Can anyone from ZOS confirm why crafting node scaling was introduced?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

My question is why even introduce a battle leveled zone to begin with.

So everyone can enjoy it?

Spearshard

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

The reason it doesnt scale to your level is because your crafting level and your character's XP level are two totally different things. Your characters level as far as XP has nothing to do with your crafting level.

This right here (though I know you think it's a good thing) perfectly epitomizes why scaling off crafting is absurd. Your crafting level has nothing to do with your xp and character level and has nothing to do with the armor needs of that character.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Spearshard wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

The reason it doesnt scale to your level is because your crafting level and your character's XP level are two totally different things. Your characters level as far as XP has nothing to do with your crafting level.

This right here (though I know you think it's a good thing) perfectly epitomizes why scaling off crafting is absurd. Your crafting level has nothing to do with your xp and character level and has nothing to do with the armor needs of that character.

It doesnt have anything to do with armor for your character. Its about people being able to harvest materials they can use rather than only top tier materials. The game looks at what you need not what you want. Your crafting level is low it will give you low level mats because thats what your crafting level is. Your actual level or the gear you need is not relevant. Everyone from level 3 to vr16 is in that zone.

Pirhana7_ESO

Spearshard wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Spearshard wrote: »

It doesn't make sense, not in the least. Why would I want to waste time resources and even gold leveling crafting on alts just so that as I level I can gather mats pertinent to his level. It's makes wan more sense to scale it to player levels. I'm not saying the whole zone should just drop v16 mats. But if they have the ability to change mats for each player based on your crafting level, they can have steel appear for a lvl 16 toon and carcinium for a v1. It makes more sense than making you log in on your crafting toon and run around gathering mats. Sure it may be great for those who play their crafters and don't lose anything but it's a pain for those who have dedicated crafters for solely that reason.

Because they looked at the problem they had with Cyrodiil. They wanted people who like the open PVP world play to use Cyrodiil as an alternate way of leveling up away from the main world. The idea was you could go to CYrodiil and play your character and PVE with the watch your back feel. the excitement of PVP happening at any time from enemy players. The PROBLEM was people tried to do this but mainly stopped because they could aquire crafting material they needed at their level. They only got useless high level drops. This is why the change was made.

Clearly you didn't read what I said. I said the change to it scaling off crafting level was dumb instead of your level range. I.e. as a level 16 in wrothgar you'll find steel and hide, or as a lvl 26 dwarves steel (or whatever the equivalent), or as v15 ruby ash, etc. I never said just have it top tier across the board. That also is dumb and excludes players. This change excludes players unless they grind crafting on every toon, which is a pain in the arse. This just comes across as pointless padding to the game.

That idea was introduced BUT there was a big problem, if you levelled up then decided to do crafting later you could not gather low level materials to start with because you passed the level for those. With the current system this is never a problem and you always can gather what your skill level requires, which is also the level your gear needs should be. this is generally how most MMOs do it. So now if I want to level up in Cyrodiil i can also get materials that i need for my level gear......

Spearshard

Ok. I'll repeat myself for a third time then. The game does not look at what you need by scaling off crafting level. Ones ability in crafting in no way shape or form reflects a person's need for their specific level. Such as, if a level 22 toon goes to wrothgar if he has a crafting alt and since he planned ahead doesn't waste skill points on leveling crafting (again) he will find iron, jute, and maple, instead of the level appropriate mats. I'm not in any way saying mats should be top tier limited. What I have now stated for a third time, and what every other person has stayed is tie it to character level. Such as, a level 5 find iron, level 16 steel, level 26 dwarven, so on all the way up to max. It ties to your specific level so as you level you find the mats specifically pertinent to your level. You and the others say the current way of having it associated with crafting doesn't exclude players, except it does, unless you waste absurd amounts of time and gold relevelling crafting. Again. And again. Which is just absurd. Where as if it was tied to your specific toon's current level, you continue to adventure, collect relevant resources, and gain experience on the toon you want to play. No one is left out, nor do you have to waste time grinding crafting again, or switching to a toon you don't want to play.

