LORE DISCUSSION: Argonians = Daedra

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Aemon_Isklexi wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Read the annotated anuad, the hist were around since the beginning of creation, they aren't from another world or invaders. They are from 1 of the 12 worlds of creation that got mixed together into nirn. So amberplasm does occur naturally on nirn since it has been there since it first formed(more accurately I suppose it occurs naturally in the hists part of nirn anyways). Hist being in other planes of oblivion is probably from them being stolen from nirn like the one in coldharbour or maybe they traveled there.

Yes but the rules on Nirn are different from any realm that came before. The sacrifice of the Aedra caused that. It's possible that the amberplasm was prevalent on the original Hist world, like how azureplasm in Cold Harbor can be found forming rivers and lakes. On Nirn, the only amberplasm to be found seems to come directly from the Hist.

As you pointed out, there are Hist trees in some Oblivion realms that were taken there. The properties of the Hist sap are valuable and unique enough that even Molag Bal is willing to cut a deal to get access to it.

We will just have to wait and see what exactly it does, but I am guessing it is some source of power. Enemies looking all infused with it and more powerful as a result. Hmm why are we even assuming amberplasm comes from the hist anyways? It seems to be coming out of the ground and forming pools in that dungeon no where near a hist tree.

Aemon_Isklexi

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

We will just have to wait and see what exactly it does, but I am guessing it is some source of power. Enemies looking all infused with it and more powerful as a result. Hmm why are we even assuming amberplasm comes from the hist anyways? It seems to be coming out of the ground and forming pools in that dungeon no where near a hist tree.

Do you have a good image of the pools in the dungeon? I haven't been able to find a good picture myself. I'd assumed it looked similar to the pooling sap beneath the Hist tree at the Shadowfen hatchery.

If the amberplasm doesn't originate from the Hist, where would it be coming from?

ShedsHisTail

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Aemon_Isklexi wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Read the annotated anuad, the hist were around since the beginning of creation, they aren't from another world or invaders. They are from 1 of the 12 worlds of creation that got mixed together into nirn. So amberplasm does occur naturally on nirn since it has been there since it first formed(more accurately I suppose it occurs naturally in the hists part of nirn anyways). Hist being in other planes of oblivion is probably from them being stolen from nirn like the one in coldharbour or maybe they traveled there.

Yes but the rules on Nirn are different from any realm that came before. The sacrifice of the Aedra caused that. It's possible that the amberplasm was prevalent on the original Hist world, like how azureplasm in Cold Harbor can be found forming rivers and lakes. On Nirn, the only amberplasm to be found seems to come directly from the Hist.

As you pointed out, there are Hist trees in some Oblivion realms that were taken there. The properties of the Hist sap are valuable and unique enough that even Molag Bal is willing to cut a deal to get access to it.

We will just have to wait and see what exactly it does, but I am guessing it is some source of power. Enemies looking all infused with it and more powerful as a result. Hmm why are we even assuming amberplasm comes from the hist anyways? It seems to be coming out of the ground and forming pools in that dungeon no where near a hist tree.

I seem to recall it dripping directly out of the Hist in the final boss fight from the ESO live.

Eporem

Could Amberplasm be altered Hist Sap?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hist_Sap#cite_note-Oblivion-3

Enodoc

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Nirn a realm of Oblivion? Have you been listening to Mankar Camoran again?

ParaNostram wrote: »

I believe the Mythic Dawn believed similarly that Nirn was a realm of Oblivion.

I was thinking the same thing Under that theory, the realm is "Starry Heart", the plane of Lorkhan, Daedric Prince of Mortality (or some-such).

Ffastyl wrote: »

Mundus and Nirn are not the same. Somehow. That distinction is still unclear to this scholar.

I think the distinction you are looking for is based on the fact that the Eight Divines "gave of themselves" to create Mundus. Thus, Mundus as a whole is comprised of Nirn, the moons, and the bits that the Eight gave; ie, the eight Aedric Plane(t)s as seen in the Orrery. The rest of the Aedra (Y'ffre et al.) gave themselves to become the basis of Nature, so they are the Earthbones of Nirn and do not have separate plane(t)s in the Mundus.

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

Both Daedra and Aedra are one species, both are Et'Ada, that's my point. The only difference is how they were named by mortal races later on. No idea where you got the idea that Daedra cannot create as they posses the same powers as Aedra once did, except the Aedra used almost all their power to create Nirn while Daedra refused to contribute so they maintained all their original power.

The essence behind this is that if Daedra were to create something, they would cease to have the power of Daedra. Creation, by essence, is to give of yourself such that something else may exist. It's probably not so much that Daedra can't create, it's that they won't, because they don't want to give up their power. Thus, Daedra do not create, and I can't think of any examples of a Daedric creation. The Hist are a creation of Sithis, not of Daedra. What's more, the Hist are at the same level of creation as the Ehlnofey, so they themselves could be considered et'Ada.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

SlappyThePoptart wrote: »

Nirn is not a plane of Oblivion. Oblivion was created by the Daedra, Nirn was made by the Aedra. However, I like the idea. I always thought mortals were the Aedric counter to the Lesser Daedra, because they are descended from the Et-Ada and return to Aetherius when they die (unless a Daedra claims their soul lol).

See, I think you and I might be on the same page.

We know the Hist are non-native to Nirn. Their own realm was destroyed which would make them, in effect, refugees of the Ehlnofey wars. I think that they are, through the creation of Argonians for manual labor and defense effectively terraforming a section of Nirn (Blackmarsh) to suit their needs.

Right, there's a theory that Black Marsh itself is a remnant of the Realm of the Hist that was sundered during the Ehlnofey Wars, so perhaps it's not so much that the Hist have terraformed a section of Nirn, just that there's a bit of Nirn that was originally part of somewhere else.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Aemon_Isklexi wrote: »

The Redguard mythology speaks of multiple worlds that arose and crumbled in a cycle (the great snake shedding its skin). It's possible the Hist are refugees from one of those previous worlds.

I get the sense that Satakal is Shor/Lorkhan/Auriel/Akatosh. (The snake eating its tail, thus Lorkhan is murdered by himself in a sense, that ouroboros symbol).

Right, the way I see it is that Satakal is a direct personification of the Grey Maybe, constantly in conflict with itself as it exists in the intersection of Stasis and Change.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Don't forget that there are realms aside from Nirn that aren't realms of Oblivion:

However, your question does give me an opportunity to correct a common misconception, which is that all realms beyond Nirn are part of Oblivion. The planes of Sovngarde, the Far Shores, et al., are Aetherial realms of the afterlife, and not the provinces of Daedra at all."

