Dark Brotherhood Sorcerer Q&A

Dyride

@Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

Why is there a self root at the end of Streak? This is a huge problem.

Why can't Stam Sorcs use both of our defensive skills (Defensive Rune and Hurricane) at same time without giving free CC immunity?

Why is Daedric Curse no longer going to be scaling as a DoT with CP when it has always been included in that category?

Why don't pets benefit from CP?

Why don't Pets scale with maximum resource?

Why do Pets still need to be on both bars and also still have a cast time when you have to use another globabl cooldown to get their special ability?

Fasoo

Hey Eric! This is Faso! I play a magicka sorc and have for almost 2 years. I was wondering if you have looked at the ball of lightning ability and buffing it or changing its functionality? It is
Currently a non existent skill within pvp and even PVE content ( VMA, etc) and was wondering with the recent nerfs to sorc as a whole if you have considered re structuring the ability.

Also in reference to the hardened Ward talk, I believe 10 seconds would be a good ball park number to give sorcs their exclusive shield and satisfy sorcs and non sorcs alike, but I do understand why the shield in general was nerfed as 20 seconds was making it passive instead of active play. Thanks for taking the time to explain your reasoning.

SorataArisugawa

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but... what's wrong with "having to" use weapon skill lines?

Every stamina build does that too in PvE in form of Rapid Strikes, but when Sorcerers "have to" use Destruction Staff it's the end of the world.

Or they use uppercut, or bow... what a counterproductive statement...

No, they use Rapid Strikes if they want to deal good DPS. You do not use 2H in PvE.

The off bar is where you keep bow with Arrow Barrage & Poison Injection.


But I don't see how that is being counterproductive - if anything it further reinforces the point that you don't need to get everything from your class skill line.

Stamina DKs don't have a spammable class DPS skill, yet they're head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to DPS.

Yeah because they are a DOTing class... of curse they make the most of their DMG with their CLASS DOTs... what do we have? liquide lightning and a procc (frags)... nice one... what a fun gameplay...

Yep, that's how magicka sorc plays - instead of spamming Funnel or Sweeps, you spam Force Pulse - what's the difference?

You get to proc frags & deal sporadic bursts of damage where other classes are more about setting up DoTs. Isn't it good that classes play differently?

On my stamina nightblade, I get to spam Rapid Strikes & keep up Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Rearming Trap and Arrow Barrage (notice how many class skills?) until execute phase, when you finally get to use one class skill (Killer's Blade).

If its fine to you, play like this. You are free to complain if not. I (and many others) don't like the dependence at a weaponskill which everybody could use easiely, but no other class does, because they dealing more DMG with ther class skills...

DDuke

CP5 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but... what's wrong with "having to" use weapon skill lines?

Every stamina build does that too in PvE in form of Rapid Strikes, but when Sorcerers "have to" use Destruction Staff it's the end of the world.

If the class offers little for what i'm trying to do, why bother playing that class when I could run another whose passives and actives (the actives being far more engaging and definitive of the classes potential) support what i'm trying to do better?

Sorcs are the class capable of achieving the highest spell damage in the entire game with their passives, I really don't know what you're talking about when bringing them up.

Stam sorc vs Stam dk, dk's have multiple active skills they can directly call upon to deal damage and passives that support not only those skills but weapon skills. They also have group utility, and don't even need to try for some of that utility (aoe armor debuff, snares). Stam sorcs? They give some spell crit, and hurricane, the passives make physical damage better for them but does that come anywhere near what a dk does?

And about spell damage, is it all about stacking into one stat? Their sustain comes from liquid lighting but they still lack group utility for those pve encounters. Oh, they have that burst that people in pvp love to bring up, but now their in class methods of surviving are a short duration shield, a hot, and a suicidal pet. In solo pvp sure there are options, but as someone mentioned Negate will likely be the sorcerer pvp calling card, the other classes, while not being able to 'stack the highest spell damage' provide things that provide more value than one raw stat. Is it that hard to see what i'm trying to explain?

I dont think anyone is trying to argue that stam sorcs are stronger than stam DKs.

And it sounds like what you're trying to explain is that other classes have more active (as opposite to passive, e.g. Bound Aegis) skills than sorcerers. Am I getting close?

If so, I don't necessarily disagree - but that's more of a problem with sorcerers being the only class left with toggles on their bar (and thus by default less active skills).

I'd like to see the toggles changed similar to Magelight/Expert Hunter, so they actually do something more than activate/deactivate when you click the button.

But that doesn't mean that Sorcerers should just get some instant cast class skill with which they replace Force Pulse (so no one in the game uses it anymore).

DDuke

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but... what's wrong with "having to" use weapon skill lines?

Every stamina build does that too in PvE in form of Rapid Strikes, but when Sorcerers "have to" use Destruction Staff it's the end of the world.

Or they use uppercut, or bow... what a counterproductive statement...

No, they use Rapid Strikes if they want to deal good DPS. You do not use 2H in PvE.

The off bar is where you keep bow with Arrow Barrage & Poison Injection.


But I don't see how that is being counterproductive - if anything it further reinforces the point that you don't need to get everything from your class skill line.

Stamina DKs don't have a spammable class DPS skill, yet they're head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to DPS.

Yeah because they are a DOTing class... of curse they make the most of their DMG with their CLASS DOTs... what do we have? liquide lightning and a procc (frags)... nice one... what a fun gameplay...

Yep, that's how magicka sorc plays - instead of spamming Funnel or Sweeps, you spam Force Pulse - what's the difference?

You get to proc frags & deal sporadic bursts of damage where other classes are more about setting up DoTs. Isn't it good that classes play differently?

On my stamina nightblade, I get to spam Rapid Strikes & keep up Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Rearming Trap and Arrow Barrage (notice how many class skills?) until execute phase, when you finally get to use one class skill (Killer's Blade).

