[Permabans being lifted] ZOS how are we as a community dealing with exploits/hacking?

Pomaikai · May 2016

Not trying to pick a fight with you at all. It's just that so many posts of the "But he's my honest friend who doesn't hack", or "I was unfairly banned for hacking" posts popping up yesterday and today. Yes, a tiny portion of people might have been unfairly banned and should be going through proper channels to prove their innocence and have the bans lifted, but not the numbers as evidenced by all the posts here so far.

The fact that they were cheating in an offline game to give themselves an unfair advantage, is probably a good indicator that they would continue that practice elsewhere.

Now, an engine that mods an offline game to give one a new experience after beating it in vanilla mode the first time, thereby increasing the fun factor of the game is a whole other ball of wax.

But modding a game to make it easier to beat the first time? Yeah, that's cheating, and cheaters keep cheating.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · May 2016

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

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vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

This is a step in the right direction although it is important to realise that the endless ulti spam was not the only format this took so I hope these cheat detection have some way of server side checking and ESO client code checking so anyone actually hacking the game can be spotted.

Equally, anticipating those saying they were unfairly banned, it should not be something blunt like scanning the client PC for the existence of a cheat tool - you might capture those who hack their offline games which hurts no-one but them.

At this stage, as I am sure ZOS are realising, it is vital to get this right and not err in either direction so that confidence and trust can be regained.

I look forward to the announcement later which I shall hopefully read while exploring Anvil and Kvatch...

Here's the problem. The hack program that lets you cheat in ESO also supports cheating in other games. If you use it to cheat elsewhere, ZOS has to believe that you're going to use it to cheat in their game too. Don't use cheat programs if you want to play ESO. Heck, just don't use cheat programs AT ALL! I don't know what else to say, other than tough luck.

PS... This same cheat program can also be used as a crafting mat farming bot, as well as a grinding CP farming bot. Yes, it can be programmed to automatically grind delves for you! So even if some people weren't using it to cheat in PVP directly, they were still cheating in the game overall, and TOTALLY deserve to be permabanned.

Hmm, banning a bunch of probably honest players who happen to be messing with modding some other offline game is a good way to make this omni-shambles worse than it already is IMO. Now checking for *that* process running in parallel to ESO is another thing altogether that might make sense, assuming it is just the one possible one and not loads of variants... or actually checking ESO files for modifications before allowing client connectivity.

They should be focusing on either removing certain processing from the client end so it simply cannot be hacked or coming up with a slightly better method than what currently seems to be simply seeing who cast a couple of ultis too close together for the average... both because of the possible false positives and also because, as we know, the hacks were not just the ultimate ones, that was just the most visible of them... how will they capture speed hackers or levitators or people who have tweaks their stats in some way if all they do is scan for overuse of ultimates?

I fully agree on the need for bans - but this is a chance for ZOS to do it right and show us they are looking after the game and it's players properly.

If you're cheating in another game, then you're not an honest player.

And? We should ban anyone who ever cheated at a game? Really? That is what you are going with here?

Depends . Was it multiplayer ? PvP ? If so I'm all for installing cage doors on confession booths . Retroactive Justice , cross platform reform .

I certainly agree with bans for anyone caught cheating in this game. I just thought the whole if you are cheating in another game then you are not an honest player.

Because I would guess like 90% of the population has cheated on at least one game in their life. Online or off. That blanket statement makes a very large part of the population cheaters and worth banning.

Pomaikai · May 2016

I'll happily modify my statement to an extent. As kids, we do a lot of things we almost certainly shouldn't do, and quite often don't understand that doing those things is wrong. This is why kids are treated, or should be treated differently in the criminal justice system. The human brain doesn't finish fully developing until the late teens to early twenties, and it's those centers of right and wrong which seem to develop last. So yes, one might have cheated in games when one was younger, and then have outgrown that. Yep, I'll totally agree that is not only possible, but downright probable. I'm pretty sure we're all guilty of that. But there is definitely a point where that line gets crossed, and people just start always looking for the easy way out when playing games, or just living their lives, and that's cheating and wrong.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2016

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

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Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

This is a step in the right direction although it is important to realise that the endless ulti spam was not the only format this took so I hope these cheat detection have some way of server side checking and ESO client code checking so anyone actually hacking the game can be spotted.

