Dark Brotherhood Sorcerer Q&A

NativeJoe

Well... you can applaud him on one thing. The other classes feel equally strong vs sorcs lol.....

Feynn

ToRelax wrote: »

Feynn wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Flaminir wrote: »

Why did we receive so many defensive nerfs without a single usable buff to our defense / sustainability? (Shields and Surge.)

We based this decision on extensive playtesting, player feedback, and data from the Maelstrom Arena leaderboards. It was our intent to make Sorcerers increase investment in maintaining their current levels of survivability.

@Wrobel , I wonder what sort of player feedback you received. Right now the feeling among all the high-end PvE players I've spoken to is this: "I only use my Sorcerer as a Maestrom bot, because that's all he's good for. When I do any kind of group content I bring one of my other characters from other classes." Now that you are removing the things that made Sorcerer a good class for Maelstrom, you are basically removing the only thing Sorcerers were good for. You are simply telling us to stop playing Sorcerer, and if you are able to look at the data after the next patch goes live I am sure you will see that fewer and fewer people will be playing the class, especially as magicka sorcerers.

You are saying that your intent is to make Sorcerers increase investment in maintaining current levels of survivability. That means necessarily that Sorcerers will need to decrease their current investment in other things, like DPS. But Sorcerers already lag behind in sustained DPS compared to other classes, they are only good at short bursts of damage, purely thanks to Overload.

The classes are only "balanced" when, if you have to make a new character, you would feel that all classes are on the same level and it wouldn't really matter which class you picked. Nowadays, if you one of your friends were to start playing the game, would you ever recommend them to play a Sorcerer? Honestly, Wrobel, if you had to roll a new character today, would you roll a Sorc? I didn't think so.

I am not convinced that matters for his playstyle.

Probably not, if he only plays casually and doesn't have to worry about things like posting his DPS values to his guildmates during trials, or about the fact that the top players in his guild are running dungeons with four magicka nightblades to maximize damage and don't even really need to worry about bringing a healer and a tank along.

SorataArisugawa

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

[...]
and since you brought it up, one more:

• Sorcs should get access to a magicka melee (not ranged spammable, I still think there's a reason why destruction staff skill line exists) skill as well in order to increase build diversity.

See, I can be constructive. I just happen to disagree with one complaint people have and the general toxic attitude in this thread.

We could talk about it, if force pulse would use a special element with the same DMG as now. Further all 3 staffs have to be able to weave and should provide a similar amount of DMG at a single target over all.

Otherwise the sorc has to change. Even if you "think, that the destruction staff skill line for a reason" or not. Sorry to burst your bubble, but guys who play the sorc all the time and in comparison to other players with other classes aren't satisfied with a methaporical value of the existence of the destruction staff skill line...

I assume we're talking of PvE now.

What's wrong with Force Pulse dealing all 3 types of damage? it's a good thing, you get to proc more status effects.

Sure, i agree that frost/lightning staves should deal similar DPS to Fire - but that's not a Sorc issue, it's an universal one. Do you think the other classes aren't using inferno staff in PvE? Wall of Elements is a must use skill in PvE for all magicka builds aiming to do good DPS.
[...]

yeah, but it is all the same. We have just one skill even if you equip a other staff (which should change your playstyle acording to Mr. Wroble)

It is a sorc issue, because we are the only ones, which are tied to destruction staff... And wie are tied to the destruction stuff, we get no extra bonus of our passives for...

I am sorry, I don't want to be offensive, but I get the feeling, that the whole discussion went way over your head. Do you really not see the conections?
we are forced to use the staff like no other class (you find it good that way) but if we speak about the problems of the destruction staff you mention, thats a problem of all classes... that is nonsense dude...

DDuke wrote: »

[...]

And I have no idea what you mean by "metaphorical value of the existence of the destruction staff skill line" - that went way over my head, sorry.

[...]

Just it would be nice to have a destruction staff skill line it doesn't mean it has to be used if there is an destruction staff skill line even if it is useless...

Except you aren't the only class "tied" to destruction staves for the very same reasons destruction staff skill line isn't useless. You'd know this if you were familiar with high end PvE (where Wall of Elements is a must for every magicka build) & multiple PvP builds.

But they don't need them for the force puls as well. I didn't say that all skills of the destruction skill line are useless just the ones we have to spam. Didn't mention wall of elements anyway. But yeah you have understand the problem again...

Why are you here again? Just want to be sure, that sorcs problems are not addressed?

Just being here as a voice of reason and providing an ounce of common sense to this thread.

That went out of the window in the case of buffing suprise attack for nightblades?

