Official Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Balance

Maztiax

Tdroid wrote: »

the_man_of_steal wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno please please please give Khajits more stam. Please.

No, please don't do that mistake again. They are already one of the two best races for stamina damage dealers in PvE. They don't need to be the undisputed best race for that.

Anyway, with the next round of natch potes, I hope we will see the races more balanced. Doubt it though. Orcs and Nords will remain pretty pointless to play as. Sigh.

but pve is a joke and doesn't matter, see this is why everyone hates pve players because their constant whining ruins pvp

Tdroid

Maztiax wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

the_man_of_steal wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno please please please give Khajits more stam. Please.

No, please don't do that mistake again. They are already one of the two best races for stamina damage dealers in PvE. They don't need to be the undisputed best race for that.

Anyway, with the next round of natch potes, I hope we will see the races more balanced. Doubt it though. Orcs and Nords will remain pretty pointless to play as. Sigh.

but pve is a joke and doesn't matter, see this is why everyone hates pve players because their constant whining ruins pvp

Having balanced racials won't ruin PvP either. Then again, my idea of balanced racials seem to be very different from ZOS'. Their idea is having a few races with clearly superior ones, and mine is not having any combat related ones.

Shadesofkin

Maztiax wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

the_man_of_steal wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno please please please give Khajits more stam. Please.

No, please don't do that mistake again. They are already one of the two best races for stamina damage dealers in PvE. They don't need to be the undisputed best race for that.

Anyway, with the next round of natch potes, I hope we will see the races more balanced. Doubt it though. Orcs and Nords will remain pretty pointless to play as. Sigh.

but PVP is a joke and doesn't matter, see this is why everyone hates PVP players because their constant whining ruins PVE

Fixed it for you.

Ashtaris

Maztiax wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

the_man_of_steal wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno please please please give Khajits more stam. Please.

No, please don't do that mistake again. They are already one of the two best races for stamina damage dealers in PvE. They don't need to be the undisputed best race for that.

Anyway, with the next round of natch potes, I hope we will see the races more balanced. Doubt it though. Orcs and Nords will remain pretty pointless to play as. Sigh.

but pve is a joke and doesn't matter, see this is why everyone hates pve players because their constant whining ruins pvp

LOL. I suppose the "No Stam Regen While Blocking" change came about because all the PVE NPC's and Boss monsters were complaining about perma-blocking?

Destruent

Ashtaris wrote: »

Maztiax wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

the_man_of_steal wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno please please please give Khajits more stam. Please.

No, please don't do that mistake again. They are already one of the two best races for stamina damage dealers in PvE. They don't need to be the undisputed best race for that.

Anyway, with the next round of natch potes, I hope we will see the races more balanced. Doubt it though. Orcs and Nords will remain pretty pointless to play as. Sigh.

but pve is a joke and doesn't matter, see this is why everyone hates pve players because their constant whining ruins pvp

LOL. I suppose the "No Stam Regen While Blocking" change came about because all the PVE NPC's and Boss monsters were complaining about perma-blocking?

Bad example, they already said, they changed it bc how easy tanking in pve was and how strong permablockbuilds were in pvp. And tbh, this change has improved tanking without making it hard

Personofsecrets

Destruent wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Maztiax wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

the_man_of_steal wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno please please please give Khajits more stam. Please.

No, please don't do that mistake again. They are already one of the two best races for stamina damage dealers in PvE. They don't need to be the undisputed best race for that.

Anyway, with the next round of natch potes, I hope we will see the races more balanced. Doubt it though. Orcs and Nords will remain pretty pointless to play as. Sigh.

but pve is a joke and doesn't matter, see this is why everyone hates pve players because their constant whining ruins pvp

LOL. I suppose the "No Stam Regen While Blocking" change came about because all the PVE NPC's and Boss monsters were complaining about perma-blocking?

Bad example, they already said, they changed it bc how easy tanking in pve was and how strong permablockbuilds were in pvp. And tbh, this change has improved tanking without making it hard

No, the nerf hasn't improved tanking.

