LORE DISCUSSION: Argonians = Daedra

ShedsHisTail

Argonians are to Nirn as Daedra are to Oblivion.

It's a theory I've sort of been working on for a while. There are a number of parallels between the Argonians of Nirn and the Daedra of Oblivion. But the basis of the theory builds very much on the way Argonians relate to the Hist; most notably that they are born of the Hist and when they die they return to the Hist.

Much the same way that Daedra, when killed, return to Oblivion; or more specifically, as noted in a book found in Coldharbor, to the Azureplasm. A sort of fluid which is the energy and essence of life for Daedra. http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Azure_Plasm It's noted that Chaotic Creatia takes on a planar-appropriate form in all realms of Oblivion.

I think these parallels are only further reinforced when we consider the presence of Amberplasm in the new Argonian dungeon, which appears to be a produt of the Hist. We also know that the Hist, or being very much like them, exist in other planes of Oblivion (ie: Umbriel). Could this "Amberplasm" be the planar-appropriate form of Chaotic Creatia on Nirn? The life essence to which Argonians return to upon death, only to be reborn later of the Hist?

Is Nirn but one more realm of Oblivion and are Argonians our Nirnic Daedra?

Discuss.

Slurg

Oh, is that why I felt such a strong urge to put the Maw of the Infernal helm on my Argonian even though it's not the best set out there? I thought it was just because it kept showing up at the vendor.

Your explanation sounds better though. I think I'll go with that.

DenMoria

Weren't Argo's genetically engineered by their sentient tree overlords? I would think that the trees would be the daedra.

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

What is the difference between Nirn (mortal realm) and realms of oblivion? I'd say they are one and the same, except Nirn was created collectively on a much larger scale.

The hist came from a realm of oblivion, they were created by a daedric lord so in a way yes, both the hist and Argonians are daedra. But in the end all beings in TES universe are a creation of Aedra or Daedra (both the same = Et'Ada) so all could be called daedra.

It's just a matter of terminology.

MasterSpatula

Nirn a realm of Oblivion? Have you been listening to Mankar Camoran again?

ShedsHisTail

DenMoria wrote: »

Weren't Argo's genetically engineered by their sentient tree overlords? I would think that the trees would be the daedra.

Well, we know Daedra can take on many forms. The Hist may be a sort of major-Daedra with Argonians being a minor-Daedra akin to Dremora.

Incidentally, this theory also implies a Daedric Prince which lords over the realm of Nirn.

Ffastyl

Argonians are hatched from eggs, which is a point to address in your hypothesis. I am not versed enough in Argonian biology to tell if the eggs are born of Argonians or the Hist, but I can tell they are incubated near the Hist. If Argonians are daedra, then they do not follow the same rules as dremora in rebirth, but then when are daedra consistent?

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Is Nirn but one more realm of Oblivion?

Nirn is in the mortal plane of Oblivion, known as Mundus. Nirn seems to encompass all of Mundus, so the terms are generally synonymous. However Mundus and Nirn are not the same. Somehow. That distinction is still unclear to this scholar.

ShedsHisTail

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

What is the difference between Nirn (mortal realm) and realms of oblivion? I'd say they are one and the same, except Nirn was created collectively on a much larger scale.

The hist came from a realm of oblivion, they were created by a daedric lord so in a way yes, both the hist and Argonians are daedra. But in the end all beings in TES universe are a creation of Aedra or Daedra (both the same = Et'Ada) so all could be called daedra.

It's just a matter of terminology.

You are referring to Sithis?
or someone else?

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

Weren't Argo's genetically engineered by their sentient tree overlords? I would think that the trees would be the daedra.

Well, we know Daedra can take on many forms. The Hist may be a sort of major-Daedra with Argonians being a minor-Daedra akin to Dremora.

Incidentally, this theory also implies a Daedric Prince which lords over the realm of Nirn.

There are several, ever heard of the eight Aedra? They are the same as Daedra (translated as "not our ancestors"), except they are Called Aedra (our ancestors) because they created Nirn.

