SCREW IT! I'LL SAY IT!

radiostar

It's definitely time for an Auction House, but I think we all know how that's going to be received

k9mouse

radiostar wrote: »

It's definitely time for an Auction House, but I think we all know how that's going to be received

not very well, AH sucks apples. I like the guild trader system and I hate AH.

Junkogen

And racial passives balance!!!

You left that out, OP.

STEVIL

daemonios wrote: »

show previous quotes

MikeB wrote: »

attackjet wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

People just need to come to a realization that this game is going to get no better than it already is. Heck in a lot of ways it has taken leaps and bounds backwards. I was once passionate and full of hope but the lack of communication and down right disrespect from everyone at ZOS has got to be to much for me. I still check the forums for the slightest hint of improvement for a game I once loved but I have no hope.

Then don't play the game.

This is there job, they do this everyday and are on the forums everyday.

Your the one being disrespectful

Don't like the game? don't play

I dont play and haven't, along with everyone I know, in a while. Its the worst MMO I've had the displeasure to play. Luckily I got it for free. I don't recall saying I respect anyone, professionally of course, at ZOS.

As a subscriber, let me say a big "take a hike" to all you freeloaders out there. Seriously, you played the game FOR FREE and still think you get to diss it? At least I FREAKING PAY FOR IT. And if you think the free game you played is the worst MMO out there, boy you haven't been around much, have you?

PS - This is in no way a defense of ZOS, the game has serious issues, I just have a thing against freeloaders, and entitled ones at that.

I dont mind play for free but i dont at all get the
TRIED FOR FREE
WOUND UP UNHAPPY
STOPPED PLAYING
NOW SPAM FORUMS WITH NEGATIVITY AND HOSTILITY.

I mean, free trial not work out dont most people move on to something that better suits their needs??

Takes all kinds.

SkoomaAddict420

O, and don't forget the capes !

khele23eb17_ESO

GivvumBoane wrote: »

show previous quotes

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

InfaM wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

Argruna wrote: »

*Reads, gets to this part*

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

- Someone who is competent in class balancing, because [someone] clearly has no clue what the hell is doing.
- Actual class balance overall

WoW can't even get their class balancing right after 10+ years. As much as I enjoy ESO, I doubt they will ever achieve balance either. As long a someone doing the balancing has a favorite class, as long as someone has a least favorite class, there will always be a class that is OP and one that people laugh at. Even if all the classes had the same skills, you would have those min/maxers find a way to make one of them OP.

I'd honestly rather advocate for a pvp build and a pve build. Separate it out so that pvers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pvp and pvpers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pve.

On this topic. How hard would it be to sit down. take suggestions, work the math, and adjust the numbers weekly till you achieve balance? add in new skills, morphs, and passives, and rinse and repeat.... instead of this tradition of rotating which class/spec is more powerful every 4 months. I mean from my perspective...which is limited but still present.... If x and x class are on top in every area, and x and x class are bottom in performance in several areas... I don't Buff the top performing classes. idk maybe it really is to hard to understand for us mere mortals.

I have trouble understanding it as well. Hire a team of people to do balancing. Dont let it all be decided by just one guy with a punchable face and the voice of a teenager going through puberty. Make sure there are some people good at math in this team. Have them learn the ins and outs of every class. Have them crunch the numbers and tweak the skills and passives every week or two accordingly. Eventually youre bound to get close to a balanced game.

You said it in the first line. "Hire a team". That would mean more ridiculously expensive mounts and junk constantly being added. Hiring more people to do other things means they would have to expand their income to pay said people. Expanded marketing campaign, more crown store items, more overpriced dlc, or heaven forbid, weapons and armor available on crown store.( That was not sarcasm. I will quit the second this turns P2W).

I dont mean a team of 20 people. 3-4 would be more then enough for this. Pretty sure this would not drive them bankrupt or force major policy changes in monetization.

Ok, 3 or four developers, minimum 50k a year. Extra 150-200k a year more than current costs. Money has to be made somewhere. Not to mention dead time with learning the ins and outs of the classes and such.

As we talk they're already giving 50k+ a month to the winner of that "million reason to play eso" , I could learn about coding/computer/games and fix bugs/issue on the game by myself if they hired me for that price...

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

Argruna wrote: »

*Reads, gets to this part*

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

- Someone who is competent in class balancing, because [someone] clearly has no clue what the hell is doing.
- Actual class balance overall

WoW can't even get their class balancing right after 10+ years. As much as I enjoy ESO, I doubt they will ever achieve balance either. As long a someone doing the balancing has a favorite class, as long as someone has a least favorite class, there will always be a class that is OP and one that people laugh at. Even if all the classes had the same skills, you would have those min/maxers find a way to make one of them OP.

I'd honestly rather advocate for a pvp build and a pve build. Separate it out so that pvers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pvp and pvpers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pve.

On this topic. How hard would it be to sit down. take suggestions, work the math, and adjust the numbers weekly till you achieve balance? add in new skills, morphs, and passives, and rinse and repeat.... instead of this tradition of rotating which class/spec is more powerful every 4 months. I mean from my perspective...which is limited but still present.... If x and x class are on top in every area, and x and x class are bottom in performance in several areas... I don't Buff the top performing classes. idk maybe it really is to hard to understand for us mere mortals.