Shadesofkin

With the updated 2.5 Patch notes can I assume that Dunmer Flame Damage is still not functioning past the first point allocated? If this is the case the Dunmer will cease to be a functional choice for PvE DPS on mDK for anyone wishing to maximize their damage output. I'd prefer that didn't happen despite having a fully leveled Altmer mDK. I'm a fan of Dark Elves and have been since Daggerfall.

SirCritical

Bosmer would need that pickpocketing bonus more than the 'already-PvE-masterrace-in-all-aspects' Khajiit.

Aidanp02

More ideas for argonians:
Give them Physical Resistance with the poison and disease resistance
Take away 9% Max Health and give them 2/3/5% Max Magicka and 2/3/5% Max Stamina
Change the Resourceful passive to increase Magicka and Stamina Recovery by 2/4/6% and have a 1/2/5% chance on any light or heavy attack to deal half the normal damage of the attack which in turn gives you back 3/5/7% of your Max Stamina or Magicka

Van_0S

Well, this thread is pointless ,now. I doubt the devs will make any changes to the racial passives.
Only 4 days left for the next patch.

Jar_Ek

Yeah they decided the changes before posting the thread and then tweaked their changes as little as possible and then forgot about it all.

dodgehopper_ESO

Tdroid wrote: »

Kronuxx wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

I honestly don't even know why I'm even bothering with continuing this discussion anyway. It's not like anybody from ZOS is going to acknowledge this thread or any of the others, and the discussions within. They've already called it a day on this patch. I don't even know why they have feedback threads in the first place if they aren't interested in the feedback the players give them.

Yeah, they seem perfectly content to simply ignore the fact that certain races in their game are simply pointless to choose from a gameplay perspective.

Best thing they could do, in my opinion, is to remove all combat related racial passives and instead have flavor based ones. That would balance the races immediately.

To be honest, I disagree. I think the combat racials bring a unique perspective into the game that allows for some interesting build diversity. It just requires people to stop following cookie-cutter FOTM builds and use that unique brains of theirs to think outside of the box. In fact, I think most races got some decent upgrades. The only ones who probably still need some love are Nords and Argonians (yes still), and maybe Bosmer by making their poison resistance more relevant to end game (bump it up to about ~3000. That's about 4% damage mitigation from poison).

To note: In physical resistance about 3k roughly is about 4% damage mitigation as we know that ~33K physical and spell resist is hard cap, so this is being extrapolated towards poison.

The problems are that 1) some races have far superior racials than others, to the point where they are simply the best choice for X style of character. And 2) the racials pigeonhold races to certain builds.

A 10% increase in your primary attribtue is a big deal. So is the sustain bonuses, which are arguably even more powerful. Coupled with the removal of softcaps which skyrocketed the value of Max Stamina and Max Magicka compared to Max Health.

It is not just about avoiding flavor of the month stuff, it is the fact that if I play a Nord, my character is inferior to any of the stamina races for damage, magicka races for healer and damage and has less defense than the Imperials for tanking. If I play a Breton, I am inferior on sustain and damage to an Altmer.

Removing the combat bonuses will give push the game away from punishing people wanting unorthodox race/build choices. Play how you want and all of that. Bonuses like increased drink duration or whatever other utility they come up with seem fine with me, but the combat stuff is needlessly punishing players for picking the "wrong" races.

And, fair enough, maybe you have some cool or good character of suboptimal races. Problem is, however, is that your character will simply be better with an optimal race, at least in PvE. PvP is more forgiving about this sort of thing, I think. Redguards and Khajiit with their damage and sustain will always be better as stamina builds, because those two things are simply more powerful for a stamina character than a health bonus which will be underwhelming at best, because of the lower health number you have. But, even if it wasn't, it would still be worse because sustain and damage is better.

That is why I am in favor of removing combat bonuses entirely. Or at least nerf them so hard into the ground that they don't affect gameplay.