Perhaps the original realm of the Hist was neither Daedric nor Aedric in nature. Perhaps it was one of these Aetherian afterlives, which might help to explain the reincarnation mechanic which so closely resembles that of the Daedra?

That's really what's lingering for me, here, is how closely the act of death and rebirth for Argonians mirrors that same act with the Daedra.

On that:

Legoless wrote: »

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

@Legoless I think I'm going to go back and check that more closely. I remember the Realm of the Hist being "a thing", but was it ever explicitly stated that it was a realm of Oblivion, rather than a realm of Mundus or Aetherius?

nimander99 wrote: »

Now I may be incorrect here, but I don't recall daedric Lordcess' invading each other's realms... They tend to duke it out on Nirn.

Meridia put a bit of Nirn in Coldharbour and wandered around, so that's kind of an invasion of one Daedra into another's realm.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

That's the important distinction is the substance which comprises the soul. Is it Chaotic Creatia? Or whatever Man and Mer souls are made of?

The intrinsic essence of a mortal's soul is that it is Anuic. Argonians are considered mortal and are able to be soul-shriven (even if your character is not Argonian, you meet Er-Jaseen during the initial escape sequence). If Argonians were Daedra, they would not have souls and could not become soul-shriven.

On a side note, Chaotic Creatia is what forms around an animus to give it form, it isn't a constituent part of the animus itself

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

I think it is more accurate to say ALL mortal races are to nirn as daedra are to oblivion.

Right, that's a good summary to end on. And the primary difference between them is that the animus of mortal races (including Argonians) is Anuic, while the animus of all Daedra is Padomaic.

LadyNalcarya

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

An interesting theory, but too much of a stretch imo.
It is true that souls of argonians are "recycled" by Hist, but similar thing happens to any other souls in Dreamsleeve (ofc unless theyre soultrapped or something).
Also argonians are not "recreated" after they die, they reproduce and age like any mortal race.. Well except that argonians lay eggs. ^^

Aren't they, though?
As with Azureplasm, if we assume the Chaotic Creatia must accrete upon a vestige body; what better way to do so than to have said body growing within the protective casing of an egg. Similarly, it's this Chaotic Creatia which houses the creatures essence, or "soul" as it were, and returns to life time after time. The egg is a different mechanism than seen with other Daedra but serves the same function; put a soul in a body. Just because the body may not be identical each time, which really, we've no reason to assume this is the case with other Daedra either, does not mean the being contained therein is not eternal.

This also explains why Argonians born away from the Hist tend to be... vacant.

Yes, it's true, there are other mechanisms for recycling souls... and that's not really the relevant issue. The important aspect here is that Argonian souls appear to be "made" of different stuff than other races. They appear to be composed of a Hist-borne version of the Chaotic Creatia, just as the Daedric races have souls composed of their own realm specific Chatoic Creatia.

That's the important distinction is the substance which comprises the soul. Is it Chaotic Creatia? Or whatever Man and Mer souls are made of?

In any case, argonians are not immortal like daedra. They can die to old age, for example, but daedra can live for hundreds of years and remain the same - there is a dolmen boss called Anaxes, and he also appears in TES 4: Oblivion. And when argonian souls are reborn, they become a new being, while daedra seem to keep their personality and memories. We slay Molag Grunda in ESO, but she appears in Morrowind and remains the same winged twilight. And even more so, Molag Bal commands you to kill her so she will respawn in Coldharbour and he can punish her.
Also, speaking of souls... Here's a part of "Chaotic Creatia: The Azure Plasm" book:

It has long been understood that a Daedra, who lacks the Anuic animus known as the "soul," is not killed when its body is destroyed. A Daedra slain upon Mundus is merely "banished" back to its plane of origin, where its morphotype, or "vestige," gradually forms a new body, so that eventually the Daedra lives again. (This happens as well when a Daedra is slain in its native Oblivion.)

And from "Spirit of the Daedra":

We do not die. We do not fear death.

Destroy the Body, and the Animus is cast into The Darkness. But the Animus returns.
<...>


We are not born; we have not fathers nor mothers, yet we have kin and clans.

If reincarnation would be considered "immortality", then everyone on Nirn would be "immortal". It is interesting though, that our characters, being vestiges, inherited some daedric traits, particulalry being able to ressurect.

Btw, is there any info on Amberplasm? I cannot do that dungeon on pts, its way to laggy for me. I mean, something that would connect it to Azure plasm.
If not.. It can be something like mutated Hist sap as well (I remember a question from ESO live, something like "would it buff my argonian char", and the answer was "you wouldnt want this" as far as I remember so I thought its not something natural for regular argonians). "Plasm" in name doesnt nessesarily mean that it has the same origin. There's ectoplasm after all, and its just ghostly remains.

bertenburnyb16_ESO

The daedric planes and nirn are not exactly the Same, but they are the Same in the fact that they are all planets, and like the calculator-pc comparison, daedric realms tend to be simpler than nirn, so i can see that comparison
The statement that argonians are daedric i dont think is true, i tend to go with the hist evolving lizards to argonians (is evolution/darwinism acknowledged in tes lore? Or is everything just created? In any case, they could have created argonians out of lizards to say it lore-correctly )

Aemon_Isklexi

Enodoc wrote: »

Right, that's a good summary to end on. And the primary difference between them is that the animus of mortal races (including Argonians) is Anuic, while the animus of all Daedra is Padomaic.

What's peculiar about the Argonians is that, despite the Anuic nature of their animus, they revere Sithis/Padomey. Their Sithis worship is culturally reinforced by the Hist. The Hist recycle the souls of Argonians and preside over their hatcheries. The Hist also appear to have an intrinsic telepathic connection to each other (I wonder how similar it is to what the Dwemer had).

A case could be made that the Hist are deadra, but I'm not sure how much information is available about the lifecycle of the Hist trees.

Enodoc

Aemon_Isklexi wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Right, that's a good summary to end on. And the primary difference between them is that the animus of mortal races (including Argonians) is Anuic, while the animus of all Daedra is Padomaic.

What's peculiar about the Argonians is that, despite the Anuic nature of their animus, they revere Sithis/Padomey. Their Sithis worship is culturally reinforced by the Hist. The Hist recycle the souls of Argonians and preside over their hatcheries. The Hist also appear to have an intrinsic telepathic connection to each other (I wonder how similar it is to what the Dwemer had).

Nothing wrong with that. The Dark Brotherhood revere Sithis as well, and everyone worships Daedra, because power. It is the nature of free will to not be bound by the limits of your origins. And depending on how far you delve into Kirkbridian Lore, the souls of the other races are similarly recycled by the Dreamsleeve. There also seems to be an intrinsic telepathic connection between the Guardians (Glenumbra storyline) and Nature, which enforces the similarity between the Hist and the Ehlnofey.