Equally, anticipating those saying they were unfairly banned, it should not be something blunt like scanning the client PC for the existence of a cheat tool - you might capture those who hack their offline games which hurts no-one but them.

At this stage, as I am sure ZOS are realising, it is vital to get this right and not err in either direction so that confidence and trust can be regained.

I look forward to the announcement later which I shall hopefully read while exploring Anvil and Kvatch...

Here's the problem. The hack program that lets you cheat in ESO also supports cheating in other games. If you use it to cheat elsewhere, ZOS has to believe that you're going to use it to cheat in their game too. Don't use cheat programs if you want to play ESO. Heck, just don't use cheat programs AT ALL! I don't know what else to say, other than tough luck.

PS... This same cheat program can also be used as a crafting mat farming bot, as well as a grinding CP farming bot. Yes, it can be programmed to automatically grind delves for you! So even if some people weren't using it to cheat in PVP directly, they were still cheating in the game overall, and TOTALLY deserve to be permabanned.

Hmm, banning a bunch of probably honest players who happen to be messing with modding some other offline game is a good way to make this omni-shambles worse than it already is IMO. Now checking for *that* process running in parallel to ESO is another thing altogether that might make sense, assuming it is just the one possible one and not loads of variants... or actually checking ESO files for modifications before allowing client connectivity.

They should be focusing on either removing certain processing from the client end so it simply cannot be hacked or coming up with a slightly better method than what currently seems to be simply seeing who cast a couple of ultis too close together for the average... both because of the possible false positives and also because, as we know, the hacks were not just the ultimate ones, that was just the most visible of them... how will they capture speed hackers or levitators or people who have tweaks their stats in some way if all they do is scan for overuse of ultimates?

I fully agree on the need for bans - but this is a chance for ZOS to do it right and show us they are looking after the game and it's players properly.

If you're cheating in another game, then you're not an honest player.

And? We should ban anyone who ever cheated at a game? Really? That is what you are going with here?

Depends . Was it multiplayer ? PvP ? If so I'm all for installing cage doors on confession booths . Retroactive Justice , cross platform reform .

I certainly agree with bans for anyone caught cheating in this game. I just thought the whole if you are cheating in another game then you are not an honest player.

Because I would guess like 90% of the population has cheated on at least one game in their life. Online or off. That blanket statement makes a very large part of the population cheaters and worth banning.

I used a cork filled bat in baseball once in 1978 .

hamgatan · May 2016

I think ZOS/Bethesda's position on cheats has been clear for many many years already..

Or have you all forgotten this already?

A119AFDAB4F6993AF909BC90EA739E34502BE337

A119AFDAB4F6993AF909BC90EA739E34502BE337

Letho2469 · May 2016

I must admit this killed the game for me. I really loved playing it, but competetive online games that store sensitive data client side must be considered a faulty product from my point of view.
This functionality is part of the game's netcode, that can be considered it's core or brain. As far as i know it would require a rewrite of major parts of it's code. Can that be done at reasonable costs? WILL that be done by Zenimax? I'm afraid it's over.

Wreuntzylla · May 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

Give 'em the good ol' Stendarr's Hammer!

I'll take 2, please. No need to wrap them up.

Oh, and an awesome for you.

CombatPrayer · May 2016

hamgatan wrote: »

I think ZOS/Bethesda's position on cheats has been clear for many many years already..

Or have you all forgotten this already?

That is for a private game which I think it's nobody's business what one does in their own game that is offline. I wish this game had an offline option because I could be playing right now. Or if internet is out. Or because I feel more immersed when I am in the game on my own. But that is not how it is designed and I suspect that bethesda would have an entirely different view of cheating within this game and more specifically, in this game's multiplayer aspect.

There are always going to be cheaters. I remember when they were saying

If people are going into group events and cheating, then ban them. But privately

hamgatan wrote: »

I think ZOS/Bethesda's position on cheats has been clear for many many years already..