I'll reiterate an idea of mine: Make all racial bonuses a fixed amount (tied to cp/level). In other words a CP 501 Nord would get +3500 health, and say +300 Health Recovery instead of percentage bonuses. Bretons would get +4000 Magic. Altmer would get a bonus elemental damage AMOUNT say +300 Lightning damage. I'm just tossing numbers out but you get the idea. If you play the wrong 'build' it won't hurt as much and in the case of attribute bonuses, +magic could actually be useful. This would also deal with the reasons Race is a problem in the first place, since the attributes remained the same but overcharging/softcaps were removed. This solution is pretty obvious really, and I can't understand why they refuse to change it. Actually, it pisses me off a little bit, since my solution would solve the problem and a lot of Argonians would not be disappearing from the game soon.

dodgehopper_ESO

twistedmonk wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Prior to Skyrim, classes existed.

To this day I believe it was a failing on their part not to have classes be entirely made up of passives with various different skills bought with skill points that could then be boosted by said passives but purchasable by nearly anyone.

yeah I can agree with that. every character should have access to any skill line and customize their character how they want.

I thought spellcrafting was a step into fixing the original design flaw with the 4 classes, but that hasn't happened either (looks like it got abandoned).

removing softcaps was another mistake. its the only way to keep things in check so you don't find the weird combination of skills/gear that skyrocket your damage to where you are 1-shotting everything (and hence they put int he 50% damage reduction across the board as a hack fix - which is a joke)

+1.
Ding ding ding ding ding!!! Give this man a cigar, he gets a lot of my concerns all rolled into all into a succinct thought.

dodgehopper_ESO

Destruent wrote: »

Tyhar wrote: »

I wish they would just remove stat bonuses from racials. If not that, then make them a flat value and not %. Like for Imperials give 1200 health and 1000 stamina instead of 12% health and 10% stamina. As the game progresses and the CP cap/gear cap gets raised, these % bonuses are only going to keep adding to the imbalance.

Not really, they just look better. But due to dimishing returns, they'll loose in efficiency the more magicka/stamina you already have.

Exactly. This would mean they could be useful to min-maxers, but these same attributes could also be useful in rounding out attributes with race instead of glyphs. This would give more variety, and that's a good thing.

Shadesofkin

Thankfully we've been told that the bug involving Dunmer will be repaired by live.

So yeah, I'm happy with every change if that's the case.

Tdroid

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

Kronuxx wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

I honestly don't even know why I'm even bothering with continuing this discussion anyway. It's not like anybody from ZOS is going to acknowledge this thread or any of the others, and the discussions within. They've already called it a day on this patch. I don't even know why they have feedback threads in the first place if they aren't interested in the feedback the players give them.

Yeah, they seem perfectly content to simply ignore the fact that certain races in their game are simply pointless to choose from a gameplay perspective.

Best thing they could do, in my opinion, is to remove all combat related racial passives and instead have flavor based ones. That would balance the races immediately.

To be honest, I disagree. I think the combat racials bring a unique perspective into the game that allows for some interesting build diversity. It just requires people to stop following cookie-cutter FOTM builds and use that unique brains of theirs to think outside of the box. In fact, I think most races got some decent upgrades. The only ones who probably still need some love are Nords and Argonians (yes still), and maybe Bosmer by making their poison resistance more relevant to end game (bump it up to about ~3000. That's about 4% damage mitigation from poison).

To note: In physical resistance about 3k roughly is about 4% damage mitigation as we know that ~33K physical and spell resist is hard cap, so this is being extrapolated towards poison.

The problems are that 1) some races have far superior racials than others, to the point where they are simply the best choice for X style of character. And 2) the racials pigeonhold races to certain builds.

A 10% increase in your primary attribtue is a big deal. So is the sustain bonuses, which are arguably even more powerful. Coupled with the removal of softcaps which skyrocketed the value of Max Stamina and Max Magicka compared to Max Health.

It is not just about avoiding flavor of the month stuff, it is the fact that if I play a Nord, my character is inferior to any of the stamina races for damage, magicka races for healer and damage and has less defense than the Imperials for tanking. If I play a Breton, I am inferior on sustain and damage to an Altmer.