A case could be made that the Hist are deadra, but I'm not sure how much information is available about the lifecycle of the Hist trees.

Possibly, but for me that doesn't work by definition. Daedra had no hand in creating mortal races, yet the Hist created the Argonians; that makes them a creator, and makes them the ancestors of Argonians in the same way the Ehlnofey are ancestors of Mer and Men. By definition therefore, being an Ancestor and a Creator, the Hist would be Aedra. Aedra on the Padomaic side of the spectrum, sure, but Aedra all the same.

nimander99

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Your theory is intriguing, I also saw the parallels between amberplasm and azureplasm, but keep in mind that azureplasm is specific to Molag Bal's realm of Oblivion (with maybe some crossover). Whereas we have other sorts of plasm or lava in other daedric realms.

Of course. As I mentioned in the OP, the Chaotic Creatia takes different forms depending on where it's found. Azureplasm in Coldharbor, other plasms in other realms of Oblivion, and perhaps, Amberplasm on Nirn.

But as to Nirn being another plane of Oblivion I think that is not correct. Every daedric realm has its ruling gender fluid daedric Lordcess and those realms take on the aspect of that Lordcess whereas in Nirn, each daedric Lordcess is vying for control over mortals and their domains. Now I may be incorrect here, but I don't recall daedric Lordcess' invading each other's realms... They tend to duke it out on Nirn.

Well, Meridia did send a whole City to Coldharbor...

True enough, we have actually seen multiple instances of daedric lords trying to 'merge' Nirn and various realms of Oblivion but I'm not sure that's proof that Nirn is a pocket of Oblivion. If anything, to me, that suggests quite the opposite. The results are always catastrophic to the location of Nirn that is being absorbed into Oblivion which suggests an inherent dichotomy between the two realms regardless of which daedric realm is trying to merge with Nirn.

Wreuntzylla

Setting aside the Argonian question, how is it that we as the main protagonists are undying? I just completed a quest where one of the NPCs particularly mentions that we are undying as compared to the normal Tamrielites.

Whatever race, we all have this quality, why?

Legoless

Enodoc wrote: »

Legoless wrote: »

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

@Legoless I think I'm going to go back and check that more closely. I remember the Realm of the Hist being "a thing", but was it ever explicitly stated that it was a realm of Oblivion, rather than a realm of Mundus or Aetherius?

@Enodoc there's been a little controversy over that (see the talk page if you're interested), but the Greg Keyes novels implied very strongly that it was in Oblivion.

LadyNalcarya

@Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Setting aside the Argonian question, how is it that we as the main protagonists are undying? I just completed a quest where one of the NPCs particularly mentions that we are undying as compared to the normal Tamrielites.

Whatever race, we all have this quality, why?

Because being a prisoner of coldharbour changed them. Their original bodies are long dead, they were sacrificed to Molag Bal by Mannimarco.
A book called "On the nature of Coldharbour" says:

Study of these sources reveals that Molag Bal desires, above all things, the enslavement of mortals' souls. Various loathsome means are employed to this end, the ultimate goal being the diversion of a soul from its journey to the afterlife to imprisonment and slavery on the plane of Coldharbour. Upon arrival in Molag Bal's realm, the soul attracts to itself some of the loose creatia of Oblivion, forming a corporeal body with the semblance of the shape it wore in life. These sad slaves, called the soul-shriven, then toil in torment for the glory and amusement of their master, Molag the Slave-Lord.

So I guess our chars just respawn like daedra.^^

Shunravi

nimander99 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Your theory is intriguing, I also saw the parallels between amberplasm and azureplasm, but keep in mind that azureplasm is specific to Molag Bal's realm of Oblivion (with maybe some crossover). Whereas we have other sorts of plasm or lava in other daedric realms.

Of course. As I mentioned in the OP, the Chaotic Creatia takes different forms depending on where it's found. Azureplasm in Coldharbor, other plasms in other realms of Oblivion, and perhaps, Amberplasm on Nirn.

But as to Nirn being another plane of Oblivion I think that is not correct. Every daedric realm has its ruling gender fluid daedric Lordcess and those realms take on the aspect of that Lordcess whereas in Nirn, each daedric Lordcess is vying for control over mortals and their domains. Now I may be incorrect here, but I don't recall daedric Lordcess' invading each other's realms... They tend to duke it out on Nirn.

Well, Meridia did send a whole City to Coldharbor...

True enough, we have actually seen multiple instances of daedric lords trying to 'merge' Nirn and various realms of Oblivion but I'm not sure that's proof that Nirn is a pocket of Oblivion. If anything, to me, that suggests quite the opposite. The results are always catastrophic to the location of Nirn that is being absorbed into Oblivion which suggests an inherent dichotomy between the two realms regardless of which daedric realm is trying to merge with Nirn.

I would say the fundamental difference between daedric realms and mundus is that daedric realms are the reflection of only one primary Lordcess, whereas the mundus has many multiples. The eight primary Aedra, and however you want to count all those that gave of themselves to create it.

Therefore the mundus is more stable. Also I would put forward that this causes incompatibility with the more fluid daedric realms.

conjecture...

Wreuntzylla

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

@Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Setting aside the Argonian question, how is it that we as the main protagonists are undying? I just completed a quest where one of the NPCs particularly mentions that we are undying as compared to the normal Tamrielites.

Whatever race, we all have this quality, why?

Because being a prisoner of coldharbour changed them. Their original bodies are long dead, they were sacrificed to Molag Bal by Mannimarco.
A book called "On the nature of Coldharbour" says:

Study of these sources reveals that Molag Bal desires, above all things, the enslavement of mortals' souls. Various loathsome means are employed to this end, the ultimate goal being the diversion of a soul from its journey to the afterlife to imprisonment and slavery on the plane of Coldharbour. Upon arrival in Molag Bal's realm, the soul attracts to itself some of the loose creatia of Oblivion, forming a corporeal body with the semblance of the shape it wore in life. These sad slaves, called the soul-shriven, then toil in torment for the glory and amusement of their master, Molag the Slave-Lord.

So I guess our chars just respawn like daedra.^^

Interesting. So, theoretically, we could invade cold harbour, free as many soul-shriven as possible, train them up, go back, rinse and repeat to build an undying army?

Can soul shriven reproduce?

ShedsHisTail

Legoless wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Legoless wrote: »

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

@Legoless I think I'm going to go back and check that more closely. I remember the Realm of the Hist being "a thing", but was it ever explicitly stated that it was a realm of Oblivion, rather than a realm of Mundus or Aetherius?

