LORE DISCUSSION: Argonians = Daedra

dodgehopper_ESO

Aemon_Isklexi wrote: »

The Redguard mythology speaks of multiple worlds that arose and crumbled in a cycle (the great snake shedding its skin). It's possible the Hist are refugees from one of those previous worlds.

I get the sense that Satakal is Shor/Lorkhan/Auriel/Akatosh. (The snake eating its tail, thus Lorkhan is murdered by himself in a sense, that ouroboros symbol).

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Don't forget that there are realms aside from Nirn that aren't realms of Oblivion:

However, your question does give me an opportunity to correct a common misconception, which is that all realms beyond Nirn are part of Oblivion. The planes of Sovngarde, the Far Shores, et al., are Aetherial realms of the afterlife, and not the provinces of Daedra at all."

ShedsHisTail

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Don't forget that there are realms aside from Nirn that aren't realms of Oblivion:

However, your question does give me an opportunity to correct a common misconception, which is that all realms beyond Nirn are part of Oblivion. The planes of Sovngarde, the Far Shores, et al., are Aetherial realms of the afterlife, and not the provinces of Daedra at all."

Perhaps the original realm of the Hist was neither Daedric nor Aedric in nature. Perhaps it was one of these Aetherian afterlives, which might help to explain the reincarnation mechanic which so closely resembles that of the Daedra?

That's really what's lingering for me, here, is how closely the act of death and rebirth for Argonians mirrors that same act with the Daedra.

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Don't forget that there are realms aside from Nirn that aren't realms of Oblivion:

However, your question does give me an opportunity to correct a common misconception, which is that all realms beyond Nirn are part of Oblivion. The planes of Sovngarde, the Far Shores, et al., are Aetherial realms of the afterlife, and not the provinces of Daedra at all."

Perhaps the original realm of the Hist was neither Daedric nor Aedric in nature. Perhaps it was one of these Aetherian afterlives, which might help to explain the reincarnation mechanic which so closely resembles that of the Daedra?

That's really what's lingering for me, here, is how closely the act of death and rebirth for Argonians mirrors that same act with the Daedra.

I think plane of oblivion is more likely. It's said all living souls go to Aetherius, but I've never read that the souls would get "recycled" there to be born in Nirn again.
Argonians go back to the hist after death, not to Aetherius, so that would indicate they have a daedric origin.
Not to mention there are plenty of lizard daedric creatures like the Daedroth.

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

Here are the Daedroth from Morrowind, they do remind me of Argonians.



According to Wiki there are two kinds of Daedroth, the one's we meet in game (big alligator creatures) and then the one's closely resembling the argonians that can wield weapons and armor.

ShedsHisTail

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

Here are the Daedroth from Morrowind, they do remind me of Argonians.



According to Wiki there are two kinds of Daedroth, the one's we meet in game (big alligator creatures) and then the one's closely resembling the argonians that can wield weapons and armor.

So the Daedroth is Molag Bal's Argonians.

So then can I safely say that you and I agree that Argonian's are, pretty likely, to be a Daedric variant on a greater than semantic level?

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

Yup, everything points to it

ShedsHisTail

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

Yup, everything points to it

Huzzah!

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

And now the origin on the Khajiit
[video=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTvl9TBhYzs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTvl9TBhYzs[/video]

ShedsHisTail

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

And now the origin on the Khajiit
[video=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTvl9TBhYzs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTvl9TBhYzs[/video]

Cats can get their own thread.

Recremen

This data assignment has been noted, logged, and implemented. All Argonians have now been transformed into Daedra. You might have intended to imply equivalence (Argonian == Daedra) but it's way more fun this way.

ShedsHisTail

Recremen wrote: »

This data assignment has been noted, logged, and implemented. All Argonians have now been transformed into Daedra. You might have intended to imply equivalence (Argonian == Daedra) but it's way more fun this way.

I meant to imply that Argonians are, in fact, a form of Daedra.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

And thus we learn that @Recremen is a programmer and @ShedsHisTail is not.

ShedsHisTail

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

And thus we learn that @Recremen is a programmer and @ShedsHisTail is not.

Truth.

Xundiin

Ffastyl wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

But in the end all beings in TES universe are a creation of Aedra or Daedra (both the same = Et'Ada) so all could be called daedra.

It's just a matter of terminology.