Removing the combat bonuses will give push the game away from punishing people wanting unorthodox race/build choices. Play how you want and all of that. Bonuses like increased drink duration or whatever other utility they come up with seem fine with me, but the combat stuff is needlessly punishing players for picking the "wrong" races.

And, fair enough, maybe you have some cool or good character of suboptimal races. Problem is, however, is that your character will simply be better with an optimal race, at least in PvE. PvP is more forgiving about this sort of thing, I think. Redguards and Khajiit with their damage and sustain will always be better as stamina builds, because those two things are simply more powerful for a stamina character than a health bonus which will be underwhelming at best, because of the lower health number you have. But, even if it wasn't, it would still be worse because sustain and damage is better.

That is why I am in favor of removing combat bonuses entirely. Or at least nerf them so hard into the ground that they don't affect gameplay.

I'll reiterate an idea of mine: Make all racial bonuses a fixed amount (tied to cp/level). In other words a CP 501 Nord would get +3500 health, and say +300 Health Recovery instead of percentage bonuses. Bretons would get +4000 Magic. Altmer would get a bonus elemental damage AMOUNT say +300 Lightning damage. I'm just tossing numbers out but you get the idea. If you play the wrong 'build' it won't hurt as much and in the case of attribute bonuses, +magic could actually be useful. This would also deal with the reasons Race is a problem in the first place, since the attributes remained the same but overcharging/softcaps were removed. This solution is pretty obvious really, and I can't understand why they refuse to change it. Actually, it pisses me off a little bit, since my solution would solve the problem and a lot of Argonians would not be disappearing from the game soon.

If it has the numbers you suggest, nothing would change. Just FYI. But, in general, a flat bonus of, say, 1000 to a stat wouldn't be a problem. Would be about the same as a +3% bonus now, which is nothing. It would fall in line with my preferred solution: Nerf every race so hard into the ground that it has no effect on combat.

That, or bring back the soft-caps already. Curiously enough, I didn't seem to hear as much about unbalanced racials with the soft-caps in place.

Junkogen

I don't know what I'm in favor of now. I don't want to race change only to have them nerf passives into meaninglessness. I would probably quit the game.

Nothing really happened with the passives. I was expecting a lot more. The races that were subpar are still subpar and the Titans are still Titans. The only thing different now is that we can balance ourselves at a rather steep cost of crowns. Man, they don't make it easy....

I just don't think I can take the frustration of playing as an Argonian anymore. I realized that I am a min/maxer more than I thought or wished to be. 3% max magicka is a pittance, not much of an "offensive" bonus. They gave Nords 6% stamina, but felt Argonians should stay at 3%? They did the exact same thing when they increased the max health %, shorted the lizards. I don't get. They really do think Argonians have something special that I just don't see. I've played as an Argonian since launch. I know how and when their passives are useful and they are limited. ZOS obviously disagrees. I guess with the whole malubeth Templar and major mending metas maybe they'd be too strong.... I don't know. I play a NB, which lacks such burst heals or maybe i just dont know how to build properly to join the meta club.... I suppose if I were to run an Argonian in the future it would be as a magplar. Man... A lot of my original enthusiasm for the game is leaving. As the old saying goes, I guess time will tell.

PlagueMonk

Junkogen wrote: »

I don't know what I'm in favor of now. I don't want to race change only to have them nerf passives into meaninglessness. I would probably quit the game.

Nothing really happened with the passives. I was expecting a lot more. The races that were subpar are still subpar and the Titans are still Titans. The only thing different now is that we can balance ourselves at a rather steep cost of crowns. Man, they don't make it easy....

I just don't think I can take the frustration of playing as an Argonian anymore. I realized that I am a min/maxer more than I thought or wished to be. 3% max magicka is a pittance, not much of an "offensive" bonus. They gave Nords 6% stamina, but felt Argonians should stay at 3%? They did the exact same thing when they increased the max health %, shorted the lizards. I don't get. They really do think Argonians have something special that I just don't see. I've played as an Argonian since launch. I know how and when their passives are useful and they are limited. ZOS obviously disagrees. I guess with the whole malubeth Templar and major mending metas maybe they'd be too strong.... I don't know. I play a NB, which lacks such burst heals or maybe i just dont know how to build properly to join the meta club.... I suppose if I were to run an Argonian in the future it would be as a magplar. Man... A lot of my original enthusiasm for the game is leaving. As the old saying goes, I guess time will tell.