@Enodoc there's been a little controversy over that (see the talk page if you're interested), but the Greg Keyes novels implied very strongly that it was in Oblivion.

Greg Keyes novels contained a Hist-like tree travelling from Oblivion on board the floating city of Umbriel. It also contained numerous other species of beings; so it's not certain that this "tree" was native to Oblivion, or picked up elsewhere, and it's not even certain that it was a Hist.

Shunravi

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

@Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Setting aside the Argonian question, how is it that we as the main protagonists are undying? I just completed a quest where one of the NPCs particularly mentions that we are undying as compared to the normal Tamrielites.

Whatever race, we all have this quality, why?

Because being a prisoner of coldharbour changed them. Their original bodies are long dead, they were sacrificed to Molag Bal by Mannimarco.
A book called "On the nature of Coldharbour" says:

Study of these sources reveals that Molag Bal desires, above all things, the enslavement of mortals' souls. Various loathsome means are employed to this end, the ultimate goal being the diversion of a soul from its journey to the afterlife to imprisonment and slavery on the plane of Coldharbour. Upon arrival in Molag Bal's realm, the soul attracts to itself some of the loose creatia of Oblivion, forming a corporeal body with the semblance of the shape it wore in life. These sad slaves, called the soul-shriven, then toil in torment for the glory and amusement of their master, Molag the Slave-Lord.

So I guess our chars just respawn like daedra.^^

Interesting. So, theoretically, we could invade cold harbour, free as many soul-shriven as possible, train them up, go back, rinse and repeat to build an undying army?

Can soul shriven reproduce?

We don't really know.... Also, what happens to the vestige after the banner wars? Where did they go for the timelines of the other games? And cyrodill is undying army vs undying army vs undying army....

Legoless

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Greg Keyes novels contained a Hist-like tree travelling from Oblivion on board the floating city of Umbriel. It also contained numerous other species of beings; so it's not certain that this "tree" was native to Oblivion, or picked up elsewhere, and it's not even certain that it was a Hist.

@ShedsHisTail The floating island and the Hist-like trees inhabiting it were native to Clavicus Vile's realm, which is most certainly Daedric. As for the other strange species found on Umbriel, they weren't actually "picked up", they were false copies given life by the ingenuim and the trees. The trees were present in Vile's realm before Umbriel was even a thing, and come from the same realm as the Hist of Black Marsh.

So yes, the trees were from Oblivion, and yes, they share their origins with the Hist.

Enodoc

Legoless wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Legoless wrote: »

The Hist definitely seem to come from Oblivion, and Argonian souls return to the Hist in death. Whether Argonians are Daedra or simply uplifted lizards isn't readily apparent.

@Legoless I think I'm going to go back and check that more closely. I remember the Realm of the Hist being "a thing", but was it ever explicitly stated that it was a realm of Oblivion, rather than a realm of Mundus or Aetherius?

@Enodoc there's been a little controversy over that (see the talk page if you're interested), but the Greg Keyes novels implied very strongly that it was in Oblivion.

Ah thanks. We might want to include the relevant line ("Some of my people believe that the Hist came to Tamriel from Oblivion.") directly on the page so that the source is specifically referenced. With it being a most likely situation based on belief, rather than a hard fact, there's still the possibility that the Realm of the Hist is not an Oblivion realm in the daedric sense.

LadyNalcarya

@Wreuntzylla wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

@Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Setting aside the Argonian question, how is it that we as the main protagonists are undying? I just completed a quest where one of the NPCs particularly mentions that we are undying as compared to the normal Tamrielites.

Whatever race, we all have this quality, why?

Because being a prisoner of coldharbour changed them. Their original bodies are long dead, they were sacrificed to Molag Bal by Mannimarco.
A book called "On the nature of Coldharbour" says:

Study of these sources reveals that Molag Bal desires, above all things, the enslavement of mortals' souls. Various loathsome means are employed to this end, the ultimate goal being the diversion of a soul from its journey to the afterlife to imprisonment and slavery on the plane of Coldharbour. Upon arrival in Molag Bal's realm, the soul attracts to itself some of the loose creatia of Oblivion, forming a corporeal body with the semblance of the shape it wore in life. These sad slaves, called the soul-shriven, then toil in torment for the glory and amusement of their master, Molag the Slave-Lord.

So I guess our chars just respawn like daedra.^^

Interesting. So, theoretically, we could invade cold harbour, free as many soul-shriven as possible, train them up, go back, rinse and repeat to build an undying army?

Can soul shriven reproduce?

Dont know about this. But I like your idea.

nimander99

Shunravi wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Your theory is intriguing, I also saw the parallels between amberplasm and azureplasm, but keep in mind that azureplasm is specific to Molag Bal's realm of Oblivion (with maybe some crossover). Whereas we have other sorts of plasm or lava in other daedric realms.

Of course. As I mentioned in the OP, the Chaotic Creatia takes different forms depending on where it's found. Azureplasm in Coldharbor, other plasms in other realms of Oblivion, and perhaps, Amberplasm on Nirn.

But as to Nirn being another plane of Oblivion I think that is not correct. Every daedric realm has its ruling gender fluid daedric Lordcess and those realms take on the aspect of that Lordcess whereas in Nirn, each daedric Lordcess is vying for control over mortals and their domains. Now I may be incorrect here, but I don't recall daedric Lordcess' invading each other's realms... They tend to duke it out on Nirn.

Well, Meridia did send a whole City to Coldharbor...

True enough, we have actually seen multiple instances of daedric lords trying to 'merge' Nirn and various realms of Oblivion but I'm not sure that's proof that Nirn is a pocket of Oblivion. If anything, to me, that suggests quite the opposite. The results are always catastrophic to the location of Nirn that is being absorbed into Oblivion which suggests an inherent dichotomy between the two realms regardless of which daedric realm is trying to merge with Nirn.

I would say the fundamental difference between daedric realms and mundus is that daedric realms are the reflection of only one primary Lordcess, whereas the mundus has many multiples. The eight primary Aedra, and however you want to count all those that gave of themselves to create it.

Therefore the mundus is more stable. Also I would put forward that this causes incompatibility with the more fluid daedric realms.

conjecture...

Well said, I can't find any holes in your logic.

ShedsHisTail

Legoless wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Greg Keyes novels contained a Hist-like tree travelling from Oblivion on board the floating city of Umbriel. It also contained numerous other species of beings; so it's not certain that this "tree" was native to Oblivion, or picked up elsewhere, and it's not even certain that it was a Hist.