If its fine to you, play like this. You are free to complain if not. I (and many others) don't like the dependence at a weaponskill which everybody could use easiely, but no other class does, because they dealing more DMG with ther class skills...

See, atleast some people (Sorcerers & my ranged Magicka DK ) still use this skill.

A lot of effort is spent on trying to make the game balanced, make all skills see use in some build or another - what you're arguing for goes against that philosophy.

Instead of asking for a skill to replace Force Pulse with, you should be asking for buffs to Force Pulse if you feel it's too weak (I don't think it is tbh).

And the thing with Force Pulse is, as Sorcerer you can deal more damage with it than any other class (thanks to passives).

iam117

@Wrobel and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom thanks for getting this together and taking the time to answer those questions, I look forward to hearing some more answered, although some of the answers were not ones I was looking for they were still explained, and reasoning was given, thanks a ton!

CP5

DDuke wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but... what's wrong with "having to" use weapon skill lines?

Every stamina build does that too in PvE in form of Rapid Strikes, but when Sorcerers "have to" use Destruction Staff it's the end of the world.

If the class offers little for what i'm trying to do, why bother playing that class when I could run another whose passives and actives (the actives being far more engaging and definitive of the classes potential) support what i'm trying to do better?

Sorcs are the class capable of achieving the highest spell damage in the entire game with their passives, I really don't know what you're talking about when bringing them up.

Stam sorc vs Stam dk, dk's have multiple active skills they can directly call upon to deal damage and passives that support not only those skills but weapon skills. They also have group utility, and don't even need to try for some of that utility (aoe armor debuff, snares). Stam sorcs? They give some spell crit, and hurricane, the passives make physical damage better for them but does that come anywhere near what a dk does?

And about spell damage, is it all about stacking into one stat? Their sustain comes from liquid lighting but they still lack group utility for those pve encounters. Oh, they have that burst that people in pvp love to bring up, but now their in class methods of surviving are a short duration shield, a hot, and a suicidal pet. In solo pvp sure there are options, but as someone mentioned Negate will likely be the sorcerer pvp calling card, the other classes, while not being able to 'stack the highest spell damage' provide things that provide more value than one raw stat. Is it that hard to see what i'm trying to explain?

I dont think anyone is trying to argue that stam sorcs are stronger than stam DKs.

And it sounds like what you're trying to explain is that other classes have more active (as opposite to passive, e.g. Bound Aegis) skills than sorcerers. Am I getting close?

If so, I don't necessarily disagree - but that's more of a problem with sorcerers being the only class left with toggles on their bar (and thus by default less active skills).

I'd like to see the toggles changed similar to Magelight/Expert Hunter, so they actually do something more than activate/deactivate when you click the button.

But that doesn't mean that Sorcerers should just get some instant cast class skill with which they replace Force Pulse (so no one in the game uses it anymore).

That's the general idea. Other classes have more applicable passives, more group utility, more interesting buffs, and more engagement with active skills. This makes me question how much I value having my character be a sorcerer when other classes are not just better suited for many situations, but in some areas sorcerer's are more of a liability. If this is what we should expect than those won't change, the class will remain 'as is', and that is not a place we want to see it.

Natas013

On shields, I still don't understand the logic behind nerf to duration over strength. You say to take in to all play styles, yet you admit this change is solely based on vMA numbers. In dungeons and PvP going unshielded is death for sorcs. This is due to our lack of reliable sustain and other forms of mitigation. To prove this point to myself I took my V2 magblade and my V16 magsorc to a V6 delve. I ran no shields on either, and found my magblade struggled less. Granted I might have faired better on my sorc if I ran pets, but I refuse to run a DoT I have zero control over on console. It doesn't matter if pets become incredibly OP and the cornerstone of all sorc builds. They'll still be aimless DoTs for console players.

I digress, nerfing shield duration hurts all other areas of the game for sorcs more than it does for vMA. Soft capping shield strength relative to max health would be less detrimental to all other areas of the game, and still gain the desired effect in vMA. To clarify again, HW would receive diminished returns on the player, not pets, one it equals max health, including buffs from food where applicable. Any additional shield applied beyond this point would be effected by the soft cap.

In closing I'd like to say one other thing, crit tank… really? Revert surge to live version and cap the heal relative to max achievable by frags. Allow curse to proc it since thurmatage doesn't effect curse any more. Make dark exchange instant heal and flat increase to regen over one to three ticks for mag/stam. Now everybody has a burst heal regardless of build type. If our class doesn't offer good sustained DPS, what good is an iffy sustained HoT skill?

XaXa

Didnt bother to read it figured i would just gauge if it was worth my time by checking the comments. Glad i saved 30 seconds of my life. Back to grinding my alt.

Joy_Division

While I do not agree with some of the changes that have been implemented, I am appreciative of the time and explanations given for them. This is something many of us asked for a long time ago.

Reading this makes me think ZoS wants to see how these changes work out. Fair enough. If people still aren't satisfied, please open a "sorcerer issues" thread before the next PTS update please.

dpencil

@Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
There are my responses to Wrobel's answers:

1. [Re: Class spamable] The fact that all three Destro Staff types share the same abilities means that they cannot meaningfully be considered different choices in terms of their basic function. True, there are some minor differences to heavy attacks, Destructive Touch, and Wall of Elements, but the main spamable attack, Force Shock, is identical with all three weapon choices. You seem to recognize that the fact every mag sorc must use this ability and therefore be tied to Destro staff is a problem, but then say you don't have any immediate plans to change this. I don't understand why you wouldn't at least say this is something you will be trying to fix in the future. For myself, I would be fine if there just wasn't a spell damage increase from using dual wield. That's the only reason a mag sorc doesn't run destro anyway (that, and maybe the extra set bonus). Why not give us an additional aspect of the final destro passive that increases spell damage by the same amount we'd get from slotting dual wield swords with the "blade and blunt" passive? As far as I'm concerned, that would fix the problem.

