Damage Mitigation: Explanation UPDATED 21/03/2021

Minno

Arbitrator wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

So let me get this right... the Warden is going to get:
Major maim, minor maim through frost damage, major protection, minor protection, and minor evasion.. all on top of minor toughness, and major mending? (This isn't all of their available buffs by the way...)

You've got to be kidding me. They've taken Major Mending away from the Templar and gave stuff to the Warden that the Templar should have had in the first place. The Warden is going to be the Best Tank and Healer by far.

Their heals are instant and they buff teammates up tremendously without even having set bonuses, unlike the Templar whose heals cost a *** ton and we've even got a garbage cast time heal when they get instants. All the Warden needs is a Major Evasion set from Spectres Eye or Hist Bark and they will be the best tank in the whole game. They get every single defensive buff there is except Major Evasion which is easy to acquire!

They can give their whole group Major and Minor Resolve with 1 ability! How is this even real? Zenimax do you not realize how damn bad the Templar is in comparison? The Templar sorely needs to be redesigned from the ground up. This just isn't right. It's not balanced at all. An mmo always has ups and downs with classes but the Templar has been the worst class since this game began! All because of their healing tree and your ridiculous vision for what a Templar is supposed to be. But lookout the Warden is more than viable in all 3 roles and excels in 2 out of 3 of those roles.

How can you sit back and agree that this is ok or fair? Plus you give them a spammable AoE immobilize that scales with max health! Templars have been begging for an AoE CC since you took Blinding Flashes away from us and you have constantly turned aside and given us nothing! It's not right! You've nerfed our single target CC down to just Javelin! Taken away unique synergies and gave it everyone! That's all we have left! Toppling charge is so buggy no one even uses it! What is your problem Zenimax?

You're metrics are either terrible or you are simply ignoring the fact that Templars are THE worst designed class in video game history. A "Major Failure" buff applied on your part as a company to even let something like this pass by, especially as long as it has. I can't believe I even came back to this game hoping you would finally make things right. Templars suck.

If you want to complain about how bad templars are/how good wardens are, in your opinion, then do that in your own thread. This is not a QQ thread, and I don't want it to go off topic.

First of all, your topic includes which buffs are present and how they coincide with mitigation. My starting sentence, if you read, speaks about how wardens pretty much get all the defensive buffs making them much better suited for tanking than any other class. My statements after that are just reinforcing the fact that wardens have better mitigation before damage shield, which goes hand in hand with your post.

Second of all, I am not anywhere near going off topic (other than this post because I had to set you straight since you tried to call me out) because I am talking about what your thread is talking about, which is damage before mitigation.

Lastly, I don't know why you picked solely my comment to claim I was off topic when there are other comments before mine that aren't even talking about mitigation. Maybe its because I was comparing mitigation between 2 classes, on a thread that talks about mitigation...

Not in this thread.

WalksonGraves

Arbitrator wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

So let me get this right... the Warden is going to get:
Major maim, minor maim through frost damage, major protection, minor protection, and minor evasion.. all on top of minor toughness, and major mending? (This isn't all of their available buffs by the way...)

You've got to be kidding me. They've taken Major Mending away from the Templar and gave stuff to the Warden that the Templar should have had in the first place. The Warden is going to be the Best Tank and Healer by far.

Their heals are instant and they buff teammates up tremendously without even having set bonuses, unlike the Templar whose heals cost a *** ton and we've even got a garbage cast time heal when they get instants. All the Warden needs is a Major Evasion set from Spectres Eye or Hist Bark and they will be the best tank in the whole game. They get every single defensive buff there is except Major Evasion which is easy to acquire!

They can give their whole group Major and Minor Resolve with 1 ability! How is this even real? Zenimax do you not realize how damn bad the Templar is in comparison? The Templar sorely needs to be redesigned from the ground up. This just isn't right. It's not balanced at all. An mmo always has ups and downs with classes but the Templar has been the worst class since this game began! All because of their healing tree and your ridiculous vision for what a Templar is supposed to be. But lookout the Warden is more than viable in all 3 roles and excels in 2 out of 3 of those roles.