I mean you literally asked for one of the best stamina attacks (admittedly due to passives also) to be buffed to not only offer a plenthora of debuffs, selfbuffs and the ability to play a weapon of choice with it. No you also wanted that move to offer competetive DPS to rapid strikes (because that was what made stamblade special).

I can´t be the only one seeing the irony in that (i do know the DPS of stamblade isn´t competetive - but you don´t fix that by buffing an anytimer).

Well, there are ways of buffing skills & their DPS without them affecting PvP too much, but it's good you brought up stamina nightblades. That is one community that is in much, much worse spot than magicka sorcerers when it comes to both PvP & PvE, yet we remain the capacity of calmly discussing our class & suggest improvements that are backed up by both math & logic.

---

To people saying magicka sorcs can't compete in PvE: there's videos of a sorc pulling 39k DPS at vMoL 2nd bosses - more than magicka NBs, slightly less than magplars
To people saying magicka sorcs suck in PvP (lol): look who won the last EU dueling tournament


Not saying there aren't issues with the sorc class, or that some improvements aren't needed but... some people just overdramatize the situation. There are classes & builds with twice the amount of issues, and they dont rage & complain half as much.

Not this again... poor poor nightblades. You just are so effective with you magica version, that you don't have to complain about your stam version. But the evil sorcs have no competetive version of there class at all...

The vid you refer is still useless because it doesn't show what the other raid members are achieving... but for your point it's valid of course...

Aliniel

NativeJoe wrote: »

Fecius wrote: »

andy.s wrote: »

Why can't we start with simple things? Remove sorc toggle abilities. Bound armor, clannfear, twilight... -3 slots on each bar. So how sorcs are supposed to use their class skills, when they also need at least 2 destro staff skills (force pulse and wall of elements)? Sorcs would use pets in pve if they wouldn't take 4 damn slots, and it's not a hard / game breaking change.

Here we have one more issure: pets have no scale with Campion Points.

If they make pets strong to match 501 CP, they will be OP for 0 CP.
If they make pets OK for 0 CP, they will not be valuable for 501 CP.

Speaking of pets... I was doing a max stat experiment here...

Look at the "pet damage" at 95k magicka.
1.6k regular, 2.4k crit

To make pets WORTH the slots they take up, we'd literally have to have around 300k magicka. That is how underpowered they are x.x

This is why I find Daedric Summoning a curse laid upon the Sorcerer out of pure hatred. Fix them, move them to some other skill line (i.e. World) or remove them entirely. These pets are the worst skill line in the entire game. People will keep complaining until they are made right. It's been 2 years. Patience has its limit.

Feynn

@Aliniel , some time ago after the introduction of the Justice system my clannfear got into a fight with a random town NPC. Guess who won...? Yeah, I had to summon the clannfear twice before he could finally manage to kill that NPC. Longest fight ever.

Natas013

Aliniel wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

Fecius wrote: »

andy.s wrote: »

Why can't we start with simple things? Remove sorc toggle abilities. Bound armor, clannfear, twilight... -3 slots on each bar. So how sorcs are supposed to use their class skills, when they also need at least 2 destro staff skills (force pulse and wall of elements)? Sorcs would use pets in pve if they wouldn't take 4 damn slots, and it's not a hard / game breaking change.

Here we have one more issure: pets have no scale with Campion Points.

If they make pets strong to match 501 CP, they will be OP for 0 CP.
If they make pets OK for 0 CP, they will not be valuable for 501 CP.

Speaking of pets... I was doing a max stat experiment here...

Look at the "pet damage" at 95k magicka.
1.6k regular, 2.4k crit

To make pets WORTH the slots they take up, we'd literally have to have around 300k magicka. That is how underpowered they are x.x

This is why I find Daedric Summoning a curse laid upon the Sorcerer out of pure hatred. Fix them, move them to some other skill line (i.e. World) or remove them entirely. These pets are the worst skill line in the entire game. People will keep complaining until they are made right. It's been 2 years. Patience has its limit.

If they made it a world skill line the only use it would see by most would be HW, VC, and PS passive. Heck even stam builds would level the line up high enough for the last one

Aliniel

Natas013 wrote: »

Aliniel wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

Fecius wrote: »

andy.s wrote: »

Why can't we start with simple things? Remove sorc toggle abilities. Bound armor, clannfear, twilight... -3 slots on each bar. So how sorcs are supposed to use their class skills, when they also need at least 2 destro staff skills (force pulse and wall of elements)? Sorcs would use pets in pve if they wouldn't take 4 damn slots, and it's not a hard / game breaking change.