I have trouble understanding it as well. Hire a team of people to do balancing. Dont let it all be decided by just one guy with a punchable face and the voice of a teenager going through puberty. Make sure there are some people good at math in this team. Have them learn the ins and outs of every class. Have them crunch the numbers and tweak the skills and passives every week or two accordingly. Eventually youre bound to get close to a balanced game.

You said it in the first line. "Hire a team". That would mean more ridiculously expensive mounts and junk constantly being added. Hiring more people to do other things means they would have to expand their income to pay said people. Expanded marketing campaign, more crown store items, more overpriced dlc, or heaven forbid, weapons and armor available on crown store.( That was not sarcasm. I will quit the second this turns P2W).

I dont mean a team of 20 people. 3-4 would be more then enough for this. Pretty sure this would not drive them bankrupt or force major policy changes in monetization.

Ok, 3 or four developers, minimum 50k a year. Extra 150-200k a year more than current costs. Money has to be made somewhere. Not to mention dead time with learning the ins and outs of the classes and such.

Do we know how much income there is and how much of that is invested back into the game? Because without this information discussing this is a bit pointless. That 200k extra might not be as big of a burden on the company budget as you think. Moreover, Im not sure this would be a full time gig. More like a 3-4 months contract and then a week or two for every DLC introducing new mechanics. I have a feeling higher player retention alone would pay for that.

Exact numbers aren't really need. Increased costs cut into profits. Profit margin is the biggest concern for these companies

And as I said, the increased player retention from having a game that is actually balanced as well as player satisfaction and brand loyalty would likely cover the cost.

But player retention only helps if they buy from the crown store or have ESO+.

If theyre not playing theyre not buying thats for sure. As long as they play some of them will buy and sub. The more happy they are with the game the more likely they are to spend money on it.

Thing is, they'd have to take that loss until it's all fixed and word spreads to get people back in and playing and spending. Alot of revenue hungry companies aren't willing to show that profit loss on quarterly statements. It sucks, but it all boils down to a profit report

They decided to give as much away on a harebrained PR stunt which did nothing for them but make a lot of people go 'why dont you use that money to improve your game?!'. Where were the quarterly statements then?

Xylphan

GivvumBoane wrote: »

show previous quotes

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

Argruna wrote: »

*Reads, gets to this part*

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

- Someone who is competent in class balancing, because [someone] clearly has no clue what the hell is doing.
- Actual class balance overall

WoW can't even get their class balancing right after 10+ years. As much as I enjoy ESO, I doubt they will ever achieve balance either. As long a someone doing the balancing has a favorite class, as long as someone has a least favorite class, there will always be a class that is OP and one that people laugh at. Even if all the classes had the same skills, you would have those min/maxers find a way to make one of them OP.

I'd honestly rather advocate for a pvp build and a pve build. Separate it out so that pvers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pvp and pvpers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pve.

On this topic. How hard would it be to sit down. take suggestions, work the math, and adjust the numbers weekly till you achieve balance? add in new skills, morphs, and passives, and rinse and repeat.... instead of this tradition of rotating which class/spec is more powerful every 4 months. I mean from my perspective...which is limited but still present.... If x and x class are on top in every area, and x and x class are bottom in performance in several areas... I don't Buff the top performing classes. idk maybe it really is to hard to understand for us mere mortals.

I have trouble understanding it as well. Hire a team of people to do balancing. Dont let it all be decided by just one guy with a punchable face and the voice of a teenager going through puberty. Make sure there are some people good at math in this team. Have them learn the ins and outs of every class. Have them crunch the numbers and tweak the skills and passives every week or two accordingly. Eventually youre bound to get close to a balanced game.

You said it in the first line. "Hire a team". That would mean more ridiculously expensive mounts and junk constantly being added. Hiring more people to do other things means they would have to expand their income to pay said people. Expanded marketing campaign, more crown store items, more overpriced dlc, or heaven forbid, weapons and armor available on crown store.( That was not sarcasm. I will quit the second this turns P2W).

I dont mean a team of 20 people. 3-4 would be more then enough for this. Pretty sure this would not drive them bankrupt or force major policy changes in monetization.

Ok, 3 or four developers, minimum 50k a year. Extra 150-200k a year more than current costs. Money has to be made somewhere. Not to mention dead time with learning the ins and outs of the classes and such.

Three or four developers? At a level high enough to not only be able to engineer behavioral aspects of the game, but also have the statistical analysis background required to correctly interpret the data from hundreds of variables and determine the best course of action? And at $50K per programmer?

Sure. And if you honestly think that's "what it takes", I can hook you up with a Nigerian Prince willing to pay you millions for helping him move his money out of the country. For a modest fee of course.

You're not going to balance, let alone test, a game of this size with 3 or 4 people (and you're certainly not going to find that caliber for $50K). You were closer with 20 people, most likely broken up into a number of teams analyzing different aspects of the game.

A balance team on a game this size uses objective statistical models analyzing terabytes of game interactions in order to get an idea of how the world is working. It is an OBJECTIVE approach that takes TIME, which is very different from the SUBJECTIVE rants you see here.

Moreover, balance teams have a tendency to be conservative when it comes to changes. It's very easy for what might appear to be a rather innocuous change to fundamentally break something else. So instead of putting out a major set of changes, you'll usually see sets of smaller changes over an extended period of time. This allows them to observe and tweak where necessary as opposed to whole sale changes that end up just wrecking the game.