I keep telling everyone but they wont listen........./beckons you to come closer and whispers in your ear *Worbel and the other Devs in charge of making racial decisions are ALL Dark Elves*

Junkogen

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

I don't know what I'm in favor of now. I don't want to race change only to have them nerf passives into meaninglessness. I would probably quit the game.

Nothing really happened with the passives. I was expecting a lot more. The races that were subpar are still subpar and the Titans are still Titans. The only thing different now is that we can balance ourselves at a rather steep cost of crowns. Man, they don't make it easy....

I just don't think I can take the frustration of playing as an Argonian anymore. I realized that I am a min/maxer more than I thought or wished to be. 3% max magicka is a pittance, not much of an "offensive" bonus. They gave Nords 6% stamina, but felt Argonians should stay at 3%? They did the exact same thing when they increased the max health %, shorted the lizards. I don't get. They really do think Argonians have something special that I just don't see. I've played as an Argonian since launch. I know how and when their passives are useful and they are limited. ZOS obviously disagrees. I guess with the whole malubeHowTemplar and major mending metas maybe they'd be too strong.... I don't know. I play a NB, which lacks such burst heals or maybe i just dont know how to build properly to join the meta club.... I suppose if I were to run an Argonian in the future it would be as a magplar. Man... A lot of my original enthusiasm for the game is leaving. As the old saying goes, I guess time will tell.

I keep telling everyone but they wont listen........./beckons you to come closer and whispers in your ear *Worbel and the other Devs in charge of making racial decisions are ALL Dark Elves*

They're the only race in the Pact that makes sense. The saddest part of all this is that I'm actually considering changing to....an Altmer. I feel so scummy. It doesn't feel right. How did it come to this?

Carbonised

As a Dunmer magicka DK, I am somewhat disappointed in your racial changes for the Dunmer race

Argonians get a large buff to magic and healing. Some of this was needed, but still, a rather large buff.

Khajiit, already very useful, got an increased pickpocketing, which is nice. Also I cannot believe you even considered giving them max stamina. Who would even think that was a good idea?

Wood elves, already very powerful, get even more stamina, which is extremely good.

High elf get more exp, Bretons get more AP, and so on.

And what do Dunmer get? Lava damage halved. Seriously? Extremely useless, circumstancial and comical use at best. Unless you have the habit of falling down into lava pools constantly, this is a joke.

And frost and shock damage increased 2 %. Come on, are you trolling us here? Every Dunmer in this game is created to make use of the DK class, the Inferno staff, and otherwise utilize our + flame damage racial. Do you think people will start making Dunmer sorcerors, when an Altmer or Breton would still be better? For us Dragonknights, it is completely useless. None of the skills for magicka nor stamina are ice or shock, so basically you're giving us a buff that doesn't buff us in any single way.

Not only does it make zero sense in a lore perspective, Dunmer have nothing to do with shock or ice, it also seems trollish to give us a buff that isn't really a buff, when other classes get something that's either very useful or at least somewhat useful.

You asked what I feel about the race changes?`Well here are my thoughts, I'm disappointed through and through.

The Dragonknight class is already one of the most manhandled one, you keep nerfing it, changing things that didn't need to be changed, and ignoring things that needs attention. Apparently now my race is also going through the same treatment as my class. No thank you.

Iove

I'm sorry, but where is the change for Bretons?

When they removed soft caps, I was sure they would soon do racial balance to adjust for how suddenly racial bonuses mattered so much more, and how some races got so far ahead without soft caps while some got worse.

Something that stood out to me was how weak the Breton's 3% magicka reduction passive was after soft caps were gone. I can't believe, 1 whole skill point is still to be wasted per 1% magicka reduction? And this is a top tier racial passive?