Or have you all forgotten this already?

Single player private game. Totally different and nobody's business what someone does in their game that impacts nobody else but them. However, in an MMORPG where you go into a group party, it's about the demoralizing experience of going in to have fun and having your butt handed to you because somebody thought it would be fun to pummel everyone for the LULZ or 'to out OTHER evil cheaters' or whatever the story is that is being told.

Giving a damn about someone cheating in their own single player gave is like caring about what sex acts someone has at their home. It's their business until they show up at a party and decide to a** *** a whole bunch of people who just wanted to have some fun. If someone wants to a** *** NPCs with their god modes because it's their kind of fun, so be it. It's when it involves other people who end up feeling demoralized and dispirited after having been a** *** that something has to be done.

If someone wants to cheat, it should never impact other player's games. But if they bring it to an event where it does, and people leave feeling as bad as all the players who were getting their butts handed to them, that sucks because it ruins other people's experience. I'm pretty sure bethesda would NOT be behind that. They have allowed mods because they see it as an advantage to ALL players who wish to use them. Those mods bring lots of FUN to OTHER gamers with everything from full quest lines to an over all more beautiful game. That benefits all who use it. That is the reason they support it. This, however, is the exact opposite of that, bringing misery and frustration to others. Pretty sure that is not what bethesda would support at all.

Zaldan · May 2016

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

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rokrdt05 wrote: »

I'm curious if they will be resetting Leaderboards with all the recent exploits. I don't think I've seen this mentioned.

Yes, though we need to chat with the Dev and Live teams about timing. We'll let everyone know what the plan is, tomorrow.

until this is fixed you might as well remove all rewards for leader boards and have them for "bragging rights" only as they're no indication of performance.

Refuse2GrowUp · May 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

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Attackopsn wrote: »

This kind of intentional exploitation and cheating is disgusting. This is the same behavior that ruined diablo on console platforms, such a shame to see players going out of their way to ruin a game.

Well to be fair their not trying to ruin the game well not all of them some are just trying to get @ZOS to fox their dam game.Can you blame them for that?

What kind of reasoning is that? Seems akin to saying you went on a shooting spree, murdering lots of innocent people, just to highlight the need for gun control laws.

No one is taking advantage of exploits or hacks to help the game. They are doing it because they are selfish, childish (insert your favorite expletive). This is true of the popular streamers who were using axeploit in PvP and PvE. It is true of those who has a dozen mundus stone buffs. It is true of those who used the banker mats exploit. It is true any of the myriad of exploits the game has had. Only this takes it one step further as it is not only flawed code permitting an exploit, but a genuine hack.

Rosveen · May 2016

Pomaikai wrote: »

Not trying to pick a fight with you at all. It's just that so many posts of the "But he's my honest friend who doesn't hack", or "I was unfairly banned for hacking" posts popping up yesterday and today. Yes, a tiny portion of people might have been unfairly banned and should be going through proper channels to prove their innocence and have the bans lifted, but not the numbers as evidenced by all the posts here so far.

The fact that they were cheating in an offline game to give themselves an unfair advantage, is probably a good indicator that they would continue that practice elsewhere.

Now, an engine that mods an offline game to give one a new experience after beating it in vanilla mode the first time, thereby increasing the fun factor of the game is a whole other ball of wax.

But modding a game to make it easier to beat the first time? Yeah, that's cheating, and cheaters keep cheating.

No, it's not. There is no such thing as cheating in a single player game, it is your own playground to use as you wish. This should be especially clear to TES fans, who are used to modding the hell out of their games for a very personalized experience. Everyone has different skills and preferences, there is absolutely nothing wrong with modifying a game's difficulty - either up or down - to make it more enjoyable.

I think we should refrain from equating any kind of single player modifications with hacks in a competitive online environment.

holosoul · May 2016

"I did it for the people, the people needed to know that people like me exist." -- Zazeer, ESOU 2016

Letho2469 · May 2016

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

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sadownik wrote: »

Heh 24 h ban and people jump with joy? And hmm... automated anti cheat system? So why now and not before?

