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Cyrodiil, Cheating/Exploiting, & You
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_Chaos✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »It seems pretty clear to me, I don't understand the confusion. If you want to come into a keep or outpost you don't own, take down a wall or door. ZOS has spelled that out clearly now, and do otherwise at your own risk.
Except I've been leaping into keeps for two years, and it wasn't until THEY created the issue because they can't properly code gap closers like normal *@$%ing AAA MMORPG studios. I've quit the game because of mechanical flip flopping shenanigans such as these (Thanks Wrobel! Outstanding job bud)
To pretend this issue is black and white would be a practice of ignorance.
It is black and white. There wasn't a clearly defined rule before, and now there is.
This was brought up in the past to ZOS and they didn't say it was cheating at that point in time. It was only following the patch implementing the ludicrous super-hero gap closers that they deemed it "exploiting" --- which they knew before hand and refused to fix!
So here we have it folks, they implemented their own exploit that makes it as simple as slotting and using a gap closer, or using skills that have been working as intended for the past two years, and are now banning people who simply don't read the forums.
They can make login messages for Crown Store Item Updates, but god forbid they inform 95% of the PVP community that doesn't read the forums with a message when entering Cyrodiil that Leaping into keeps with a leap skill is an exploit, Teleporting into a keep with a teleport skill is an exploit, and using a mechanic that they knowingly implemented themselves is exploiting
For someone who "quit the game" you seem to care a lot about this.
Awesome rebuttal @yodased. Who would've thought that after investing thousands of hours into something one might be passionate and emotional about its rapidly deteriorating condition.'Chaos8 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wasn't trying to rebuke you. You are completely entitled to your opinion, but the level in which you seem to care confuses me.
If you are still so passionate and emotional about the game, we welcome you back. That is what I am saying.
You obviously care enough to be around it, why not be in it?Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.2 -
treatzSoul ShrivenThis. Awesome post, Hempyre!I'm personally very disappointed in this company for unbanning CE users after they "pleaded" their case or whatever it is they did. I see the same names on the leader boards and a few still in Cyro.
I don't care if they only used it "to shed light on this issue" or uninstalled it "scan my system I don't have it anymore" or whatever other BS they spew. The point is they took the time to install and setup this cheat, got caught, and were allowed back in the game.
This isnt an exploit or a situation where they didn't know any better, which would have justified a short term ban. This was a premeditated action designed to deceive the player base and company alike. These actions deserved, and still do, a permanent account ban if not a user ban such as Blizzard chooses to use.
I feel as though ZOS is saying to the rest of us that have played the game in accordance with the rules and with the intent of good sportsmanship and that have spent good money, that our efforts and our playtime is not valued by this company.
I sincerely hope to see this issue rectified for the rest of us, these players do not belong in this game any longer... Period!
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Take a stand, let the rest of this community know that we have a higher value than cheaters.
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Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »It seems pretty clear to me, I don't understand the confusion. If you want to come into a keep or outpost you don't own, take down a wall or door. ZOS has spelled that out clearly now, and do otherwise at your own risk.
Except I've been leaping into keeps for two years, and it wasn't until THEY created the issue because they can't properly code gap closers like normal *@$%ing AAA MMORPG studios. I've quit the game because of mechanical flip flopping shenanigans such as these (Thanks Wrobel! Outstanding job bud)
To pretend this issue is black and white would be a practice of ignorance.
It is black and white. There wasn't a clearly defined rule before, and now there is.
This was brought up in the past to ZOS and they didn't say it was cheating at that point in time. It was only following the patch implementing the ludicrous super-hero gap closers that they deemed it "exploiting" --- which they knew before hand and refused to fix!
So here we have it folks, they implemented their own exploit that makes it as simple as slotting and using a gap closer, or using skills that have been working as intended for the past two years, and are now banning people who simply don't read the forums.
They can make login messages for Crown Store Item Updates, but god forbid they inform 95% of the PVP community that doesn't read the forums with a message when entering Cyrodiil that Leaping into keeps with a leap skill is an exploit, Teleporting into a keep with a teleport skill is an exploit, and using a mechanic that they knowingly implemented themselves is exploiting
Yes. The mechanic they knowingly implemented themselves is exploiting. That's all anyone needs to know.1 -
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »It seems pretty clear to me, I don't understand the confusion. If you want to come into a keep or outpost you don't own, take down a wall or door. ZOS has spelled that out clearly now, and do otherwise at your own risk.
