LORE DISCUSSION: Argonians = Daedra

ShedsHisTail

I guess, in short, the difference in Argonian souls boils down to one simple aspect:

When other races die, their souls leave Nirn. They go to some manner of extra-planar afterlife, for good or ill.
Argonians do not, under normal circumstances, they return to the Hist.

That should be enough to deduce that Argonians are different from other races on a fundamental spiritual level.

LadyNalcarya

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Where are you getting this idea that I'm trying to say Argonians are better? Also, I don't recall ever using the world "mundane." If I did then I certainly could have phrased whatever I said better. It seems you're the one elevating Argonians, if only in effort to knock them back down.

I'm not trying to say Argonians are special, or better; just fundamentally different as is evident.

Khajiiti relations to the moon happens anywhere on Nirn and cannot be severed, as far as I know, and aren't even similar to the Argonian/Hist bond. A Khajiit's relation to the moons, is more akin to the action of the tides, than an actual spiritual/psychic bond. There are no Khajiit who are amorphous mutants in form because there was no moon to determine how they'd be born. I suppose it's possible something like this could happen to a Khajiit born in one of the Oblivion planes; but as far as I know we haven't seen that.

Bosmer being changed by a divine being isn't relevant because my whole point is that there is no divinity involved in the Argonian soul-recycling process. It's literally the opposite of what I'm saying. The Hist are not gods, yet they dictate everything about the Argonains. No other race is similarly subject to the whims of another being -on- Nirn.

And I'm not talking about anyone's "views" on the afterlife... I'm talking about the actual mechanical function of said afterlife. Argonians have no "afterlife," per se. The return to the Hist and are reborn. Everyone else goes somewhere to continue to exist elsewhere.


My only sources I can cite right now are anecdotal, personal experience and evidential extrapolation; similarly, I haven't seen you cite anywhere near as many sources as you've made definitive statements. I've been utterly transparent that much of what I'm saying is speculative.
There's very little written or understood about Argonian metaphysics.

Well, first of all, you have some very strong statement.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I meant to imply that Argonians are, in fact, a form of Daedra.

Speaking of Khajiits, once moons disappeared, and they were so terrified they joined 3rd Aldmeri Dominion because Thalmor claimed to restore them. And I wouldnt say that its like tides for them. They dont just aknowledge moon's influence to their lives, they do have spiritual bonds, as it's shown in Reaper's March quests. Arguing whose spiritual connections are stronger would be meaningless, but the fact that some argonians are born without these connections, means that they can be severed. Even daedra clans can choose to serve one daedric prince or another.
Well, Hist is some kind of powerful entity that argonians worship. Of course, theyre not one of 8 divines, but Y'ffre isnt either. Btw, Y'frre is one of Earth Bones, so he is "another being on Nirn".
And yes, its a fictional universe, but its people do have their views on different things. Argonians are not all-knowing even with all their spiritual experiences. They know that their souls belong to Hist, but they cant say that the same doesnt happen to others, maybe in different manner.

And one more thing... About "fundamentally different". Isnt a bosmer fundamentally different from, for example, redguard or khajiit? They dont have to be daedra to be different.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I guess, in short, the difference in Argonian souls boils down to one simple aspect:

When other races die, their souls leave Nirn. They go to some manner of extra-planar afterlife, for good or ill.
Argonians do not, under normal circumstances, they return to the Hist.

That should be enough to deduce that Argonians are different from other races on a fundamental spiritual level.

Well, no one knows what happens to those souls. There's a vague term in TES lore, called Dream-sleeve. Its mentioned only a couple of times, once in Infernal City and once in Mysterium Xarxes commentaries, but it implies a possibility for reincarnation for people of Nirn.
And in any case, with some magic any mortal can resurrect like daedra (examples - Mythic Dawn cultists in Paradise, our characters in ESO and all the soul-shriven). Catching souls is also a common practice, and Hist is much more powerful than human (or mer) mage...

ShedsHisTail

I feel like one or more of us isn't communicating well.
Because your replies are telling me you're not understanding what I'm saying.
So I'm gonna break this down.

Well, first of all, you have some very strong statement.

Yes. That' the thesis of this thread. That Argonians are closer to Daedra on a metaphysical level than other races. So close, in fact, that one might consider them a form of Daedra adapted to live on Nirn.