Here we have one more issure: pets have no scale with Campion Points.

If they make pets strong to match 501 CP, they will be OP for 0 CP.
If they make pets OK for 0 CP, they will not be valuable for 501 CP.

Speaking of pets... I was doing a max stat experiment here...

Look at the "pet damage" at 95k magicka.
1.6k regular, 2.4k crit

To make pets WORTH the slots they take up, we'd literally have to have around 300k magicka. That is how underpowered they are x.x

This is why I find Daedric Summoning a curse laid upon the Sorcerer out of pure hatred. Fix them, move them to some other skill line (i.e. World) or remove them entirely. These pets are the worst skill line in the entire game. People will keep complaining until they are made right. It's been 2 years. Patience has its limit.

If they made it a world skill line the only use it would see by most would be HW, VC, and PS passive. Heck even stam builds would level the line up high enough for the last one

I like it how you totally ignored pets as a worthy skill It also makes me want to cry

Elderskrye

ginoboehm wrote: »

@wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom beside that hardened ward should last 10 secs and the other one 20 iam not even made about most changes. can you please give an statement about the current state of alpha strike capability ? it is major over performing and will make grieving gank builds a dominant sight. beside of that:why do you harm smaller groups with the current patch this much?

It is standard policy in US that work should be work; therefore a gamer working as a gamer should never game.
;-)

Elderskrye

Wrobel wrote: »

There has been a large amount of feedback and questions from the Sorcerer section of the PTS forums. [...]
We wanted to make the Surge ability a more universal tool in the Sorcerer kit. It wasn’t intended as a nerf, except in the case of Overload because we felt that Synergy was over-performing compared to others...

I'm hardly an expert, but I found overload unplayable. I assume that I will still find it unplayable, so I don't care that it's nerfed.

Oww, ugh, oof, dang dat hurt. Done?

I tried using Unstable Clanfear on a single DPS bar so it would explode and do damage when I switched bars, which I do often in combat. It was OK in solo and small group with conjured ward, but not as effective as other setups. I look forward to trying it with the changes.

Thanks for the details. I watched the show, but I learn better when I see what I heard. My thanks to the whole crew for this major effort. Please get some rest.

Derra

With 2.4 the class is perfectly playable but it´s not fun to play anymore for me.

I don´t find shields on mainbar fun but it´s the only logical choice now. Interest in the game vanished after 15 minutes of playtesting the changes.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

To people saying magicka sorcs suck in PvP (lol): look who won the last EU dueling tournament

It´s funny you bring that up because the NA tourney with a much more competetive roster was won by a stamblade.

Defilted

@Wrobel

Will ZOS at some point look at separating skills between PVE and PVP? Meaning A skill works/acts one way in PVP and a different way in PVE. This seems like to me the best way to balance the game for both aspects of the game. This really ties into a lot of changes for the sorcs that will be changing PVE in order to satisfy the very vocal PVP community.

Thank you for your response

Natas013

Well this turned out to be an exercise in futility. Just don't understand why they didn't neuter frags while they were at it. Curse isn't a DoT (nor is drain) yet they don't break rune cage… are you sure you didn't forget to fix that?

Tyrannitar

@Wrobel

So, you did read the paragraphs and essays of player feedback for stamina sorcs, but decided to ignore them?

Your surge nerf is ONLY a buff to tanks. A flat value that doesn't scale on any value would lend more benefit to higher resistances automatically... Idk how this is even an excuse for this nerf.

We asked for single-target dps so we could compete in trials, dungeons, hell, even vMSA is too difficult!

If it's the synergy between overload and crit surge you're concerned about; WE DON'T USE THAT.

Seriously. Nobody who is a stam sorc uses overload for DPS unless it's an oh-*** moment where they're caught on their third bar. The DPS is terrible on stam builds, so your excuse falls short there.

Increasing the HoT on Crit surge only makes slightly better than rally.

It used to be our class defining skill, was comparable in HPS to other classes go-to-heals, and we never used overload with it.

We asked you to remove the cooldown so DoTs could proc

What did you do?

Reverted the cooldown to a previous patch's where no-one used the skill.

What'd ya do after that? Literally chop the HPS available by 1/3.

You claim to have wanted to need more investment for sustainability by sorcs.... but last time I checked you could puncturing sweep your way through levels 1-50.

Last time I checked, every other class has higher survivability than a stam sorc.

You claim sorcs are fine because we can stack shields to negate spike damage, we can use surge for a HoT while those shields are up, we can use DoTs now....