Except I've been leaping into keeps for two years, and it wasn't until THEY created the issue because they can't properly code gap closers like normal *@$%ing AAA MMORPG studios. I've quit the game because of mechanical flip flopping shenanigans such as these (Thanks Wrobel! Outstanding job bud)
To pretend this issue is black and white would be a practice of ignorance.
It is black and white. There wasn't a clearly defined rule before, and now there is.
This was brought up in the past to ZOS and they didn't say it was cheating at that point in time. It was only following the patch implementing the ludicrous super-hero gap closers that they deemed it "exploiting" --- which they knew before hand and refused to fix!
So here we have it folks, they implemented their own exploit that makes it as simple as slotting and using a gap closer, or using skills that have been working as intended for the past two years, and are now banning people who simply don't read the forums.
They can make login messages for Crown Store Item Updates, but god forbid they inform 95% of the PVP community that doesn't read the forums with a message when entering Cyrodiil that Leaping into keeps with a leap skill is an exploit, Teleporting into a keep with a teleport skill is an exploit, and using a mechanic that they knowingly implemented themselves is exploiting
Yes. The mechanic they knowingly implemented themselves is exploiting. That's all anyone needs to know.
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Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The Elder Wasted Potential Because The Developers Are Either Incapable Or Unable To Fix Anything That's Not Directly Related To Their Influx Of Money Online.4 -
Crown✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sandman929 wrote: »Yes. The mechanic they knowingly implemented themselves is exploiting. That's all anyone needs to know.
"Not working as intended" is not an "Exploit". That's the major issue that I have with this whole gap closing situation.
Using Cheat Engine or any other application that modifies the way the ESO game operates is exploiting.
Using a skill that is part of the game without any other action, combination, macro, etc is not an exploit, that's the skill working as it was designed and coded - but not necessarily as the ZOS people want it to. Calling it an exploit only makes them look stupid.
I work in a field that has my team working with actual exploits regularly. If we have to perform an analysis of an application, and there's a button on said application that you can click on, and clicking that button does something that the developers of the application don't like, then clicking that button IS NOT AN EXPLOIT. If I called it an exploit, I'd be laughed out of the board room. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom It would be nice to have you chime in here.Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com6 -
lepemetus✭✭Lava_Croft wrote: »The Elder Wasted Potential Because The Developers Are Either Incapable Or Unable To Fix Anything That's Not Directly Related To Their Influx Of Money Online.
Why is it such a surprise to everyone that they need to make money... it takes money to keep this virtual world alive. Always has, always will.
They have priorities, and you can feel free to disagree with those priorities, but you certainly don't know ALL of the details. Leave if you don't like it. Stay if you do.
At the end of the day, the responsibility falls on the players to keep this world alive. If those that have been around too long are too salty... so be it - thanks for your contributions, sorry you didn't last. (This isn't targeted at anyone, just general statement)
So. People are upset that leveraging a bug / unintended functionality is exploiting. Well, it is - even if it's not intentional.
Bugs / unintended functionality will ALWAYS be there, simply because it cannot be fixed immediately in every case. That will always leave room for players to make a choice about whether or not they want to roll the dice and try using known exploits.
Personally, I lose the enjoyment of the game entirely if I am purposefully cheating / gaining an advantage over others. I actively enjoy playing at a disadvantage, and I try my best to not exploit to the best of my abilities. Other players feel differently - but at the end of the day... I personally could not care less if other people are exploiting.
In general, in any video game, if another player is cheating and winning - it just makes me want to fight that much harder to beat them without cheating. I understand some players feel frustrated from repeated losses... but a loss at the hands of a cheater is not a loss in my view.
So what do you expect ZOS to do? The issue is in trying to determine who is exploiting accidentally or with minimal side effects vs. who is exploiting purposefully and maliciously - if you can figure out a process to figure that out and enforce a perfect justice system, please let ZOS know, I'm sure they'd love to hear it.
