

I got my timelines confused, I thought Paul had made that comment after. Never mind.

NP but nah that was when it was first discovered.

Sordidfairytale

So this has me wondering, what is the most efficient block mitigation? The damage reduction percentages from block aren't added like I had assumed, because immovable + 7 Heavy still does something for my DK SnB tank.

ACamaroGuy

So I do not want my stats over 50%? I used the skills calc and looked at my mitigation sheet. I moved my champion points around to get those numbers at 50% or as close to 50% as possible. Am I correct for doing this?

paulsimonps

ACamaroGuy wrote: »

So I do not want my stats over 50%? I used the skills calc and looked at my mitigation sheet. I moved my champion points around to get those numbers at 50% or as close to 50% as possible. Am I correct for doing this?

I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish and what specific stats are you referring too?
But if you are talking about getting your total mitigation up then 50% is much lower than what you want to aim for. But if you are referring to resistance then yes the limit is 50% and no reason other than really tanky PvP characters to go past it.

Unless things have changed recently. Will admit that I have not looked at a patch note in quite some time.

@ACamaroGuy

ricklaverd

Battle spirit is calculated 1st in every case ; off the tooltip of every player. If you have a 10k shield tooltip befor entering cyrodiil then it will read 5k once you enter the pvp zone. For abilities if the tooltip says 10000dmg then all base calculations will start off from 5000dmg and subtract all the mitigations etc.The only thing calculated befor battle spirit is maim and that is removed off the tooltip @ExistingRug61

Nycoo

Hello,
I would like to know if the following formula for calculating average base damage is still correct? (To replace the "Base damage" of yours.)
Source Tamriel Foundry by Asayre, february 4th, 2017.

Average damage = (Stamina + 10.5 x Weapon damage) x (CP bonus + Buff) x (1 - Mitigation) x (1 + Critical Chance x Critical modifier).

Or to calculate the real damage :
Average damage = Tooltip x (CP bonus + Buff) x (1 - Mitigation) x (1 + Critical Chance x Critical modifier).
Thank you for your insightful responses.

Have a nice day.
Nycoo
Sorry for my english, i'm french.

paulsimonps

Nycoo wrote: »

Hello,
I would like to know if the following formula for calculating average base damage is still correct? (To replace the "Base damage" of yours.)
Source Tamriel Foundry by Asayre, february 4th, 2017.

Average damage = (Stamina + 10.5 x Weapon damage) x (CP bonus + Buff) x (1 - Mitigation) x (1 + Critical Chance x Critical modifier).

Or to calculate the real damage :
Average damage = Tooltip x (CP bonus + Buff) x (1 - Mitigation) x (1 + Critical Chance x Critical modifier).
Thank you for your insightful responses.

Have a nice day.
Nycoo
Sorry for my english, i'm french.

I would not be able to tell. Not done the testing on that part. I only do mitigation and the calculation of what becomes the base damage I use is out of my expertise. As well I do know that it varies widely from skill to skill. Might have changed since last I looked, which was a while ago since I am currently not actively playing, just logging in every once in a while, but from what I remember not all skills scale the same with stamina/magicka and weapon/spell damage.

Myrddin1357

Can someone please confirm if my understanding of the original post is correct?

For pve at least 33, 100 physical and spell resistance gives you 50 percent mitigation to all incoming physical and spell damage. It also says that 50% mitigation is the maximum you can get from resistances (with using block or other forms of mitigation).

So does this mean that if I already have 33k + resistance, any CP points I put into iron clad, hardy, thick skinned and elemental resistance wont add any further mitigation?

If I wanted to get to 50 percent mitigation just from resistance, I just need to make sure that my cp percentage mitigation and armor resistance (a value of 660 equates to 1 percent mitigation) add up to 50?

If a monster heavy attacks (direct damage) me with a physical damage weapon and assuming I have enough points in iron clad for a 15 percent damage reduction, then I only need another 35 percent from physical resistance (around 23k) to reach cap right? And if I do have 23K in physical resistance, any CP points in hardy will be wasted right?

BejaProphet

You need to distinguish between your “resistances” and your total cumulative amount of mitigation.