2. [Re: Ward change] I would be all for the idea of PvE / PVP dual-spec. This could also help people who are not full of skill points to diversify between the two modes of play more easily.

In terms of the Ward nerf itself, I am mainly concerned about vMA. Unlike some sorcs who can blow through with 500k+ scores, I can barely complete in 2 hours and I die a lot. I am very afraid that this change is going to lead to making vMA much harder for me. I will definitely be taking Empowered Ward, but since I'm already struggling to stay alive and keep my mana pool from being empty, needing to cast it 3x more without a significant cost reduction (no, I don't think the current cost reduction is significant enough), combined with losing 30% of its strength makes me very nervous. Please keep an eye on how non-elite players handle these changes and make adjustments accordingly.

3. [Re: Survivability] If further changes to Surge and Dark Exchange buff these significantly to make them more attractive this issue may be addressed to some degree. It seems like you intend mag sorcs to use shields more reactively or in anticipation of an immediate attack instead of having 100% uptime, that we should burst heal via pets or Dark Exchange and use Surge for sustained heals (assuming we dont use a Resto staff). Is this a correct assesment?

4. [Re: Surge change] Happy to hear you will buff the heals to Surge more significantly, hopefully it will be enough. My main concern is that with shields more widely available, surge will be pitiful in PvP. Battle Spirit will half it's potency, many more enemies will be running shields which will not register crits, and with Impen and CP reducing crit damage the meta is to spec away from crit and toward raw damage. The other class's skills you are balancing this against do not suffer from these issues, again making this pitiful by comparison. Do you disagree? If so, please explain. If not, is there anything you can do to help Surge overcome these obsticles?

5. [Re: Dark exchange] I would happily take a lower heal on Dark Exchange if it were instant cast. If you already were thinking of boosting the resource return even more, just leave it alone and give us instant cast time instead. None of the other skills a mag sorc uses have cast times (assuming only proc crystal frags). It's just not a normal part of our playstyle. And at the time we'd need to cast it ("oh crap, my shields are down and I'm getting pummeled") is exactly the worst time to try to pull off a spell with a cast time. One second can very easily mean the difference between life and death in a situation like that, especially in vMA or the current PvP burst meta. Also, choosing between getting health/mag for stamina or health/stam for magicka is already a unique feature of the skill. It doesn't also need a cast time to be unique, and given what I've already said, there's no benefit in being unique if that uniqueness is a serious handicap.

6. [Re: Sorc shield benefits] Good answer.

7. [Re: One stam skill] I think the issue is not one of having all the same skills, but general comparison between the classes. It's obvious that nightblades have way more skills and passives that benefit stamina play, so again our "uniqueness" feels more like a handicap. Shouldn't class balance mean that each class is equally potent? Sure they can do their jobs in different ways, but the dps, heals, or tankiness of each class should be on par with each other. If one outstrips the others, that is the definition of imbalance. The fear is that even with the passive changes and Hurricane, it will not be enough to make stam sorc a worthwhile choice comparatively.

8. [Re: Pets] Glad to hear pets will get an incoming damage cap, but there are still several things that should be in place for them to be worth slotting: Pet health bars in the UI, scaling based on CP, and ideally no more double barring required (like Inner light).

9. [Re: Poisons] I think a better proc chance with weaker effects would have been better. As it stands, it puts a lot more randomness into fights, as opposed to skill. I do like the enchant buffs and it is at least nice to have a choice between something that has 100% uptime vs. a chance to proc.

10. [Re: Skill cost increase] Good answer. We'll see how those other methods of resource return shake out to balance out the extra cost.

11. [Re: Skill loss from stam switch] Personally, I think this change made sense, given the intent to make Mages and Fighter's guild abilities more uniform in terms of the resource they use. The real issue should be reviewing the Mage guild skills other than Magelight and Entropy, because they are currently quite underwhelming.

12. [Re: Stam pet] Good answer.

Thanks for taking the time to cover these questions. Hopefully this is a sign of better things to come as the community really does get to feel more involved in the decision making process. We want to make this game as great as it can be too!

Natas013

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but... what's wrong with "having to" use weapon skill lines?

Every stamina build does that too in PvE in form of Rapid Strikes, but when Sorcerers "have to" use Destruction Staff it's the end of the world.

Or they use uppercut, or bow... what a counterproductive statement...

No, they use Rapid Strikes if they want to deal good DPS. You do not use 2H in PvE.

The off bar is where you keep bow with Arrow Barrage & Poison Injection.


But I don't see how that is being counterproductive - if anything it further reinforces the point that you don't need to get everything from your class skill line.

Stamina DKs don't have a spammable class DPS skill, yet they're head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to DPS.

Yeah because they are a DOTing class... of curse they make the most of their DMG with their CLASS DOTs... what do we have? liquide lightning and a procc (frags)... nice one... what a fun gameplay...

Yep, that's how magicka sorc plays - instead of spamming Funnel or Sweeps, you spam Force Pulse - what's the difference?

You get to proc frags & deal sporadic bursts of damage where other classes are more about setting up DoTs. Isn't it good that classes play differently?

On my stamina nightblade, I get to spam Rapid Strikes & keep up Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Rearming Trap and Arrow Barrage (notice how many class skills?) until execute phase, when you finally get to use one class skill (Killer's Blade).

But you have the option of spamming SA, what's our option… spam our execute? Which has an abysmal execute range btw.

Tyrion87

So what is the purpose of the playerbase's feedback if you know everything the best Wrobel?

DDuke

Natas013 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but... what's wrong with "having to" use weapon skill lines?

Every stamina build does that too in PvE in form of Rapid Strikes, but when Sorcerers "have to" use Destruction Staff it's the end of the world.

Or they use uppercut, or bow... what a counterproductive statement...