Oh, and of course any such tweaks are happening on an active code base, which makes it that much more challenging.

I don't know where people get the idea that designing, implementing, and maintaining a complex software system like an MMO is easy.

Lokey0024

Xylphan wrote: »

show previous quotes

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

Argruna wrote: »

*Reads, gets to this part*

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

- Someone who is competent in class balancing, because [someone] clearly has no clue what the hell is doing.
- Actual class balance overall

WoW can't even get their class balancing right after 10+ years. As much as I enjoy ESO, I doubt they will ever achieve balance either. As long a someone doing the balancing has a favorite class, as long as someone has a least favorite class, there will always be a class that is OP and one that people laugh at. Even if all the classes had the same skills, you would have those min/maxers find a way to make one of them OP.

I'd honestly rather advocate for a pvp build and a pve build. Separate it out so that pvers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pvp and pvpers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pve.

On this topic. How hard would it be to sit down. take suggestions, work the math, and adjust the numbers weekly till you achieve balance? add in new skills, morphs, and passives, and rinse and repeat.... instead of this tradition of rotating which class/spec is more powerful every 4 months. I mean from my perspective...which is limited but still present.... If x and x class are on top in every area, and x and x class are bottom in performance in several areas... I don't Buff the top performing classes. idk maybe it really is to hard to understand for us mere mortals.

I have trouble understanding it as well. Hire a team of people to do balancing. Dont let it all be decided by just one guy with a punchable face and the voice of a teenager going through puberty. Make sure there are some people good at math in this team. Have them learn the ins and outs of every class. Have them crunch the numbers and tweak the skills and passives every week or two accordingly. Eventually youre bound to get close to a balanced game.

You said it in the first line. "Hire a team". That would mean more ridiculously expensive mounts and junk constantly being added. Hiring more people to do other things means they would have to expand their income to pay said people. Expanded marketing campaign, more crown store items, more overpriced dlc, or heaven forbid, weapons and armor available on crown store.( That was not sarcasm. I will quit the second this turns P2W).

I dont mean a team of 20 people. 3-4 would be more then enough for this. Pretty sure this would not drive them bankrupt or force major policy changes in monetization.

Ok, 3 or four developers, minimum 50k a year. Extra 150-200k a year more than current costs. Money has to be made somewhere. Not to mention dead time with learning the ins and outs of the classes and such.

Three or four developers? At a level high enough to not only be able to engineer behavioral aspects of the game, but also have the statistical analysis background required to correctly interpret the data from hundreds of variables and determine the best course of action? And at $50K per programmer?

Sure. And if you honestly think that's "what it takes", I can hook you up with a Nigerian Prince willing to pay you millions for helping him move his money out of the country. For a modest fee of course.

You're not going to balance, let alone test, a game of this size with 3 or 4 people (and you're certainly not going to find that caliber for $50K). You were closer with 20 people, most likely broken up into a number of teams analyzing different aspects of the game.

A balance team on a game this size uses objective statistical models analyzing terabytes of game interactions in order to get an idea of how the world is working. It is an OBJECTIVE approach that takes TIME, which is very different from the SUBJECTIVE rants you see here.

Moreover, balance teams have a tendency to be conservative when it comes to changes. It's very easy for what might appear to be a rather innocuous change to fundamentally break something else. So instead of putting out a major set of changes, you'll usually see sets of smaller changes over an extended period of time. This allows them to observe and tweak where necessary as opposed to whole sale changes that end up just wrecking the game.

Oh, and of course any such tweaks are happening on an active code base, which makes it that much more challenging.

I don't know where people get the idea that designing, implementing, and maintaining a complex software system like an MMO is easy.

ZoS is as subtle as a sledgehammer.

GivvumBoane

STEVIL wrote: »

show previous quotes

daemonios wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

attackjet wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

People just need to come to a realization that this game is going to get no better than it already is. Heck in a lot of ways it has taken leaps and bounds backwards. I was once passionate and full of hope but the lack of communication and down right disrespect from everyone at ZOS has got to be to much for me. I still check the forums for the slightest hint of improvement for a game I once loved but I have no hope.

Then don't play the game.

This is there job, they do this everyday and are on the forums everyday.

Your the one being disrespectful

Don't like the game? don't play

I dont play and haven't, along with everyone I know, in a while. Its the worst MMO I've had the displeasure to play. Luckily I got it for free. I don't recall saying I respect anyone, professionally of course, at ZOS.

As a subscriber, let me say a big "take a hike" to all you freeloaders out there. Seriously, you played the game FOR FREE and still think you get to diss it? At least I FREAKING PAY FOR IT. And if you think the free game you played is the worst MMO out there, boy you haven't been around much, have you?

PS - This is in no way a defense of ZOS, the game has serious issues, I just have a thing against freeloaders, and entitled ones at that.