The bans are permanent, not 24-hour bans. We just noted that we issued the bans within the last 24 hours. Also, our automated anti-cheat system was on, but we adjusted the parameters to more effectively catch the recent cheat behavior.

Hate to be a party pooper, but I'm really wondering how this software might work. Only checking players stats and actions in realtime would effectively catch this type of cheating, which can only be done by implementing a server side trust model into the game's netcode. I doubt rewriting it to move all sensitive data to the servers can be done at reasonable cost. Taking a time based random sample from the stats of the players, who are fighting in Cyrodiil will probably catch a few persons, but never all of them who are cheating. The probability of fighting legit players is simply too small for me in this case.

Really looking forward to your info tomorrow, but my confidence in your dev team's professionalism has been highly impaired.

Refuse2GrowUp · May 2016

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

Naming and shaming has legal issues attached to it, I have never heard of a gaming company or any company doing that. It's just not going to happen.

Actually, Blizzard publicly names and shames. They publish a ban list before Hearthstone tournaments listing those players who have been banned from the tournament and stating why they were banned. And, to put it in context, blizzard is a bigger company, and a simple game like Hearthstone has a larger player base. If Blizzard can do so, I am sure ESO could as well.

Thing is, the ESO staff lack testicular fortitude when it comes to enforcing the game. They are willing to ban bots, but let's face it, most bots are gold seller accounts...not actual players that might spend real money in the crown store. So, banning bots is easier for the company as the banned accounts wouldn't likely result in a revenue loss. Plus, bots were the subject of much of the bad publicity the game got at launch and thus they had to crack down for the game's survival. With the exception of bots, bans are a very rare thing. In fact, the recent banker exploit is the only mass ban I know of in the game's history (tho I started at console release so may lack knowledge of an earlier event), and even that was a half-assed ban as players got a small slap on the wrist, but got to keep multiple millions gold worth of ill-gotten gains. The ban merely encouraged most players to consider engaging in such activities next time an opportunity arises.

Simply, those players who were abusing axeploit, camo hunter, rearming trap, mulitple mundus (both times the exploit has occurred), etc should all have received some form of punishment and accounts should have been rolled back to when the exploit was first used by that person. Those that used the exploit to get top percentile PvP rewards, get on PvE leaderboards, or clear vMSA should have received a more severe punishment in addition to having their accounts rolled back to lose ill-gotten gains. Furthermore, those players teaching others how to use/benefit from the exploit, especially via twitch or Youtube, should receive harsh punishments and be made examples out of - don't promote your stream or youtube channel by teaching people how to ruin the game we all love.

And that brings us to this current issue. This takes the cake as it is an actual hack. Unequivocally, all players who used the hack should be perma banned. Period. And ZOS should be very public and open about the bans to demonstrate their commitment to maintaining order and discipline to protect the sportsmandship of PvP and sanctity of leaderboards.

I have known a lot of players who have left the game because of the myriad of exploits and ZOS seeming unwillingness to enforce rules or take action. Personally, it is one of the biggest things that push me away fro the game.

However, even with community support for bans, i still think ZOS will fail to take appropriate action. They will be too afraid to lose players and crown store income and too afraid to make difficult decisions which can subject them to criticism.

ИВАН_ВОДКА · May 2016

please message me some videos with this exploters! i need it for the news on my gaming site

cpuScientist · May 2016

With the system ZOS has in place this game is doomed. This is a knockout punch. U less they are willing to do a big and costly change, this game can no longer contonue. ZOS you will in the coming months begin to lose alot of players a flood of players will leave this game.

Your dev team is inept, and for modern game to operate like this with its server-client relationship just proves it.

Leaderboards will no longer be trusted and any high score will be seen as false, every player will second guess one another. This will fester and kill the game.

SolarCat02 · May 2016

I am glad something is being done. I am curious to see just how much will be done.

And part of me would really like to see a chart showing a breakdown of permabans, then temporary bans, over the life of the game. If this was something regularly published (and assuming ZOS has been banning on a regular basis as their code caught cheaters), I think it would go a long way towards preventing cheating.