How can you sit back and agree that this is ok or fair? Plus you give them a spammable AoE immobilize that scales with max health! Templars have been begging for an AoE CC since you took Blinding Flashes away from us and you have constantly turned aside and given us nothing! It's not right! You've nerfed our single target CC down to just Javelin! Taken away unique synergies and gave it everyone! That's all we have left! Toppling charge is so buggy no one even uses it! What is your problem Zenimax?

You're metrics are either terrible or you are simply ignoring the fact that Templars are THE worst designed class in video game history. A "Major Failure" buff applied on your part as a company to even let something like this pass by, especially as long as it has. I can't believe I even came back to this game hoping you would finally make things right. Templars suck.

If you want to complain about how bad templars are/how good wardens are, in your opinion, then do that in your own thread. This is not a QQ thread, and I don't want it to go off topic.

First of all, your topic includes which buffs are present and how they coincide with mitigation. My starting sentence, if you read, speaks about how wardens pretty much get all the defensive buffs making them much better suited for tanking than any other class. My statements after that are just reinforcing the fact that wardens have better mitigation before damage shield, which goes hand in hand with your post.

Second of all, I am not anywhere near going off topic (other than this post because I had to set you straight since you tried to call me out) because I am talking about what your thread is talking about, which is damage before mitigation.

Lastly, I don't know why you picked solely my comment to claim I was off topic when there are other comments before mine that aren't even talking about mitigation. Maybe its because I was comparing mitigation between 2 classes, on a thread that talks about mitigation...

Exactly the thread is about mitigation, not your warden whine about how many buffs they get (which are mostly nothing to do with mitigation).
Start your own QQ thread.

techprince

paulsimonps wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Calculator is missing Infused Weakening Enchantment debuff and mending set (healing mage) debuff.

Sorry but I can't implement that without knowing how much of other stats and which ability it is that is damaging the player. They lower weapon damage/spell power, but for example in PvP when applied to another player it will lower damage in a different amount for each type of ability, not all abilities scale the same. And I would assume it would not be the same value for mob attacks either. Which is why I can't add it. If I had the people willing to help me with testing it more on mobs I would at least try it on the Vet Trial bosses, but as it is I will not be adding it.

According to my tests, damage done by normal monsters (all types of damage) was reduced by 36% by infused weakening alone. Need to test mending set and they both stack.

Was that test done with no other source of mitigation and comparing it to the monsters base damage with no mitigation at all?

No. I had 8% hardy/elemental defender and 20% in iron clad. Thats about it. But bosses have high weapon damage so on a wb i was able to reduce 11% inc damage. This is most likely to vary in trials.

paulsimonps

techprince wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Calculator is missing Infused Weakening Enchantment debuff and mending set (healing mage) debuff.

Sorry but I can't implement that without knowing how much of other stats and which ability it is that is damaging the player. They lower weapon damage/spell power, but for example in PvP when applied to another player it will lower damage in a different amount for each type of ability, not all abilities scale the same. And I would assume it would not be the same value for mob attacks either. Which is why I can't add it. If I had the people willing to help me with testing it more on mobs I would at least try it on the Vet Trial bosses, but as it is I will not be adding it.

According to my tests, damage done by normal monsters (all types of damage) was reduced by 36% by infused weakening alone. Need to test mending set and they both stack.

Was that test done with no other source of mitigation and comparing it to the monsters base damage with no mitigation at all?

No. I had 8% hardy/elemental defender and 20% in iron clad. Thats about it. But bosses have high weapon damage so on a wb i was able to reduce 11% inc damage. This is most likely to vary in trials.

I will try and do some testing later on PTS where I don't have to waste gold and mats. If it varies from mob to mob I would only try and check the Trial bosses but that will be hard to do considering few groups will want to go in there and let you die over and over for a few min while they just sit and wait.

