Damage Mitigation: Explanation UPDATED 21/03/2021

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Aznox wrote: »

I've recently seen more people stacking %value penetration with flat-value penetration, on the premise that % is apply before flat-value.

However i had the impression that this has not always been true, if so when did it change ? or am I mixing up with something else like block cost ?

Mauls 10/20% pen is after debuffs, like major fracture but before self buffs, like lover or the cp node.

Aznox

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

I've recently seen more people stacking %value penetration with flat-value penetration, on the premise that % is apply before flat-value.

However i had the impression that this has not always been true, if so when did it change ? or am I mixing up with something else like block cost ?

Mauls 10/20% pen is after debuffs, like major fracture but before self buffs, like lover or the cp node.

Makes sense, so Maul/2xMace is worth 6600 penetration, on a 33k resist target, 5544 on the same 33k when coupled with major fracture. (and 4996 if you add Torug Infused Crusher on top of that)

paulsimonps

Aznox wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

I've recently seen more people stacking %value penetration with flat-value penetration, on the premise that % is apply before flat-value.

However i had the impression that this has not always been true, if so when did it change ? or am I mixing up with something else like block cost ?

Mauls 10/20% pen is after debuffs, like major fracture but before self buffs, like lover or the cp node.

Makes sense, so Maul/2xMace is worth 6600 penetration, on a 33k resist target, 5544 on the same 33k when coupled with major fracture. (and 4996 if you add Torug Infused Crusher on top of that)

No that's not it. It's 10% if what's left after debuffs, not 10% from what 100% would be if we could reach it. Major and Minor Fracture and Breach, Crusher(+Torugs/Infused) and Alkosh hits before it. So say on a PvP player with 20,000 resistance and your debuffs gets him down to 15,000 then the maul will only penetrait an additional 1,500.

paulsimonps

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Just to be clear -- a player's denominator for resistance is 66,000, in that 33K/66K = 50% mitigation, 10K resistance would be close to 15% mitigation, and so on?

But for mobs, trash and bosses alike, the denominator is 50K instead?

Correct?

Yes, mobs got 500 resistance for 1% mitigation and players have 660 for 1%.

Aznox

paulsimonps wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

I've recently seen more people stacking %value penetration with flat-value penetration, on the premise that % is apply before flat-value.

However i had the impression that this has not always been true, if so when did it change ? or am I mixing up with something else like block cost ?

Mauls 10/20% pen is after debuffs, like major fracture but before self buffs, like lover or the cp node.

Makes sense, so Maul/2xMace is worth 6600 penetration, on a 33k resist target, 5544 on the same 33k when coupled with major fracture. (and 4996 if you add Torug Infused Crusher on top of that)

No that's not it. It's 10% if what's left after debuffs, not 10% from what 100% would be if we could reach it. Major and Minor Fracture and Breach, Crusher(+Torugs/Infused) and Alkosh hits before it. So say on a PvP player with 20,000 resistance and your debuffs gets him down to 15,000 then the maul will only penetrait an additional 1,500.

Yes ... i'm pretty sure that's exactly what i wrote ...? Btw Maul (2h) or 2xMace (dw) is 20%, not 10.

paulsimonps

Aznox wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

I've recently seen more people stacking %value penetration with flat-value penetration, on the premise that % is apply before flat-value.

However i had the impression that this has not always been true, if so when did it change ? or am I mixing up with something else like block cost ?

Mauls 10/20% pen is after debuffs, like major fracture but before self buffs, like lover or the cp node.

Makes sense, so Maul/2xMace is worth 6600 penetration, on a 33k resist target, 5544 on the same 33k when coupled with major fracture. (and 4996 if you add Torug Infused Crusher on top of that)

No that's not it. It's 10% if what's left after debuffs, not 10% from what 100% would be if we could reach it. Major and Minor Fracture and Breach, Crusher(+Torugs/Infused) and Alkosh hits before it. So say on a PvP player with 20,000 resistance and your debuffs gets him down to 15,000 then the maul will only penetrait an additional 1,500.

Yes ... i'm pretty sure that's exactly what i wrote ...? Btw Maul (2h) or 2xMace (dw) is 20%, not 10.

Ah I missread, people talking about 33/66k messed me up as the 66 doesn't matter and I meant to put mace. Just woke up But yeah the less debuffs and more resistance the target has the more value mace's and mauls have.