@ShedsHisTail The floating island and the Hist-like trees inhabiting it were native to Clavicus Vile's realm, which is most certainly Daedric. As for the other strange species found on Umbriel, they weren't actually "picked up", they were false copies given life by the ingenuim and the trees. The trees were present in Vile's realm before Umbriel was even a thing, and come from the same realm as the Hist of Black Marsh.

So yes, the trees were from Oblivion, and yes, they share their origins with the Hist.

You're making a lot of assumptions here.

Yes, Umbriel was part of Vile's realm. That much is true.

However, Umbriel is said to have travelled to many other realms before arriving off the coast of Tamriel. Just as the characters in the book hitched a ride, others could have done so as well; including the Hist-like tree. In fact, Umbriel was actively collecting items and beings from Tamriel during it's time there and, if I recall correctly, there was some talk about the main character becoming a part of Umbriel the event that they perished there. Since they didn't we don't know if that would have been the case, nor how exactly that mechanism works, but it was speculated in the story. Does Umbriel generate a copy? Or does that creatures soul become a recurring piece of Umbriel.

So, we know Umbriel has been to many places, an collects being from said place which may or may not, become a part of it.

Also, the Hist aren't necessarily native to Vile's realm either, the "Realm of the Hist" is another place which was largely destroyed.

One of the other things that I think we need to consider in the Elder Scrolls universe in general is the presence of souls and the implied metaphysics thereof. When it's known, for a fact, that a soul is repeatedly reincarnated in a new body, you almost have to discard the notion of bodies as beings. They are little more than material vessels for immaterial, eternal souls. In other words, it doesn't really matter if one Argonian's body appears different from the next when they are "recycled," the being itself, the soul, lives on.

Like I mentioned before, Argonians are known to have memories of past incarnations and their culture seems to place little importance on the passage of time, past tense or future tense. These are philosophical characteristics of creatures which do not die, but rather return over and over. We know the Hist can alter the Argonians physical forms, so there's no reason the HIst couldn't have given their "creations" bodies which age and die simply as a means of helping them fit into their new world; age and body-death is a social adaptation.

As long as we treat a body as little more than an animate-vessel, there's no reason an Argonian couldn't become Soul Shriven as well. Molag Bal simply intercepted said soul before it returned to the Hist; just as he did any other soul which idn't make it to it's appropriate afterlife.

There's no denying that Argonian souls are fundamentally different than those of other creatures.

LadyNalcarya

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Like I mentioned before, Argonians are known to have memories of past incarnations and their culture seems to place little importance on the passage of time, past tense or future tense. These are philosophical characteristics of creatures which do not die, but rather return over and over. We know the Hist can alter the Argonians physical forms, so there's no reason the HIst couldn't have given their "creations" bodies which age and die simply as a means of helping them fit into their new world; age and body-death is a social adaptation.

As long as we treat a body as little more than an animate-vessel, there's no reason an Argonian couldn't become Soul Shriven as well. Molag Bal simply intercepted said soul before it returned to the Hist; just as he did any other soul which idn't make it to it's appropriate afterlife.

There's no denying that Argonian souls are fundamentally different than those of other creatures.

Their ability to remember former lives is not innate, its granted by Hist. And its said in Keyes' novels that argonians connection to Hist fades if they're away from the Hist trees. I think these books also mention argonians that were born far away from Hist and arent linked to it, not sure about that one though. In that case, Hist might be like a giant memory bank, much like that tree from Avatar movie.
Aging as adaptation mechanisms is just your assumption I guess - at least I cant remember anything like this in daedra lore.
You claim that argonians=daedra, but if they have so much fundamental differencies with Oblivion daedra, they look like something... Different.
So, lets compare argonians to daedra and to other Nirn inhabitants:
1) Argonians age and die, so do other Nirn races. Daedra dont.
2) Argonians reproduce like other Nirn races (well, they lay eggs, but ovicell is also an egg in a sense ). Some daedra are known to have "children", like Molag's son and daughter, or Malacath's son who is mentioned in "16 accords of madness", but at least dremora dont reproduce like humans:

We are not born; we have not fathers nor mothers, yet we have kin and clans.

From "Spirit of the daedra".
And it wouldnt make much sense for them to mass-reproduce as they dont die.
3)Daedra are resurrected in the same form as they used to be, for example, Mehrunes Dagon was "killed" at least 3 times (in Battlespire, in Oblivion and when he attacked Mournhold and fought Almalexia and Sotha Sil). He kept his identity when he was reborn. Argonians are reincarnated by Hist, and have some kind of hivemind when they're connected to it, which helped them to fight off forces of Oblivion during oblivion crisis. But I dont remember any mentions that any argonian is the same as their previous incarnation (which is the case for daedra). Other Nirn races' souls can be reborn, or can reside in one of Oblivion's or Aetherius' (Sovngarde) planes.
4) It is also worth noting that daedra often call Nirn inhabitants "mortals" and think theyre superior since theyre immortal. Remember Lyranth and how arrogant she is to us?
And again, I dont remember that argonians would call themselves immortal in the same sense.
I can go on, but these are the main facts that prove that argonians have more in common with Nirn races than with daedra. If you have any lore arguments, please post them, I would like to discuss

ShedsHisTail

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Like I mentioned before, Argonians are known to have memories of past incarnations and their culture seems to place little importance on the passage of time, past tense or future tense. These are philosophical characteristics of creatures which do not die, but rather return over and over. We know the Hist can alter the Argonians physical forms, so there's no reason the HIst couldn't have given their "creations" bodies which age and die simply as a means of helping them fit into their new world; age and body-death is a social adaptation.

As long as we treat a body as little more than an animate-vessel, there's no reason an Argonian couldn't become Soul Shriven as well. Molag Bal simply intercepted said soul before it returned to the Hist; just as he did any other soul which idn't make it to it's appropriate afterlife.

There's no denying that Argonian souls are fundamentally different than those of other creatures.

Their ability to remember former lives is not innate, its granted by Hist. And its said in Keyes' novels that argonians connection to Hist fades if they're away from the Hist trees. I think these books also mention argonians that were born far away from Hist and arent linked to it, not sure about that one though. In that case, Hist might be like a giant memory bank, much like that tree from Avatar movie.

This is all speculation, of course, for fun. But when you get right down to it, there are a -lot- of things about mortals and daedra we assume but are never -really- explicitly explained; so I feel free to make some speculation within the realm of those things which aren't explained. The Argonian relation to the Hist is, of course, one of those.

Like you said, Argonains can be born away from the Hist and even lose their (mental) connection with time and distance. As far as I know, they never lose the ability to return to the Hist when they die. Similarly, no matter how far from their native plane they may be, Daedra also always return; also, we've encountered several rogue daedra serving their own ends... Perhaps they have lost their (mental) connections with their Prince or realm after time and distance?