Daedra is elvish for "not our ancestors" and Aedra is "our ancestors." The two terms are not interchangeable and cannot be used to reference the inhabitants of Nirn.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Incidentally, this theory also implies a Daedric Prince which lords over the realm of Nirn.

The "Prince" of Mundus are the Eight Divines: Akatosh, Stendarr, Julianos, Mara, Zenithar, Dibella, Arkay and Kynareth. These Eight Et'Ada gave up their immortal status to create Nirn and mortals, gifting our plane with the coveted spark of creation. The daedra lack the ability to create, so they seek and imitate mortals.

That's not really true. The only real difference between Aedra and Daedra is that Aedra created Nirn. All Aedra and Daedra where asked if they wanted to help with this creation, Daedra said no since this would weaken them. Daedra do have the power to create, they can't create things in Nirn, they can how ever create things in Oblivion and trick a mortal into carrying it/or transporting it to Nirn. prime example of this is in game is the anchors. Molag bal can create tons of them, in fact he has, but he can't get them to Nirn with out the mortals help. Which in turn helps transport Nirn into oblivion so he can have direct control over it.

As far as Argonians are considered, they are mutations of creatures that where already apart of and created on Nirn. The Hist tree changed common lizards into sentient beings. So Argonians aren't really Daedra, they're just mutations of a possible Daedra. Depending on what you want to consider the Hist tree to be.

ParaNostram

I believe the Mythic Dawn believed similarly that Nirn was a realm of Oblivion.

ShedsHisTail

Xundiin wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

But in the end all beings in TES universe are a creation of Aedra or Daedra (both the same = Et'Ada) so all could be called daedra.

It's just a matter of terminology.

Daedra is elvish for "not our ancestors" and Aedra is "our ancestors." The two terms are not interchangeable and cannot be used to reference the inhabitants of Nirn.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Incidentally, this theory also implies a Daedric Prince which lords over the realm of Nirn.

The "Prince" of Mundus are the Eight Divines: Akatosh, Stendarr, Julianos, Mara, Zenithar, Dibella, Arkay and Kynareth. These Eight Et'Ada gave up their immortal status to create Nirn and mortals, gifting our plane with the coveted spark of creation. The daedra lack the ability to create, so they seek and imitate mortals.

That's not really true. The only real difference between Aedra and Daedra is that Aedra created Nirn. All Aedra and Daedra where asked if they wanted to help with this creation, Daedra said no since this would weaken them. Daedra do have the power to create, they can't create things in Nirn, they can how ever create things in Oblivion and trick a mortal into carrying it/or transporting it to Nirn. prime example of this is in game is the anchors. Molag bal can create tons of them, in fact he has, but he can't get them to Nirn with out the mortals help. Which in turn helps transport Nirn into oblivion so he can have direct control over it.

As far as Argonians are considered, they are mutations of creatures that where already apart of and created on Nirn. The Hist tree changed common lizards into sentient beings. So Argonians aren't really Daedra, they're just mutations of a possible Daedra. Depending on what you want to consider the Hist tree to be.

Do we have a confirmed source for the ascended lizard theory, or is that just supposition?

Xundiin

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

But in the end all beings in TES universe are a creation of Aedra or Daedra (both the same = Et'Ada) so all could be called daedra.

It's just a matter of terminology.

Daedra is elvish for "not our ancestors" and Aedra is "our ancestors." The two terms are not interchangeable and cannot be used to reference the inhabitants of Nirn.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Incidentally, this theory also implies a Daedric Prince which lords over the realm of Nirn.

The "Prince" of Mundus are the Eight Divines: Akatosh, Stendarr, Julianos, Mara, Zenithar, Dibella, Arkay and Kynareth. These Eight Et'Ada gave up their immortal status to create Nirn and mortals, gifting our plane with the coveted spark of creation. The daedra lack the ability to create, so they seek and imitate mortals.

That's not really true. The only real difference between Aedra and Daedra is that Aedra created Nirn. All Aedra and Daedra where asked if they wanted to help with this creation, Daedra said no since this would weaken them. Daedra do have the power to create, they can't create things in Nirn, they can how ever create things in Oblivion and trick a mortal into carrying it/or transporting it to Nirn. prime example of this is in game is the anchors. Molag bal can create tons of them, in fact he has, but he can't get them to Nirn with out the mortals help. Which in turn helps transport Nirn into oblivion so he can have direct control over it.

As far as Argonians are considered, they are mutations of creatures that where already apart of and created on Nirn. The Hist tree changed common lizards into sentient beings. So Argonians aren't really Daedra, they're just mutations of a possible Daedra. Depending on what you want to consider the Hist tree to be.