Arbitrator

The thread maker himself was even comparing Dk talons to other skills! I made a post talking about how the Warden gets access to mostly all the mitigation buffs and now I'm having to defend myself when I was well within my rights?

*** that. Y'all just don't want to see Templars buffed is all it is. That's the problem now no one speaks up about the things that are wrong. I didn't get off topic one bit, I didn't even argue with anyone. I just got singled out cause someone doesn't like Templar.

I didn't come in this thread to disrupt it, I came in here to get insight on how Damage Mitigation was working for Morrowind,(which I appreciate the work that was done by the way). I'm the one that got called out (when I was on topic, my statements were just reinforcing the fact that wardens got all mitigation buffs compared to Templar and they even got Major Mending!).

You don't run the forums just because you make a thread. When you post you are open to public discussion. I did not bother you one bit I was just talking about exactly what the topic was talking about which was damage before/after mitigation, except my comments were comparing wardens damage before mitigation to the templars.

Minno wrote: »

Not in this thread.

I'm not trying to. Just defending myself from the onslaught.

ptthor

I was wondering what stacks and what does not stack
exp..
knigthmare minor maim and heroic slash minor maim making it a total of 30%

footmans amount of damage blocked and iron skin , sword and board , defensive stance , making total of 46%

would think it would be helpful to know what stacks and what does not for mitigation
im I wasting skill slots or gear pieces
not sure how to test this
im sure there are other stats that I don't have listed
is there a general rule on what stacks or doesnt

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

ptthor wrote: »

I was wondering what stacks and what does not stack
exp..
knigthmare minor maim and heroic slash minor maim making it a total of 30%

footmans amount of damage blocked and iron skin , sword and board , defensive stance , making total of 46%

would think it would be helpful to know what stacks and what does not for mitigation
im I wasting skill slots or gear pieces
not sure how to test this
im sure there are other stats that I don't have listed
is there a general rule on what stacks or doesnt

The same named debuffs do not stack, ie the minor maim from the two sources you stated.

ptthor

thank u
so from what u are saying all block amounts would stack
but debuffs do not

paulsimonps

ptthor wrote: »

thank u
so from what u are saying all block amounts would stack
but debuffs do not

Minor maims do not stack with other minor maims. Minor protection does not stack with other minor protection. This is the same for all minor and major buffs and debuffs in the entire game. Non minor or major buffs and debuffs or minor and major of different names stack with other buffs and debuffs but never with itself

ptthor

ok trying to understand
so if I have footman's and I slot defensive stance
I'm still only getting 8% and am wasting gear or skill spot

or im I getting 16% there not listed as a buff or debuff just a number value

paulsimonps

ptthor wrote: »

ok trying to understand
so if I have footman's and I slot defensive stance
I'm still only getting 8% and am wasting gear or skill spot

or im I getting 16% there not listed as a buff or debuff just a number value

You sir need to re read like the entire OP, its not the first of the two options you just gave but its not the 2nd either. Its lots more complicated than that and its all explained in the threads OP

ptthor

sorry I'm trying to figure it all out I have read it more then a couple of times
check out my link here tell me where im going wrong
https://jscalc.io/calc/fiasVNPSGsOdmsF6
sorry link didn't work

ptthor

Patrick Thorson‏ @Pyote45 · 32m32 minutes ago


 More

Damage Mitigation https://jscalc.io/calc/fiasVNPSGsOdmsF6#{"1":false,"2":false,"3":33100,"4":"1","5":false,"6":"1","7":true,"8":"2","9":false,"10":true,"11":10,"12":8,"13":0,"14":null,"16":false,"20":true,"21":"1","22":"1","23":true,"24":false,"25":true,"26":true,"27":true,"28":false,"31":0,"32":false,"33":false,"34":false,"38":13,"39":33100,"40":"6","41":0,"42":null,"43":0,"44":null,"45":null,"46":"1","47":"1","48":false,"49":false,"50":100,"51":false,"52":"6","53":"10","54":99480,"55":12524} …

that worked

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

ptthor wrote: »

ok trying to understand
so if I have footman's and I slot defensive stance
I'm still only getting 8% and am wasting gear or skill spot

or im I getting 16% there not listed as a buff or debuff just a number value

I was quite clear when I said named debuffs, also same with buffs, do not stack, the ones you named in this are not named, so they stack. It really couldn't be more simple.