No, they use Rapid Strikes if they want to deal good DPS. You do not use 2H in PvE.

The off bar is where you keep bow with Arrow Barrage & Poison Injection.


But I don't see how that is being counterproductive - if anything it further reinforces the point that you don't need to get everything from your class skill line.

Stamina DKs don't have a spammable class DPS skill, yet they're head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to DPS.

Yeah because they are a DOTing class... of curse they make the most of their DMG with their CLASS DOTs... what do we have? liquide lightning and a procc (frags)... nice one... what a fun gameplay...

Yep, that's how magicka sorc plays - instead of spamming Funnel or Sweeps, you spam Force Pulse - what's the difference?

You get to proc frags & deal sporadic bursts of damage where other classes are more about setting up DoTs. Isn't it good that classes play differently?

On my stamina nightblade, I get to spam Rapid Strikes & keep up Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Rearming Trap and Arrow Barrage (notice how many class skills?) until execute phase, when you finally get to use one class skill (Killer's Blade).

But you have the option of spamming SA, what's our option… spam our execute? Which has an abysmal execute range btw.

I can spam SA & deal almost 50% less DPS than I would with Rapid Strikes, just like you can hardcast frags & deal x% less DPS than you would with Force Pulse.

*shrug*

Atleast you get to use those frag procs, since they're a DPS increase when added to rotation.

code65536

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but... what's wrong with "having to" use weapon skill lines?

Every stamina build does that too in PvE in form of Rapid Strikes, but when Sorcerers "have to" use Destruction Staff it's the end of the world.

Or they use uppercut, or bow... what a counterproductive statement...

No, they use Rapid Strikes if they want to deal good DPS. You do not use 2H in PvE.

The off bar is where you keep bow with Arrow Barrage & Poison Injection.


But I don't see how that is being counterproductive - if anything it further reinforces the point that you don't need to get everything from your class skill line.

Stamina DKs don't have a spammable class DPS skill, yet they're head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to DPS.

Yeah because they are a DOTing class... of curse they make the most of their DMG with their CLASS DOTs... what do we have? liquide lightning and a procc (frags)... nice one... what a fun gameplay...

So... why the hell do sorcs keep pushing for a spammable when they should be pushing for a better DoT toolkit?

I've gone over this in the other sorc threads--people who think that a sorc spammable will somehow close the PvE DPS gap basically have no clue how top PvE DPS is even achieved.

Smolt

Well I suppose my sorc will still be viable in ERP...

bloodenragedb14_ESO

code65536 wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but... what's wrong with "having to" use weapon skill lines?

Every stamina build does that too in PvE in form of Rapid Strikes, but when Sorcerers "have to" use Destruction Staff it's the end of the world.

Or they use uppercut, or bow... what a counterproductive statement...

No, they use Rapid Strikes if they want to deal good DPS. You do not use 2H in PvE.

The off bar is where you keep bow with Arrow Barrage & Poison Injection.


But I don't see how that is being counterproductive - if anything it further reinforces the point that you don't need to get everything from your class skill line.

Stamina DKs don't have a spammable class DPS skill, yet they're head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to DPS.

Yeah because they are a DOTing class... of curse they make the most of their DMG with their CLASS DOTs... what do we have? liquide lightning and a procc (frags)... nice one... what a fun gameplay...

So... why the hell do sorcs keep pushing for a spammable when they should be pushing for a better DoT toolkit?

I've gone over this in the other sorc threads--people who think that a sorc spammable will somehow close the PvE DPS gap basically have no clue how top PvE DPS is even achieved.

Its more about build diversity, being chained to a destruction staff for most magicka builds just to have a spammable devalues the validity of the build.

Now if they would just re-implement soft caps, build diversity would be even greater.

Natas013

DDuke wrote: »

Natas013 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but... what's wrong with "having to" use weapon skill lines?

Every stamina build does that too in PvE in form of Rapid Strikes, but when Sorcerers "have to" use Destruction Staff it's the end of the world.

Or they use uppercut, or bow... what a counterproductive statement...

No, they use Rapid Strikes if they want to deal good DPS. You do not use 2H in PvE.

The off bar is where you keep bow with Arrow Barrage & Poison Injection.


But I don't see how that is being counterproductive - if anything it further reinforces the point that you don't need to get everything from your class skill line.

Stamina DKs don't have a spammable class DPS skill, yet they're head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to DPS.

Yeah because they are a DOTing class... of curse they make the most of their DMG with their CLASS DOTs... what do we have? liquide lightning and a procc (frags)... nice one... what a fun gameplay...

Yep, that's how magicka sorc plays - instead of spamming Funnel or Sweeps, you spam Force Pulse - what's the difference?

You get to proc frags & deal sporadic bursts of damage where other classes are more about setting up DoTs. Isn't it good that classes play differently?

On my stamina nightblade, I get to spam Rapid Strikes & keep up Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Rearming Trap and Arrow Barrage (notice how many class skills?) until execute phase, when you finally get to use one class skill (Killer's Blade).

But you have the option of spamming SA, what's our option… spam our execute? Which has an abysmal execute range btw.

I can spam SA & deal almost 50% less DPS than I would with Rapid Strikes, just like you can hardcast frags & deal x% less DPS than you would with Force Pulse.

*shrug*

Atleast you get to use those frag procs, since they're a DPS increase when added to rotation.