But the thing is, from that list: STAM SORCS ONLY HAVE DOTS AND VIGOR ALREADY 1-UPS CRIT SURGE IN TERMS OF RELIABILITY/ SUSTAINABILITY


Stam sorcs asked you for attention and now literally every single one of us in endgame content wish that we hadn't.

You really have NO idea what's going on with this class, @Wrobel. Listen to your community before it disappears, because unless this is changed, I'm hopping onto the next MMO suggested by a friend.

Which sucks, because I love the Elder Scrolls series to death.

IMO we need a new lead combat designer. This one doesn't listen & doesn't do his research. He hears things, sees suggestions, but doesn't understand the underlying mechanics of each class and completely ignores the suggestions of those who do.



If you don't want power surge to be OP in combination with overload, make the magicka morph a HoT, something normal sorcs lack.

If you want stam sorcs to even be playable.... Revert it to the old form of crit surge and remove the cooldown.

You seem unreasonably stubborn against reasonably worded ideas and I can't think of any other reason than some kind of deluded "I have the best idea period" mentality.

Yeah, Stam DKS receive a DoT that's stam based, and yeah we realize it's not a spammable

The difference is, that DoT actually impacts their DPS.

Our hurricane does at about a 1/3rd of the effectiveness.

We don't have A SINGLE-TARGET-STAM-DPS-ABILITY PERIOD

Every other class does. That's the issue. Not that it's "spammable", because hell! So is wrecking blow!

The fact you repeatedly ignore stam-frags, removal of CD on CS (on stam builds), refuse to give us a debuff on an enemy, don't give us any survivability tools other than a conjunction of HoTs....


It just seems like you don't understand stam sorcs. If @FENGRUSH hurts your feelings on his streams bad enough to nerf an entire class... I've got enough reason to ditch this game.

People are being PAID to make decisions this bad.... With our money.
Doubt that'll last too much longer the way things are going, though.

Tyrannitar

Derra wrote: »

With 2.4 the class is perfectly playable but it´s not fun to play anymore for me.

I don´t find shields on mainbar fun but it´s the only logical choice now. Interest in the game vanished after 15 minutes of playtesting the changes.

Agreed, from the stam sorc front w/ surge instead of shields

Tyrannitar

^The above posts also forgot to mention another thing


@Wrobel, you took away our only stam-based CC by making us choose between even-farther-behind-in-last-place in terms of dps or just-a-little-bit-farther-in-last-place in terms of dps with the WB nerf.

You could fix that with one of the countless Crystal Punch morphs so repeatedly suggested and put down...

But that's a little too reasonable and unlikely, isn't it?

Minalan

Tyrannitar wrote: »

It just seems like you don't understand stam sorcs. If @FENGRUSH hurts your feelings on his streams bad enough to nerf an entire class... I've got enough reason to ditch this game.

People are being PAID to make decisions this bad.... With our money.
Doubt that'll last too much longer the way things are going, though.

@FENGRUSH was pretty harsh, but I'll be surprised if they couldn't take that.

On another note: I thought empowered ward was being set to 10 seconds (2.4.3).

Now they moved it back to 8, or is that a patch note miss?

Tyrannitar

Minalan wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

It just seems like you don't understand stam sorcs. If @FENGRUSH hurts your feelings on his streams bad enough to nerf an entire class... I've got enough reason to ditch this game.

People are being PAID to make decisions this bad.... With our money.
Doubt that'll last too much longer the way things are going, though.

@FENGRUSH was pretty harsh, but I'll be surprised if they couldn't take that.

I just legitimately can't understand their mentality on these stam sorc nerfs unless it's solely to get him off of Twitch for his comments on the game.

I can't picture anyone who, while trying to help the class, could come to these decisions

Feynn

Defilted wrote: »

@Wrobel

Will ZOS at some point look at separating skills between PVE and PVP? Meaning A skill works/acts one way in PVP and a different way in PVE. This seems like to me the best way to balance the game for both aspects of the game. This really ties into a lot of changes for the sorcs that will be changing PVE in order to satisfy the very vocal PVP community.

Thank you for your response

I understand how this may be a viable solution, but personally I hate it. Ultimately, that would mean playing two different games, instead of playing the same game as PvP or as PvE. I really hate the fact that I get used to one ability having a certain effect when I use it in my questing and levelling up, and then I go to Cyrodiil and it's completely different. Especially when this is not mentioned anywhere in the ability's tooltip. The first time I went to Cyrodiil and noticed that my shields were tiny compared to what I was used to, I was really baffled. Separating PvP and PvE into two different games is a very cheap way of balancing, it may be an easy fix (and it may be the best we can expect realistically with the current team) but it's really not the ideal way to go.