ptthor

Thanks I do understand it now. Also thanks for not getting rude and judgmental about my question.

paulsimonps

So, finally got around to updating the Critical Resistance part a bit with the new values and the new set. Critical Resistance now also has its own list at the bottom of the OP that shows all of the different sources and their values. Also added a Resistance list at the bottom that I am still working on. This new list includes all of the values for CP 160 gear in terms of resistance, it shows all qualities and how they are in regular, reinforced and nirnhoned versions, this is to help people more in doing their mitigation testing by seeing how they can get different sources of resistance. Will add more to it very soon.

Soon 20k views on this thread too, which is amazing, great to see people sharing the knowledge. Also as always if you find anything in the OP that is wrong or missing let me know.

humpalicous

The math hurts my head... Or is it the children's music blasting? Can't tell, will have to evaluate later on

paulsimonps

Added Weapons, Skills and Major/Minor buffs to the resistance list. The Major/Minor buff list contains all the sources of the buffs, as well as links to pictures of the skills, morphs and other. That last bit took a long time

Sordidfairytale

This post is worth it's weight in gold!

WeylandLabs

The link at the bottom @paulsimonps will you be updated that as soon as HOTR comes out ? I like the simplicity of it also... easy to understand and a great test diy the calculations look spot on Great work !

paulsimonps

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

The link at the bottom @paulsimonps will you be updated that as soon as HOTR comes out ? I like the simplicity of it also... easy to understand and a great test diy the calculations look spot on Great work !

I've had a lot of stuff to deal with last month so not been able to test out more stuff and update the calculator but I will always do my best in that, its my favorite project in regards to ESO, that and my Buff/Debuff list. But I will try, at the same time I am updating my current calculator I am also wanting to do one with my own GUI, done some basic Java programing but it will probably take a while to do since I can't really decide how to do it and what to include. And each decision changes the layout, but hopefully it will come out. Tanking is my thing so this comes naturally in hand.

WeylandLabs

@paulsimonps ....

Id say try some things out on that calculator using your GUI that what make you feel comfortable with most. But in other programs its a basic new learning curve that takes a week or two to get use too. If so i'd give netbeans a shot...

idk

Actually not. There are players smarter than the average, I am average at best, and things like this come easy for them. Seems you spend a fair amount of time indoors even just looking for this thread.

A great many of us are thankful for the work players like @paulsimonps and @Asayre and others do that help us in our game. It is there thing and certainly amongst the more productive and worthwhile posts in these forums.

My guess is it comes down to some of us like clearing the most challenging content or understand what is available to use in PvP which information like what is here is most beneficial. Others have different interests and that is fine.

Edit: This comment pertained to a post that has been removed which is why it seems odd.

paulsimonps

idk wrote: »

Actually not. There are players smarter than the average, I am average at best, and things like this come easy for them. Seems you spend a fair amount of time indoors even just looking for this thread.

A great many of us are thankful for the work players like @paulsimonps and @Asayre and others do that help us in our game. It is there thing and certainly amongst the more productive and worthwhile posts in these forums.

My guess is it comes down to some of us like clearing the most challenging content or understand what is available to use in PvP which information like what is here is most beneficial. Others have different interests and that is fine.

Guess your comment seems a bit out of place now that mods came in But thanks for the comment @idk

kringled_1

The original post may be a bit older but this is still a valuable reference for those who enjoy the math/theory aspects to putting together skills and gear.

Joy_Division

@paulsimonps

I don't know if you are updating this thread or keeping track of damage mitigation mechanics. If you are, I have some questions regarding the Nord's rugged passive and how it interacts with other means of damage reduction, such as Battle Spirit.