Spearshard

Which is why I will repeat for now the third time. Scale off character level. A level 5 in wrothgar finds iron, level 16,

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Spearshard wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Spearshard wrote: »

It doesn't make sense, not in the least. Why would I want to waste time resources and even gold leveling crafting on alts just so that as I level I can gather mats pertinent to his level. It's makes wan more sense to scale it to player levels. I'm not saying the whole zone should just drop v16 mats. But if they have the ability to change mats for each player based on your crafting level, they can have steel appear for a lvl 16 toon and carcinium for a v1. It makes more sense than making you log in on your crafting toon and run around gathering mats. Sure it may be great for those who play their crafters and don't lose anything but it's a pain for those who have dedicated crafters for solely that reason.

Because they looked at the problem they had with Cyrodiil. They wanted people who like the open PVP world play to use Cyrodiil as an alternate way of leveling up away from the main world. The idea was you could go to CYrodiil and play your character and PVE with the watch your back feel. the excitement of PVP happening at any time from enemy players. The PROBLEM was people tried to do this but mainly stopped because they could aquire crafting material they needed at their level. They only got useless high level drops. This is why the change was made.

Clearly you didn't read what I said. I said the change to it scaling off crafting level was dumb instead of your level range. I.e. as a level 16 in wrothgar you'll find steel and hide, or as a lvl 26 dwarves steel (or whatever the equivalent), or as v15 ruby ash, etc. I never said just have it top tier across the board. That also is dumb and excludes players. This change excludes players unless they grind crafting on every toon, which is a pain in the arse. This just comes across as pointless padding to the game.

That idea was introduced BUT there was a big problem, if you levelled up then decided to do crafting later you could not gather low level materials to start with because you passed the level for those. With the current system this is never a problem and you always can gather what your skill level requires, which is also the level your gear needs should be. this is generally how most MMOs do it. So now if I want to level up in Cyrodiil i can also get materials that i need for my level gear......

That is a fair point, but it seems more probable that the current system inconveniences more people. For instance, after the hypothetical person you mentioned deconned items and leveled their craft, every toon after that one is in the same situation. So while he may have to decon some trash to level for a few crafting levels, it's done and over. This system forces you to repeatedly be inconvenienced over and over.

N0TPLAYER2

Isn't one thread enough? Don't like it? Go earn the points. Put them on crafting. Problem solved.

I've simply ignored the first thread and now theirs two. They scaled it so people who DONT HAVE POINTS IN CRAFTING (i.e. - you!) don't get the rewards that people who dedicate time and put the points into it do.

Simple enough answer?

Pirhana7_ESO

Spearshard wrote: »

Which is why I will repeat for now the third time. Scale off character level. A level 5 in wrothgar finds iron, level 16,

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Spearshard wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Spearshard wrote: »

It doesn't make sense, not in the least. Why would I want to waste time resources and even gold leveling crafting on alts just so that as I level I can gather mats pertinent to his level. It's makes wan more sense to scale it to player levels. I'm not saying the whole zone should just drop v16 mats. But if they have the ability to change mats for each player based on your crafting level, they can have steel appear for a lvl 16 toon and carcinium for a v1. It makes more sense than making you log in on your crafting toon and run around gathering mats. Sure it may be great for those who play their crafters and don't lose anything but it's a pain for those who have dedicated crafters for solely that reason.

Because they looked at the problem they had with Cyrodiil. They wanted people who like the open PVP world play to use Cyrodiil as an alternate way of leveling up away from the main world. The idea was you could go to CYrodiil and play your character and PVE with the watch your back feel. the excitement of PVP happening at any time from enemy players. The PROBLEM was people tried to do this but mainly stopped because they could aquire crafting material they needed at their level. They only got useless high level drops. This is why the change was made.

Clearly you didn't read what I said. I said the change to it scaling off crafting level was dumb instead of your level range. I.e. as a level 16 in wrothgar you'll find steel and hide, or as a lvl 26 dwarves steel (or whatever the equivalent), or as v15 ruby ash, etc. I never said just have it top tier across the board. That also is dumb and excludes players. This change excludes players unless they grind crafting on every toon, which is a pain in the arse. This just comes across as pointless padding to the game.