Speaking of Khajiits, once moons disappeared, and they were so terrified they joined 3rd Aldmeri Dominion because Thalmor claimed to restore them. And I wouldnt say that its like tides for them.

Being scared that the moons disappeared is not the same as what would happen should the Hist disappear. You're source, is cited at the top as being pieced together of anecdotal evidence; but let's assume that it's true.

For two years the moons disappeared. Khajiit were scared, because the moons are culturally important. But otherwise, things were fine. When I said the Khajiiti relationship to the moons was akin to the tides, I meant it in the sense that the moons have a physical affect on the way a Khajiit is born. Much the way the tides are physically influenced by the moons.

To illustrate the difference in these bonds; if the Hist were to disappear, Argonians would go collectively insane and their species could cease to exist (depending on how long the Hist remained gone). The Hist aren't simply culturally important, they're essential to the survival of the people. It goes beyond a simple spiritual connection. Argonians, as a species, are a part of the Hist, they are an extension of that consciousness, of that being. They cannot exist, as a species, without it.

Arguing whose spiritual connections are stronger would be meaningless, but the fact that some argonians are born without these connections, means that they can be severed.

A single Argonian has been documented as surviving to adulthood outside of the Hists influence, and he was Argonian only in appearance. Even reintroduced to the Hist he never quite adjusted. If the Hist were to disappear, we may be left with a race of biologically reptilian humanoids; but they wouldn't be Argonians.

Well, Hist is some kind of powerful entity that argonians worship.

Argonians do not worship the Hist. They tend them, they care for them and they honor them; but the Hist are not worshipped.

Of course, theyre not one of 8 divines, but Y'ffre isnt either. Btw, Y'frre is one of Earth Bones, so he is "another being on Nirn".

Do Bosmer return to Y'ffre when they die? Their bodies return to the earth, this much is true, but do their souls travel to the Earthbones? It was my understanding that their souls travel to Aetherius or the Dreamsleeve, or some other extra-planar realm like other mortal souls.

That said, I think your assertion that Y'ffre is "another ebing on Nirn" is relying a little too heavily on the semantics there. Y'ffre is very much a diety-figure which happens to reside in the ground.

And yes, its a fictional universe, but its people do have their views on different things.

Even in a fictional universe there is a difference between myth and actuality. There is the way people believe things to be, and there is the way things are.

Argonians are not all-knowing even with all their spiritual experiences. They know that their souls belong to Hist, but they cant say that the same doesnt happen to others, maybe in different manner.

Well, no one knows what happens to those souls. There's a vague term in TES lore, called Dream-sleeve. Its mentioned only a couple of times, once in Infernal City and once in Mysterium Xarxes commentaries, but it implies a possibility for reincarnation for people of Nirn

Argonians are not all-lnowing, this is true. Nor are the Hist. But Argonians know that they are part of the Hist, because the Hist tells them, because the Hist speaks to them and knows their memories and experiences. Through the Hist they can come to know the lives of their ancestors and experience the memories of those long gone. Argonians know they return to the Hist.

We, as players, have seen other afterlives. We've seen Sovngarde, a piece of Aetherius, so it's a safe bet to assume the other Aetherial realms (Far Shores, Ashen Froge, etc.) also exist. As you mentioned, there is some talk of the Dreamsleeve, but what exactly that is or who goes there or how it works is up for debate. What we -do- know, though, is that it is yet another extra-planar realm which Argonians do not go to. How do we know that?

Because Argonians return to the Hist.

About "fundamentally different". Isnt a bosmer fundamentally different from, for example, redguard or khajiit?

Physically, culturally, spiritually... Sure. But their souls are all made of the same, Anuic, stuff. What I'm postulating here is that, despite years of us (you and me, outside of the game) believing Argonian souls are also made of Anuic stuff, we are wrong and that Argonian souls are more akin to a daedric "vestige" (not to be confused with a capital V, Vestige).

Though, unlike daedra, when an Argonian is killed this vestige does not return to Oblivion, it returns to the Hist. Once upon a time, when the Hist had their own Realm (possibly in Oblivion) an Argonians soul would have returned to the Oblivion realm, just like any other daedra.

Upon their return, they are reformed in the egg from the Chaotic Creatia (ie: Hist Sap/Azure Plasm) and reborn.

Admittedly, the process is not as fast as it is with daedra being reborn in their home realms. But the Hist do not occupy their home realm; so the process is a little different; and, for some reason, the Hist chooses to retain the memories.