Do we have a confirmed source for the ascended lizard theory, or is that just supposition?

yes actually, it's stated in one of the books about cross breeding iirc. I'd have to dig through some ingame books to find which one it is, but I'm pretty sure it was linked in a thread about interracial offspring.

Ok, here's a link that kinda hints at the theory, but because the Argonians may possible be the oldest race the history of their orgins might be lost forever and all one can do is speculate.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:243033

There seem to be 3 popular theories involving their origins. The first, being the one I mentioned, that the Hist tree transformed existing reptiles to serve them. The second is that the Argonians came from another world with the Hist tree. Which plays into that in Argonian Culture there is no concept of time. This is an Imperial device that jel doesn't even have a word for. The third theory, one that I'm kinda on the fence about, is that the Hist brought the souls of Argonians with them and placed them into existing reptiles in the Black Marsh. Which also plays into the reincarnation of Argonians as well.

LadyNalcarya

An interesting theory, but too much of a stretch imo.
It is true that souls of argonians are "recycled" by Hist, but similar thing happens to any other souls in Dreamsleeve (ofc unless theyre soultrapped or something).
Also argonians are not "recreated" after they die, they reproduce and age like any mortal race.. Well except that argonians lay eggs. ^^
I personally like the theory that Hist and argonians are the remnants of one of the previous eras, like dreughs for example. In some books like Mysterium Xarxes commentaries or sermons of Vivec dreughs are implied to be a developed sentient race, which doesnt seem to be the case in TES game

BenLocoDete

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

Legoless wrote: »

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

Calling Nirn a realm of Oblivion is a horrible oversimplification though. Don't do that.

But that's what it is, it's a more sophisticated realm of oblivion. Just as a calculator is a simple computer.

I wouldn't call it "more sophisticated" since we are generally thrown to explore Tamriel with rare occurrences of visiting the Daedric realms. So we don't know or have much information regarding the "life" in a daedric realm, but it is safe to imply that they have their own culture and their hostility to anyone outside of their natural lifestyle pertains to most cultures in Tamriel as well.

ShedsHisTail

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

An interesting theory, but too much of a stretch imo.
It is true that souls of argonians are "recycled" by Hist, but similar thing happens to any other souls in Dreamsleeve (ofc unless theyre soultrapped or something).
Also argonians are not "recreated" after they die, they reproduce and age like any mortal race.. Well except that argonians lay eggs. ^^

Aren't they, though?
As with Azureplasm, if we assume the Chaotic Creatia must accrete upon a vestige body; what better way to do so than to have said body growing within the protective casing of an egg. Similarly, it's this Chaotic Creatia which houses the creatures essence, or "soul" as it were, and returns to life time after time. The egg is a different mechanism than seen with other Daedra but serves the same function; put a soul in a body. Just because the body may not be identical each time, which really, we've no reason to assume this is the case with other Daedra either, does not mean the being contained therein is not eternal.

This also explains why Argonians born away from the Hist tend to be... vacant.

Yes, it's true, there are other mechanisms for recycling souls... and that's not really the relevant issue. The important aspect here is that Argonian souls appear to be "made" of different stuff than other races. They appear to be composed of a Hist-borne version of the Chaotic Creatia, just as the Daedric races have souls composed of their own realm specific Chatoic Creatia.

That's the important distinction is the substance which comprises the soul. Is it Chaotic Creatia? Or whatever Man and Mer souls are made of?

starkerealm

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Nirn a realm of Oblivion? Have you been listening to Mankar Camoran again?

To be fair, Mankar Camoran is one of the few times TES has received a very concise set of metaphysics to drive the setting.

nimander99

Your theory is intriguing, I also saw the parallels between amberplasm and azureplasm, but keep in mind that azureplasm is specific to Molag Bal's realm of Oblivion (with maybe some crossover). Whereas we have other sorts of plasm or lava in other daedric realms.

But as to Nirn being another plane of Oblivion I think that is not correct. Every daedric realm has its ruling gender fluid daedric Lordcess and those realms take on the aspect of that Lordcess whereas in Nirn, each daedric Lordcess is vying for control over mortals and their domains. Now I may be incorrect here, but I don't recall daedric Lordcess' invading each other's realms... They tend to duke it out on Nirn.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

And thus we learn that @Recremen is a programmer and @ShedsHisTail is not.