That idea was introduced BUT there was a big problem, if you levelled up then decided to do crafting later you could not gather low level materials to start with because you passed the level for those. With the current system this is never a problem and you always can gather what your skill level requires, which is also the level your gear needs should be. this is generally how most MMOs do it. So now if I want to level up in Cyrodiil i can also get materials that i need for my level gear......

That is a fair point, but it seems more probable that the current system inconveniences more people. For instance, after the hypothetical person you mentioned deconned items and leveled their craft, every toon after that one is in the same situation. So while he may have to decon some trash to level for a few crafting levels, it's done and over. This system forces you to repeatedly be inconvenienced over and over.

This game should never have let you gather materials higher than your craft skill. This should go for all zones. You shouldnt be able to gather advanced materials without skilling up that craft. being able to obtain higher level materials should have had a requirment from the beginning, this would make crafters more important and well as make resources (especially higher rank resources more valuable). the fact that a level 1 can go harvest the highest level ore is kinda dumb. Yes this just my opinion... but im sure alot would agree, things like this makes choices more meaningful. Also its not like their is really a limit to skill points, you can have everything which i also dont like.

Elsonso

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

This game should never have let you gather materials higher than your craft skill. This should go for all zones. You shouldnt be able to gather advanced materials without skilling up that craft. being able to obtain higher level materials should have had a requirment from the beginning, this would make crafters more important and well as make resources (especially higher rank resources more valuable). the fact that a level 1 can go harvest the highest level ore is kinda dumb. Yes this just my opinion... but im sure alot would agree, things like this makes choices more meaningful. Also its not like their is really a limit to skill points, you can have everything which i also dont like.

I think that is silly. WoW does this. I cannot pick up a rock, cut wood, or pick a plant without special training for each type of rock, plant, or tree.

NewBlacksmurf

Spearshard wrote: »

Ok. I'll repeat myself for a third time then. The game does not look at what you need by scaling off crafting level. Ones ability in crafting in no way shape or form reflects a person's need for their specific level. Such as, if a level 22 toon goes to wrothgar if he has a crafting alt and since he planned ahead doesn't waste skill points on leveling crafting (again) he will find iron, jute, and maple, instead of the level appropriate mats. I'm not in any way saying mats should be top tier limited. What I have now stated for a third time, and what every other person has stayed is tie it to character level. Such as, a level 5 find iron, level 16 steel, level 26 dwarven, so on all the way up to max. It ties to your specific level so as you level you find the mats specifically pertinent to your level. You and the others say the current way of having it associated with crafting doesn't exclude players, except it does, unless you waste absurd amounts of time and gold relevelling crafting. Again. And again. Which is just absurd. Where as if it was tied to your specific toon's current level, you continue to adventure, collect relevant resources, and gain experience on the toon you want to play. No one is left out, nor do you have to waste time grinding crafting again, or switching to a toon you don't want to play.

That would make absolutely no sense for DLC but it's exactly how non scaled zones work.
Both exist in different areas which makes the entire experience perfect.

This system as is, works the best for all

Dagonthir

Hey guys, I started this thread because I was hoping to get a response from the devs to see if they'd provide any additional insight that other players haven't already brought up. I think that having this discussion would make more sense in the other thread since we don't really need more than one thread.

As for this thread, it would be ideal if the devs could answer the original post and then lock the thread.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Its been explained numerous times why the nodes do not scale off of your actual level. I dont know what else to say.

badbeansnub18_ESO

This sucks. I don't like it. My crafting points are on other characters, but I can't gather high level material for them now. You need points into making high level crafting items to see high level crafting material. It sucks! I can't collect with my adventure character and send to my crafting character. All I find in Wrothgar is rawhide and iron and jute and maple wood.

Bartdude

there simply is no argument here, if you make the choice not to put points into crafting then that's your choice. you made a crafter that can craft all lvl's so that char can collect the mats you require for any char in any of the zones for any lvl...simple. but this is not about crafting it's about farming, read between the lines, what there asking for is to be able to collect top tier mats on any max lvl char for the simple purpose of selling them.