Aznox

paulsimonps wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

I've recently seen more people stacking %value penetration with flat-value penetration, on the premise that % is apply before flat-value.

However i had the impression that this has not always been true, if so when did it change ? or am I mixing up with something else like block cost ?

Mauls 10/20% pen is after debuffs, like major fracture but before self buffs, like lover or the cp node.

Makes sense, so Maul/2xMace is worth 6600 penetration, on a 33k resist target, 5544 on the same 33k when coupled with major fracture. (and 4996 if you add Torug Infused Crusher on top of that)

No that's not it. It's 10% if what's left after debuffs, not 10% from what 100% would be if we could reach it. Major and Minor Fracture and Breach, Crusher(+Torugs/Infused) and Alkosh hits before it. So say on a PvP player with 20,000 resistance and your debuffs gets him down to 15,000 then the maul will only penetrait an additional 1,500.

Yes ... i'm pretty sure that's exactly what i wrote ...? Btw Maul (2h) or 2xMace (dw) is 20%, not 10.

Ah I missread, people talking about 33/66k messed me up as the 66 doesn't matter and I meant to put mace. Just woke up But yeah the less debuffs and more resistance the target has the more value mace's and mauls have.

Thanks for your work on maintaining this post and the buff/debuff list

md3788

paulsimonps wrote: »

Another thing we need to address now is how those sub categories work with the main resistance types. Sub categories adds to their main type whenever the attack element is of the same element. As an example, if I have 15000 spell resistance and 5000 flame resistance then if I get attack with a fire spell then I will have 20000 spell resistance against that attack. One thing to note here is that if your Spell or Physical resistance is already at hard cap then your sub categories will not add anything, since they are just temporary increases to the main type if attacked by the right element. But again if you get debuffed then anything above hard cap will help you stay up. Last thing to note about the sub categories is that since they are in its base form just adding to their main type then if someone penetrates your Spell or Physical resistance then they will penetrate your sub categories too. But now on to the next part of this thread and last form of resistance.

So if I understand this correctly, once you get to 33k physical and spell resistance, any points put into Hardy and Elemental defender are wasted? (PvE)

paulsimonps

md3788 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Another thing we need to address now is how those sub categories work with the main resistance types. Sub categories adds to their main type whenever the attack element is of the same element. As an example, if I have 15000 spell resistance and 5000 flame resistance then if I get attack with a fire spell then I will have 20000 spell resistance against that attack. One thing to note here is that if your Spell or Physical resistance is already at hard cap then your sub categories will not add anything, since they are just temporary increases to the main type if attacked by the right element. But again if you get debuffed then anything above hard cap will help you stay up. Last thing to note about the sub categories is that since they are in its base form just adding to their main type then if someone penetrates your Spell or Physical resistance then they will penetrate your sub categories too. But now on to the next part of this thread and last form of resistance.

So if I understand this correctly, once you get to 33k physical and spell resistance, any points put into Hardy and Elemental defender are wasted? (PvE)

@md3788
No, you must have misunderstood. Hardy and Elemental Defender are separate from resistance and is it's own source of mitigation. Armor focus and spell shield however are resistance and gets wasted if your resistance is at the cap and you put more points past it, in pve at least.

Samsgaard

@paulsimonps

Since Murkmire launched, people have been saying that "shields now have resistance." But from your analysis, I think the better way to think of it is simply that the player's resistance applies to reduce the incoming hit before the shield comes into play. The shield soaks up as much of the unmitigated damage as it can, but it has no resistance of its own.

Correct?

paulsimonps

Samsgaard wrote: »

@paulsimonps

Since Murkmire launched, people have been saying that "shields now have resistance." But from your analysis, I think the better way to think of it is simply that the player's resistance applies to reduce the incoming hit before the shield comes into play. The shield soaks up as much of the unmitigated damage as it can, but it has no resistance of its own.

Correct?

Yes, that is correct. Shields don't have a separate resistance value, it just subtracts damage from what is left over after all the mitigation, save blocking.

ChefZero

Does anyone know if % penetration from different sources stack additive or multiplicative?

Aznox

ChefZero wrote: »

Does anyone know if % penetration from different sources stack additive or multiplicative?

is there even any case outside of dual maces ?

Minno

Aznox wrote: »

ChefZero wrote: »

Does anyone know if % penetration from different sources stack additive or multiplicative?

is there even any case outside of dual maces ?

For pvp, yea.

The way it's calculated, you compile all your penetration and subtractit from your armor. However, percentage based penetration is calculated after major/minor forms of penetration.