ShedsHisTail

Ffastyl wrote: »

Argonians are hatched from eggs, which is a point to address in your hypothesis. I am not versed enough in Argonian biology to tell if the eggs are born of Argonians or the Hist, but I can tell they are incubated near the Hist. If Argonians are daedra, then they do not follow the same rules as dremora in rebirth, but then when are daedra consistent?

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Is Nirn but one more realm of Oblivion?

Nirn is in the mortal plane of Oblivion, known as Mundus. Nirn seems to encompass all of Mundus, so the terms are generally synonymous. However Mundus and Nirn are not the same. Somehow. That distinction is still unclear to this scholar.

The egg could simply be the vessel wherein the Chaotic Creatia accretes upon the vestige.
While the exact mechanism may not be identical, the end result is the same. Some Argonians even claim to possess knowledge of past incarnations, and Argonian culture ten to ignore the passage of time, implying an implicit belief that their existence is eternal.

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

What is the difference between Nirn (mortal realm) and realms of oblivion? I'd say they are one and the same, except Nirn was created collectively on a much larger scale.

The hist came from a realm of oblivion, they were created by a daedric lord so in a way yes, both the hist and Argonians are daedra. But in the end all beings in TES universe are a creation of Aedra or Daedra (both the same = Et'Ada) so all could be called daedra.

It's just a matter of terminology.

You are referring to Sithis?
or someone else?

Either Sithis or Clavicus Vile, no-one knows.

Ffastyl

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

But in the end all beings in TES universe are a creation of Aedra or Daedra (both the same = Et'Ada) so all could be called daedra.

It's just a matter of terminology.

Daedra is elvish for "not our ancestors" and Aedra is "our ancestors." The two terms are not interchangeable and cannot be used to reference the inhabitants of Nirn.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Incidentally, this theory also implies a Daedric Prince which lords over the realm of Nirn.

The "Prince" of Mundus are the Eight Divines: Akatosh, Stendarr, Julianos, Mara, Zenithar, Dibella, Arkay and Kynareth. These Eight Et'Ada gave up their immortal status to create Nirn and mortals, gifting our plane with the coveted spark of creation. The daedra lack the ability to create, so they seek and imitate mortals.

ShedsHisTail

Ffastyl wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

But in the end all beings in TES universe are a creation of Aedra or Daedra (both the same = Et'Ada) so all could be called daedra.

It's just a matter of terminology.

Daedra is elvish for "not our ancestors" and Aedra is "our ancestors." The two terms are not interchangeable and cannot be used to reference the inhabitants of Nirn.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Incidentally, this theory also implies a Daedric Prince which lords over the realm of Nirn.

The "Prince" of Mundus are the Eight Divines: Akatosh, Stendarr, Julianos, Mara, Zenithar, Dibella, Arkay and Kynareth. These Eight Et'Ada gave up their immortal status to create Nirn and mortals, gifting our plane with the coveted spark of creation. The daedra lack the ability to create, so they seek and imitate mortals.

So then, the Hist are Daedric invaders?
And Argonians and race of, for lack of a better term, ancient aliens?

Note that infinite regeneration and eternal existence are not creation, but rather sustained permanence. This fits into the Daedra template.

Ffastyl

Argonians seem a little off from Dremora in behavior and constitution. The Hist do stem from Sithis, so Argonians do have Daedra in the lineage, but of all the things I know of Dremora and all the things I know of Argonians, they don't quite match up. Namely in the retention of past lives and the ability to create.

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

Ffastyl wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

But in the end all beings in TES universe are a creation of Aedra or Daedra (both the same = Et'Ada) so all could be called daedra.

It's just a matter of terminology.

Daedra is elvish for "not our ancestors" and Aedra is "our ancestors." The two terms are not interchangeable and cannot be used to reference the inhabitants of Nirn.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Incidentally, this theory also implies a Daedric Prince which lords over the realm of Nirn.

The "Prince" of Mundus are the Eight Divines: Akatosh, Stendarr, Julianos, Mara, Zenithar, Dibella, Arkay and Kynareth. These Eight Et'Ada gave up their immortal status to create Nirn and mortals, gifting our plane with the coveted spark of creation. The daedra lack the ability to create, so they seek and imitate mortals.