And in any case, with some magic any mortal can resurrect like daedra (examples - Mythic Dawn cultists in Paradise, our characters in ESO and all the soul-shriven). Catching souls is also a common practice, and Hist is much more powerful than human (or mer) mage...

True enough. Mortal and daedric souls alike appear to be subjectable to the same kinds of magic. I see no reason Argonian souls/vestiges would be any different.

Are you attempting to imply that the Hist are simply intercepting Argonian souls before they can reach Aetherius?

WhiteCoatSyndrome

I seem to recall that several varieties of mer don't actually go to an afterlife when they die, they stay on Nirn where their descendants can contact them. (Though that may be an option rather than the only option...but I expect that caveat applies to all races.) We have that quest where Queen Ayrenn goes to talk to her ancestors and the Dunmer have that special room set aside for theirs. (Here.) Not to mention all those quests in Stonefalls where we talk to Dunmeri spirits because we poked their tomb the right way.

Re: freeing an army of Soul-Shriven, I'm all for that but remember we'd need some way to re-attune them to Nirn if we wanted to bring them back. (I do wonder if we could attune them to their chosen afterlife instead...)

ShedsHisTail

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

I seem to recall that several varieties of mer don't actually go to an afterlife when they die, they stay on Nirn where their descendants can contact them. (Though that may be an option rather than the only option...but I expect that caveat applies to all races.) We have that quest where Queen Ayrenn goes to talk to her ancestors and the Dunmer have that special room set aside for theirs. (Here.) Not to mention all those quests in Stonefalls where we talk to Dunmeri spirits because we poked their tomb the...

There are numerous ways a soul can become "bound" but that's not the natural state.

Enodoc

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Khajiiti relations to the moon happens anywhere on Nirn and cannot be severed, as far as I know, and aren't even similar to the Argonian/Hist bond. A Khajiit's relation to the moons, is more akin to the action of the tides, than an actual spiritual/psychic bond. There are no Khajiit who are amorphous mutants in form because there was no moon to determine how they'd be born.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

For two years the moons disappeared. Khajiit were scared, because the moons are culturally important. But otherwise, things were fine. When I said the Khajiiti relationship to the moons was akin to the tides, I meant it in the sense that the moons have a physical affect on the way a Khajiit is born. Much the way the tides are physically influenced by the moons.

To illustrate the difference in these bonds; if the Hist were to disappear, Argonians would go collectively insane and their species could cease to exist (depending on how long the Hist remained gone).

On that - we know that the phase of the moon determines the form of the Khajiit. We don't really know what happened during the Void Nights; there were no moons, so how was the Khajiiti form determined without the determining factor? If the moons were to disappear permanently, ja-Kha'jay would be broken and the Lunar Lattice would fall apart. The Khajiit are intrinsically bound to the Lunar Lattice since Azura made it so, and without the Lunar Lattice, the Khajiit would similarly cease to exist.

Bosmer being changed by a divine being isn't relevant because my whole point is that there is no divinity involved in the Argonian soul-recycling process. It's literally the opposite of what I'm saying. The Hist are not gods, yet they dictate everything about the Argonains.

I would actually disagree with that. I would say the Hist are divine, or at least as divine as any of the other Aedra which gave themselves to form the laws of nature and became the Earthbones/Ehlnofey.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

The only race which has their "soul" imbued upon them by another being.

We don't know that for sure; we know that the Hist gives the Argonians their souls, but we don't know that the Earthbones don't imbue the souls of Mer and Men.

The only race to owe their very existence to a being which is present right there on Nirn; not some divine spirit figure.

The Ehlnofey are present right there on Nirn as well. You mention Y'ffre and semantics above, but just because the Hist have a physical form, doesn't mean they are less divine than the Ehlnofey. The Ehlnofey don't often have a physical form, but sometimes they do, and they're always present.

And I'm not talking about anyone's "views" on the afterlife... I'm talking about the actual mechanical function of said afterlife. Argonians have no "afterlife," per se. The return to the Hist and are reborn. Everyone else goes somewhere to continue to exist elsewhere.

The only race whose soul does -not- go to some other-worldy afterlife, but rather returns to said beings.
The only "mortal" race both aware and accepting of regular and assured reincarnation.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I guess, in short, the difference in Argonian souls boils down to one simple aspect:

When other races die, their souls leave Nirn. They go to some manner of extra-planar afterlife, for good or ill.
Argonians do not, under normal circumstances, they return to the Hist.