Aging as adaptation mechanisms is just your assumption I guess - at least I cant remember anything like this in daedra lore. Daedra's ability to reproduce like Nirn races do has been a discussion topic in TES community for a while. You claim that argonians=daedra, but if they have so much fundamental differencies with Oblivion daedra, they look like something... Different.
So, lets compare argonians to daedra and to other Nirn inhabitants:
1) Argonians age and die, so do other Nirn races. Daedra dont.
2) Argonians reproduce like other Nirn races (well, they lay eggs, but ovicell is also an egg in a sense ).

Yes, it's a speculation on my part. Just as being "born" in an egg would be an adaptation. In fact, being born in an egg may be the why these "daedra" are able to be born outside their realm. Bear with me here for a moment and assume that the Hist, and by extension Argonians, are Daedra. They would be in a very unique situation as, like @Enodoc said, Blackmarsh may be a piece of their realm outside of their realm. This would mean that they may be -forced- to adapt to survive. No other Daedra is born outside of it's native realm. Perhaps that's the reason for eggs. Argonians have other mammalian features, there's no reason they -have- to lay eggs, no reason the Hist couldn't set them up for live birth. The egg must serve a purpose. Perhaps that purpose is to provide the developing Argnonian there-in with the necessary non-Nirn environment to develop?

Some daedra are known to have "children", like Molag's son and daughter, or Malacath's son who is mentioned in "16 accords of madness", but at least dremora dont reproduce like humans:

We are not born; we have not fathers nor mothers, yet we have kin and clans.

From "Spirit of the daedra".
And it wouldnt make much sense for them to mass-reproduce as they dont die.

Unless of course Daedric bodies don't fare well in a Nirnic environment. Like I said, age and death could be a means of adaptation. Few other Daedra are sent to Nirn for their entire lifespan. They are typically slain and return in short order. I coul be wrong, of course, but I can't recall any (minor) Daedra who've just sat around Nirn for hundreds of years at a time.

3)Daedra are resurrected in the same form as they used to be, for example, Mehrunes Dagon was "killed" at least 3 times (in Battlespire, in Oblivion and when he attacked Mournhold and fought Almalexia and Sotha Sil). He kept his identity when he was reborn.

Daedric princes, I'm sure, have all kinds of properties a minor Daedra wouldn't. I'm not making that comparison. I'm comparing Argonians to minor Daedra.

Argonians are reincarnated by Hist, and have some kind of hivemind when they're connected to it, which helped them to fight off forces of Oblivion during oblivion crisis. But I dont remember any mentions that any argonian is the same as their previous incarnation (which is the case for daedra).

We've no reason to assume that any minor Daedra appear in the same form, either, every time outside of the game making them all look the same. That's one of the not-explicitly-explained things we tend to assume. We know Daedra are reborn and they remember their previous incarnation; how exactly that works we don't know. The Argonians only being able to remember past incarnations thanks to the Hist could be an arbitrary decision made by the Hist. The Daedric Princes might find it in their best interest for their minions to continue their missions after re-incarnation without having to be told again. The Hist might prefer Argonians, in general, behave differently and only grant past memories to those who require them.

We don't know.

Other Nirn races' souls can be reborn, or can reside in one of Oblivion's or Aetherius' (Sovngarde) planes.

Again, irrelevant.

4) It is also worth noting that daedra often call Nirn inhabitants "mortals" and think theyre superior since theyre immortal. Remember Lyranth and how arrogant she is to us?
And again, I dont remember that argonians would call themselves immortal in the same sense.
I can go on, but these are the main facts that prove that argonians have more in common with Nirn races than with daedra. If you have any lore arguments, please post them, I would like to discuss

"Mortal" is a pretty relative term though, do you think? I mean, the Daedra call themselves immortal, but is that just because they can remember past lives? Functionally their no different... They die, their soul goes elsewhere and is/can be reborn. Argonian wouldn't call themselves immortal in the same way because they don't always return with the same memories; but they -do- return and they are aware of it. Like I said, this is why their culture has little regard for past and future and the passing of time. As part of the Hist, they are one, and eternal, and they know it.

I can't really provide lore because we're into territory without lore here. This is all speculation.
Yes, I agree, physically Argonian individuals have more in common with mortals than Daedra; and that may be by design, courtesy of the Hist... Metaphysically, though, they more closely resemble Daedra than mortals.

LadyNalcarya

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Yes, it's a speculation on my part. Just as being "born" in an egg would be an adaptation. Bear with me here and assume that the Hist, and by extension Argonians, are Daedra. They would be in a very unique situation as, like @Enodoc said, Blackmarsh may be a piece of their realm outside of their realm. This would mean that they may be -forced- to adapt to survive. No other Daedra is born outside of it's native realm. Perhaps that's the reason for eggs. Argonians have other mammalian features, there's no reason they -have- to lay eggs, no reason the Hist couldn't set them up for live birth. The egg must serve a purpose. Perhaps that purpose is to provide the developing Argnonian there-in with the necessary non-Nirn environment to develop?

Mammals also have "eggs", even though those eggs are just cells.
Also I can understand your interpretation, but in thise sense, its not much different from Mankar Camoran's claims about Nirn being an Oblivion plane. And it makes all of its races mutated "Daedroths". I just dont see why argonians should be different from the others. They do have deep connection to something which is clearly otherworld-ish so to speak - Hist trees. But their life cycle resembles human's and mer's (minus the reptilian features of course). Being changed by et'Ada is not unheard of, for example, bosmer were given their current forms by Y'ffre. I do not deny the fact that argonians are unique, but so are khajiits, bosmer and pretty much any other race. So, if argonians are daedroths, why bosmer arent?

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Some daedra are known to have "children", like Molag's son and daughter, or Malacath's son who is mentioned in "16 accords of madness", but at least dremora dont reproduce like humans:

We are not born; we have not fathers nor mothers, yet we have kin and clans.

From "Spirit of the daedra".
And it wouldnt make much sense for them to mass-reproduce as they dont die.

Unless of course Daedric bodies don't fare well in a Nirnic environment. Like I said, age and death could be a means of adaptation. Few other Daedra are sent to Nirn for their entire lifespan. They are typically slain and return in short order. I coul be wrong, of course, but I can't recall any (minor) Daedra who've just sat around Nirn for hundreds of years at a time.