Both Daedra and Aedra are one species, both are Et'Ada, that's my point. The only difference is how they were named by mortal races later on. No idea where you got the idea that Daedra cannot create as they posses the same powers as Aedra once did, except the Aedra used almost all their power to create Nirn while Daedra refused to contribute so they maintained all their original power.

Since Argonians were created by the hist who were created by the daedra, they can be called daedra. (all creatures the daedric princes create are called daedra, be it lesser or otherwise)

ShedsHisTail

Ffastyl wrote: »

Argonians seem a little off from Dremora in behavior and constitution. The Hist do stem from Sithis, so Argonians do have Daedra in the lineage, but of all the things I know of Dremora and all the things I know of Argonians, they don't quite match up. Namely in the retention of past lives and the ability to create.

For instance?
Given, the temperament is quite different. I would refer to them as a docile Daedra. But that's cultural and could simply be a necessary adaptation to living on a realm populated by so many non-Daedric races. We've seen other Daedra which haven't existed on Nirn for thousands of years, learn to play nice to suit their own ends.

What were you thinking though?

Legoless

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

Calling Nirn a realm of Oblivion is a horrible oversimplification though. Don't do that.

ShedsHisTail

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

But in the end all beings in TES universe are a creation of Aedra or Daedra (both the same = Et'Ada) so all could be called daedra.

It's just a matter of terminology.

Daedra is elvish for "not our ancestors" and Aedra is "our ancestors." The two terms are not interchangeable and cannot be used to reference the inhabitants of Nirn.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Incidentally, this theory also implies a Daedric Prince which lords over the realm of Nirn.

The "Prince" of Mundus are the Eight Divines: Akatosh, Stendarr, Julianos, Mara, Zenithar, Dibella, Arkay and Kynareth. These Eight Et'Ada gave up their immortal status to create Nirn and mortals, gifting our plane with the coveted spark of creation. The daedra lack the ability to create, so they seek and imitate mortals.

Both Daedra and Aedra are one species, both are Et'Ada, that's my point. The only difference is how they were named by mortal races later on. No idea where you got the idea that Daedra cannot create as they posses the same powers as Aedra once did, except the Aedra used almost all their power to create Nirn while Daedra refused to contribute so they maintained all their original power.

Since Argonians were created by the hist who were created by the daedra, they can be called daedra. (all creatures the daedric princes create are called daedra, be it lesser or otherwise)

By that logic, all races are Daedra, since Aedra and Daedra are the same thing.
I think we need to draw some lines somewhere.

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

Legoless wrote: »

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

Calling Nirn a realm of Oblivion is a horrible oversimplification though. Don't do that.

But that's what it is, it's a more sophisticated realm of oblivion. Just as a calculator is a simple computer.

ShedsHisTail

Legoless wrote: »

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

Calling Nirn a realm of Oblivion is a horrible oversimplification though. Don't do that.

Well, if we accept that the Hist are non-native to Nirn, we can throw out the idea of Nirn as another plane of Oblivion.
And if the Hist are a product of Clavicus Vile's realm, why is Sithis so apparent and influential in Argonian society and Clavicus Vile largely ignored? They don't seem to acknowledge one another in any but tangential terms.

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Legoless wrote: »

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

Calling Nirn a realm of Oblivion is a horrible oversimplification though. Don't do that.

Well, if we accept that the Hist are non-native to Nirn, we can throw out the idea of Nirn as another plane of Oblivion.

How's that? Your conclusion makes no sense as planes of oblivion are akin to parallel universes. There's not just one plane of oblivion.

ShedsHisTail

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Legoless wrote: »

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

Calling Nirn a realm of Oblivion is a horrible oversimplification though. Don't do that.

Well, if we accept that the Hist are non-native to Nirn, we can throw out the idea of Nirn as another plane of Oblivion.

How's that? Your conclusion makes no sense as planes of oblivion are akin to parallel universes. There's not just one plane of oblivion.