I would pay the ESO+ membership costs if it were mandatory, but it's not. I am fairly certain everyone playing the game has paid for it. I paid $69 for mine. Preordered for Xbox 1. But, ZOS dropped the sub to get people to play. Perhaps I'll sub when I see something worthwhile. Maybe when DB drops for the crafting bags

Ch4mpTW

Lokey0024 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Xylphan wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

Argruna wrote: »

*Reads, gets to this part*

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

- Someone who is competent in class balancing, because [someone] clearly has no clue what the hell is doing.
- Actual class balance overall

WoW can't even get their class balancing right after 10+ years. As much as I enjoy ESO, I doubt they will ever achieve balance either. As long a someone doing the balancing has a favorite class, as long as someone has a least favorite class, there will always be a class that is OP and one that people laugh at. Even if all the classes had the same skills, you would have those min/maxers find a way to make one of them OP.

I'd honestly rather advocate for a pvp build and a pve build. Separate it out so that pvers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pvp and pvpers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pve.

On this topic. How hard would it be to sit down. take suggestions, work the math, and adjust the numbers weekly till you achieve balance? add in new skills, morphs, and passives, and rinse and repeat.... instead of this tradition of rotating which class/spec is more powerful every 4 months. I mean from my perspective...which is limited but still present.... If x and x class are on top in every area, and x and x class are bottom in performance in several areas... I don't Buff the top performing classes. idk maybe it really is to hard to understand for us mere mortals.

I have trouble understanding it as well. Hire a team of people to do balancing. Dont let it all be decided by just one guy with a punchable face and the voice of a teenager going through puberty. Make sure there are some people good at math in this team. Have them learn the ins and outs of every class. Have them crunch the numbers and tweak the skills and passives every week or two accordingly. Eventually youre bound to get close to a balanced game.

You said it in the first line. "Hire a team". That would mean more ridiculously expensive mounts and junk constantly being added. Hiring more people to do other things means they would have to expand their income to pay said people. Expanded marketing campaign, more crown store items, more overpriced dlc, or heaven forbid, weapons and armor available on crown store.( That was not sarcasm. I will quit the second this turns P2W).

I dont mean a team of 20 people. 3-4 would be more then enough for this. Pretty sure this would not drive them bankrupt or force major policy changes in monetization.

Ok, 3 or four developers, minimum 50k a year. Extra 150-200k a year more than current costs. Money has to be made somewhere. Not to mention dead time with learning the ins and outs of the classes and such.

Three or four developers? At a level high enough to not only be able to engineer behavioral aspects of the game, but also have the statistical analysis background required to correctly interpret the data from hundreds of variables and determine the best course of action? And at $50K per programmer?

Sure. And if you honestly think that's "what it takes", I can hook you up with a Nigerian Prince willing to pay you millions for helping him move his money out of the country. For a modest fee of course.

You're not going to balance, let alone test, a game of this size with 3 or 4 people (and you're certainly not going to find that caliber for $50K). You were closer with 20 people, most likely broken up into a number of teams analyzing different aspects of the game.

A balance team on a game this size uses objective statistical models analyzing terabytes of game interactions in order to get an idea of how the world is working. It is an OBJECTIVE approach that takes TIME, which is very different from the SUBJECTIVE rants you see here.

Moreover, balance teams have a tendency to be conservative when it comes to changes. It's very easy for what might appear to be a rather innocuous change to fundamentally break something else. So instead of putting out a major set of changes, you'll usually see sets of smaller changes over an extended period of time. This allows them to observe and tweak where necessary as opposed to whole sale changes that end up just wrecking the game.

Oh, and of course any such tweaks are happening on an active code base, which makes it that much more challenging.

I don't know where people get the idea that designing, implementing, and maintaining a complex software system like an MMO is easy.

ZoS is as subtle as a sledgehammer.

Lmao. Bruh.

khele23eb17_ESO

Xylphan wrote: »

show previous quotes

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

Argruna wrote: »

*Reads, gets to this part*

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

- Someone who is competent in class balancing, because [someone] clearly has no clue what the hell is doing.
- Actual class balance overall

WoW can't even get their class balancing right after 10+ years. As much as I enjoy ESO, I doubt they will ever achieve balance either. As long a someone doing the balancing has a favorite class, as long as someone has a least favorite class, there will always be a class that is OP and one that people laugh at. Even if all the classes had the same skills, you would have those min/maxers find a way to make one of them OP.

I'd honestly rather advocate for a pvp build and a pve build. Separate it out so that pvers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pvp and pvpers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pve.

On this topic. How hard would it be to sit down. take suggestions, work the math, and adjust the numbers weekly till you achieve balance? add in new skills, morphs, and passives, and rinse and repeat.... instead of this tradition of rotating which class/spec is more powerful every 4 months. I mean from my perspective...which is limited but still present.... If x and x class are on top in every area, and x and x class are bottom in performance in several areas... I don't Buff the top performing classes. idk maybe it really is to hard to understand for us mere mortals.

I have trouble understanding it as well. Hire a team of people to do balancing. Dont let it all be decided by just one guy with a punchable face and the voice of a teenager going through puberty. Make sure there are some people good at math in this team. Have them learn the ins and outs of every class. Have them crunch the numbers and tweak the skills and passives every week or two accordingly. Eventually youre bound to get close to a balanced game.

You said it in the first line. "Hire a team". That would mean more ridiculously expensive mounts and junk constantly being added. Hiring more people to do other things means they would have to expand their income to pay said people. Expanded marketing campaign, more crown store items, more overpriced dlc, or heaven forbid, weapons and armor available on crown store.( That was not sarcasm. I will quit the second this turns P2W).