In fact, there are a few.
Velehk Sain comes to mind, he used to be a pirate king of Abecean sea, and in Skyrim quest it is mentioned that he had a ship, as well as some hidden treasure stashes, which is (along with his fame) not something that can be achieved if he was just briefly summoned, like dremoras that our chars conjure.
Some of Morrowind shrines are guarded by dremora - Ahnaedra and Krazzt,and there are pligrimage traditions related to them.
Also in Morrowind there's at least one daedric shrine that has been sealed for a while, but its full of daedra.

3)Daedra are resurrected in the same form as they used to be, for example, Mehrunes Dagon was "killed" at least 3 times (in Battlespire, in Oblivion and when he attacked Mournhold and fought Almalexia and Sotha Sil). He kept his identity when he was reborn.

Daedric princes, I'm sure, have all kinds of properties a minor Daedra wouldn't. I'm not making that comparison. I'm comparing Argonians to minor Daedra.

Well, golden saints are minor daedra. But during one of Shivering Isles quests, one of them tells you that her commander wasnt killed just because she would've returned to them:
"They imprisoned Staada somewhere within Brellach. If they killed her, she could return to us through the Wellspring, so they keep her hostage. If we follow the waters of the Wellspring, we will surely find her"
Which implies that she would be concious after he ressurection.
Also, during Morrowind quest, Molag Bal requires you to kill his runaway daughter, Molag Grunda and her lover so they will return to him and he can torture them.

Argonians are reincarnated by Hist, and have some kind of hivemind when they're connected to it, which helped them to fight off forces of Oblivion during oblivion crisis. But I dont remember any mentions that any argonian is the same as their previous incarnation (which is the case for daedra).

We've no reason to assume that any minor Daedra appear in the same form, either, every time outside of the game making them all look the same. That's one of the not-explicitly-explained things we tend to assume. We know Daedra are reborn and they remember their previous incarnation; how exactly that works we don't know. The Argonians only being able to remember past incarnations thanks to the Hist could be an arbitrary decision made by the Hist. The Daedric Princes might find it in their best interest for their minions to continue their missions after re-incarnation without having to be told again. The Hist might prefer Argonians, in general, behave differently and only grant past memories to those who require them.

We don't know.

See above.

Other Nirn races' souls can be reborn, or can reside in one of Oblivion's or Aetherius' (Sovngarde) planes.

Again, irrelevant.

It is relevant. A theory about Nirn being (at least partially) a daedric plane or something similar is interesting, but I dont understand what makes argonians fundamentally different. Of course, all races of Nirn are different, like khajits with their relation to moons, but if argonians are daedroths, why kajiits arent? I'm not trying to be agressive, I'm actually wondering and I love lore discussions. After all its an imaginary world and there's a room for all opinions.

4) It is also worth noting that daedra often call Nirn inhabitants "mortals" and think theyre superior since theyre immortal. Remember Lyranth and how arrogant she is to us?
And again, I dont remember that argonians would call themselves immortal in the same sense.
I can go on, but these are the main facts that prove that argonians have more in common with Nirn races than with daedra. If you have any lore arguments, please post them, I would like to discuss

"Mortal" is a pretty relative term though, do you think? I mean, the Daedra call themselves immortal, but is that just because they can remember past lives? Functionally their no different... They die, their soul goes elsewhere and is/can be reborn. Argonian wouldn't call themselves immortal in the same way because they don't always return with the same memories; but they -do- return and they are aware of it. Like I said, this is why their culture has little regard for past and future and the passing of time. As part of the Hist, they are one, and eternal, and they know it.

I can't really provide lore because we're into territory without lore here. This is all speculation.
Yes, I agree, physically Argonian individuals have more in common with mortals than Daedra; and that may be by design, courtesy of the Hist... Metaphysically, though, they more closely resemble Daedra than mortals.

That's truth, but daedra clearly separate themselves from Nirn inhabitants. Golden saints, dremora, all alike.
So there might be something.
And yeah, many things are not explained or vaguely explained. But that makes discussing theories fun.

P.S. Metaphysically there's no "mundane" races. Take bosmers for example, who are originally everchanging spirits...

ShedsHisTail

Here's the thing...

You keep saying you see no reason why Argonians should be fundamentally different... but they -ARE- fundamentally different.

They are the only "mortal" race which needs to be born in a certain location (in order to be normal).
The only race which has their "soul" imbued upon them by another being.
The only race whose soul does -not- go to some other-worldy afterlife, but rather returns to said beings.
The only "mortal" race both aware and accepting of regular and assured reincarnation.
The only race to owe their very existence to a being which is present right there on Nirn; not some divine spirit figure.

So, you can continue to ignore all these things and say, "they're just like every other mortal" but the fact is they very much are not.

ShedsHisTail

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Unless of course Daedric bodies don't fare well in a Nirnic environment. Like I said, age and death could be a means of adaptation. Few other Daedra are sent to Nirn for their entire lifespan. They are typically slain and return in short order. I coul be wrong, of course, but I can't recall any (minor) Daedra who've just sat around Nirn for hundreds of years at a time.

In fact, there are a few.
Velehk Sain comes to mind, he used to be a pirate king of Abecean sea, and in Skyrim quest it is mentioned that he had a ship, as well as some hidden treasure stashes, which is (along with his fame) not something that can be achieved if he was just briefly summoned, like dremoras that our chars conjure.
Some of Morrowind shrines are guarded by dremora - Ahnaedra and Krazzt,and there are pligrimage traditions related to them.
Also in Morrowind there's at least one daedric shrine that has been sealed for a while, but its full of daedra.

Wanted to address this. Again, my aging theory is purely speculation, but the examples you've given do little to refute it. A daedric pirate could be killed over and over and as long as it's Prince wants it to continue pirating, it will return and do so. We know, historically, it was killed several times an returned to continue pirating. I'm sure it has a few undocumented "deaths" as well.

Same with the Shrine guardians and locked up dungeons. If these Daedra are here for a reason, especially a reason dictated by their Prince, or summoned and bound, there is no reason their presence couldn't be renewed off-screen as needed. For all we know, they sit in Oblivion watching sports until someone opens that door, then their sucked back to Nirn to do their jobs.

3)Daedra are resurrected in the same form as they used to be, for example, Mehrunes Dagon was "killed" at least 3 times (in Battlespire, in Oblivion and when he attacked Mournhold and fought Almalexia and Sotha Sil). He kept his identity when he was reborn.

Daedric princes, I'm sure, have all kinds of properties a minor Daedra wouldn't. I'm not making that comparison. I'm comparing Argonians to minor Daedra.