Your spell and physical resistance caps at 50%, but they are but one “layer” of your total mitigation.

Other layers include blocking, iron clad, thick skin, ele defender, hardy, minor and major protection, minor aegis, etc.

A large emphasis of his post is explaining to you how to calculate your total mitigation.

My resistances are at the 50% cap, but when I am blocking and all those other sources are stacking I mitigate a total of slightly over 90% damage.

Nestor

Myrddin1357 wrote: »

Can someone please confirm if my understanding of the original post is correct?

For pve at least 33, 100 physical and spell resistance gives you 50 percent mitigation to all incoming physical and spell damage. It also says that 50% mitigation is the maximum you can get from resistances (with using block or other forms of mitigation).

So does this mean that if I already have 33k + resistance, any CP points I put into iron clad, hardy, thick skinned and elemental resistance wont add any further mitigation?

Physical Resistance is not Spell Resistance and that is not Poison Resistance or Elemental Resistance etc. So, follow the CP Guidlines for the Health Tree.

Myrddin1357

BejaProphet wrote: »

You need to distinguish between your “resistances” and your total cumulative amount of mitigation.

Your spell and physical resistance caps at 50%, but they are but one “layer” of your total mitigation.

Other layers include blocking, iron clad, thick skin, ele defender, hardy, minor and major protection, minor aegis, etc.

A large emphasis of his post is explaining to you how to calculate your total mitigation.

My resistances are at the 50% cap, but when I am blocking and all those other sources are stacking I mitigate a total of slightly over 90% damage.

Nestor wrote: »

Physical Resistance is not Spell Resistance and that is not Poison Resistance or Elemental Resistance etc. So, follow the CP Guidlines for the Health Tree.

Thanks for the responses - my question was really whether in my simple example of the heavy attack by the sword, hardy (reduce damage from physical) would add anything if my physical resistance was already at cap and it looks like that it will since these layers augment each other.

What confused me was the following from the original post:

Another thing we need to address now is how those sub categories work with the main resistance types. Sub categories adds to their main type whenever the attack element is of the same element. As an example, if I have 15000 spell resistance and 5000 flame resistance then if I get attack with a fire spell then I will have 20000 spell resistance against that attack. One thing to note here is that if your Spell or Physical resistance is already at hard cap then your sub categories will not add anything, since they are just temporary increases to the main type if attacked by the right element.

Elemental Defender says it reduces damage from flame, frost, shock and magic - which are all sub categories of spell resistance. The excerpt above is definitely saying if your spell resistance is at hard cap then these sub categories dont add anything (which implies elemental defender won't add additional mitigation if spell resistance is at 33k).

paulsimonps

Myrddin1357 wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

You need to distinguish between your “resistances” and your total cumulative amount of mitigation.

Your spell and physical resistance caps at 50%, but they are but one “layer” of your total mitigation.

Other layers include blocking, iron clad, thick skin, ele defender, hardy, minor and major protection, minor aegis, etc.

A large emphasis of his post is explaining to you how to calculate your total mitigation.

My resistances are at the 50% cap, but when I am blocking and all those other sources are stacking I mitigate a total of slightly over 90% damage.

Nestor wrote: »

Physical Resistance is not Spell Resistance and that is not Poison Resistance or Elemental Resistance etc. So, follow the CP Guidlines for the Health Tree.

Thanks for the responses - my question was really whether in my simple example of the heavy attack by the sword, hardy (reduce damage from physical) would add anything if my physical resistance was already at cap and it looks like that it will since these layers augment each other.

What confused me was the following from the original post:

Another thing we need to address now is how those sub categories work with the main resistance types. Sub categories adds to their main type whenever the attack element is of the same element. As an example, if I have 15000 spell resistance and 5000 flame resistance then if I get attack with a fire spell then I will have 20000 spell resistance against that attack. One thing to note here is that if your Spell or Physical resistance is already at hard cap then your sub categories will not add anything, since they are just temporary increases to the main type if attacked by the right element.