I dont mean a team of 20 people. 3-4 would be more then enough for this. Pretty sure this would not drive them bankrupt or force major policy changes in monetization.

Ok, 3 or four developers, minimum 50k a year. Extra 150-200k a year more than current costs. Money has to be made somewhere. Not to mention dead time with learning the ins and outs of the classes and such.

Three or four developers? At a level high enough to not only be able to engineer behavioral aspects of the game, but also have the statistical analysis background required to correctly interpret the data from hundreds of variables and determine the best course of action? And at $50K per programmer?

Sure. And if you honestly think that's "what it takes", I can hook you up with a Nigerian Prince willing to pay you millions for helping him move his money out of the country. For a modest fee of course.

You're not going to balance, let alone test, a game of this size with 3 or 4 people (and you're certainly not going to find that caliber for $50K). You were closer with 20 people, most likely broken up into a number of teams analyzing different aspects of the game.

A balance team on a game this size uses objective statistical models analyzing terabytes of game interactions in order to get an idea of how the world is working. It is an OBJECTIVE approach that takes TIME, which is very different from the SUBJECTIVE rants you see here.

Moreover, balance teams have a tendency to be conservative when it comes to changes. It's very easy for what might appear to be a rather innocuous change to fundamentally break something else. So instead of putting out a major set of changes, you'll usually see sets of smaller changes over an extended period of time. This allows them to observe and tweak where necessary as opposed to whole sale changes that end up just wrecking the game.

Oh, and of course any such tweaks are happening on an active code base, which makes it that much more challenging.

I don't know where people get the idea that designing, implementing, and maintaining a complex software system like an MMO is easy.

'A balance team on a game this size'. Youre describing it as if it was a common practice in MMOs. Care to share an example of an MMO with a 20 man balance team on its payroll that you base your insights on? Also... a 4 man team of people like this is still better than a 0 man team of people like this.

Iyas

Thank you!

Sausage

Soon young grasshopper. Conan Exiles is coming so whats the hurry.

Woeler

Sure man, you gonna pay?

Dubhliam

Nifty2g wrote: »

show previous quotes

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Nifty2g I don't even know that the majority of tanks are stamina anymore. I know a lot of folks tanking on magicka DK, Magicka Sorc, or hybrid Templars.

That's my point. I don't know any Stam sorc tanks. Never met one. So why would you balance a skill around that? Surge would be great like that, and was used like that before the changes. Now it won't be used.

What are you talking about? Majority of tanks are based around Stamina as it is the main resource, people who tank with magicka are doing it wrong, the only magicka taunt would be inner rage and I don't believe that even adds a debuff like Pierce does. All other debuffs are Stamina. I can't see how a magicka dk would benefit over all the stamina morphs for tanking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ1A19xIJYo

Surge looks decent to me

Soooooo... I'm doing it wrong?
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Go make some more damage/heal tutorials and refrain from commenting tanks, thanks.

thomas1970b16_ESO

I am currently quite happy with the state of the game and the direction it is taking.

Go ZOS! Do not listen to these complainers too much. You are doing a great job!

Nifty2g

Dubhliam wrote: »

show previous quotes

Nifty2g wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Nifty2g I don't even know that the majority of tanks are stamina anymore. I know a lot of folks tanking on magicka DK, Magicka Sorc, or hybrid Templars.

That's my point. I don't know any Stam sorc tanks. Never met one. So why would you balance a skill around that? Surge would be great like that, and was used like that before the changes. Now it won't be used.

What are you talking about? Majority of tanks are based around Stamina as it is the main resource, people who tank with magicka are doing it wrong, the only magicka taunt would be inner rage and I don't believe that even adds a debuff like Pierce does. All other debuffs are Stamina. I can't see how a magicka dk would benefit over all the stamina morphs for tanking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ1A19xIJYo

Surge looks decent to me

Soooooo... I'm doing it wrong?
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Go make some more damage/heal tutorials and refrain from commenting tanks, thanks.

If you are not debuffing with Pierce etc then yes, you are doing it wrong

Dubhliam

Nifty2g wrote: »

show previous quotes

Dubhliam wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Nifty2g I don't even know that the majority of tanks are stamina anymore. I know a lot of folks tanking on magicka DK, Magicka Sorc, or hybrid Templars.

That's my point. I don't know any Stam sorc tanks. Never met one. So why would you balance a skill around that? Surge would be great like that, and was used like that before the changes. Now it won't be used.

What are you talking about? Majority of tanks are based around Stamina as it is the main resource, people who tank with magicka are doing it wrong, the only magicka taunt would be inner rage and I don't believe that even adds a debuff like Pierce does. All other debuffs are Stamina. I can't see how a magicka dk would benefit over all the stamina morphs for tanking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ1A19xIJYo

Surge looks decent to me

Soooooo... I'm doing it wrong?
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Go make some more damage/heal tutorials and refrain from commenting tanks, thanks.

If you are not debuffing with Pierce etc then yes, you are doing it wrong

Of course I am.
I know my tanking, unlike you.

SwaminoNowlino

Nifty2g wrote: »

show previous quotes

Dubhliam wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Nifty2g I don't even know that the majority of tanks are stamina anymore. I know a lot of folks tanking on magicka DK, Magicka Sorc, or hybrid Templars.

That's my point. I don't know any Stam sorc tanks. Never met one. So why would you balance a skill around that? Surge would be great like that, and was used like that before the changes. Now it won't be used.