Spamming an interruptible over an instant cast doesn't even seem a fair comparison. Idk if your speaking to live flurry or pts, and I don't have any knowledge of the pts version. All I can speak to is on live, and I've found on live WB melts mobs faster than flurry, and SA faster than WB. On longer fights I could see your point, as flurry spam is more sustainable than the other two. That being said, you and all other classes (except stamDK and I'm not touching that except to say I agree with the DoT purge explosion idea tossed around there) have options that don't reduce the damage output of all your skills. You slot DW, why? Highest sustained damage output. Our sustained DPS is laughable with destro compared to other mag builds. I'm sorry you want to compare apples to oranges, but the fact is you should be comparing your stamNB to stam sorc. See how far that gets ya. Be sure to include all the benefits from passives as well, or lack there of.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

iam117

Natas013 wrote: »

Spamming an interruptible over an instant cast doesn't even seem a fair comparison. Idk if your speaking to live flurry or pts, and I don't have any knowledge of the pts version. All I can speak to is on live, and I've found on live WB melts mobs faster than flurry, and SA faster than WB. On longer fights I could see your point, as flurry spam is more sustainable than the other two. That being said, you and all other classes (except stamDK and I'm not touching that except to say I agree with the DoT purge explosion idea tossed around there) have options that don't reduce the damage output of all your skills. You slot DW, why? Highest sustained damage output. Our sustained DPS is laughable with destro compared to other mag builds. I'm sorry you want to compare apples to oranges, but the fact is you should be comparing your stamNB to stam sorc. See how far that gets ya. Be sure to include all the benefits from passives as well, or lack there of.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

actually if your talking about skills that do the highest dps per class as a spammable in pve group play:

mag sorc: forcepulse
stam sorc: rapid strikes
Mag nightblade: forcepulse
stam nightblade: rapid strikes
mag dk: whip (forcepulse range)
stam dk: rapid strikes
mag templar: jabby
stam templar: jabby (probably rapid strikes though, definately for next patch)

if you want a sizable dps loss you can run something else, but every magicka class is tied to destro because of weaving and wall of elements, 2 classes rely on it as a spammable now, basically all magicka classes are tied to dw at this point as well, and every stam class is tied to dw and bow. most sorcerer dps is laughable yes, but there are still more than a few that can get very competative dps sustained single target, no overload. i dont really have a problem with any of this, but i would like to see the ward durations bumped 2 seconds each, this would not dmg pve or pvp. it would also be nice to see another class dot, or a buff in the passives somewhere to eek a little more dps so there is a little more room for error, but magicka dk has no room for error either so its not unfair.

arkansas_ESO

Honestly, reading this post is -very- worrisome. If this is the type of logic behind the developers' decisions, then it's apparent they're not familiar with their own game.

*Warning: rambling ahead.*

"Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done. These changes make surge more desirable for a wider number of builds and reduced its power when combined with Overload."

• If you ask any of the guilds running end-game content at a competitive level, they'll tell you they don't run sorc tanks. It's just not a class designed for tanking, and changing Surge won't help them at all.
• These changes to Surge have made the skill less desirable to magicka sorcs (they'll just run Entropy instead) and stamina sorcs (they'll run Rally in it's place.) These changes seem to be done with the mindset of encouraging sorc tanks, but in the end all you've done is slightly nerf magicka sorc's self-heals, greatly nerf stam sorc's survivability (this was one of the few useful buffs they had), and still nobody will run sorc tanks.

"Surge now feels like a sustain ability instead of a spike heal ability. This design makes more sense for the ability because the procs are random."

You guys seem unaware that the main reason Surge was slotted in PVP (by stam sorcs, anyways) was because they could rely on Critical Rush, which is a guaranteed crit, to proc this ability and provide good healing. Again, it seems like ZOS doesn't play much of their own game.

"Conjured Ward gets maximum effectiveness with all armor types, Annulment morphs require light armor"

This is just simply wrong. Conjured Ward has always been best used by builds stacking max magicka (AKA light armor builds.) Seriously, @Wrobel, load up the PTS, and create two template sorcs, one in full light, and one in full heavy/medium, with attributes put into magicka/stamina respectively. Then cast Conjured Ward and notice the -huge- difference in size between the two. There's no point in using Conjured Ward unless you're stacking max magicka. It's been that way for over a year now, so why aren't you guys aware of it by now?

Finally, on stamina morphs for pets:

If you're deadset on making sorc tanks a thing, this might be the way to go. As it is, pets are completely irrelevant from a DPS perspective (even despite the buffs) and mostly irrelevant from a healer perspective (groups will take a dedicated Templar healer over a dedicated sorc healer any day.) Maybe you could redesign the Hunt Leader set and make it's 5pc bonus (return stamina and health when your pets attack an enemy you've also attacked) a new version of Daedric Prey instead of a DPS increase?

Taonnor

Wrobel wrote: »

There has been a large amount of feedback and questions from the Sorcerer section of the PTS forums. The answer to some of these questions affect all classes, so we're sharing them with everyone! We'd like to engage in this type of communication with all classes as time allows. When providing helpful feedback, taking the following guidelines into account:

• Include specific details about your issue or situation
• Consider all types of gameplay (pvp, pve, solo, group)
• Back up your ideas with math and logical arguments

And here are our first round of questions and answers. Thanks everyone!

Flaminir wrote: »

Sorcerers are the only class that doesn’t have a spammable class-based DPS skill. Why did you change Trapping Webs (the only spammable ability we had access to which isn't tied to a Destro Staff) to only Stamina, so we now have no choice but to run a Destro Staff in all aspects of the game? (This question is coming mainly from a PVP perspective as Trapping Webs was widely used in PVP with Dual Wield Magicka builds.)

Trapping Webs was never meant to be a spammable ability such as Lava Whip, Force Shock, Strife, etc. It costs more and is lower damage. The focus for Undaunted abilities is having powerful Synergies, so we redesigned it to feel less spammy. (Note that each Synergy has a 20-second cooldown before you can activate it again.)
We understand that Sorcerers would like more freedom with choosing what weapon to use. As a Stamina character, even without a class damaging ability, you have a diverse set of options between Bow, 1h Shield, 2h, and Dual Wield. Magicka technically has 4 options as well – Restoration Staff and 3 flavors of Destruction Staff. However Restoration staff doesn’t support offensive abilities and there is not enough diversity between the three types of Destruction Staff. We don’t have any immediate plans to change this, but we would like to give Sorcerers more compelling decisions when selecting a weapon.