Well, golden saints are minor daedra. But during one of Shivering Isles quests, one of them tells you that her commander wasnt killed just because she would've returned to them:
"They imprisoned Staada somewhere within Brellach. If they killed her, she could return to us through the Wellspring, so they keep her hostage. If we follow the waters of the Wellspring, we will surely find her"
Which implies that she would be concious after he ressurection.
Also, during Morrowind quest, Molag Bal requires you to kill his runaway daughter, Molag Grunda and her lover so they will return to him and he can torture them.

Again, if daedra are aware of past incarnations, they may be able to recognize one another on a deeper level. Staada might well have returned to them... But maybe with a different face, or be a bit taller?

Similarly, we know Molag Bal can torture souls without them having a physical form. Pretty sure we've seen it done. If daedra recognize one another on a more-than-physical level, there's no reason they'd have to appear to look the same with each incarnation.

LadyNalcarya

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Here's the thing...

You keep saying you see no reason why Argonians should be fundamentally different... but they -ARE- fundamentally different.

They are the only "mortal" race which needs to be born in a certain location (in order to be normal).
The only race which has their "soul" imbued upon them by another being.
The only race whose soul does -not- go to some other-worldy afterlife, but rather returns to said beings.
The only "mortal" race both aware and accepting of regular and assured reincarnation.
The only race to owe their very existence to a being which is present right there on Nirn; not some divine spirit figure.

So, you can continue to ignore all these things and say, "they're just like every other mortal" but the fact is they very much are not.

The thing is, in this sense any other race is also different.
I'm sorry, but while I understand that you love argonians, making them "something more that others" sounds really Mary-Sueish.
Again, there's no mundane races in Elder Scrolls. Every race has its special traits. Yes, argonians have special connection to Hist which they need in order to be normal. Khajiits need their spiritual connection to the moons to be normal, too. Being changed by a deity and serving said deity?.. Bosmer also do that. Argonians do have unique views on afterlife, but so do nords, they even have a special realm in Aetherius.
Recycling souls is possible, for example, Mankar Camoran could make his dead followers respawn every time they are killed by predators of his Paradise. I can imagine that a magical race (Hist) can do that as well.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Unless of course Daedric bodies don't fare well in a Nirnic environment. Like I said, age and death could be a means of adaptation. Few other Daedra are sent to Nirn for their entire lifespan. They are typically slain and return in short order. I coul be wrong, of course, but I can't recall any (minor) Daedra who've just sat around Nirn for hundreds of years at a time.

In fact, there are a few.
Velehk Sain comes to mind, he used to be a pirate king of Abecean sea, and in Skyrim quest it is mentioned that he had a ship, as well as some hidden treasure stashes, which is (along with his fame) not something that can be achieved if he was just briefly summoned, like dremoras that our chars conjure.
Some of Morrowind shrines are guarded by dremora - Ahnaedra and Krazzt,and there are pligrimage traditions related to them.
Also in Morrowind there's at least one daedric shrine that has been sealed for a while, but its full of daedra.

Wanted to address this. Again, my aging theory is purely speculation, but the examples you've given do little to refute it. A daedric pirate could be killed over and over and as long as it's Prince wants it to continue pirating, it will return and do so. We know, historically, it was killed several times an returned to continue pirating. I'm sure it has a few undocumented "deaths" as well.

Same with the Shrine guardians and locked up dungeons. If these Daedra are here for a reason, especially a reason dictated by their Prince, or summoned and bound, there is no reason their presence couldn't be renewed off-screen as needed. For all we know, they sit in Oblivion watching sports until someone opens that door, then their sucked back to Nirn to do their jobs.

3)Daedra are resurrected in the same form as they used to be, for example, Mehrunes Dagon was "killed" at least 3 times (in Battlespire, in Oblivion and when he attacked Mournhold and fought Almalexia and Sotha Sil). He kept his identity when he was reborn.

Daedric princes, I'm sure, have all kinds of properties a minor Daedra wouldn't. I'm not making that comparison. I'm comparing Argonians to minor Daedra.

Well, golden saints are minor daedra. But during one of Shivering Isles quests, one of them tells you that her commander wasnt killed just because she would've returned to them:
"They imprisoned Staada somewhere within Brellach. If they killed her, she could return to us through the Wellspring, so they keep her hostage. If we follow the waters of the Wellspring, we will surely find her"
Which implies that she would be concious after he ressurection.
Also, during Morrowind quest, Molag Bal requires you to kill his runaway daughter, Molag Grunda and her lover so they will return to him and he can torture them.

Again, if daedra are aware of past incarnations, they may be able to recognize one another on a deeper level. Staada might well have returned to them... But maybe with a different face, or be a bit taller?

Similarly, we know Molag Bal can torture souls without them having a physical form. Pretty sure we've seen it done. If daedra recognize one another on a more-than-physical level, there's no reason they'd have to appear to look the same with each incarnation.

Again, are those assumptions based on something? Without facts, the cant be a discussion. I'm sure there's enough argonian fans to read fanfics about argonian master race, but the topic is called "lore discussion"...
For example, I'm wondering about sources on which you've based your theory.

ShedsHisTail

Where are you getting this idea that I'm trying to say Argonians are better? Also, I don't recall ever using the world "mundane." If I did then I certainly could have phrased whatever I said better. It seems you're the one elevating Argonians, if only in effort to knock them back down.

I'm not trying to say Argonians are special, or better; just fundamentally different as is evident.

Khajiiti relations to the moon happens anywhere on Nirn and cannot be severed, as far as I know, and aren't even similar to the Argonian/Hist bond. A Khajiit's relation to the moons, is more akin to the action of the tides, than an actual spiritual/psychic bond. There are no Khajiit who are amorphous mutants in form because there was no moon to determine how they'd be born. I suppose it's possible something like this could happen to a Khajiit born in one of the Oblivion planes; but as far as I know we haven't seen that.

Bosmer being changed by a divine being isn't relevant because my whole point is that there is no divinity involved in the Argonian soul-recycling process. It's literally the opposite of what I'm saying. The Hist are not gods, yet they dictate everything about the Argonains. No other race is similarly subject to the whims of another being -on- Nirn.

And I'm not talking about anyone's "views" on the afterlife... I'm talking about the actual mechanical function of said afterlife. Argonians have no "afterlife," per se. The return to the Hist and are reborn. Everyone else goes somewhere to continue to exist elsewhere.


My only sources I can cite right now are anecdotal, personal experience and evidential extrapolation; similarly, I haven't seen you cite anywhere near as many sources as you've made definitive statements. I've been utterly transparent that much of what I'm saying is speculative.
There's very little written or understood about Argonian metaphysics.

dodgehopper_ESO

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

And now the origin on the Khajiit
[video=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTvl9TBhYzs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTvl9TBhYzs[/video]

Fish.
Fish.
Fish.
Fish.
Fish.
:P