Destruent

Lol....Dunmer is the strongest choice for most magicka-builds (now and after the patch), why should they change any of their racials? The extra frost/shock damage helps you, when you have to use force-pulse for ranged dps. That's more than i expected tbh.

jeedrzej

Dunmers are good enough
(I play as dunmer DK)

Carbonised

I'm not saying that Dunmer are weak, but why did they buff both Khajiit and Bosmer, who were arguably some of the best stam races as it is? At least with the reverted change, Khajiit still get better pickpocketing, while Bosmer get even more stamina.

Yeah, more damage on force pulse. Which I use like never. And which will now go up 2 % which is like, nothing.

At least they could have given us a boost to a skill, to something world related, something that made sense and felt at least somewhat useful. Or instead of increasing shock/frost damage, they could have upped the fire resistance, which is a bit on the low side.

And no, best magicka race is still Altmer (who also got a boost. Let me have that 1 % more exp please). Dunmer is only on par with Altmer for magDK. Breton is also better than Dunmer in many cases.

Just how many Dunmer magblades, templars and sorcerors do you see in this game? QED.

Destruent

Most PvE-manablades will change to dunmer (if they are not already) and templars also. They reverted the buff to khajiit and bosmer did deserve a buff. Breton tbh is the worst magicka-Race for DPS/Healing. Altmer is top for sorcs, whereas Dunmer is best for NB, Templar and DK.
The XP is kinda useless tbh as soon as you reach 531 CP you don't need any XP at all. All races got a semiusefull racial passive. I won't care too much about this. There will be a situation where you make use out of it (valkyn skoria for example ), but there are more situations where it is useless.

jeedrzej

Carbonised wrote: »

Just how many Dunmer magblades, templars and sorcerors do you see in this game? QED.

Well... I saw a lot of them.

bebynnag

Could somebody please provide a link to the updated changes for ALL races, it appears to be lost under an avalanche of threads about the changes,

thank you in advance

Destruent

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Could somebody please provide a link to the updated changes for ALL races, it appears to be lost under an avalanche of threads about the changes,

thank you in advance

Patchnotes 2.5 and 2.5.2 are your friend...

Junkogen

Destruent wrote: »

Most PvE-manablades will change to dunmer (if they are not already) and templars also. They reverted the buff to khajiit and bosmer did deserve a buff. Breton tbh is the worst magicka-Race for DPS/Healing. Altmer is top for sorcs, whereas Dunmer is best for NB, Templar and DK.
The XP is kinda useless tbh as soon as you reach 531 CP you don't need any XP at all. All races got a semiusefull racial passive. I won't care too much about this. There will be a situation where you make use out of it (valkyn skoria for example ), but there are more situations where it is useless.

What if you PvP? Breton and Altmer are still top choices. Your assessment of Breton is exaggerated. 10% boost to either stamina or magicka is still the best passive by far.

Destruent

Junkogen wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Most PvE-manablades will change to dunmer (if they are not already) and templars also. They reverted the buff to khajiit and bosmer did deserve a buff. Breton tbh is the worst magicka-Race for DPS/Healing. Altmer is top for sorcs, whereas Dunmer is best for NB, Templar and DK.
The XP is kinda useless tbh as soon as you reach 531 CP you don't need any XP at all. All races got a semiusefull racial passive. I won't care too much about this. There will be a situation where you make use out of it (valkyn skoria for example ), but there are more situations where it is useless.

What if you PvP? Breton and Altmer are still top choices. Your assessment of Breton is exaggerated. 10% boost to either stamina or magicka is still the best passive by far.

depends on your build and what you are focussing on. But even if 10% boost to stats is superior to everything, Altmer are stronger bc they get also 4% more elemental damage. For firebased build (or builds with only fire as elemental dmg) dunmer is stronger than altmer if you have more than 20% firedamage.
You seem to forget that 10% more stats is not 10% more dmg. It's more like 3...5%, depending on the build. For spell/weapon dmg-based builds it's less, for Stam/Magicka-based builds it is more.