Minalan wrote: »

Shields: They took it very hard in this patch, and nothing was given in return. You have a PVE and a PVP morph of the shield, which is untenable because we need to be able to freely switch between them. Empowered Ward is THAT bad for PVP at 6K-8K. Hardened Ward is THAT bad for PVE at 6 seconds. This is not workable. We have to respec morphs based on what content we want to do, which could be multiple times in a day. I already pay enough money to the Shrine of Stendarr. Instead why not fix the stacking problem, or make the shields critable and full-length again?

Offering players interesting choices is one of our design goals. People have different playstyles and some of them will choose to have more sustainabilityin PVP. Some people will prefer Hardened Ward, some will use Empowered Ward, and some will use Hardened Ward with Dampen Magic. None of these decisions are right or wrong or better. They each suit different playstyles and different people have fun in different ways.
As a hardcore gamer, it sounds like you want a duel spec system. This would allow you to quickly switch between 2 different playstyles. We don’t have immediate plans on adding this, but it is something we are interested in for the future.

Flaminir wrote: »

Why did we receive so many defensive nerfs without a single usable buff to our defense / sustainability? (Shields and Surge.)

We based this decision on extensive playtesting, player feedback, and data from the Maelstrom Arena leaderboards. It was our intent to make Sorcerers increase investment in maintaining their current levels of survivability. We specifically didn’t nerf the values on damage shields because we wanted to maintain their powerful feel – when the shields are up, enemies aren’t going to take you down.

Flaminir wrote: »

Surge nerf - all classes have skills which heal based on damage done. Why has ours been removed to give us a low flat value and all the other classes kept theirs? (If Overload was the reason as Wrobel mentioned on ESO live, then why not just cap the heal at say 6-8k to prevent the 20k Overload heals at its peak? There were no other issues with this skill to warrant such a nerf & goes against the stated policy of smaller tweaks rather than huge nerfs.)

We wanted to make the Surge ability a more universal tool in the Sorcerer kit. It wasn’t intended as a nerf, except in the case of Overload because we felt that Synergy was over-performing compared to others, such as Strife and Puncturing Strikes. We’re still working out the balance of the final numbers, so expect to see a sizable increase in Surge healing for Dark Brotherhood’s release.
It’s been a longstanding issue that Surge doesn’t play well with DoT builds, thus limiting the number of options for Sorcerers. Abilities such as Crushing Shock deal damage in 3 separate attacks and Flurry never procced the heal. Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done. These changes make surge more desirable for a wider number of builds and reduced its power when combined with Overload.

Minalan wrote: »

Surge: Please take a look at the design and functionality inside Cyrodiil. Players do not stand still inside of DOT AOE attacks like liquid lightning. A 900 heal is not helpful, even if it manages to crit. Under the old system, we could at least get a decent heal from a lucky crit if the opponent wasn't shielded.

Surge now feels like a sustain ability instead of a spike heal ability. This design makes more sense for the ability because the procs are random. Big burst heals are something you want to be able to use with reliability when you need them. Getting a big Surge heal when you are at full health and getting no heal when you are low on health can lead to frustrating situations.
Surge has a stronger synergy with damage shields now. The shields help stop big bursts of damage and Surge helps to top off your health bar and keep you sustained through long battles. The healing values on Surge will be balanced against other popular sustain abilities such as Strife and Puncturing Strikes.

Flaminir wrote: »

Why did you make the recent changes to Dark Exchange without actually making it usable due to its cast time? It already has an interesting & unique mechanic, and the user has to sacrifice resources to use it, so why add a double penalty with a cast time for such a small return?

Minalan wrote: »

Dark Deal: This morph should be an instant heal instead of a one-second cast. This would help decouple the class from the restoration staff. I know someone on your team will think it's too much. All I have to say is: Templar. Dark Deal isn't nearly as good as other class self-heals, if you will not improve shields for whatever reason, please consider this.

Cast time abilities add a risk/reward mechanic that makes combat more varied and interesting. They are harder to fire off, but the payoff should make the cast time worthwhile. Some examples of abilities we feel are worth the risk are Dark Flare and Radiant Destruction. These abilities have counter play, but feel extremely powerful when executed without interruption. Finding this balance point is challenging, but it’s something we’re pursuing in an effort to make the gameplay more varied and fun.
We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do. Our first cut at this was to double the healing it provided, a substantial improvement but not enough. For Dark Brotherhood launch we’re also significantly improving the number of resources returned. We aren’t 100% against making this ability instant cast, but we’d like to further investigate the cast time option first. We think different classes should have different mechanics for resource restoration.

Flaminir wrote: »

Why give a version of our signature defensive ability (Hardened Ward) to all classes but we get nothing in return from the other classes?

Minalan wrote: »

As a skill, the exclusive and class-defining ability Hardened Ward is not much better than Nullify Magicka. Please consider a longer duration, as 8-10 seconds wouldn't be out of line for Hardened Ward and 12 for Empowered.

There are multiple advantages of being a Sorcerer when looking at damage shield options.

• You can stack the Annulment shield with Conjured Ward
• Conjured Ward has more distinct morph choices (increased duration vs increased power)
• Conjured Ward is much cheaper than Annulment
• Conjured Ward gets maximum effectiveness with all armor types, Annulment morphs require light armor
• Expert Mage gives increased spell and weapon damage for slotting Conjured Ward

Flaminir wrote: »

Given this was supposed to be the major Stamina pass on all abilities, why are Sorcerers the only class without a Stamina-based DPS skill? (I would also ask the same question of Magicka Sorcs... but the patch was never advertised as a Magicka-based one.)