It was in reply to your statement that calling Nirn a plane of Oblivion is an over simplification.
It either is or isn't, it doesn't matter how complex that description is. So which context are we working from?

Is Nirn a plane of Oblivion? Or no?

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Legoless wrote: »

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

Calling Nirn a realm of Oblivion is a horrible oversimplification though. Don't do that.

Well, if we accept that the Hist are non-native to Nirn, we can throw out the idea of Nirn as another plane of Oblivion.

How's that? Your conclusion makes no sense as planes of oblivion are akin to parallel universes. There's not just one plane of oblivion.

It was in reply to your statement that calling Nirn a plane of Oblivion is an over simplification.
It either is or isn't, it doesn't matter how complex that description is. So which context are we working from?

Is Nirn a plane of Oblivion? Or no?

You're confusing me with Legoless ^^

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Ffastyl wrote: »

Argonians seem a little off from Dremora in behavior and constitution. The Hist do stem from Sithis, so Argonians do have Daedra in the lineage, but of all the things I know of Dremora and all the things I know of Argonians, they don't quite match up. Namely in the retention of past lives and the ability to create.

@Ffastyl how do you get Daedra in the lineage from Sithis? He's associated with Lorkhan.

ShedsHisTail

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Legoless wrote: »

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

Calling Nirn a realm of Oblivion is a horrible oversimplification though. Don't do that.

Well, if we accept that the Hist are non-native to Nirn, we can throw out the idea of Nirn as another plane of Oblivion.

How's that? Your conclusion makes no sense as planes of oblivion are akin to parallel universes. There's not just one plane of oblivion.

It was in reply to your statement that calling Nirn a plane of Oblivion is an over simplification.
It either is or isn't, it doesn't matter how complex that description is. So which context are we working from?

Is Nirn a plane of Oblivion? Or no?

You're confusing me with Legoless ^^

Yes I am.

I guess, my line of thinking (with that statement) is that if we're going to divide realms down Aedric and Daedric lines, then Oblivion would consist of the various Daedric realms... Coldharbor and such. Nirn, being a product of Aedric intervention/creation would exist outside of that... As something else.

So if we assume that the Hist are Daedric invaders (refugees?) from Oblivion, then there's no reason to assume that Nirn must be -part- of Oblivion in order to house the (apparently) Daedric Hist... Since they're non-native.

I was just reconciling things so we could get back to the original theory regarding the nature of Argonians.

ShedsHisTail

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

Argonians seem a little off from Dremora in behavior and constitution. The Hist do stem from Sithis, so Argonians do have Daedra in the lineage, but of all the things I know of Dremora and all the things I know of Argonians, they don't quite match up. Namely in the retention of past lives and the ability to create.

@Ffastyl how do you get Daedra in the lineage from Sithis? He's associated with Lorkhan.

Which is interesting, because the it's believed the Hist attribute their creation to Sithis.
Not one of the Daedric princes; hence the reverence.

SlappyThePoptart

Nirn is not a plane of Oblivion. Oblivion was created by the Daedra, Nirn was made by the Aedra. However, I like the idea. I always thought mortals were the Aedric counter to the Lesser Daedra, because they are descended from the Et-Ada and return to Aetherius when they die (unless a Daedra claims their soul lol).

dodgehopper_ESO

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

Weren't Argo's genetically engineered by their sentient tree overlords? I would think that the trees would be the daedra.

Well, we know Daedra can take on many forms. The Hist may be a sort of major-Daedra with Argonians being a minor-Daedra akin to Dremora.

Incidentally, this theory also implies a Daedric Prince which lords over the realm of Nirn.

There are several, ever heard of the eight Aedra? They are the same as Daedra (translated as "not our ancestors"), except they are Called Aedra (our ancestors) because they created Nirn.