That should be enough to deduce that Argonians are different from other races on a fundamental spiritual level.

We, as players, have seen other afterlives. We've seen Sovngarde, a piece of Aetherius, so it's a safe bet to assume the other Aetherial realms (Far Shores, Ashen Froge, etc.) also exist. As you mentioned, there is some talk of the Dreamsleeve, but what exactly that is or who goes there or how it works is up for debate. What we -do- know, though, is that it is yet another extra-planar realm which Argonians do not go to. How do we know that?
Because Argonians return to the Hist.

These are all related to the afterlife and the Dreamsleeve, so I stuck them together. The first thing to consider is how much of a previous life do Argonians actually remember? I don't think they ever directly recollect a previous life, they are just taught about them by the Hist. This then puts Argonians in the same situation as other mortals - while they believe in reincarnation, just as the other races believe in an afterlife, they have no memory of their previous existence. This promotes the primary function of the Dreamsleeve - cleansing a soul of its memories to be imbued into another being as an animus. For Argonians, the memories that are cleansed from the soul are stored by the Hist; for everyone else, the memories are transported to the various afterlifes. These are intrinsically the same thing, with "returning to the Hist" being the Argonian equivalent of "travelling to Sovngarde" or "being carried to the Sands Beyond the Stars". Sovngarde has a physical interpretation; this much is known. We do not know whether there is a physical interpretation of "being one with the Hist". If there is, it could take the form of a river (Argonians go on about The River all the time); it could also be related to the so-called "Realm of the Hist", and as I said above, I don't think considering the Realm of the Hist as a plane of Oblivion does it justice. If it is in any way connected to the Argonians "returning to the Hist", and if it is indeed a remnant of one of the Twelve Worlds of Creation, it is much more likely to be a realm of Aetherius, or a slipstream plane of Mundus.


There's lots of differing views on the Dreamsleeve, so rather than posting a direct link, have a Google search instead. The Reddit one is pretty good: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=the+dreamsleeve+and+the+afterlife

Tipsy

Maybe Lamia are to Argonian,what Orsimer are to Mer

Thalmor-Nordmaster

Where and Whence they came is a good mystery!
But it goes without saying.
Argonians make the best Shoes and Handbags in all of Nirn!

LadyNalcarya

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I feel like one or more of us isn't communicating well.
Because your replies are telling me you're not understanding what I'm saying.
So I'm gonna break this down.

Well, first of all, you have some very strong statement.

Yes. That' the thesis of this thread. That Argonians are closer to Daedra on a metaphysical level than other races. So close, in fact, that one might consider them a form of Daedra adapted to live on Nirn.

How can they be a form of daedra if they have so many differences from them? Yeah, you can say that they're adapted and all, but its like saying that imperials are in fact mushrooms that imitate humans.

Speaking of Khajiits, once moons disappeared, and they were so terrified they joined 3rd Aldmeri Dominion because Thalmor claimed to restore them. And I wouldnt say that its like tides for them.

Being scared that the moons disappeared is not the same as what would happen should the Hist disappear. You're source, is cited at the top as being pieced together of anecdotal evidence; but let's assume that it's true.

For two years the moons disappeared. Khajiit were scared, because the moons are culturally important. But otherwise, things were fine. When I said the Khajiiti relationship to the moons was akin to the tides, I meant it in the sense that the moons have a physical affect on the way a Khajiit is born. Much the way the tides are physically influenced by the moons.

To illustrate the difference in these bonds; if the Hist were to disappear, Argonians would go collectively insane and their species could cease to exist (depending on how long the Hist remained gone). The Hist aren't simply culturally important, they're essential to the survival of the people. It goes beyond a simple spiritual connection. Argonians, as a species, are a part of the Hist, they are an extension of that consciousness, of that being. They cannot exist, as a species, without it.

What makes you think that khajiit relations to the moons is just a cultural thing? Regardless of their beliefs their physical shape is determined by moon cycle, who knows what would happen if there's no moons.
And you say that argonians cant exist as species without Hist, but later you're talking about an argonian who wasnt linked to Hist... Probably not the only one, there's plenty of argonians in Cyrodiil and in TES4 there's only one Hist tree, and its just exploited for its sap. And there's a lot of argonian slaves that never saw a Hist tree in ther life.
Its also interesting that there's a Hist tree in Coldharbour, which was drained by Molag Bal's minions and went comatose. Argonians in the town were alive and they stay alive even if you choose to end Hist's suffering.