What are you talking about? Majority of tanks are based around Stamina as it is the main resource, people who tank with magicka are doing it wrong, the only magicka taunt would be inner rage and I don't believe that even adds a debuff like Pierce does. All other debuffs are Stamina. I can't see how a magicka dk would benefit over all the stamina morphs for tanking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ1A19xIJYo

Surge looks decent to me

Soooooo... I'm doing it wrong?
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Go make some more damage/heal tutorials and refrain from commenting tanks, thanks.

If you are not debuffing with Pierce etc then yes, you are doing it wrong

@Nifty2g there is more than 1 way to do things. But who's to say a Magicka DK can't run pierce and heroic slash? My Stam temp runs purify and runs focus as well as inner rage when I am forced to tank. But I know quite a few trials tanks running a build similar to the one linked below.
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/dk-magicka-tank-the-fiery-defender/

But this is getting side tracked on a tank discussion that doesn't need to take place because you don't really need tanks anymore.

ZOS_DaryaK

We've removed a couple unconstructive posts. Please avoid personal attacks, folks.

MaxwellC

I gotta agree with @Nifty2g If you think a Magicka DK tank is better than a stamina then jokes are on you; I'd love to see your sustain when you take on a large group of mobs. Stamina DK is all around better as we have a lot more abilities/ sustain when it comes to blocking and recovering stamina. The magicka abilities we use whether it be igneous shield/hardened armor/ etc are easily used over and over again since we don't dip into that pool frequently when we tank.

We can place multiple debuffs with pierce armor/ransack and even throw down caltrops for large AoE pulls which keeps mobs clustered and easy to kill. I'm sure a Magicka DK can keep healing themselves over and over again but heavy armor synergizes best with stamina.

Thavie

Malmai wrote: »

Let me say something...

they.

don't .

care.

Yep, they don't: "We'll think about other stuff eventually, but for now we're really enjoying the fact that the game is going well."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-05-19-the-elder-scrolls-online-added-millions-of-new-players-in-2015

Lokey0024

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

I gotta agree with @Nifty2g If you think a Magicka DK tank is better than a stamina then jokes are on you; I'd love to see your sustain when you take on a large group of mobs. Stamina DK is all around better as we have a lot more abilities/ sustain when it comes to blocking and recovering stamina. The magicka abilities we use whether it be igneous shield/hardened armor/ etc are easily used over and over again since we don't dip into that pool frequently when we tank.

We can place multiple debuffs with pierce armor/ransack and even throw down caltrops for large AoE pulls which keeps mobs clustered and easy to kill. I'm sure a Magicka DK can keep healing themselves over and over again but heavy armor synergizes best with stamina.

Soooo pull from the resource pool you're blocking with on a DK? Prox det is better then caltrops (pre db) ash cloud talons volitile armor Dragons blood all require alot of magika to keep up. Still run pierce armor for taunt.

DBoS for quick resource regen, if you are using good mngnt use magma.

TBH you can tank relatively easy with both setups. I prefer mag abilities but still have decent amount of stam.

MoeCoastie

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

First and foremost, I wanted to say peace and love to all of the gamers who make up the ESO community. Much love and respect to you all. Whether you be newbie, elite, ganker, etc. Much love to you. Your contributions have help make ESO's community a pretty chill, and fun environment. And I personally appreciate it. And please understand that everything I'm about to say in this thread comes from a good mind, and with good intentions. These words come from a good place, and has the intention(s) in mind to make things better by casting light on things that people are intentionally turning a blind-eye to...

Now that that's out of the way, let's get straight to it...

Since you (ZOS) act like you don't get it, I'm going to break it down for you and make things real clear an obvious. You act like you don't see the numerous important questions people are asking in your We Are ESO Live streams, which are often repeated by different people. Let me list all the stuff that you pretend to act like you can't see, and ignore. These are some of the things we (your consumers want):
- Fixed PVP lag
- Fixed PVP bugs
- Fixed PVP AOE caps
- Fixed overall RNG
- A token system for dungeons for dungeons, trials, and arenas
- Someone who is competent in class balancing, because [someone] clearly has no clue what the hell is doing.
- Actual class balance overall
- Scaling of low level gear to VR160/CP160 (e.g. Warlock and Silks of the Sun)
- Reduction in poison effectiveness from 60%, and even less than 30%.
- Better overall RNG.
- A better support team that handles consumer issues and retention
- Better We Are ESO Live streams. We don't care about what type of bricks you used or materials to make a damn wall. We want to know about approaching content, and things that major concerns of the community.
- Better chance to get gold things (e.g. Kutas, Roe, etc.)
- An actual auction house
- Player housing
- Player barbershops
- A text chat for console
- A proper testing team that actually tests out content, before it reaches PTS or even live.
- Player feedback to actually be listened to from PTS testing, and no put things on live that were never in the PTS (cough Thieves Guild update cough)
- Account-wide mount upgrades
- Arenas and 1-on-1 battlegrounds for PVP.
- Proper attire for female character models, that fit to their figures appropriately. Less bloating please.
- Skills in PVP having their effects behaving differently than they would in PVE. And vice-versa.
- Scaling trials to VR160/CP160
- A difficulty slider

I'm sure I missed out a lot of things, but I am pretty damn sure that the things I listed would actually happen? You'd have a LOT more happy players overall, less complaints on the forums, and more gratitude and support from your player base. Because clearly, what you've been doing is making many of us long-time players hate you. And while you may be luring in new players who are not aware of the things in store, they'll soon find out about it — and then leave too. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_DaryaK @Wrobel @ZOS_ChrisStrasz @ZOS_ChrisH

Edited to remove profanity and a personal attack

While it is obvious that you are passionate about eso and its admirable...your list after the the first 2 or 3 seems like YOUR PERSONAL wishlist. Many of the points you made after "PVP Bugs" are highly debatable within the community as evidence from this thread.