We want every class to feel different; they all have unique pros and cons. For example DKs also don’t have a spammable Stamina-based ability. They instead have damage-over-time Stamina abilities from Venomous Claw and Noxious Breath. Hurricane is the Sorcerer class’ Stamina-based damage ability. We made significant updates to this ability for Dark Brotherhood:

• Now deals physical damage so it scales with your physical damage stats
• Deals increasing damage-over-time
  • Damage per cast on this ability is now extremely high
• Increases in size over time
• Cool new FX!
• Now grants the Minor Expedition buff

cpuScientist wrote: »

How are pet Sorcerers supposed to defend our pets now that they simply cannot be shielded as often as before and will now just die in red? Or if we do choose to shield them our low DPS drops even lower. It's not like we are providing some major party boost by having them out.

We’re adding a damage limit to pets so they can’t be 1-shot. This should give you more time to shield them reactively instead of proactively. Also keep in mind that pets take less damage from AoE attacks to make up for the fact that they can’t intelligently move out of red telegraphs.

Minalan wrote: »

Poisons: These seem designed to affect Magicka users in an unbalanced way, when Stamina builds have already been made so much stronger already. Please look into balancing weapon enchants against this, or add a 'poison antidote' potion effect that grants a short time immunity to poisons. Please, we don't want to just get farmed all day, but that's almost inevitable in this patch.

Enchantments and poisons both proc in the same manner—they require weapon attacks. Enchantments proc at a 100% chance every 4 seconds, while poisons proc at a 20% chance every 10 seconds. The key balance distinction between enchantments and poisons is that you’re getting an instant effect from enchantments and an over-time one from poisons.
The total DPS increase from poisons or enchantments should be around 5%, so you aren’t going to get farmed if you don’t use poison. That said, we will certainly be monitoring feedback on poisons once Dark Brotherhood goes live and make balance adjustments or counters if they over perform.

Minalan wrote: »

Magicka Costs Increasing: Can you please look into this? I understand that this is happening to every class across the board, but with the costs of everything going up, this change is adding insult to injury. And there is already plenty of injury here, and that's being as polite about this patch as I am realistically able.

With the removal of Veteran Ranks we wanted ability costs to increase in a more reliable and understandable way. Veteran Ranks used a different calculation for ability cost increase from the level 1-50 experience. With this change, abilities now continue to increase their costs at the same linear pace. This also means cost reduction passives and gear should now return the values listed in the tooltips instead of using a more complex formula.
There are quite a few builds that generate a large number of resources and we expect some players will end up changing their current setup. While costs are higher, note that you can now get increased resource returns from heavy attacks that now scale their return as you gain Champion Points. Additionally, enchantments are now more powerful and restore more resources than they used to. There are also poisons which give you additional options for getting more resources.

Minalan wrote: »

Skill and DPS Loss: We've lost some of our best damage abilities that we used in the DB patch (Trapping Webs, Dawnbreaker of smiting, Fighter's guild passives for werewolves, undead, and daedra). We're okay with this, stamina needed it more than we did. But please figure this into damage and defense calculation changes that you're making.

It’s true that you’ll have lower ability damage when fighting enemies of the Fighters Guild, however we did increase the damage of enchantments and add the option for using poisons. Keep in mind we did not change the Banish the Wicked passive from Ffighters Guild, so you’ll still score 9 Ultimate for killing undead, Daedra, and werewolves. It was important to us that all players wanted to invest in the guild and be properly rewarded.

DDuke wrote: »

Can we get a Stamina morph for at least one of the pets? A Clannfear would be awesome. (Or scale to the highest resource?)

We think this is a fun idea. However, there is much deliberation when considering if an ability should be converted to Magicka or Stamina. The Clannfear’s heal currently scale off the player’s max Health, meaning this is an ideal ability for a tank. Tanks generally spend the majority of their Stamina blocking, and then use their Magicka for utility abilities and heals. This change would put a further tax on the tank’s Stamina resource which is at odds with the new change to constitution where tanks now get back more Magicka each time they are hit. On the whole, converting an ability is exciting because new builds are created, however it can be frustrating as old builds are destroyed.

In short there is nothing new for me. All this you already said in eso live or other threads. Or i can read your mind... For me the DB changes forced the sorc away from the classic roles like dd, healer or tank. Because:

1. PvP

As sorc in pvp, especially in groups with around 8-12 peoples, i am forced to fit a specific role to play effective. I see i MUST play as "Negate Sorc". The new negate is a gamechanger. My job is to set the negate in the right moment to win the fight. Between that the best case is to support my group with encase, blink, purge and so on, because i have no realy dmg or heal.

So the sorc is in my eyes more like an offensive group support. He cannot realy play effective other roles like dd or healer or tank. This is the unic way of sorc to play. You are an offensive support. With your negate you will be the gamechanger in pvp.

First this is a cool role, but i dont like that. My problem is i want to play as dd and for that i MUST play my magicka nightblade... He feels more like a real dd i want. In my eyes the sorcerer cannot reach the dmg from nb and i want the maximum.

But if the sorc have more offensive support skills, it could be funny to play too. I think on range aoe root or aoe disorient or group crit dmg buff and so on. But at the moment effectively there is only the negate.


2. PvE

I see no reason to play trials with my sorc. In trials you have 3 roles you need. Tank, healer, dd. All roles are filled by other classes. The sorc is no real dd and cannot reach the dmg potential of other classes. The sorc cannot fit the healer slot... And the tank slot... No, sry. So, i ask you. Which role should fit the sorcerer in pve?

As i said. At the moment i feels he is more like an offensive support. But in pve is no need for offensive supporters. I see 2 ways to change that.

- A: Create content that needs that new "role".
- B: Adjust the sorc dmg/heal/tankyness


3. Conclusion

Understand me not wrong. I like the idea of an offensive supporter. But then he needs more utility to debuff enemies, rupting them in their work and give the own group offensive buffs. There are already funny sets too outside like winterborn to create an offensive supporter. At the moment the sorc is more between the worlds. He is no realy a dd or a healer or a tank, but between that he shines as an "offensive support".