Arguing whose spiritual connections are stronger would be meaningless, but the fact that some argonians are born without these connections, means that they can be severed.

A single Argonian has been documented as surviving to adulthood outside of the Hists influence, and he was Argonian only in appearance. Even reintroduced to the Hist he never quite adjusted. If the Hist were to disappear, we may be left with a race of biologically reptilian humanoids; but they wouldn't be Argonians.

Well, if argonians would be daedra, they would've kept their immortality and memory without their masters. There's a lot of Oblivion planes, not every one of them has a prince, and daedra are still being daedra.
Also we dont know where the soul of this argonian you've mentioned would go and will Hist be able to manipulate it.

Well, Hist is some kind of powerful entity that argonians worship.

Argonians do not worship the Hist. They tend them, they care for them and they honor them; but the Hist are not worshipped.

Of course, theyre not one of 8 divines, but Y'ffre isnt either. Btw, Y'frre is one of Earth Bones, so he is "another being on Nirn".

Do Bosmer return to Y'ffre when they die? Their bodies return to the earth, this much is true, but do their souls travel to the Earthbones? It was my understanding that their souls travel to Aetherius or the Dreamsleeve, or some other extra-planar realm like other mortal souls.

Thats not clear, but apparently there's a lot of afterlife options. If I remember correctly, only the fate of those bosmer who broke Green pact is known: they're banished to Ooze.

That said, I think your assertion that Y'ffre is "another ebing on Nirn" is relying a little too heavily on the semantics there. Y'ffre is very much a diety-figure which happens to reside in the ground.

Hist is also a deity-figure of sorts. Its not like some regular tree can posses powers over souls and store memories of many generations.

And yes, its a fictional universe, but its people do have their views on different things.

Even in a fictional universe there is a difference between myth and actuality. There is the way people believe things to be, and there is the way things are.

True, but most of information about Hist comes from argonians themselves. Their souls and minds belong to it, and its not exaclty a detached opinion. Hist is a sentient being, it can technically indoctrinate argonians as it wants. I'm not saying it does - but it can.
And I dont think that any argonian has a strong spiritual connection and remembers his or her past lives. At least, I dont remember this from the games. If I'm wrong, please post some proofs.

Argonians are not all-lnowing, this is true. Nor are the Hist. But Argonians know that they are part of the Hist, because the Hist tells them, because the Hist speaks to them and knows their memories and experiences. Through the Hist they can come to know the lives of their ancestors and experience the memories of those long gone. Argonians know they return to the Hist.

We, as players, have seen other afterlives. We've seen Sovngarde, a piece of Aetherius, so it's a safe bet to assume the other Aetherial realms (Far Shores, Ashen Froge, etc.) also exist. As you mentioned, there is some talk of the Dreamsleeve, but what exactly that is or who goes there or how it works is up for debate. What we -do- know, though, is that it is yet another extra-planar realm which Argonians do not go to. How do we know that?

Because Argonians return to the Hist.

We dont know that other races do not reincarnate, and they dont have an access to memory bank.
Speaking of which, yes, Hist seems to store memories and experiences. But do the argonians have those memories without interacting with Hist? Will an argonian that never interacted with Hist know that he even had any past incarnations? So far it seems that this "daedric" trait is just something given by Hist. But daedric immortality is innate, and fire atronachs of Infernace (that doesnt have a ruler) ressurect just like Mehrunes' dremoras.

About "fundamentally different". Isnt a bosmer fundamentally different from, for example, redguard or khajiit?

Physically, culturally, spiritually... Sure. But their souls are all made of the same, Anuic, stuff. What I'm postulating here is that, despite years of us (you and me, outside of the game) believing Argonian souls are also made of Anuic stuff, we are wrong and that Argonian souls are more akin to a daedric "vestige" (not to be confused with a capital V, Vestige).

But why do they have to rely on Hist in that case? They need Hist to be more than just "lizard humanoids", daedra dont need a master to be daedra.

Upon their return, they are reformed in the egg from the Chaotic Creatia (ie: Hist Sap/Azure Plasm) and reborn.