Im sorry the devs do not share in your vision for ESO and the game seems like it is on its way to your uninstall log. But before you do, can I have your stuff?

clayandaudrey_ESO

MoeCoastie wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

First and foremost, I wanted to say peace and love to all of the gamers who make up the ESO community. Much love and respect to you all. Whether you be newbie, elite, ganker, etc. Much love to you. Your contributions have help make ESO's community a pretty chill, and fun environment. And I personally appreciate it. And please understand that everything I'm about to say in this thread comes from a good mind, and with good intentions. These words come from a good place, and has the intention(s) in mind to make things better by casting light on things that people are intentionally turning a blind-eye to...

Now that that's out of the way, let's get straight to it...

Since you (ZOS) act like you don't get it, I'm going to break it down for you and make things real clear an obvious. You act like you don't see the numerous important questions people are asking in your We Are ESO Live streams, which are often repeated by different people. Let me list all the stuff that you pretend to act like you can't see, and ignore. These are some of the things we (your consumers want):
- Fixed PVP lag
- Fixed PVP bugs
- Fixed PVP AOE caps
- Fixed overall RNG
- A token system for dungeons for dungeons, trials, and arenas
- Someone who is competent in class balancing, because [someone] clearly has no clue what the hell is doing.
- Actual class balance overall
- Scaling of low level gear to VR160/CP160 (e.g. Warlock and Silks of the Sun)
- Reduction in poison effectiveness from 60%, and even less than 30%.
- Better overall RNG.
- A better support team that handles consumer issues and retention
- Better We Are ESO Live streams. We don't care about what type of bricks you used or materials to make a damn wall. We want to know about approaching content, and things that major concerns of the community.
- Better chance to get gold things (e.g. Kutas, Roe, etc.)
- An actual auction house
- Player housing
- Player barbershops
- A text chat for console
- A proper testing team that actually tests out content, before it reaches PTS or even live.
- Player feedback to actually be listened to from PTS testing, and no put things on live that were never in the PTS (cough Thieves Guild update cough)
- Account-wide mount upgrades
- Arenas and 1-on-1 battlegrounds for PVP.
- Proper attire for female character models, that fit to their figures appropriately. Less bloating please.
- Skills in PVP having their effects behaving differently than they would in PVE. And vice-versa.
- Scaling trials to VR160/CP160
- A difficulty slider

I'm sure I missed out a lot of things, but I am pretty damn sure that the things I listed would actually happen? You'd have a LOT more happy players overall, less complaints on the forums, and more gratitude and support from your player base. Because clearly, what you've been doing is making many of us long-time players hate you. And while you may be luring in new players who are not aware of the things in store, they'll soon find out about it — and then leave too. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_DaryaK @Wrobel @ZOS_ChrisStrasz @ZOS_ChrisH

Edited to remove profanity and a personal attack

While it is obvious that you are passionate about eso and its admirable...your list after the the first 2 or 3 seems like YOUR PERSONAL wishlist. Many of the points you made after "PVP Bugs" are highly debatable within the community as evidence from this thread.

Im sorry the devs do not share in your vision for ESO and the game seems like it is on its way to your uninstall log. But before you do, can I have your stuff?

No, you can not have his stuff as ESO is not going to be uninstalled. This was nothing more than a see how many agree/awesome I can get troll.

Gamerscape2007

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

We've removed a couple unconstructive posts. Please avoid personal attacks, folks.

You gotta live those half assed responses to each thread they post. How about an actual response, Zos?

It getting to the point where People gave you enough chances. You keep ignoring our feeback, you keep screwing something up. Fixing what wasn't broken. You shown clear incompetency and ignorance in your eso lives I have no idea. You don't know what to do anymore. And mark my word, the moment you run out of dlcs you promised us, you're screwed. Not unless you listen to us, but you won't. The communication is so bad with you with "Responses." Like this it hard to even care for you or this game anymore.

Just watch people. Next dlc after Darkbrotherhood will continue to destroy what integrity this game had left, if it had any to begin with. That 60% cost increase poison You poorly Justified, Zos? Will make 1vxers like @Sypher quit. congrats.

psychotic13

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

We've removed a couple unconstructive posts. Please avoid personal attacks, folks.

You gotta live those half assed responses to each thread they post. How about an actual response, Zos?

It getting to the point where People gave you enough chances. You keep ignoring our feeback, you keep screwing something up. Fixing what wasn't broken. You shown clear incompetency and ignorance in your eso lives I have no idea. You don't know what to do anymore. And mark my word, the moment you run out of dlcs you promised us, you're screwed. Not unless you listen to us, but you won't. The communication is so bad with you with "Responses." Like this it hard to even care for you or this game anymore.