Elemental Defender says it reduces damage from flame, frost, shock and magic - which are all sub categories of spell resistance. The excerpt above is definitely saying if your spell resistance is at hard cap then these sub categories dont add anything (which implies elemental defender won't add additional mitigation if spell resistance is at 33k).

@Myrddin1357
The resistance sub types are not the same as the CP sub types. The only CP that will effect your mitigation from resistance are those that specifically increase your resistance. Elemental Defender is always gonna apply on top of resistance even if your spell resistance is maxed out. The mitigation from Elemental Defender is not a sub type for resistance.

Myrddin1357

I got it now! Thank you for confirming it paulsimonps (Bajaprophet clarified it for me as well).

I find the resistance and CP system in this game needlessly complicated! But thanks for sharing your research into this. I found it incredibly helpful.

Oakiyo

Hi @paulsimonps ,

First, thank you for your work, it help a lot.

I have a question, and I couldn't find an answer in the response of this topic (did I miss it ? ). Are the resistance of the armor rounded ?
For example, if I have 6666 armor, will the mitigation result in 10.1% mitigation, or just 10% and the 66 are wasted ?

Thank you again !

EDIT : I found the answer after reading again the topic. I can't remove that post, so sorry for the duplicated question.

paulsimonps

Working on updating this but more things to test keeps poping up. Wanted to post this thought to ask

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Can it please be implemented that the block mitigation advanced stat does not show values above 90% as that is the cap for that stat. Its still possible to see values past that, which might be confusing for players that might not know about the cap.

Sangwyne

paulsimonps wrote: »

Working on updating this but more things to test keeps poping up. Wanted to post this thought to ask

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Can it please be implemented that the block mitigation advanced stat does not show values above 90% as that is the cap for that stat. Its still possible to see values past that, which might be confusing for players that might not know about the cap.

Necro main spotted. My guy, this thread is from 2016, so much has changed, please just let it die and start a new one.

paulsimonps

Sangwyne wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Working on updating this but more things to test keeps poping up. Wanted to post this thought to ask

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Can it please be implemented that the block mitigation advanced stat does not show values above 90% as that is the cap for that stat. Its still possible to see values past that, which might be confusing for players that might not know about the cap.

Necro main spotted. My guy, this thread is from 2016, so much has changed, please just let it die and start a new one.

yup and I have updated it several several times and people link and refer to this one all the time, which is why I don't make new ones but update this one for everyone's convenience. thank you.

OG_Kaveman

Sangwyne wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Working on updating this but more things to test keeps poping up. Wanted to post this thought to ask

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Can it please be implemented that the block mitigation advanced stat does not show values above 90% as that is the cap for that stat. Its still possible to see values past that, which might be confusing for players that might not know about the cap.

Necro main spotted. My guy, this thread is from 2016, so much has changed, please just let it die and start a new one.

lol

BejaProphet

@Sangwyne this thread is a work of love and should be pinned rather than allowed to die. This guy had been compiling, testing, and verifying mechanics since...well since 2016 apparently.

superryan94

For TheTankClub I'm currently working on updating the formula since it's not 100% accurate, but within 500 dmg on 155478 dmg which is really nice accuracy.

That not 100% accurate is more due to some weird things on zos's side than his formula.
A few things I found are:
That resistance mitigation starts counting at 101, not at 1,
The mitigation between 32999 and 33000 is comparable to 100-200 which is kinda odd...
Minor Aegis does not have a set value of 5%, but somewhere around 4.82%, but can got between 5.001 and 4.598,
Armor passives deviate a little from the tooltip,
CP stages deviate a little from the tooltip.

This is what I found from extracting data from the game(1000 times getting slapped by Olms in vAS).

Once I'm finished I'll post it in TheTankClub for review and if they give it a go, post it here on the forums.

@paulsimonps I have to note that from this reply I may seem like an ass, but I greatly respect the work you have done. Now I'm working on it I see that it takes a huge amount of time and effort to figure it all out. Thanks for the work you have done so far, it helped me and so many other understanding mitigation in this game.

Beardimus

paulsimonps wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Working on updating this but more things to test keeps poping up. Wanted to post this thought to ask

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Can it please be implemented that the block mitigation advanced stat does not show values above 90% as that is the cap for that stat. Its still possible to see values past that, which might be confusing for players that might not know about the cap.