Defilted

I have played a lot of different MMO. I think the best example was the balancing nightmare in WOW. There was significant improvement to the consistency of the mechanics in the game when playing PVE or PVP after they made the same discussion to separate the mechanics of the skills.

PVP is going to have different reasons to change a skill to balance it as will PVE. Separating them would cut down on the confusion and make the path to changing some of the skills to make PVP/E clearer.

PainfulFAFA

Like the part where Wrobel says he balanced Sorcs based on vMA leaderboards, when we will never know if those sorcs did it without cheats...lol

catalyst10e

At the time of this post theres 55 pages in the Sorcerer Feedback Thread. The Thread that was made to discuss the up coming changes.... It became so large from the (mostly) negative feedback, a new thread had to be made just to respond to them all. Yet the response given is just "We hear you, but too bad", and this is both sad and frustrating. And while it feels like my please and concerns are just going to fall on deaf ears I will voice them all the same.

I will, like other first thank you for taking your time to respond to the feedback @Wrobel, I know this is probably a very stressful time for you, so It's good to see an effort was made to reach out to sorc players.

Wrobel wrote: »

Trapping Webs was never meant to be a spammable ability such as Lava Whip, Force Shock, Strife, etc. It costs more and is lower damage. The focus for Undaunted abilities is having powerful Synergies, so we redesigned it to feel less spammy. (Note that each Synergy has a 20-second cooldown before you can activate it again.)
We understand that Sorcerers would like more freedom with choosing what weapon to use. As a Stamina character, even without a class damaging ability, you have a diverse set of options between Bow, 1h Shield, 2h, and Dual Wield. Magicka technically has 4 options as well – Restoration Staff and 3 flavors of Destruction Staff. However Restoration staff doesn’t support offensive abilities and there is not enough diversity between the three types of Destruction Staff. We don’t have any immediate plans to change this, but we would like to give Sorcerers more compelling decisions when selecting a weapon.

The fact that it wasn't intended to be spammable, had a higher cost, and lower damage, yet was still being used that way should have been a very clear sign as to what the class is lacking. Even setting aside the spammability, It was reliable damage for when I wasn't using a staff, and promoted group dynamics in PVP by giving me a move that slowed my opponents and my fellow faction members could activate the synergy for some nice fear. If you personally felt it was TOO spammy, that's fine but why was it removed entirely from the magicka classes? Couldn't we at least keep the Tangling Webs morph instead of locking us out entirely?

Saying that we "technically" have 4 options is like saying we "Technically" have 8. I could dual wield a mace and dagger, but it doesn't mean it's actually a viable option. Magica sorcs have A destruction staff that comes in 3 flavors, and a restoration staff. I could make the argument we "technically" have 1 option, a staff. Forgive me but I hate this kinda of corporate speech where you're saying something but really saying nothing.... You yourself admit you see this, that even with the 3 flavors of destruction staves there's no real versatility, and that restoration offers no real offensive abilities outside of Light and Heavy attacks, but that you also have no plans to change it. This is the absolute worst thing the person in charge of combat balance can say. This is literally not doing your job, and that answer is unacceptable. If the Ice destruction staff had it's own skill line, that made it different from a fire destruction staff in the same way a 2 handed sword is different from a 1 handed sword, you would have a point that we have just as many options available to us. If I want a sword, I get 3 flavors, 2 handed, weapon and shield, and dual wielding. each offering very distinct differences in playstyles, and offer a wide variety of skills to compliment class skills. If I want a staff, I get 1 skill line, and while you could argue the difference between Ice and Fire are different since ice at least offers some crowd control, they're still sharing the same skill tree, they still play exactly the same way, and since we're forced to using a 2 handed weapon we're losing out on an additional set piece.

Wrobel wrote: »

We based this decision on extensive playtesting, player feedback, and data from the Maelstrom Arena leaderboards. It was our intent to make Sorcerers increase investment in maintaining their current levels of survivability. We specifically didn’t nerf the values on damage shields because we wanted to maintain their powerful feel – when the shields are up, enemies aren’t going to take you down.

The most player feedback I've seen from both sides of the argument state, just make shields crit-able and it would solve a ton of issues. Have you tried play-testing this? and if so, what were your results as to why it's not being implemented? If you haven't, why are you ignoring those fans?