Benie

I can see the problem with the scaling of nodes. I wanted to have a high-leveled char (a V16), and have him make all the gear for my alts.
With this scaling, I won't be able to do that. I have to force my lower leveled chars to also get crafting (instead of questing).

Don't like it. But there's not a damn thing I can do about it. I'm sure ZoS has their reasons. Maybe they did it because the old way is "too easy". This is how I always feel when MMO devs do a stupid decision that's against something I wanted/needed.

Bartdude

Benie wrote: »

I can see the problem with the scaling of nodes. I wanted to have a high-leveled char (a V16), and have him make all the gear for my alts.
With this scaling, I won't be able to do that. I have to force my lower leveled chars to also get crafting (instead of questing).

Don't like it. But there's not a damn thing I can do about it. I'm sure ZoS has their reasons. Maybe they did it because the old way is "too easy". This is how I always feel when MMO devs do a stupid decision that's against something I wanted/needed.

you still can, your alts can still pick up the matts they require and so can a top lvl crafter. scaling only applies to TG and Orsinium.

Benie

Bartdude wrote: »

you still can, your alts can still pick up the matts they require and so can a top lvl crafter. scaling only applies to TG and Orsinium.

Ohh... well, there's egg on my face. What I get for not looking deep into this thread. That's good to hear.

pecheckler

They claim to have made this change so low level players could enjoy the new DLC but in reality they did it to *** off all the long-time dedicated players who had decided to use alternate characters for crafting long ago. I just assumed someone at Zenimax got their jollies off knowing how many hours of customer time would be wasted by the change. I had to level three skills from below 10 to 50 thanks to this stupid change.

johu31

pecheckler wrote: »

I had to level three skills from below 10 to 50 thanks to this stupid change.

What did you do after dinner?

NeillMcAttack

I'm honestly goin to have a brain aneurysm reading through all the narrow minded comments here. My patience on the subject is wearing very thin.

"This system works best for everyone!!"
Just, NO! Only for those that are more than happy wasting skill points just so they can harvest particular nodes. What about me who feels that time spent in the new content with a non crafting character is time wasted? I know that VR levels are being removed next quarter, so it's not enough that my exp gained is almost pointless (bar champ points, not at cap but if i was???) but I also can't farm mats to make my alt gear too!!!!! Zero Progress!!!

"It was introduced so that players would find mats that they could use for their crafting level".
That isn't actually how the natural progression of craft leveling works I'm afraid. De-Conning is what levels a craft. Sure you might argue it's so they can actually make something but what's the point if it isn't something of his level? And what about when his crafting skill surpasses his own level? Then he can only craft stuff he can't use! THINK MAN!

"If you want the V16 mats just log on to your crafter and farm them."
So now we are accepting the premise that a characters progression be tied to NOT PLAYING THAT CHARACTER!! Unbelievable!

"It's only two zones." The only two zones that I have to pay extra for. The only two zones i have not already played all the content in. Why is there no means of progression in these zones? Like the rest of the game!

(My favorite though) "This game should never let you farm materials higher than your crafting level." Let's just call it 'Elder crafters online' because that is what you have suggested. That everyone NEEDS to craft in order to attain crafted sets, and not every player, ever character!! We may as well bind all crafted gear with this one. Speechless.

*takes a deep breath*
I didn't even turn this on last night. I don't want to play the content on my main. And I don't want to feel that I am stunting my own progression playing my dear alts. I would much rather wait until this issue is resolved. I honestly see this as being a major oversight on the Devs part because the logic tells me they either intended to force every character into crafting ones own gear or were not thinking how this change effects progress on alternate, non-crafting chars.

helediron

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I'm honestly goin to have a brain aneurysm reading through all the narrow minded comments here. My patience on the subject is wearing very thin.
...snip...