Just watch people. Next dlc after Darkbrotherhood will continue to destroy what integrity this game had left, if it had any to begin with. That 60% cost increase poison You poorly Justified, Zos? Will make 1vxers like @Sypher quit. congrats.

This!

How about instead of reading the thread and giving me a warning, give some constructive feedback, interact with the players to make this game better. Typical Zos!

Leogon

And I'll say it, the biggest problem with ESO right now is Wrobel.

Moderators, this is not a personal attack, it's a fact.

ManwithBeard9

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

We've removed a couple unconstructive posts. Please avoid personal attacks, folks.

You gotta live those half assed responses to each thread they post. How about an actual response, Zos?

It getting to the point where People gave you enough chances. You keep ignoring our feeback, you keep screwing something up. Fixing what wasn't broken. You shown clear incompetency and ignorance in your eso lives I have no idea. You don't know what to do anymore. And mark my word, the moment you run out of dlcs you promised us, you're screwed. Not unless you listen to us, but you won't. The communication is so bad with you with "Responses." Like this it hard to even care for you or this game anymore.

Just watch people. Next dlc after Darkbrotherhood will continue to destroy what integrity this game had left, if it had any to begin with. That 60% cost increase poison You poorly Justified, Zos? Will make 1vxers like @Sypher quit. congrats.

The person you complaining about is not a developer, just a forum moderator. And Sypher has quit before. And come back again so he can make more money from being a partnered streamer.

GivvumBoane

Xylphan wrote: »

show previous quotes

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

Argruna wrote: »

*Reads, gets to this part*

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

- Someone who is competent in class balancing, because [someone] clearly has no clue what the hell is doing.
- Actual class balance overall

WoW can't even get their class balancing right after 10+ years. As much as I enjoy ESO, I doubt they will ever achieve balance either. As long a someone doing the balancing has a favorite class, as long as someone has a least favorite class, there will always be a class that is OP and one that people laugh at. Even if all the classes had the same skills, you would have those min/maxers find a way to make one of them OP.

I'd honestly rather advocate for a pvp build and a pve build. Separate it out so that pvers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pvp and pvpers don't have to respec because an ability got nerfed in pve.

On this topic. How hard would it be to sit down. take suggestions, work the math, and adjust the numbers weekly till you achieve balance? add in new skills, morphs, and passives, and rinse and repeat.... instead of this tradition of rotating which class/spec is more powerful every 4 months. I mean from my perspective...which is limited but still present.... If x and x class are on top in every area, and x and x class are bottom in performance in several areas... I don't Buff the top performing classes. idk maybe it really is to hard to understand for us mere mortals.

I have trouble understanding it as well. Hire a team of people to do balancing. Dont let it all be decided by just one guy with a punchable face and the voice of a teenager going through puberty. Make sure there are some people good at math in this team. Have them learn the ins and outs of every class. Have them crunch the numbers and tweak the skills and passives every week or two accordingly. Eventually youre bound to get close to a balanced game.

You said it in the first line. "Hire a team". That would mean more ridiculously expensive mounts and junk constantly being added. Hiring more people to do other things means they would have to expand their income to pay said people. Expanded marketing campaign, more crown store items, more overpriced dlc, or heaven forbid, weapons and armor available on crown store.( That was not sarcasm. I will quit the second this turns P2W).

I dont mean a team of 20 people. 3-4 would be more then enough for this. Pretty sure this would not drive them bankrupt or force major policy changes in monetization.

Ok, 3 or four developers, minimum 50k a year. Extra 150-200k a year more than current costs. Money has to be made somewhere. Not to mention dead time with learning the ins and outs of the classes and such.

Three or four developers? At a level high enough to not only be able to engineer behavioral aspects of the game, but also have the statistical analysis background required to correctly interpret the data from hundreds of variables and determine the best course of action? And at $50K per programmer?

Sure. And if you honestly think that's "what it takes", I can hook you up with a Nigerian Prince willing to pay you millions for helping him move his money out of the country. For a modest fee of course.

You're not going to balance, let alone test, a game of this size with 3 or 4 people (and you're certainly not going to find that caliber for $50K). You were closer with 20 people, most likely broken up into a number of teams analyzing different aspects of the game.

A balance team on a game this size uses objective statistical models analyzing terabytes of game interactions in order to get an idea of how the world is working. It is an OBJECTIVE approach that takes TIME, which is very different from the SUBJECTIVE rants you see here.

Moreover, balance teams have a tendency to be conservative when it comes to changes. It's very easy for what might appear to be a rather innocuous change to fundamentally break something else. So instead of putting out a major set of changes, you'll usually see sets of smaller changes over an extended period of time. This allows them to observe and tweak where necessary as opposed to whole sale changes that end up just wrecking the game.

Oh, and of course any such tweaks are happening on an active code base, which makes it that much more challenging.

I don't know where people get the idea that designing, implementing, and maintaining a complex software system like an MMO is easy.

I'm aware it would probably need to be more than 3 or 4 people and that 50k is not nearly what qualified personnel would earn. It was a response to someone suggesting 3 or 4 people, and I pulled a rounded number out of my a** in an attempt to explain that ZOS would have a couple hundred thousand in lost revenue from paying additional employees. Revenue that would need to be made up elsewhere to balance budget and profits.