Wrobel wrote: »

There are multiple advantages of being a Sorcerer when looking at damage shield options.
You can stack the Annulment shield with Conjured Ward
Conjured Ward has more distinct morph choices (increased duration vs increased power)
Conjured Ward is much cheaper than Annulment
Conjured Ward gets maximum effectiveness with all armor types, Annulment morphs require light armor
Expert Mage gives increased spell and weapon damage for slotting Conjured Ward

Shield Stacking was an advantage because we HAD to plow our points into max magicka (to keep up with DPS) which also effected the shield strength, however as you previously mentioned, "It was our intent to make Sorcerers increase investment in maintaining their current levels of survivability." This would mean less is going into max magicka, which in turn means a lower quality shield, that ALSO now needs to be recast more frequently.

The fact that Conjured Ward can be used with other armor types is essentially meaningless as most magicka builds are forced into using light armor as it is, since it provides all the magicka bonuses. All this tell me is that you gave a Ward just as powerful as our class ability to the other classes, with the excuse that it's balanced because a sorc can use their class shield AND this shield. It sounds like since I now have to put points into survivability, I might as well go with Dampen magic, as the light armor bonuses would be making it stronger than my class shield, while sacrificing the 2% extra damage from expert mage just to survive. To top that off I can use Dampen while in stealth without being knocked out of it. This would all be amazing if I were a magicka NightBlade, but unfortunately I'm a Sorcerer...

Wrobel wrote: »

It’s true that you’ll have lower ability damage when fighting enemies of the Fighters Guild, however we did increase the damage of enchantments and add the option for using poisons. Keep in mind we did not change the Banish the Wicked passive from Ffighters Guild, so you’ll still score 9 Ultimate for killing undead, Daedra, and werewolves. It was important to us that all players wanted to invest in the guild and be properly rewarded.

"Enemies of the Fighter's Guild" makes it sound like it's a small portion of the enemies we fight, it's MOST of the enemies we fight. If we aren't fighting Deadra, we're fighting undead.... In PVP this also meant werewolves and vampires. With the removal of trapping webs dealing magic damage this update almost feels like we lost 2 guilds worth of skills. As a Magicka sorc, the fighter's guild didn't offer much in the way of new skills, but the passives and Ultimate made it feel like it was still worth the minimal investment I gave it.

In closing, the Thieves guild update felt like a huge step forward. Moving magic damage to the elemental damage CP, giving magica builds options for dealing with stealthy players so they don't dominate in PVP, Meteor no longer being reflect-able... but Dark Brotherhood feels like 2 steps back with the nerfs, the poor explanations/excuses, and removing class unique-ness while not providing anything in return to balance the losses. Please hear us out, I don't wish to see my favorite class get left behind simply because we cant deal the same damage other classes can, or heal as well, or move around the battle as well.... As it stands other classes can do everything we can do, and then some. We have...summoning pets... which still isn't as viable an option.

Birdovic

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Like the part where Wrobel says he balanced Sorcs based on vMA leaderboards, when we will never know if those sorcs did it without cheats...lol

balanced on absolutely legit 200k overloads huh

lithgorin

@Wrobel Obviously I don't have the data, but I think a good start would to look at data on how many class abilities each class slots on average. Based on my experience, and my limited experience from others here on the forums, many of the sorcerer abilities are ignored, and we generally don't slot a lot of our own class abilities.

This is a problem in general because you made what should be our best passive around slotting our own abilities (which we find are bad). If it worked say like the Templar one where we just got a weapon/spell damage buff without even slotting anything then we wouldn't have any complaints there. This is just one example of a problem IMO.

I can tell you on my sorc, I only slot 3 sorcerer skills. Bounded armaments (twice), crit surge (probably going to have to switch to 2 hander and replace this), and hurricane. Occasionally I add streak on the bar to mess around with. I occasionally use a sorc ult, but they are generally bad for me. Meteor is better for damage on a large scale. Dawnbreaker obviously for my main melee damage bar. I will give you that the dark magic ult was boosted a ton and is good for trash, but generally I don't use ults on trash.

There was a ton of data on the pts forums you can read on this. We could copy/paste this data over here, but it feels like you aren't willing to have an honest discussion on this IMO. Everything we have pointed out so far you just retort with a paraphrased "Its fine" or "learn 2 play" (Sorcerers will have to adapt type comments).

Bramir

Came to this thread hoping for explanations, but all I see is a bunch of evasion and how skills available to all classes have been buffed.

Probably will shelve my sorcerer in favor of my NB, and am still considering whether to purchase DB. I'm not so upset about having to play a different class for awhile, but my opinion of ZOS developers just took a major hit, especially considering the recent discovery of rampant cheating that they could not possibly have been unaware of.

TheKingDab

I joined the forum just so I could post a reply here to add my voice to the list of disappointed Sorcerers.