Well, you poked the wasp nest, didn't you? The EU game is again broken, it throws me out after a minute, and this thread didn't die to my threats. I could as well chime in. <insert appropriate cat picture here>

I've never seen direct explanation why scaling was made. I don't think there has to be explanation either. These choices just happen during game design.I remember some fragments touching it in natch potes and in forum. The official feedback thread in PTS section was first thread about this scaling.

First, there had to be some scaling. Without it, we would have bots fresh from prison back here farming. So, ZOS had to pick some scaling. The option to have best mats in area, where you can arrive at any level must not happen.

Scaling to character level would have failed badly because many do have dedicated crafters at low levels. It is way more effort to level up from thirties to vr15, than vr16 learning crafts. So, option where the area scales only to character level is not happening. It simply would favor normal players over crafters in farming, which is essential part of crafting.

Having said that, ZOS could add secondary scaling to character level. Nodes would scale to crafting skill or character level, whichever is higher. That would not hurt anybody. It would be simple to implement and solves issue with vr16 "can't craft" toons.

And having said that, it takes about a week for vr16 to level up the crafts by deconstructing high level loot. The deconstructing itself takes an hour. The scaling to craft skills is just a minor obstacle to adapt to. E.g.

Spearshard wrote: »

you waste absurd amounts of time and gold relevelling crafting.

is not true. I've leveled many alts to max crafts. It's easy.

I think vast majority of vr16 players already have craftings maxed and they just assigned the skill points. over 90% or my clients don't request improving. That means they can do it themselves, and must have developed their crafting skill to at least close to max.

sirrmattus

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Why and official?

Probably not going to get the answer you what but the real answer is fairly obvious. Since the characters level in t is logical the crafting nodes have to scale to the character in some way. Having it scale to the characters crafting level is the best way to do that.

It would be silly having a new player just starting out and cannot get any matts to craft with because everything is for gear 60 levels above him/her.

Edit: to answer the probable reply, I have 4 v16 characters and all of them can harvest v16 level matts. It's easy to accomplish, but a choice to do this or not.

so you leveled wood, cloth and blacksmith on 4 v16s' to max? wow

I_killed_Vivec

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I'm honestly goin to have a brain aneurysm reading through all the narrow minded comments here that don't agree with me.

FTFY

Just because people don't agree doesn't make them narrow minded (or are you narrow minded for not agreeing with them?).

I'm more and more convinced that the bleats of "It's so unfair..." only go to show that ZoS got it right.

Your decisions (skill point allocation, CP allocation, choice of gear, etc.) should have consequences.

Xendyn

sirrmattus wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Why and official?

Probably not going to get the answer you what but the real answer is fairly obvious. Since the characters level in t is logical the crafting nodes have to scale to the character in some way. Having it scale to the characters crafting level is the best way to do that.

It would be silly having a new player just starting out and cannot get any matts to craft with because everything is for gear 60 levels above him/her.

Edit: to answer the probable reply, I have 4 v16 characters and all of them can harvest v16 level matts. It's easy to accomplish, but a choice to do this or not.

so you leveled wood, cloth and blacksmith on 4 v16s' to max? wow

I have 5 so far and the other 2 LVL32 and LVL 8) are on their way.
Yes it Can be done but

helediron wrote: »

Having said that, ZOS could add secondary scaling to character level. Nodes would scale to crafting skill or character level, whichever is higher. That would not hurt anybody. It would be simple to implement and solves issue with vr16 "can't craft" toons.

Why not do both? It seems simple enough to add a secondary check and would solve it for everyone.

AdamBourke

Just to be clear, it doesn't scale to the actual crafting level right? In my experience it seems to be scaled to the passive ability that lets you choose different materials. My Blacksmith is level 46, but I still see Iron Ore in Hew's Bane because I haven't put any skill points into the Blacksmithing passive.

On the other hand, I have 10/10 on my Tailoring skill, and I see Ancestor Silk everywhere. First place I've found it in game! (Because still in Craglorns Silver. Had a brief trip to craglorn at VR2, but was too busy running away to pick up mats...)

Oldmanlawlor

Well, personally, material scaling is the only good thing about the new DLC. I mean; minuscule map, absolutely Horriblly textured mountains and cliffs, two bosses and two public tiny dungeons. And one trial.