So the order of operations for penetration is:
1) subtract major/minor sources from your target
2) multiply the percentage penetration against the armor that is left after major/minor
3) subtract all flat, sources of penetration (sharpened trait, spinners, crushing enchant, set bonuses, etc).

Aznox

@Minno yes ty but i think this is well known by now in this thread.

@ChefZero was asking specifically about %penetration, like does 2x10%pen (2xMace) gives the same result as 1x20%pen (Maul)

I was asking if their are other %pen sources than maces,maul,destro.

ChefZero

Aznox wrote: »

@Minno yes ty but i think this is well known by now in this thread.

@ChefZero was asking specifically about %penetration, like does 2x10%pen (2xMace) gives the same result as 1x20%pen (Maul)

I was asking if their are other %pen sources than maces,maul,destro.

I don't think so. I think I was just wrong and misread a description.

paulsimonps

I have finally updated this thread with some new explanations and things that were changed that I never had time to update. I put it off for a long time cause I wanted to test more and finalize my results but even though I am not finished I thought I owed it to y'all to post what I know for those that do not. As always, if you find anything out of place or wrong do let me know so I can update and fix things, especially the list of sources, that is still work in progress, just too tired after rewriting this to fix it today Enjoy people.

Oh also side note, know its not PTS section. But if left unchanged the PTS version of Immovable with 7 heavy on a Sorc with Defensive Stance and Bound Aegis can get you to 101% mitigation, making to so that for a 3 second window you are immune to all blockable attacks.

Tsukiino

@paulsimonps
When did it suddenly change from 33,100 (662 points per 1% mitigation) to 33,000 (660 points per 1% mitigation)?

paulsimonps

Tsukiino wrote: »

@paulsimonps
When did it suddenly change from 33,100 (662 points per 1% mitigation) to 33,000 (660 points per 1% mitigation)?

Ah yes when I first did all this, way way back, I failed to account for the base 100 pen that all mobs have and therefor I thought it was 33,100. I was simply wrong sorry. But yea its. 33,000 but to get to the hardcap in PvE you need atleast 33,100 for the base 100pen.

NuarBlack

Maybe I'm blind and just can't find it but are sub categories additive or multiplicative? I get that different sources interact multiplicatively but what about CP mitigation? I remember a "bug" that made it so you got more mitigation based on which stars you pumped up first indicating it was working additive in one case and multiplicative in another. If they are additive it wouldn't matter what stars you put points in first. But if they are multiplicative then that bug must still exist or an order of operations was implemented and if so, do you know what it is. Example is ele defender calculated before thick skinned or after?

Sergykid

man that's too complicated for the casual player like me. In conclusion, protection buffs and maim debuffs are more important than raw resistances? and berserk and vulnerability are more important than raw stats?

JinougaX

Tfw you just wanna chill after work, have a bear and play the game. But everyone else is a mathematician

actosh

@paulsimonps

Have u added Power Extraction" from NB´s yet?

No_Division

Sergykid wrote: »

man that's too complicated for the casual player like me. In conclusion, protection buffs and maim debuffs are more important than raw resistances? and berserk and vulnerability are more important than raw stats?

Baby TLDR:
- % based protection now suffers from vulnerability subtracting from it. So it works like penetration does to resistance; subtracts before being multiplied.
- There is an order of which sets/skills subtract from vulnerability first. All you need to know is that major/minor protection are last and therefore still strong if you have other % mitigation and your target doesnt run minor vuln.
- maim is always multiplied and is the first mitigation to go first. It's value is very strong.
- resistance, aside from being penetrated, is also entirely multiplied. So it's value is also strong.
- stats are still important but they govern your build. General rule of thumb for pvp is find your sustain/tankiness first then stack dmg stats so you can at least play.
- block is OP lol.

Syiccal

No_Division wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

man that's too complicated for the casual player like me. In conclusion, protection buffs and maim debuffs are more important than raw resistances? and berserk and vulnerability are more important than raw stats?

Baby TLDR:
- % based protection now suffers from vulnerability subtracting from it. So it works like penetration does to resistance; subtracts before being multiplied.
- There is an order of which sets/skills subtract from vulnerability first. All you need to know is that major/minor protection are last and therefore still strong if you have other % mitigation and your target doesnt run minor vuln.
- maim is always multiplied and is the first mitigation to go first. It's value is very strong.
- resistance, aside from being penetrated, is also entirely multiplied. So it's value is also strong.
- stats are still important but they govern your build. General rule of thumb for pvp is find your sustain/tankiness first then stack dmg stats so you can at least play.
- block is OP lol.