Anywho, just sharing my thoughts, feel free to ignore and continue ranting at how terrible everything everywhere is... but I just wanted to share my perspective. My wife and I absolutely enjoy this game, and so far the cheaters/exploiters have simply been incapable of preventing me from having fun. I'm sorry if they've affected you and ruined your enjoyment, and I sincerely hope you find a way to not let it get to you - because there will always be people that are against you for all sorts of reasons. Why grant them your time and effort? Just play
Edit: I have no idea about who was banned where when and for what reason, and honestly I don't care. If someone gets banned when their intentions were not malicious - then it is simply the side effect of an imperfect system. Bring it up to ZOS, discuss it with them, leave the pitchforks at home. If someone is clearly maliciously exploiting, then decide whether you want to ignore them or try to get evidence of this and report them... it's not the end of the world, we're talking about a video game here...Edited by lepemetus on August 25, 2016 5:43PM2 -
Mx13✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »Yes. The mechanic they knowingly implemented themselves is exploiting. That's all anyone needs to know.
"Not working as intended" is not an "Exploit". That's the major issue that I have with this whole gap closing situation.
Using Cheat Engine or any other application that modifies the way the ESO game operates is exploiting.
Using a skill that is part of the game without any other action, combination, macro, etc is not an exploit, that's the skill working as it was designed and coded - but not necessarily as the ZOS people want it to. Calling it an exploit only makes them look stupid.
I work in a field that has my team working with actual exploits regularly. If we have to perform an analysis of an application, and there's a button on said application that you can click on, and clicking that button does something that the developers of the application don't like, then clicking that button IS NOT AN EXPLOIT. If I called it an exploit, I'd be laughed out of the board room. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom It would be nice to have you chime in here.
Hmm..that sounds like the definition of an exploit, "taking advantage of a bug to cause unintended behavior on a software/hardware"(or something like that).
I mean, they said that is unintended so they are trying to fix this "bug" and if you are using it then you are exploiting, it doesnt matter if it just take the press of a button to cause this unintended behavior, its still an exploit.1 -
Crown✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hmm..that sounds like the definition of an exploit, "taking advantage of a bug to cause unintended behavior on a software/hardware"(or something like that).
I mean, they said that is unintended so they are trying to fix this "bug" and if you are using it then you are exploiting, it doesnt matter if it just take the press of a button to cause this unintended behavior, its still an exploit.
@Mx13 Lets take a similar example:
You go to a web page that is poorly coded, and click on the link to "The Store" because you want to buy something. Instead of taking you to the store, it shows you the list of all the people who have bought things including their names, addresses, credit card numbers, etc. and only then takes you to the store so that you can make your purchase.
Rather than fix their site, the company tells people in forums (that not all of their users read), that anyone who clicks their "The Store" button is a hacker who is exploiting their site, will have a law suit filed against them / their info given to the police due to hacking/exploiting.
Does that sound reasonable to you? If you clicked the button, are you a hacker/exploiter?Edited by Crown on August 25, 2016 6:32PMCrown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com4 -
Mx13✭✭✭Hmm..that sounds like the definition of an exploit, "taking advantage of a bug to cause unintended behavior on a software/hardware"(or something like that).
I mean, they said that is unintended so they are trying to fix this "bug" and if you are using it then you are exploiting, it doesnt matter if it just take the press of a button to cause this unintended behavior, its still an exploit.
@Mx13 Lets take a similar example:
You go to a web page that is poorly coded, and click on the link to "The Store" because you want to buy something. Instead of taking you to the store, it shows you the list of all the people who have bought things including their names, addresses, credit card numbers, etc. and only then takes you to the store so that you can make your purchase.
Rather than fix their site, the company tells people in forums (that not all of their users read), that anyone who clicks their "The Store" button is a hacker who is exploiting their site, will have a law suit filed against them / their info given to the police due to hacking/exploiting.
Does that sound reasonable to you? If you clicked the button, are you a hacker/exploiter?
Well if i make bad use of the information that i obtained with this bug(?) then i probably gonna get in trouble :P.
Just like in game, if i accidentaly get inside a keep because i used a gap closer then probably wont get in trouble but if i purposely use the gap closer to get into keeps to capture them/farm ap/capture scrolls/etc then its high likely i gonna get suspended/banned.
But yeah, i get your point but people were abusing this too much and thats why we ended up with these bans/suspensions.