And as said, for me, easily farming v16 materials and farming Reporas is the only thing making my purchase worthwhile. A large amount of my main guild are actually angry about the Latest dlc, and I don't blame them on some levels.

helediron

Xendyn wrote: »

...snip...

helediron wrote: »

Having said that, ZOS could add secondary scaling to character level. Nodes would scale to crafting skill or character level, whichever is higher. That would not hurt anybody. It would be simple to implement and solves issue with vr16 "can't craft" toons.

Why not do both? It seems simple enough to add a secondary check and would solve it for everyone.

O_o
"Nodes would scale to crafting skill or character level, whichever is higher". Ain't that both?

NeillMcAttack

helediron wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I'm honestly goin to have a brain aneurysm reading through all the narrow minded comments here. My patience on the subject is wearing very thin.
...snip...

First, there had to be some scaling. Without it, we would have bots fresh from prison back here farming. So, ZOS had to pick some scaling. The option to have best mats in area, where you can arrive at any level must not happen.

Scaling to character level would have failed badly because many do have dedicated crafters at low levels. It is way more effort to level up from thirties to vr15, than vr16 learning crafts. So, option where the area scales only to character level is not happening. It simply would favor normal players over crafters in farming, which is essential part of crafting.

Having said that, ZOS could add secondary scaling to character level. Nodes would scale to crafting skill or character level, whichever is higher. That would not hurt anybody. It would be simple to implement and solves issue with vr16 "can't craft" toons.

And having said that, it takes about a week for vr16 to level up the crafts by deconstructing high level loot. The deconstructing itself takes an hour. The scaling to craft skills is just a minor obstacle to adapt to. E.g.

Spearshard wrote: »

you waste absurd amounts of time and gold relevelling crafting.

is not true. I've leveled many alts to max crafts. It's easy.

I think vast majority of vr16 players already have craftings maxed and they just assigned the skill points. over 90% or my clients don't request improving. That means they can do it themselves, and must have developed their crafting skill to at least close to max.

The only statement you have made in this that holds weight is the fact that scaling to either char level or crafting level hurts nobody. Besides that, your statements are all untrue.

The amount of mats it would take for a straight out the gate character to reach max level in all crafts is INSANE. That is the truth. And that is assuming you are boosting it with a friend which takes two people and doubles the actual game time required. Assuming you are solely actually farming and deconstructing the dropped loot. It would would take far more than a week. Maybe with 24 hour hard farming on a character with 200 inventory space... maybe! Then you have the required 35ish skill points required. If it was a V16 char (which is only a small part of the argument as chars of all levels should have access to the mats of his/her level) it might move slightly quicker as all or most of the found loot would give the maximum allowed inspiration gain on deconstruction.
But this is all irrelevant because nobody needs two chars that can craft max level gear. It's not the intended design. And if it is, it is nothing more than pointless padding "gameplay".

Also, the dedicated low level crafter argument is nonsense. Because again, you are claiming that in order for me to be able to effeciently farm the mats needed to progress my alt, I should be required to NOT PLAY THAT CHARACTER, which is the reason for this entire discussion. I want to play and progress my alts the same way I always did. How can you not see that?

Callous2208

Wait, wait, wait. If the argument here is that you're utilizing a crafting alt, and now your v16 can't pick up top tier mats because he doesn't have a craft skill leveled...then why don't you just go to the same "scaled," zone with your crafting alt and pick up the mats?

NeillMcAttack

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I'm honestly goin to have a brain aneurysm reading through all the narrow minded comments here.

FTFY

Just because people don't agree doesn't make them narrow minded (or are you narrow minded for not agreeing with them?).

I'm more and more convinced that the bleats of "It's so unfair..." only go to show that ZoS got it right.

Your decisions (skill point allocation, CP allocation, choice of gear, etc.) should have consequences.

I fully stand by my comments and especially my reasoning for them. You have literally proven my point of the narrow minded comment in fact by attacking the tiniest portion of my statement that doesn't even relate to the discussion. Perhaps I should thank you because now even that part of my statement rings true.