That being said, would wizards reposte out perform steadfast hero if double barred? And stead fast backbarred

No_Division

Syiccal wrote: »

No_Division wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

man that's too complicated for the casual player like me. In conclusion, protection buffs and maim debuffs are more important than raw resistances? and berserk and vulnerability are more important than raw stats?

Baby TLDR:
- % based protection now suffers from vulnerability subtracting from it. So it works like penetration does to resistance; subtracts before being multiplied.
- There is an order of which sets/skills subtract from vulnerability first. All you need to know is that major/minor protection are last and therefore still strong if you have other % mitigation and your target doesnt run minor vuln.
- maim is always multiplied and is the first mitigation to go first. It's value is very strong.
- resistance, aside from being penetrated, is also entirely multiplied. So it's value is also strong.
- stats are still important but they govern your build. General rule of thumb for pvp is find your sustain/tankiness first then stack dmg stats so you can at least play.
- block is OP lol.

That being said, would wizards reposte out perform steadfast hero if double barred? And stead fast backbarred

7% difference between the two. YOu have to answer that yourself. Do you value:
- 2975 resist or 129 SD/MR?

Ek1

paulsimonps wrote: »

Now some of these lists do need updating and will fix them at a later date, as well when next update comes some of these list will have additional sources.

Are you testing these or you got some other source? You plan to update this or is there a better place for DR info?

jdmoonan

I just wanted to say I found only one issue with your math here. I noticed that you applied minor maim to the same calculation as all the damage reductions, that is not how it is applied. Remember that minor maim is a debuff applied to the target and would be a 15% reduction to their out going damage.

For example:

-PVE
Mob has 1000 out going damage and is applied minor maim.
Math: 1000-(1000*.15)=850
That would mean that you would be taking 850 incoming damage and then you would apply your character specific resists.

-PVP
Battle Spirit automatic 50% damage reduction. Player has 1000 out going damageand is applied minor maim.
Math: 1000-(1000*.5)=500-(500*.15)=425

Making minor maim an additive value. Because the way it is applied.

Other than that solid math, this was basically just semantics on how the debuff was applied.

paulsimonps

jdmoonan wrote: »

I just wanted to say I found only one issue with your math here. I noticed that you applied minor maim to the same calculation as all the damage reductions, that is not how it is applied. Remember that minor maim is a debuff applied to the target and would be a 15% reduction to their out going damage.

For example:

-PVE
Mob has 1000 out going damage and is applied minor maim.
Math: 1000-(1000*.15)=850
That would mean that you would be taking 850 incoming damage and then you would apply your character specific resists.

-PVP
Battle Spirit automatic 50% damage reduction. Player has 1000 out going damageand is applied minor maim.
Math: 1000-(1000*.5)=500-(500*.15)=425

Making minor maim an additive value. Because the way it is applied.

Other than that solid math, this was basically just semantics on how the debuff was applied.

@jdmoonan

1000*0.5*0.85=425

Same value, its not additive. Even if its applied to the attacker and not to you, which I know, that just means its more likely not to stack additive with other mitigation forms. As well, Battle Spirit reduced damage taken, it does not reduce damage dealt, aka its not a debuff on the caster but rather a buff on yourself. So as long as we don't have a subtraction in there anywhere the order of operation doesn't matter as they are both multiplications on the same level with no necessary parenthesis.

Xanox5

@paulsimonps
You mentioned Minor and Major Protection are adaptive with vulnerabilities in the calcuations, but you lists them in mitigation before damage shields.
So is the calculation like:

DAMAGE TAKEN=((Base Damage*(1-(Minor Protection)/100)*(1-(other Mitigation)/100)*(1+(Vulnerabilites)/100)*(1-(Resistance/660)/100)))-Damage Shields)*(1-(Blocking)/100)*(1-(Extra blocking)/100))

or like:

DAMAGE TAKEN=((Base Damage*(1-(Mitigation)/100)*(1+(Vulnerabilites-Minor Protection)/100)*(1-(Resistance/660)/100)))-Damage Shields)*(1-(Blocking)/100)*(1-(Extra blocking)/100))

And if it's calculated adaptive to the Vulnerabilities, are there other buffs/debuffs which are calcuated adaptive?