Necro main spotted. My guy, this thread is from 2016, so much has changed, please just let it die and start a new one.

yup and I have updated it several several times and people link and refer to this one all the time, which is why I don't make new ones but update this one for everyone's convenience. thank you.

Spot on @paulsimonps it's a work of art and thank you for all the effort over the years

actosh

Yep, credit belongs to @paulsimonps.

paulsimonps

superryan94 wrote: »

For TheTankClub I'm currently working on updating the formula since it's not 100% accurate, but within 500 dmg on 155478 dmg which is really nice accuracy.

That not 100% accurate is more due to some weird things on zos's side than his formula.
A few things I found are:
That resistance mitigation starts counting at 101, not at 1,
The mitigation between 32999 and 33000 is comparable to 100-200 which is kinda odd...
Minor Aegis does not have a set value of 5%, but somewhere around 4.82%, but can got between 5.001 and 4.598,
Armor passives deviate a little from the tooltip,
CP stages deviate a little from the tooltip.

This is what I found from extracting data from the game(1000 times getting slapped by Olms in vAS).

Once I'm finished I'll post it in TheTankClub for review and if they give it a go, post it here on the forums.

@paulsimonps I have to note that from this reply I may seem like an ass, but I greatly respect the work you have done. Now I'm working on it I see that it takes a huge amount of time and effort to figure it all out. Thanks for the work you have done so far, it helped me and so many other understanding mitigation in this game.

@superryan94

Gonna be honest. Not tested Minor Aegis in A LONG Time. So if you are finding that its not actually 5% then that makes me want to test it as well. And yes so the way ZOS does their calculations are indeed a bit weird. If I remember right it was explained to me that they do not use decimals, so with some calculations doing it on a regular calculator vs the way they do it can make it be off by a little bit. Most of the time cause of that I just claim close enough and move on. However when working with smaller numbers I tend to put more weight on being of by even just 1.

Btw with the resistance. Mobs have a 100 base pen. So your findings on that is correct. I remember checking that by making and combining low level armor and glyphs.

Though could you define what you mean by the armor and CP deviating from the tooltip? Especially if you are referring to the new ones. Not tested the vulnerability of the Heavy and Light armor passives yet. Most likely gonna do that today. But I saw nothing iffy about the CP 2.0 passives and how they work. Other than that they stack a bit odd sometimes Short version is that Hardy/Elemental Aegis+Preparation+Duelist Rebuff/Unassailable/Enduring Resolve. These stack together additively. Hardy and Elemental Aegis obviously can't be used at the same time cause of the different damage types, however the 3 damage forms work differently depending on how many are used. Enduring Resolve can work at the same time as Duelist Rebuff or Unassailable, however only one of them can stack additive with the rest at any given time, the other one gets multiplied in as a separate source. They stack additive with the one that has the largest value if their values differ.

superryan94

Minor Aegis I gave up on for the time being as I could not get a clear line out of it. I'll look at it a later time again though.

I did not test on light armor yet, but heavy armor is ~1.111% per piece.

Fortification is:
Stage 1 I tested it to be around 2.174
Stage 2 I tested it to be around 4.443
Stage 3 I tested it to be around 6.818

Hardy I did not finish yet as I had a trial, but I have the first 2 stages.
Stage 1 I tested it to be around 1.163
Stage 2 I tested it to be around 2.353

Also for resistance, on Olms( best baseline) I got to an annoying
Recieved damage=(0.000000000285170039894128x(resistance^2))+(-2.35573639510313xresistance)+Base Damage
quadratic equation after a week of getting slapped 100s of times. Still not exact as it's off by 1 at times and at 33000 it's weird as there is a huge jump in mitigation.

Left side is resistance, middle is received damage and right is expected damage.
Received is in line with expected on 76 of 80 results with only under 100 and 33000 not being what I expected.

This is how far I've gotten till now.
I need to find another source of damage close to what olms does to check if the resistance formula is actually correct or if those numbers need some more other deformation added to it....