Aedra are at least defined another way as the result of the blood splatter admixture of Anu an Padomay fighting it out mano e mano in the multiverse. I've always felt there's something very Daedra-like about Elves to be honest. Those pointy ears, those beady red eyes, particularly the Dunmer and some Bosmer. I'm not sure about it but it seems to me there is at least some daedric influence on their heritage. This is just a gut feeling but its my gut feeling, which I feel is slightly boosted by the fact that ancient Chimer considered Boethiah, Mephala, and Azura as their ancestors or 'their et'Ada'. The Orcs likewise view Ashpit as the Orcish version of Sovngarde, and it is ruled over by Malacath, a Daedric Lord, interestingly also considered to be the transformed Trinimac who was arguably an Aedra. I've got a gut feeling as well that Auriel and Shor are actually two sides of the same coin and as Aedra they are not as such purely Anuic or Padomaic in nature (Which also explains some of the aedra's vile faults). Akatosh is really the syncretization of Auriel an Shor (bird and snake as one in the form of a dragon).

Its my understanding that Argonians and the hist found their world getting wrapped up in the creation of Nirn, and got shoved into it forceably upon its creation. I'm not going to cite all my sources, and some of it is based on conjecture. My insults toward elves are meant jokingly, don't freak out. Humans meanwhile were wandering the stars and stumbled their way back to Nirn, unwanted by their cousins the elves, and later enslaved by them. Its really difficult to pick out what is supposed to be 'fact' in the Elder Scrolls universe though. What is Sithis exactly for instance? What is Julianos? What is Meridia? What is Akatosh? You never really get a good opportunity for deep definitions, merely a sense of what these things are. What are the Far Shores? What is Ashpit? What is Sovngarde? the Hunting Grounds, etc. We know for instance that the Far Shores are at crossed paths with Daedra, but what does that mean? Does that apply to Sovngarde? What does the Ashpit mean to an orc exactly?

This topic raises more questions that I have about the series than offers any answers.

ShedsHisTail

SlappyThePoptart wrote: »

Nirn is not a plane of Oblivion. Oblivion was created by the Daedra, Nirn was made by the Aedra. However, I like the idea. I always thought mortals were the Aedric counter to the Lesser Daedra, because they are descended from the Et-Ada and return to Aetherius when they die (unless a Daedra claims their soul lol).

See, I think you and I might be on the same page.

We know the Hist are non-native to Nirn. Their own realm was destroyed which would make them, in effect, refugees of the Ehlnofey wars. I think that they are, through the creation of Argonians for manual labor and defense effectively terraforming a section of Nirn (Blackmarsh) to suit their needs.

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Legoless wrote: »

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

Calling Nirn a realm of Oblivion is a horrible oversimplification though. Don't do that.

Well, if we accept that the Hist are non-native to Nirn, we can throw out the idea of Nirn as another plane of Oblivion.

How's that? Your conclusion makes no sense as planes of oblivion are akin to parallel universes. There's not just one plane of oblivion.

It was in reply to your statement that calling Nirn a plane of Oblivion is an over simplification.
It either is or isn't, it doesn't matter how complex that description is. So which context are we working from?

Is Nirn a plane of Oblivion? Or no?

You're confusing me with Legoless ^^

Yes I am.

I guess, my line of thinking (with that statement) is that if we're going to divide realms down Aedric and Daedric lines, then Oblivion would consist of the various Daedric realms... Coldharbor and such. Nirn, being a product of Aedric intervention/creation would exist outside of that... As something else.

So if we assume that the Hist are Daedric invaders (refugees?) from Oblivion, then there's no reason to assume that Nirn must be -part- of Oblivion in order to house the (apparently) Daedric Hist... Since they're non-native.

I was just reconciling things so we could get back to the original theory regarding the nature of Argonians.

The exact nature of planes of oblivion and nirn is not described anywhere, but since both planes of oblivion and nirm were created by the same race and since there are so many similarities between nirn and planes of oblivion I'd say they are the same, just a very sophisticated version and a very simple version.

Just like I mentioned previously. A calculator is also a computer, but because it's so simple we call it differently. I think the same applies in case of planes of oblivion and nirn... Nirn being a computer and planes of oblivion a calculator.

Aemon_Isklexi

The Redguard mythology speaks of multiple worlds that arose and crumbled in a cycle (the great snake shedding its skin). It's possible the Hist are refugees from one of those previous worlds.