Clear punishment, and proof of that punishment being enforced, is a really strong deterrent.

Clerics1985 · May 2016

D2jsp Rip

Reevster · May 2016

I don't believe anyone anymore, ban em all and let Zos sort it out through the appeal process/reviewing game logs etc... if your legit then welcome back, if not, good riddance.

Tavore1138 · May 2016

Reevster wrote: »

I don't believe anyone anymore, ban em all and let Zos sort it out through the appeal process/reviewing game logs etc... if your legit then welcome back, if not, good riddance.

Bah just what someone would say to make themselves look innocent!

ZoM_Head · May 2016

There are a ton of players that were abusing the 2H battle axe bleed bug, nothing happened to them.

A lot of players were being invisible, reported and nothing happened.

Some players were at 0% health, executing and being bombarded by zergs and not going down.

All of these exploits are on youtube, and they are still online unbanned/punshed.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · May 2016

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Just a quick update for everyone regarding the recent influx of those using third party tools to cheat in ESO. We've adjusted our automatic anti-cheat systems to focus specifically on the cheats we've seen in the last few days, in addition to launching investigations on specific players. We've permanently banned 43 players in the last 24 hours who were found to be cheating. We don't take cheating lightly, and will continue to ban those who are found to be cheating. We'll be going back through game logs to identify players who were violating our anti-cheating policies in the hours before we performed the automatic cheat detection adjustment.

In addition, we're working on a number of fixes and improvements to prevent this kind of behavior from happening in ESO in the future. We'll provide more specific details about this tomorrow.

We want to thank everyone who has helped us identify those who would ruin your game experience by cheating, and the means by which they were doing so.

So? @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Dubhliam · May 2016

arena25 wrote: »

Hello all, Lord Arena25 here.

Every game has that exploit that a lot of players use and it made a mess of PR in their respective games. For World of Warcraft it was the Saronite Bomb Platform Rebuild. For RIFT it was a dummy boss mechanic. And now ESO has to deal with this mess.

While unfortunate, ESO isn't the first game to have this kind of a PR issue right before a major content update, and I doubt ESO will be the last game to have this kind of a PR issue right before a major content update.

I'll be back later when I can be bothered.

Signed,
Lord Arena25

Yes, it is quite unfortunate.

ZOS will assume that DB sells poorly because people protest to the hacking.

Totally rule out the possibility that the DLC itself is a failure(which it is).

ИВАН_ВОДКА · May 2016

@ZoM_Head hey please link the videos

cpuScientist · May 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

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arena25 wrote: »

Hello all, Lord Arena25 here.

Every game has that exploit that a lot of players use and it made a mess of PR in their respective games. For World of Warcraft it was the Saronite Bomb Platform Rebuild. For RIFT it was a dummy boss mechanic. And now ESO has to deal with this mess.

While unfortunate, ESO isn't the first game to have this kind of a PR issue right before a major content update, and I doubt ESO will be the last game to have this kind of a PR issue right before a major content update.

I'll be back later when I can be bothered.

Signed,
Lord Arena25

Yes, it is quite unfortunate.

ZOS will assume that DB sells poorly because people protest to the hacking.

Totally rule out the possibility that the DLC itself is a failure(which it is).

Those were exploits. These are hacks. HUGE DIFFERENCE. LOL

ZoM_Head · May 2016

ИВАН_ВОДКА wrote: »

@ZoM_Head hey please link the videos

Just youtube ESO pvp invisibility exploit, or pvp invincbility etc

The names of the players are clear, so it violets Zenimax's code of conduct really.

cpuScientist · May 2016

ZoM_Head wrote: »

There are a ton of players that were abusing the 2H battle axe bleed bug, nothing happened to them.

A lot of players were being invisible, reported and nothing happened.

Some players were at 0% health, executing and being bombarded by zergs and not going down.

All of these exploits are on youtube, and they are still online unbanned/punshed.

Those are bugs and in game issues. Problems that ZOS put in game and were ironed out.