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Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Bad comparison.Hmm..that sounds like the definition of an exploit, "taking advantage of a bug to cause unintended behavior on a software/hardware"(or something like that).
I mean, they said that is unintended so they are trying to fix this "bug" and if you are using it then you are exploiting, it doesnt matter if it just take the press of a button to cause this unintended behavior, its still an exploit.
@Mx13 Lets take a similar example:
You go to a web page that is poorly coded, and click on the link to "The Store" because you want to buy something. Instead of taking you to the store, it shows you the list of all the people who have bought things including their names, addresses, credit card numbers, etc. and only then takes you to the store so that you can make your purchase.
Rather than fix their site, the company tells people in forums (that not all of their users read), that anyone who clicks their "The Store" button is a hacker who is exploiting their site, will have a law suit filed against them / their info given to the police due to hacking/exploiting.
Does that sound reasonable to you? If you clicked the button, are you a hacker/exploiter?
You are overlooking the fact that by playing ESO, you agree to the Terms of Service as laid out by ZOS. The ToS is pretty clear on what isn't allowed in relation to exploiting bugs. The problem comes from ZOS' standards, which seem to be in a near liquid state, always changing, rarely enforced. Starting to randomly ban people after there has been jumping into keeps for over two years is something that is hard to understand no matter from what perspective you look at it.
Edited by Lava_Croft on August 25, 2016 7:16PM2 -
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Lava_Croft wrote: »The Elder Wasted Potential Because The Developers Are Either Incapable Or Unable To Fix Anything That's Not Directly Related To Their Influx Of Money Online.
Why is it such a surprise to everyone that they need to make money... it takes money to keep this virtual world alive. Always has, always will.
They have priorities, and you can feel free to disagree with those priorities, but you certainly don't know ALL of the details. Leave if you don't like it. Stay if you do.
At the end of the day, the responsibility falls on the players to keep this world alive. If those that have been around too long are too salty... so be it - thanks for your contributions, sorry you didn't last. (This isn't targeted at anyone, just general statement)
So. People are upset that leveraging a bug / unintended functionality is exploiting. Well, it is - even if it's not intentional.
Bugs / unintended functionality will ALWAYS be there, simply because it cannot be fixed immediately in every case. That will always leave room for players to make a choice about whether or not they want to roll the dice and try using known exploits.
Personally, I lose the enjoyment of the game entirely if I am purposefully cheating / gaining an advantage over others. I actively enjoy playing at a disadvantage, and I try my best to not exploit to the best of my abilities. Other players feel differently - but at the end of the day... I personally could not care less if other people are exploiting.
In general, in any video game, if another player is cheating and winning - it just makes me want to fight that much harder to beat them without cheating. I understand some players feel frustrated from repeated losses... but a loss at the hands of a cheater is not a loss in my view.
So what do you expect ZOS to do? The issue is in trying to determine who is exploiting accidentally or with minimal side effects vs. who is exploiting purposefully and maliciously - if you can figure out a process to figure that out and enforce a perfect justice system, please let ZOS know, I'm sure they'd love to hear it.
Anywho, just sharing my thoughts, feel free to ignore and continue ranting at how terrible everything everywhere is... but I just wanted to share my perspective. My wife and I absolutely enjoy this game, and so far the cheaters/exploiters have simply been incapable of preventing me from having fun. I'm sorry if they've affected you and ruined your enjoyment, and I sincerely hope you find a way to not let it get to you - because there will always be people that are against you for all sorts of reasons. Why grant them your time and effort? Just play
Edit: I have no idea about who was banned where when and for what reason, and honestly I don't care. If someone gets banned when their intentions were not malicious - then it is simply the side effect of an imperfect system. Bring it up to ZOS, discuss it with them, leave the pitchforks at home. If someone is clearly maliciously exploiting, then decide whether you want to ignore them or try to get evidence of this and report them... it's not the end of the world, we're talking about a video game here...
The thing is, gap closers are functioning now exactly as ZOS intended them to function. If you recall, Wrobel stated that all gap closers will "now function like teleports". Wrobel simply removed all of the ground-locked pathfinding gap closer code because he'd butchered it beyond repair, and copy/pasta'd ambush/dragon leap code onto everything.