Of course @ShedsHisTail isn't a programmer, he's a Daedra now.

ShedsHisTail

nimander99 wrote: »

Your theory is intriguing, I also saw the parallels between amberplasm and azureplasm, but keep in mind that azureplasm is specific to Molag Bal's realm of Oblivion (with maybe some crossover). Whereas we have other sorts of plasm or lava in other daedric realms.

Of course. As I mentioned in the OP, the Chaotic Creatia takes different forms depending on where it's found. Azureplasm in Coldharbor, other plasms in other realms of Oblivion, and perhaps, Amberplasm on Nirn.

But as to Nirn being another plane of Oblivion I think that is not correct. Every daedric realm has its ruling gender fluid daedric Lordcess and those realms take on the aspect of that Lordcess whereas in Nirn, each daedric Lordcess is vying for control over mortals and their domains. Now I may be incorrect here, but I don't recall daedric Lordcess' invading each other's realms... They tend to duke it out on Nirn.

Well, Meridia did send a whole City to Coldharbor...

Aemon_Isklexi

I think it's important to note that Nirn isn't as physically mutable as an Oblivion realm. Deadric Lords can literally shape their realm to whatever they can imagine, but that doesn't work on Nirn. That's the entire gist of the creation myths where Lorkhan persuaded/tricked the Aedra into creating Nirn.

If the amberplasm is analogous to the azureplasm, I think the Hist may have brought it with them from their original home, and it doesn't occur naturally on Nirn. The Hist have always been renowned for the supernatural properties of their sap, and the those properties have always been linked with psychotropic effects and memories.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Argonians age. I don't believe Daedra do (feel free to link sources if you know of one that contradicts)?

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Aemon_Isklexi wrote: »

I think it's important to note that Nirn isn't as physically mutable as an Oblivion realm. Deadric Lords can literally shape their realm to whatever they can imagine, but that doesn't work on Nirn. That's the entire gist of the creation myths where Lorkhan persuaded/tricked the Aedra into creating Nirn.

If the amberplasm is analogous to the azureplasm, I think the Hist may have brought it with them from their original home, and it doesn't occur naturally on Nirn. The Hist have always been renowned for the supernatural properties of their sap, and the those properties have always been linked with psychotropic effects and memories.

Read the annotated anuad, the hist were around since the beginning of creation, they aren't from another world or invaders. They are from 1 of the 12 worlds of creation that got mixed together into nirn. So amberplasm does occur naturally on nirn since it has been there since it first formed(more accurately I suppose it occurs naturally in the hists part of nirn anyways). Hist being in other planes of oblivion is probably from them being stolen from nirn like the one in coldharbour or maybe they traveled there.

Really though if by this logic argonians are daedra, then all races are the daedra of nirn since all the mortal races souls can get recycled and made into a new person after death. The only difference is the argonian souls go to the hist to transfer their memories instead of going through the dreamsleeve. I think it is more accurate to say ALL mortal races are to nirn as daedra are to oblivion. I mean that is literally what it is, no real need for a theory for something that is already known. I guess you can theorize that amberplasm works the same as azure, but considering what we already know about argonian reincarnation and we know this amberplasm has never been mentioned in reference to it, it probably serves another purpose.

starkerealm

Worth remembering that Cold Harbour is, explicitly, supposed to be a dark and twisted recreation of Tamriel. The same cities and towns are supposed to exist, but in a distorted and mocking way.

It's not that much of a stretch to assume the azureplasm is an imperfect copy of something from Tamriel, possibly even the Amberplasm.

Aemon_Isklexi

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Read the annotated anuad, the hist were around since the beginning of creation, they aren't from another world or invaders. They are from 1 of the 12 worlds of creation that got mixed together into nirn. So amberplasm does occur naturally on nirn since it has been there since it first formed(more accurately I suppose it occurs naturally in the hists part of nirn anyways). Hist being in other planes of oblivion is probably from them being stolen from nirn like the one in coldharbour or maybe they traveled there.

Yes but the rules on Nirn are different from any realm that came before. The sacrifice of the Aedra caused that. It's possible that the amberplasm was prevalent on the original Hist world, like how azureplasm in Cold Harbor can be found forming rivers and lakes. On Nirn, the only amberplasm to be found seems to come directly from the Hist.

As you pointed out, there are Hist trees in some Oblivion realms that were taken there. The properties of the Hist sap are valuable and unique enough that even Molag Bal is willing to cut a deal to get access to it.