I've been a fairly dedicated ESO player (and ESO plus) subscriber since it was released on the PS4. I'm fairly older in the scheme of things, so I tend to not have as much time as others to invest in multiple characters. I've only got a Sorcerer.

Historically in MMO's I've played, I've rolled a tank or healer, this was my first time going DPS. Here are some of my gripes.

Playing a Sorcerer on console is effectively a 2-3 ability setup
On the console, you've got two bars with five abilities each. In order to be competitive in PvE/PvP, I need to have a shield on both bars along with inner light from the mages guild skills. This gives me just a few available spots on each bar, it really limits the game play options and quite frankly makes it a rather boring class to play. While it's nice having two bars, switching them in combat isn't always reliable and often adds a delay. When I mix in a utility skill or two (say surge or structured entropy), it further dilutes my range of damage options.

Pets are utterly useless
Your vision of Sorcerers running around with pets has failed, just get rid of them already and replace with a viable spammable ability. It's shocking that we don't have a viable ability that can be frequently used, for that, I need to rely on Weapon abilities.

Perplexing builds
The whole sorcerer class is just very confusing, why should dual wields do more spell damage? I would think a sorcerer would be best suited with a staff. I run a staff on one bar, dual wield on another, the dual wield weapons are just for show and they serve no purpose other than to boost my spell damage. This further limits options as there's no viable dual wield abilities for a magi sorcerer.

Dealing with CC
I'm not sure about everyone else, but most of my deaths are from CC, being stunned and helpless for a short period of time. We don't have much to counter it other than hoping I got the shield up before the CC. We effectively don't have any useful CC abilities ourself and gap closing? fugetaboutit

The nerfs
You guys went a bit far, Sorcerers are already probably the weakest PvP class, certainly the least played. Now, I'll have to spend a good bit of time keeping shields up, because outside of the shields, we're super squishy.

I also want to just echo what others have said, could not agree more.

I really don't have the desire or time to level up another class, so I'm just going to cancel my ESO Plus subscription until there's some changes made to make the class viable again.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

TheKingDab wrote: »

Pets are utterly useless
Your vision of Sorcerers running around with pets has failed, just get rid of them already and replace with a viable spammable ability. It's shocking that we don't have a viable ability that can be frequently used, for that, I need to rely on Weapon abilities.

in the respect of removing summons, no, you speak only for yourself in this instance. Conjuration is a integral part of the Elder Scrolls series, and needs to be included. dont like them? dont play them. myself and many others prefer the summon/pet playstyle in many a mmo, we enjoy it.

They do not need to be removed, merely buffed, and additional control over the summons AI and Targeting needs to be implemented, that is all, but even now i prefer them, as i know the lore, and i could not play without them. ZOS would lose more players than they would game by doing as you suggested.

Im a summoner in ESO, im a necromancer in Rift, GW2, AdventureQuestWorlds, and Skyforge, i use a Carrier starship in star trek online and beam down away teams to help, i am a wizard that focuses on necromancy and summoning in DDO, I play a sorcery superhero in DC Universe online.In Swtor....come on, everyone is technically a pet class there, and since i completed every storyline, im everything there.
My point is that, however badly implemented, so many people love the summoning playstyle and struggle to make it work in ESO. Calling for its removal, instead of a buff to it, is a insult to myself and many who enjoy this playstyle.

Natas013

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

TheKingDab wrote: »

Pets are utterly useless
Your vision of Sorcerers running around with pets has failed, just get rid of them already and replace with a viable spammable ability. It's shocking that we don't have a viable ability that can be frequently used, for that, I need to rely on Weapon abilities.

in the respect of removing summons, no, you speak only for yourself in this instance. Conjuration is a integral part of the Elder Scrolls series, and needs to be included. dont like them? dont play them. myself and many others prefer the summon/pet playstyle in many a mmo, we enjoy it.

They do not need to be removed, merely buffed, and additional control over the summons AI and Targeting needs to be implemented, that is all, but even now i prefer them, as i know the lore, and i could not play without them. ZOS would lose more players than they would game by doing as you suggested.

Im a summoner in ESO, im a necromancer in Rift, GW2, AdventureQuestWorlds, and Skyforge, i use a Carrier starship in star trek online and beam down away teams to help, i am a wizard that focuses on necromancy and summoning in DDO, I play a sorcery superhero in DC Universe online.In Swtor....come on, everyone is technically a pet class there, and since i completed every storyline, im everything there.
My point is that, however badly implemented, so many people love the summoning playstyle and struggle to make it work in ESO. Calling for its removal, instead of a buff to it, is a insult to myself and many who enjoy this playstyle.