If I am reading the formula correctly, BattleSpirit counts as a source of mitigation and since these are multiplicative, then my 6% damage reduction passive, which is supposed to be my crown jewel or a racial passive, goes down to 3% the moment I step foot in Cyrodiil, before any other forms of mitigation are being calculated.

And if the link you provided is updated and accurate, it also says my reduction goes down to 3% the moment I step into a PvP environment.

If this is true, and I can only hope it isn't, all I have to say is WTF and can the developers either separate PvP from PvE or at least stop screwing over us who play both?

To take this a step further. Let's say I'm a dumb PuG, because apparently I am, who just wants to play a Nord rather than be forced into a Meta build and PvPs with the following rather common setup:

10K Physical resist (after penetration).
9% from Hardy
15% from Ironclad
Opponent has minor maim (via Wizard's Riposte).

If I take a 11,000 tooltip from a Surprise Attack, according to the website's formula, I will take 3,123.3 damage as 71.6% was mitigated.

Now let's say I'm an intelligent meta chaser who plays an Argonian, with the same circumstances, I will take 3,322.685 as 69.8% was mitigated.

So being a Nord saved me a whopping total of 199 damage. That's not 6%. My racial bonus is giving me a grand total of 1.8% difference from every other race in the game. And I get that OP cold resist passive. What a joke.

Or is the formula / website wrong?

paulsimonps

Joy_Division wrote: »

@paulsimonps

I don't know if you are updating this thread or keeping track of damage mitigation mechanics. If you are, I have some questions regarding the Nord's rugged passive and how it interacts with other means of damage reduction, such as Battle Spirit.

If I am reading the formula correctly, BattleSpirit counts as a source of mitigation and since these are multiplicative, then my 6% damage reduction passive, which is supposed to be my crown jewel or a racial passive, goes down to 3% the moment I step foot in Cyrodiil, before any other forms of mitigation are being calculated.

And if the link you provided is updated and accurate, it also says my reduction goes down to 3% the moment I step into a PvP environment.

If this is true, and I can only hope it isn't, all I have to say is WTF and can the developers either separate PvP from PvE or at least stop screwing over us who play both?

To take this a step further. Let's say I'm a dumb PuG, because apparently I am, who just wants to play a Nord rather than be forced into a Meta build and PvPs with the following rather common setup:

10K Physical resist (after penetration).
9% from Hardy
15% from Ironclad
Opponent has minor maim (via Wizard's Riposte).

If I take a 11,000 tooltip from a Surprise Attack, according to the website's formula, I will take 3,123.3 damage as 71.6% was mitigated.

Now let's say I'm an intelligent meta chaser who plays an Argonian, with the same circumstances, I will take 3,322.685 as 69.8% was mitigated.

So being a Nord saved me a whopping total of 199 damage. That's not 6%. My racial bonus is giving me a grand total of 1.8% difference from every other race in the game. And I get that OP cold resist passive. What a joke.

Or is the formula / website wrong?

Everything in this thread except the resistance list is still accurate and what you said is basically right, its why the Nord passive is not even all that for PvE Tanks either, it has diminishing returns. But do remember that all damage is lowered by 50% in PvP so sometimes its not really helpful to count that in. And technically its still 6% mitigation, just 6% of what is left after other things have done their part. And yes Argonians got really strong passives, strong resistance for both special stamina damage types and immunity to their secondary effects. Nords have that for frost but that is not as common.

Elusiin

Wait so JUST 100 crit resistance is -24% on enemy player's critical damage?

Waffennacht

I

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

Wait so JUST 100 crit resistance is -24% on enemy player's critical damage?

68 impen = -1% crit damage

Elusiin

Waffennacht wrote: »

I

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

Wait so JUST 100 crit resistance is -24% on enemy player's critical damage?

66 impen = -1% crit damage

The guy who ran the numbers said, "This means that 100 points into Resistant gives you ~24% critical hit resistance."