Its really far-fetched to make Hist sap a part of creatia. Is there anything in game that would imply it, except "plasm" part in Amber plasm and Azure plasm. As I said, there's also ectoplasm.

Admittedly, the process is not as fast as it is with daedra being reborn in their home realms. But the Hist do not occupy their home realm; so the process is a little different; and, for some reason, the Hist chooses to retain the memories.

Its not a little different. Its fundamentally different.
Of course, you will say that "argonians just adapted', but then again, its like saying that imperials are mushrooms, they've just adapted to look like humans.

And in any case, with some magic any mortal can resurrect like daedra (examples - Mythic Dawn cultists in Paradise, our characters in ESO and all the soul-shriven). Catching souls is also a common practice, and Hist is much more powerful than human (or mer) mage...

True enough. Mortal and daedric souls alike appear to be subjectable to the same kinds of magic. I see no reason Argonian souls/vestiges would be any different.

Are you attempting to imply that the Hist are simply intercepting Argonian souls before they can reach Aetherius?

I'm not implying anything. I'm just pointing out that you see Hist from argonian perspective, and theyre devoted to it. You said its not worship, but in my book it does look like worship.
And manipulations with souls are not unheard of.

elias.stormneb18_ESO

No, if you took the time to actually study what is said and written about the Saxhleel and the Hist in-game you would see why that doesn't make much sense.

nimander99

There are instances of Agonian's being born separate from the Hist so we can assume the Hist is not actually necessary to the continuation of Argonian life. The Hist itself is a sentient tree being that directly effects an entire clan of Argonian's that are telepathically connected to it, the Hist produces Amberplasm in at least on case that we now know of.

So, doesn't that make it more likely that the Hist is a creature from Oblivion than the Lizards who have enslaved themselves to the Hist Trees?

ShedsHisTail

nimander99 wrote: »

There are instances of Agonian's being born separate from the Hist so we can assume the Hist is not actually necessary to the continuation of Argonian life. The Hist itself is a sentient tree being that directly effects an entire clan of Argonian's that are telepathically connected to it, the Hist produces Amberplasm in at least on case that we now know of.

So, doesn't that make it more likely that the Hist is a creature from Oblivion than the Lizards who have enslaved themselves to the Hist Trees?

I'm making a separation in my terminology regarding Argonians born with the Hist and those without.

As I said before, there's only one documented Argonian that has survivied to adulthood without the Hist's influence, an he was very much unlike other Argonians. Biologically, he was the same, but without the Hist, he was very different. To me, an Argonian without the Hist is just a lizard man.

That said, I'm not abandoning this theory entirely, but I'm willing to concede it at this time until more information is available.

Thanks all for a fun conversation.

Now, let's start a new thread about something else!

MORE LORE TALK

dodgehopper_ESO

Tipsy wrote: »

Maybe Lamia are to Argonian,what Orsimer are to Mer

I wonder if Lamia are in fact the Akaviri snake-people...

ShedsHisTail

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tipsy wrote: »

Maybe Lamia are to Argonian,what Orsimer are to Mer

I wonder if Lamia are in fact the Akaviri snake-people...

I've always thought of the various beast-races of the Akaviri to be a sort of embellishment. Like, they aren't -actually- beast-races, but rather use beasts in their symbolism and that gets mistranslated into the stories about them.

Like how in Game of Thrones the Lannisters are referred to as Lions, the Starks as Wolves, etc. Same idea. That there are Akaviri "clans" or kingdoms which use different animal symbolism.

Eporem

From the Argonian quests in ESO, maybe a little more is told:

The Hist Sap takes memories, and the Mnemic Egg holds the memories of the Hist.

*I originally thought that AmberPlasm might be altered Hist Sap, though after looking up the meanings of Amber, Resin, and Plasm, I now think that Amber Plasm might be what the Hist produces when it is injured.

The Hist of Shadowfen as well seems to be able to ‘cut out of itself’ memories or fears it does not like and..

Whole bodies of the Argonians slain must be returned to the Hist, if not whole then it is said their angry spirits will linger.