Minalan

Smolt wrote: »

Well I suppose my sorc will still be viable in ERP...

OMG hahahahaha!

code65536 wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but... what's wrong with "having to" use weapon skill lines?

Every stamina build does that too in PvE in form of Rapid Strikes, but when Sorcerers "have to" use Destruction Staff it's the end of the world.

Or they use uppercut, or bow... what a counterproductive statement...

No, they use Rapid Strikes if they want to deal good DPS. You do not use 2H in PvE.

The off bar is where you keep bow with Arrow Barrage & Poison Injection.


But I don't see how that is being counterproductive - if anything it further reinforces the point that you don't need to get everything from your class skill line.

Stamina DKs don't have a spammable class DPS skill, yet they're head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to DPS.

Yeah because they are a DOTing class... of curse they make the most of their DMG with their CLASS DOTs... what do we have? liquide lightning and a procc (frags)... nice one... what a fun gameplay...

So... why the hell do sorcs keep pushing for a spammable when they should be pushing for a better DoT toolkit?

I've gone over this in the other sorc threads--people who think that a sorc spammable will somehow close the PvE DPS gap basically have no clue how top PvE DPS is even achieved.

You have a point that cannot be ignored. itnwould have to be more than just buffing liquid lightning...

Faulgor

Wrobel wrote: »

We understand that Sorcerers would like more freedom with choosing what weapon to use. As a Stamina character, even without a class damaging ability, you have a diverse set of options between Bow, 1h Shield, 2h, and Dual Wield. Magicka technically has 4 options as well – Restoration Staff and 3 flavors of Destruction Staff. However Restoration staff doesn’t support offensive abilities and there is not enough diversity between the three types of Destruction Staff. We don’t have any immediate plans to change this, but we would like to give Sorcerers more compelling decisions when selecting a weapon.

Hey Eric! I don't really have a problem with having to rely on weapon skills a bit more than other classes with my sorcerer. But if this is by design, maybe we could add something that actively promotes this and makes sorcerers unique?

I think giving sorcerers a passive or active ability that improves their enchantments for a certain time could be really interesting. First, with the recent improvements to enchanting, this now becomes a viable option; Second, as enchantments only trigger from weapon attacks, this indirectly improves the sorcerer's weapon usage; And third, it perfectly fits the sorcerer's theme.

From the description of the class from previous Elder Scrolls games:

Though spellcasters by vocation, sorcerers rely most on summonings and enchantments. They are greedy for magic scrolls, rings, armor and weapons, and commanding undead and Daedric servants gratifies their egos.

Adjusting Bound Armor for this might be an interesting solution. When activated for a buff, one morph could improve armor and jewelry enchantments (Bound Aegis?), while the other boosts weapon enchantments (Bound Armaments?).

Prospering

"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome" - Wrobel 2016

BalticBlues

I invested months to bring up a Sorc after
ZOS made me hate my Templar with the last patches.

Now that ZOS also makes me hate my Sorc with this patch,
I think I am done with this game.

I feel betrayed - yet again. Because
- ZOS constantly changes core game mechanics
- ZOS constantly prevents feeling at home with a character
- ZOS constantly forces players into playing a way they dislike

Turelus

Thanks for the update Wrobel, glad to see more threads like this appearing on the forums.

ListerJMC

code65536 wrote: »

Why not give Surge two morphs that let us pick the behavior that we like (with something like a percentage-of-health cap for the old behavior for Overload), instead of forcing us into using this new style of Surge?.

^^^^^^ This!

I'm sure some people may find the crit heal annoying particularly if they're in a low-damage output role, but as a dps this change is horrible - I believe the crit heals that we have now are going to be far superior. I also think it's going to be very boring playing with it being a flat value I just can't express how much I hate this change, please give us a choice if you're really committed to considering and valuing all types of playstyles.

cpuScientist

Ahem, simply change the mahicka passive from Aegis with the health passive for pets. Especially if you are capping the damage they can take. Please do this and add diversity, easily.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Smolt wrote: »

Well I suppose my sorc will still be viable in ERP...

You should be quite shocking in those situations at least.

SorataArisugawa

code65536 wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but... what's wrong with "having to" use weapon skill lines?

Every stamina build does that too in PvE in form of Rapid Strikes, but when Sorcerers "have to" use Destruction Staff it's the end of the world.

Or they use uppercut, or bow... what a counterproductive statement...

No, they use Rapid Strikes if they want to deal good DPS. You do not use 2H in PvE.

The off bar is where you keep bow with Arrow Barrage & Poison Injection.


But I don't see how that is being counterproductive - if anything it further reinforces the point that you don't need to get everything from your class skill line.

Stamina DKs don't have a spammable class DPS skill, yet they're head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to DPS.

Yeah because they are a DOTing class... of curse they make the most of their DMG with their CLASS DOTs... what do we have? liquide lightning and a procc (frags)... nice one... what a fun gameplay...

So... why the hell do sorcs keep pushing for a spammable when they should be pushing for a better DoT toolkit?

I've gone over this in the other sorc threads--people who think that a sorc spammable will somehow close the PvE DPS gap basically have no clue how top PvE DPS is even achieved.

Because we know, that we can't ask for the same thing other classes already have in ways of DMG. DOTing is DK gameplay. We don't want something extraordinary. Just a way we could get to the "highest Spellpower ingame" [DDuke] (...) and do constant DMG.

We wouldn't have the problem, if DW but rather staffs would povide the most Spellpower (does anybody understand this? No? Me neigher, but it ist stated, that they won't change it...) ...

The sorc is as far from DOTs it gets in the game. Thats its style. I like it. But with the current statues, there is just to low DMG...