This is hacking, HUGE DIFFERENCE. Bugs are one thing and using them to your advantage is sneaky, but HACKING the game and using third party software to change the way the game plays, and to mess with the server. THATS A HUGE OFFENCE.

THEY NEED TO BE BANNED PERMANENTLY

Letho2469 · May 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

show previous quotes

arena25 wrote: »

Hello all, Lord Arena25 here.

Every game has that exploit that a lot of players use and it made a mess of PR in their respective games. For World of Warcraft it was the Saronite Bomb Platform Rebuild. For RIFT it was a dummy boss mechanic. And now ESO has to deal with this mess.

While unfortunate, ESO isn't the first game to have this kind of a PR issue right before a major content update, and I doubt ESO will be the last game to have this kind of a PR issue right before a major content update.

I'll be back later when I can be bothered.

Signed,
Lord Arena25

Yes, it is quite unfortunate.

ZOS will assume that DB sells poorly because people protest to the hacking.

Totally rule out the possibility that the DLC itself is a failure(which it is).

Exploiting in one particular pve encounter is a totally different thing than hacking entire game mechanics!
This is not about ppl exploiting or hacking, it's about having made questionable decisions and having chosen an implementation of netcode that even 2-people-garage-companies know better! Such netcode implementations are a desaster, a total failure, like opera singers drinking lemon juice 2mins before their performance!
Zenimax rather didn't know how online games are netcoded or they knew very well and yet didn't care to save money and create a "sell and forget" game.
The PR desaster is much higher, because this sort of problem won't be easy to fix, IF it can be fixed at all!

The only chance I see for this game is following a strict and rigorous baning policy towards boters and hackers and regaining the community's confidence by publishing charts of banned players for deterrence is the best prevention in such cases. Due to the sneakyness of those hacks (spaming meteors every GCD can easily be detected by players - adding 100 reg to your ressources, cannot) we additionally need a tool that checks EVERY log for suspicous numbers - that would probably inflict a VERY high amount of ressources. Another option would be relying on player reports. That can only be done by providing information on a target's ressources and ressource regeneration values. As everybody can imagine the latter option would be far less reliable.

Makkir · May 2016

I haven't ever used so much as the double mundus stone exploit. I love this game and the escape it provides me. I am terribly disappointed to see some players who I once considered "role models" to have been perma banned for exploiting. It's sickening. At some point, we all need to exercise some moral responsibility instead of blaming ZOS for not taking action. If the police are away attending to an accident, does that mean it's okay for you to rob the store across the street?

In EverQuest, my server Lanys had a sh*tlist to publicly shame cheaters. In Star Wars Galaxies, I was the top armorsmith on Valcyn and we crafters banned cheaters from our stores, shutting down access to the best armor and weapons for them. If I was a trade store GM in Elder Scrolls Online, I would be kicking these players from my guilds blocking access to good locations to sell their wares. I would stop running trials/vets with them, and I would stop grouping with them in Cyrodiil.

I am not 100% kosher with the "fix this or I will quit" responses that I read here, because I don't want to see this game die. Instead, i will suck it up and deal with the cheats because I love this game THAT much. I will continue to record 1vX on Haderus/TrueFlame despite the cheaters. I just won't participate in the cheating.

Makkir · May 2016

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Just a quick update for everyone regarding the recent influx of those using third party tools to cheat in ESO. We've adjusted our automatic anti-cheat systems to focus specifically on the cheats we've seen in the last few days, in addition to launching investigations on specific players. We've permanently banned 43 players in the last 24 hours who were found to be cheating. We don't take cheating lightly, and will continue to ban those who are found to be cheating. We'll be going back through game logs to identify players who were violating our anti-cheating policies in the hours before we performed the automatic cheat detection adjustment.

In addition, we're working on a number of fixes and improvements to prevent this kind of behavior from happening in ESO in the future. We'll provide more specific details about this tomorrow.

We want to thank everyone who has helped us identify those who would ruin your game experience by cheating, and the means by which they were doing so.

My wife and I are sending you all cookies