If you recall, teleports have functioned since beta to let people get over keep walls, ZOS has known this for almost 3 years. You may think that gap closing over walls shouldn't be allowed, and I totally agree with that, but the onus lies on ZOS to fix the skills in some way.
And that's not even getting into the issue of a completely nonexistent notification system to inform players that they will be banned for gap closing over walls. Literally every other MMO I have ever played has important announcements like this displayed in a pop up menu of some sort on the launcher or in game.1 -
Crown✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lava_Croft wrote: »Bad comparison. You are overlooking the fact that by playing ESO, you agree to the Terms of Service as laid out by ZOS. The ToS is pretty clear on what isn't allowed in relation to exploiting bugs. The problem comes from ZOS' standards, which seem to be in a near liquid state, always changing, rarely enforced. Starting to randomly ban people after there has been jumping into keeps for over two years is something that is hard to understand no matter from what perspective you look at it.
@Lava_Croft I believe that I've been misunderstood. I'm not objecting to ZOS not wanting people to gap close across non-contiguous gaps (even though I think that's ridiculous), I'm objecting to their method for trying to prevent people from doing so. That method being the declaration that using a gap closer is "an exploit" is indicative of gross incompetence on the part of.. someone..
My interpretation of ZOS' response to date is, "We made a mistake on how gap closers work across non-contiguous paths, and we have no way to correct it anytime soon. As a way to prevent people from doing things that have been working since beta (because too many people are whining about them now and someone decided that we would look good by pretending that we care about this topic) we are exercising our right under the T&C to declare that anyone using a gap closer to move over a gap that is not a continuous path all at the same height is going to be banned." Now, they can't really do that and not look like complete idiots, so they've taken the Lumbergh method and gone ahead and called it an exploit.Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com1 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Terms of service cannot and do not rewrite your or other people basic rights. Agreeing with ToS in multiple countries even don't have legal force until it wasn't signed by hands of both sides. So ZOS plays with fire when ban people for nothing.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Bad comparison.Hmm..that sounds like the definition of an exploit, "taking advantage of a bug to cause unintended behavior on a software/hardware"(or something like that).
I mean, they said that is unintended so they are trying to fix this "bug" and if you are using it then you are exploiting, it doesnt matter if it just take the press of a button to cause this unintended behavior, its still an exploit.
@Mx13 Lets take a similar example:
You go to a web page that is poorly coded, and click on the link to "The Store" because you want to buy something. Instead of taking you to the store, it shows you the list of all the people who have bought things including their names, addresses, credit card numbers, etc. and only then takes you to the store so that you can make your purchase.
Rather than fix their site, the company tells people in forums (that not all of their users read), that anyone who clicks their "The Store" button is a hacker who is exploiting their site, will have a law suit filed against them / their info given to the police due to hacking/exploiting.
Does that sound reasonable to you? If you clicked the button, are you a hacker/exploiter?
You are overlooking the fact that by playing ESO, you agree to the Terms of Service as laid out by ZOS. The ToS is pretty clear on what isn't allowed in relation to exploiting bugs. The problem comes from ZOS' standards, which seem to be in a near liquid state, always changing, rarely enforced. Starting to randomly ban people after there has been jumping into keeps for over two years is something that is hard to understand no matter from what perspective you look at it.Edited by Sugaroverdose on August 25, 2016 8:25PM1 -
LegendaryChef✭✭✭✭✭As of 26/8/16 it is still possible to ambush into keeps from the outer wall.
I don't personally use it because I'm not really willing to risk my months of play time to get banned for zos' own coding failure but I know where and how it's done.
So I propose now, if zos really are caring about this kind of stuff, if I am contacted by any of the devs in private I will explain how it is still possible so you can fix this ASAP. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBrunoZzoro/Elliot Brown/Baldy ~Kitesquad/Noricum~
PC EU.
Spider mount was the only good part about morrowind release.0 -
Crown✭✭✭✭✭
✭LegendaryChef wrote: »As of 26/8/16 it is still possible to ambush into keeps from the outer wall.
Most of us are aware of that, and it's rather obvious that you have to put in effort from specific locations to do so.
The main point that people have issue with is once you're inside a keep, gap closing from the third floor postern to above the door of the inner - which is clear line of sight and has worked / been used since beta.
Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com2 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Should's and Shouldn'ts....gap closing into keeps and outposts is an exploit as determined by the game creators. If people want to keep doing it, that's fine, but their powerful arguments probably won't stop the ban hammer if ZOS decides to swing.0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »Yes. The mechanic they knowingly implemented themselves is exploiting. That's all anyone needs to know.
"Not working as intended" is not an "Exploit". That's the major issue that I have with this whole gap closing situation.
Using Cheat Engine or any other application that modifies the way the ESO game operates is exploiting.
Using a skill that is part of the game without any other action, combination, macro, etc is not an exploit, that's the skill working as it was designed and coded - but not necessarily as the ZOS people want it to. Calling it an exploit only makes them look stupid.
I work in a field that has my team working with actual exploits regularly. If we have to perform an analysis of an application, and there's a button on said application that you can click on, and clicking that button does something that the developers of the application don't like, then clicking that button IS NOT AN EXPLOIT. If I called it an exploit, I'd be laughed out of the board room. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom It would be nice to have you chime in here.
I think you may be trying to force a comparison between two things that are not the same. In an online game/competitive environment it makes sense to punish people for cheating. Whether it is an exploit or not comes down to semantics, but if you purposefully gap close into a keep, you are cheating.
The only thing ZOS did wrong was allowing gapclosing into keeps to become accepted behavior for years before suddenly wanting to ban people for it.
V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
Crown✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You're right and I am, though they are very close things and it's as close as I can get to making what I consider a very important point about mislabelling.timidobserver wrote: »I think you may be trying to force a comparison between two things that are not the same.
I agree 100%timidobserver wrote: »In an online game/competitive environment it makes sense to punish people for cheating.
This is where we disagree.. If they are punishing people for "exploiting" based on a wrongful definition that something is "an exploit" then they are in the wrong.timidobserver wrote: »Whether it is an exploit or not comes down to semantics
If they are punishing people for "cheating" as they define cheating then I have no argument with that. Let them officially declare that they consider gap closing from the outer wall to the top of the door "cheating". Let it be done in a way that ensures that everyone knows about it, and they will have done their job properly.timidobserver wrote: »but if you purposefully gap close into a keep, you are cheating.
There are a lot of other things wrong, but even Wheeler stated clearly in one of the ESO Live episodes (per what someone wrote a lot earlier) that when they changed the mechanism for other gap closers to work properly over non-contiguous ground, it was done purposefully. I've never seen them admit to making a mistake, and calling this "exploiting now" is rather like a child claiming "I didn't do it - it's someone else's fault". It's their game and they can do what they want. As a player, we are all free to call them out on their mistakes even if they won't admit it.timidobserver wrote: »The only thing ZOS did wrong was allowing gap closing into keeps to become accepted behavior for years before suddenly wanting to ban people for it.
I'm actually having fun debating this point..Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com2 -
Siphoneer✭✭✭Dude sometimes my game glitches out and I spawn underground or something, do I get banned for that?1
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timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
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You're right and I am, though they are very close things and it's as close as I can get to making what I consider a very important point about mislabelling.timidobserver wrote: »I think you may be trying to force a comparison between two things that are not the same.
I agree 100%timidobserver wrote: »In an online game/competitive environment it makes sense to punish people for cheating.
This is where we disagree.. If they are punishing people for "exploiting" based on a wrongful definition that something is "an exploit" then they are in the wrong.timidobserver wrote: »Whether it is an exploit or not comes down to semantics
If they are punishing people for "cheating" as they define cheating then I have no argument with that. Let them officially declare that they consider gap closing from the outer wall to the top of the door "cheating". Let it be done in a way that ensures that everyone knows about it, and they will have done their job properly.timidobserver wrote: »but if you purposefully gap close into a keep, you are cheating.
There are a lot of other things wrong, but even Wheeler stated clearly in one of the ESO Live episodes (per what someone wrote a lot earlier) that when they changed the mechanism for other gap closers to work properly over non-contiguous ground, it was done purposefully. I've never seen them admit to making a mistake, and calling this "exploiting now" is rather like a child claiming "I didn't do it - it's someone else's fault". It's their game and they can do what they want. As a player, we are all free to call them out on their mistakes even if they won't admit it.timidobserver wrote: »The only thing ZOS did wrong was allowing gap closing into keeps to become accepted behavior for years before suddenly wanting to ban people for it.