*Edit: wanted to add to this the definitions:

Amber: Amber is fossilized tree resin (not sap), which has been appreciated for its color and natural beauty since Neolithic times.
Resin: sticky flammable organic substance, insoluble in water, exuded by some trees and other plants
Plasma: the colorless fluid part of blood, lymph, or milk,

Tipsy

Not much on the lore page either
uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lamia
But one things confirms they might be family of the Argonian
"
They seemingly have their own religion, venerating entities known as the Egg Mother and the Great Egg.[2]
"

Argonians venerate the hist and the Mnemic egg...So they seem to have similarities

LadyNalcarya

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tipsy wrote: »

Maybe Lamia are to Argonian,what Orsimer are to Mer

I wonder if Lamia are in fact the Akaviri snake-people...

I've always thought of the various beast-races of the Akaviri to be a sort of embellishment. Like, they aren't -actually- beast-races, but rather use beasts in their symbolism and that gets mistranslated into the stories about them.

Like how in Game of Thrones the Lannisters are referred to as Lions, the Starks as Wolves, etc. Same idea. That there are Akaviri "clans" or kingdoms which use different animal symbolism.

Well, they were never depicted in games, but there's some info from an ingame book:

No one in the crowd, aside from a few scattered Akaviri counselors and the Potentate himself wanted Savirien-Chorak to win, but there was a collective intake of breath at the sight of his graceful movements. His swords seemed to be a part of him, a tail coming from his arms to match the one behind him. It was a trick of counterbalance, allowing the young serpent man to roll up into a circle and spin into the center of the ring in offensive position. The Prince had to plod forward the less impressive traditional way.

This is a fiction book though.

Tipsy wrote: »

Not much on the lore page either
uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lamia
But one things confirms they might be family of the Argonian
"
They seemingly have their own religion, venerating entities known as the Egg Mother and the Great Egg.[2]
"

Argonians venerate the hist and the Mnemic egg...So they seem to have similarities

Oh, thats interesting. I hope there will be more info about them in Murkmire dlc...

LadyNalcarya

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

There are instances of Agonian's being born separate from the Hist so we can assume the Hist is not actually necessary to the continuation of Argonian life. The Hist itself is a sentient tree being that directly effects an entire clan of Argonian's that are telepathically connected to it, the Hist produces Amberplasm in at least on case that we now know of.

So, doesn't that make it more likely that the Hist is a creature from Oblivion than the Lizards who have enslaved themselves to the Hist Trees?

I'm making a separation in my terminology regarding Argonians born with the Hist and those without.

As I said before, there's only one documented Argonian that has survivied to adulthood without the Hist's influence, an he was very much unlike other Argonians. Biologically, he was the same, but without the Hist, he was very different. To me, an Argonian without the Hist is just a lizard man.

That said, I'm not abandoning this theory entirely, but I'm willing to concede it at this time until more information is available.

Thanks all for a fun conversation.

Now, let's start a new thread about something else!

MORE LORE TALK

Well, I dont remember argonian slaves in Morrowind being able to interact with Hist... And there are city argonians in TES4.

ShedsHisTail

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

There are instances of Agonian's being born separate from the Hist so we can assume the Hist is not actually necessary to the continuation of Argonian life. The Hist itself is a sentient tree being that directly effects an entire clan of Argonian's that are telepathically connected to it, the Hist produces Amberplasm in at least on case that we now know of.

So, doesn't that make it more likely that the Hist is a creature from Oblivion than the Lizards who have enslaved themselves to the Hist Trees?

I'm making a separation in my terminology regarding Argonians born with the Hist and those without.

As I said before, there's only one documented Argonian that has survivied to adulthood without the Hist's influence, an he was very much unlike other Argonians. Biologically, he was the same, but without the Hist, he was very different. To me, an Argonian without the Hist is just a lizard man.

That said, I'm not abandoning this theory entirely, but I'm willing to concede it at this time until more information is available.

Thanks all for a fun conversation.

Now, let's start a new thread about something else!

MORE LORE TALK

Well, I dont remember argonian slaves in Morrowind being able to interact with Hist... And there are city argonians in TES4.

Most slaves in Morrowind are born in Blackmarsh, and taken away by slavers. I don't think they breed Argonians on plantations; that's just bad business. A baby slave is just an expense, it can't work, it just sits there and eats. I'd imagine breeding is discouraged.

In fact, Argonians in general are typically born in Blackmarsh and move elsewhere.

Argonians born under the Hist's influence can leave the proximity of the Hist no problem, they don't lose the link, the influence just becomes weaker.
Being -born- away from the hist is a whole other ball of wax.