I don't think pets should be removed, like overload should, I just think they should be moved. Why should sorcs be shackled with these toggles? Why shouldn't all classes be able to summon daedra? I'll bet if they made daedric summoning a world skill line next patch, they'd be playable the following patch.

Replace it with frost magic skill line, or necromancy. I know some of you may be asking how would necromancy be any different from what we got. For one zombies have always been DoTs in TES that expire if not killed, with the exception of dead thrall in Skyrim. All sorts of mitigation passives would fit well with either frost or necromancy. I like the idea of necromancy more for its more versatile in what could be done with it, including a life steal melee spamable skill.

Turn dark exchange to a ranged damage dealing ability that converts a portion of damage dealt to mag/stam and we're in business. Break us away from being so reliant on shields!!!

Hempyre

@wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

I've read through this Q&A and I don't see where the changes to the sorc class match your listed intents in any category.

vMA is not a reliable indicator of the function of the sorc class. It requires a specific skill setup and an understanding of the specific mechanics for each of the trials within vMA. These specific setups do not translate into the other areas of game play, such as PvP. Did you note my use of the word "specific"? I hope so.

Pets have no functional method of control. No attack, stay, come, aggressive stance, passive stance, etc.. they are not reliable as a result. For those that choose to play the sorc as a pet class, this should be a concern.

Toggles are bad! End of statement. Just stop trying to make this work please. No one can afford the button real estate across two bars for lack luster abilities and uncontrollable pets.

I would love to see some diversity and build options with the sorc class, however the choice to strip our skills and replace or repair none of them doesn't lend to that line of thought.

I'm not sure where this idea for 6 second "anything" keeps coming from, but frankly it's a bad idea that needs to be dropped. This was attempted with Templar shields and no one used them as a result. 6 seconds is not 6 useable seconds. Add any other buff cast, or a bar swap or the standard Cyro lag. And 6 seconds is less than 4 usable. 10 should be the minimum and frankly with the lack of any other form of damage mitigation with the sorc class, this should be longer. We are the only class that has no means of passive mitigation without making our passives useless.

Has there been any thought on having class advocates appointed that can engage with the devs on ideas for change and practical implementation? Having an advocate that both plays the class regularly and can translate ideas and concerns in a professional manor to the dev teams may help to cut through the sea of forums voices and help polarize and clarify issues, ideas and solutions.

ToRelax

Natas013 wrote: »

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

TheKingDab wrote: »

Pets are utterly useless
Your vision of Sorcerers running around with pets has failed, just get rid of them already and replace with a viable spammable ability. It's shocking that we don't have a viable ability that can be frequently used, for that, I need to rely on Weapon abilities.

in the respect of removing summons, no, you speak only for yourself in this instance. Conjuration is a integral part of the Elder Scrolls series, and needs to be included. dont like them? dont play them. myself and many others prefer the summon/pet playstyle in many a mmo, we enjoy it.

They do not need to be removed, merely buffed, and additional control over the summons AI and Targeting needs to be implemented, that is all, but even now i prefer them, as i know the lore, and i could not play without them. ZOS would lose more players than they would game by doing as you suggested.

Im a summoner in ESO, im a necromancer in Rift, GW2, AdventureQuestWorlds, and Skyforge, i use a Carrier starship in star trek online and beam down away teams to help, i am a wizard that focuses on necromancy and summoning in DDO, I play a sorcery superhero in DC Universe online.In Swtor....come on, everyone is technically a pet class there, and since i completed every storyline, im everything there.
My point is that, however badly implemented, so many people love the summoning playstyle and struggle to make it work in ESO. Calling for its removal, instead of a buff to it, is a insult to myself and many who enjoy this playstyle.

I don't think pets should be removed, like overload should, I just think they should be moved. Why should sorcs be shackled with these toggles? Why shouldn't all classes be able to summon daedra? I'll bet if they made daedric summoning a world skill line next patch, they'd be playable the following patch.

Replace it with frost magic skill line, or necromancy. I know some of you may be asking how would necromancy be any different from what we got. For one zombies have always been DoTs in TES that expire if not killed, with the exception of dead thrall in Skyrim. All sorts of mitigation passives would fit well with either frost or necromancy. I like the idea of necromancy more for its more versatile in what could be done with it, including a life steal melee spamable skill.

Turn dark exchange to a ranged damage dealing ability that converts a portion of damage dealt to mag/stam and we're in business. Break us away from being so reliant on shields!!!

Yeah... undead expired, because they were summons just like some deadric creatures, and summons expired.