I'm actually having fun debating this point..
I don't really care about arguing definitions. Once it is declared to be cheating, I am good stopping right there. If you want to go into the fine details of what exploit means that is on you.
I agree completely on making people aware. Most people are pretty used to people hopping into keeps. It has been common place for a long time from when every DK was doing it with Dragon Leap. They should probably find some way to push this information in the actual game rather than the forum.
Making gap closers work properly over non-contigious ground was done on purpose. This means that you can gap close over a pebble without having your skill bars lock up. Allowing them to bypass keep defenses obviously was not done on purpose.
Edited by timidobserver on August 26, 2016 5:40PMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)1 -
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm almost tempted to say that ZOS did zero in game testing, but at this point I'd lean more towards they just didn't give a F. The thing is Wrobel essentially just copied the pathing code from ambush/leap and dumped it on every single gap closer. There is literally know way he couldn't have known what this would enable.timidobserver wrote: »Making gap closers work properly over non-contigious ground was done on purpose. This means that you can gap close over a pebble without having your skill bars lock up. Allowing them to bypass keep defenses obviously was not done on purpose.
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rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭HoloYoitsu wrote: »
I'm almost tempted to say that ZOS did zero in game testing, but at this point I'd lean more towards they just didn't give a F. The thing is Wrobel essentially just copied the pathing code from ambush/leap and dumped it on every single gap closer. There is literally know way he couldn't have known what this would enable.timidobserver wrote: »Making gap closers work properly over non-contigious ground was done on purpose. This means that you can gap close over a pebble without having your skill bars lock up. Allowing them to bypass keep defenses obviously was not done on purpose.
Highly doubt that is true.
Being that gap closer charges now don't remotely behave like teleport strike at all.
I regularly see people charging from extreme distances, over stuff they shouldn't be able to... around trees, through palisades. I see the macro scum using channels while in the air flying to their target. Ambush never ever worked that well and now fails on any fair distance or moving about stuff target so often it's a joke.
If the code was copy/pasta'd they would preform similarly, and they don't. You could never teleport directly to keep walls with ambush either... The only broken thing is though doors (which you can't control).
If you would "end up out of range" on the completion of the charge... it charges anyways. If you would "end up out of range" on ambush it just fails. I know this will summon the bs video of charges failing... but lol ambush fails so often at range it's a total joke.
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Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Teleport Strike has a slight cast time, which is one of the main reasons why it often 'fails'. Before you are done casting, the target has moved out of range.0 -
Karivaa✭✭✭✭✭If I am on Xbox and record footage of Cyradiil exploits, how do I send it to Zos from my Xbox?0
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Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't know if anyone at ZOS checks in with this post anymore, but I have a question regarding the bypassing of siege mechanics via gap closers.
Do towers at resources fall under the rule pertaining to siege mechanics? To me, they seem like nothing more than terrain. There's no need to go into a tower to take the resource, so are resource towers under the umbrella of core game mechanics.
Asking because I teleported, somewhat horizontally, onto one last night, and then jumped off. But is the tower anything more than the woodpile at a lumbermill...it's not something that must be sieged to capture?0 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Which brings up another curious point about gapcloser exploiting and siege mechanics: After, for instance, my faction captures the resource, don't we own that tower? Is it prohibited to gapclose into your own resource tower? It's all a bit hazy.
Gap closing enemy keep walls or outpost walls is crystal clearly bypassing intended mechanics for siege and capture, but there's nothing to capture in a resource tower, and it gets even muddier when it's technically your tower.Edited by Sandman929 on August 31, 2016 8:26PM0 -
pogopwns_ESO✭✭✭Can we investigate why people seem to be able to CC you right after you break free from Rebash? and unbreakable CC exploits? been happening a lot lately when fighting 1vX when 1 has a sword/board. also ambush/lotus spam renders players unable to dodge roll occasionally... Fix it @ZOS_GinaBruno because they know what they are doing or they wouldn't be doing it constantly.1
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Crown✭✭✭✭✭
✭@pogopwns_ESO The issue with power bash has been around since 1.4 or so. You can perma-cc a player if you time things right.Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
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