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ATTN: ZOS ~~Mega Post of Issues with the Game and its Current Problems with Balance!!!

NVNiko
NVNiko
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@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno

These are the collaborative opinions of the guild "M12", not a single streamer or 1 v X'r such as Fengrush, Sypher, or King Richard. We should be focusing on the opinions to the Majority of ESO players and just one field of Gameplay. M12 is a community of 500 "Active" guild members on the AD NA server most of which have been known to top the Leaderboards in both PVE and PVP content over the duration from the game from beta until today. We have been quiet for awhile but it's time for our voice to be heard and answered from ZOS and the community and this is the reason for this post.


Class Abilities

Chart describing imbalances between classes >https://www.dropbox.com/s/bnc7qpewlgwy7pk/ESO balance.docx?dl=0
(Great chart submitted by @GreyBrow )
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The important thing to keep in mind is that these changes only require the modification of 15 skills. Each class ahs 15 skills iwth two possible morph choices, which provides 30 different options. If these changes were implemented, it would allow for the possibility of each class to have access to the same BASIC skill set, while still providing unique class identity through the remaining 15 morph options, ultimates, passives, itemization, armor type and weapon skill lines. Clearly, this is the most logical approach to solving the problems of class balance, at least initially, eliminating the QQ that "this or that is OP" while still allowing for class identity and satisfying the issue of class equality and "play how you want"

--Major Resolve needs to be uniform across all classes, specifically the nightblade and the templar which should be able to ingnite the Major resolve buff comparable to the way Dragon Knights and Sorcerer's can.

--Every class should have an intant-cast skill that does immediate damage on cast. Specifically the Sorcerer which has no instant cast abilities that do damage on cast comparable to flame whip, funnel health, surprise attack, or puncturing sweep. Instead Sorcs have to rely on force pulse where the other classes do not.

--Templars need a hard crowd control ability comparable to the other classes. Certain primary class abilities should be uniform across all classes.
Shields

- Every Class should have the ability to play as a DPS, Tank or Healer comparably as envisioned by Zenimax's original game model. Certain classes should have certain advantages and disadvantages when it comes to each role of the game: Tanking, Damage dealing, and healing. And at the same time be able to have similar mitigation, dps, and heals

- Magicka and Stamina users should have separate morphs in class trees this way stamina and magicka users have equal opportunities when creating build and not being penalized for being a magicka or stamina user. Each user should have equal opportunities in thier style of play.

OverFlow Damage-"Damage shields in ESO absorb unmitigated damage (don't factor in armor, spell resist, etc). If a player has 1k damage left on their shield, but is facing an incoming attack dealing 10k unmitigated damage, the shield will absorb that 1k while the remaining 9k hits the player directly without factoring in their armor, spell resist, etc. This is not something players can affect (e.g. by relogging) but is how damage shields work in the game. Best way around is to spam your damage shields so they are always refreshed. For the same reason, the damage shield glyphs on weapons are terrible choices because it will likely cause you to take more damage rather than less since the shield is so small virtually any incoming attack will go through mostly unmitigated."

Players want the ability to crit against shields and proc specific class dps passives (*Burning Light) against shields, if this is the case shields need to be buffed in someway to compensate for the extra damage from the crits and procs, maybe a 75% shield in pvp.
http://gamerelated.info/2015/08/25/elder-scrolls-online-long-standing-bugsissues-that-all-players-should-be-aware-of/


Magicka VS Stamina Imbalances

Light Armor Vs Medium Armor - Besides the differences in actual physical armor the passives each type of armor get are not even comparable. The Agility passive gives 12% more weapon damage where the Concentration passive only gets 4884 Spell Penetraion. The Concentration passive needs to get buffed by offering more Penetration or Spell Damage

Spell Damage Vs Weapon Damage - More or less Weapon damage users have about 1000 more raw damage over magicka builds. This is a huge imbalance especially when it comes to aoe's that have more range

Elemental Ring Vs Steel Tornado - Steel Tornado has a range of 12.5 meters which actually hits for 490 square meters and Elemental Ring has a range of 6 meters which hits at 113 sq meters. The imbalance in range and coupled with the imbalance in raw damage makes magicka users half as effective than stamina users in aoe situations. Besides that Stamina users also get there damaged buffed by the ruffian passive as well as the Duel Weld execute while while both morphs of elemental ring get purged!!

Flawless Dawnbreaker - 8% more raw damage for Stamina users where Magicka users have no equivalent that comes close to this. This skill needs to be changed or give something comparable to magicka users.


Champion Points
Spell Damage Mitigation VS Physical Damage Mitigation
- We have 2 perks that mitigate spell damage which are Elemental Defender and Hardy. But when it comes to physical mitigation we only have the armor perks which gives us diminished returns specifically on light armor/magicka users
Elenente - v16 Magick Sorc
Niko Ardentinferno - V16 Magick DK
Shadow Spellweaver - V16 Magicka NB
Elen'ente - V16 Stamina Sorc
Git Gud Plox - V16 Stamina NB
Aedric Wrath - V16 Magicka Templar
Elf Slapper - V16 Stamina Templar
Healthy Overload - V16 Nord Sorc
  • kaithuzar
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    Awesome post! Great job to all involved!
    Member of:
    Fantasia - osh kosh b-josh
    Just Chill - Crown's house
    GoldCloaks - Durruthy test server penga
    Small Meme Guild - Mano's house

    Former member of:
    Legend - Siffer fan boy club
    TKO (tamriel knight's order) - free bks
    Deviance - Leonard's senche tiger
    Purple - hamNchz is my hero
    Eight Divines - myrlifax stop playing final fantasy
    WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
    Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
    World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
    M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg
  • NVNiko
    NVNiko
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    Not exactly the same skill but every class deserves some sort of decent self heal, cc, or inta-cast damage ability. Why is Maelstrom 10 times harder on a DK? Why can't a magicka Templar contend with DK DPS? I am in no way saying every class should have the same exact abilities with different animations just give them something comparable.
    Edited by NVNiko on January 14, 2016 6:14PM
    Elenente - v16 Magick Sorc
    Niko Ardentinferno - V16 Magick DK
    Shadow Spellweaver - V16 Magicka NB
    Elen'ente - V16 Stamina Sorc
    Git Gud Plox - V16 Stamina NB
    Aedric Wrath - V16 Magicka Templar
    Elf Slapper - V16 Stamina Templar
    Healthy Overload - V16 Nord Sorc
  • kaithuzar
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    I feel that the authors were trying to say:
    "In order to have balance, we must first get back to the basics of having everything be equivalent, then you can add on to each one to make it unique."
    I believe this was how Zenimax/Bethesda started the game, as dk's & sorc's have "similar/some equivalent" abilities, yet nightblades & templars are completely not inline with the first two.
    Member of:
    Fantasia - osh kosh b-josh
    Just Chill - Crown's house
    GoldCloaks - Durruthy test server penga
    Small Meme Guild - Mano's house

    Former member of:
    Legend - Siffer fan boy club
    TKO (tamriel knight's order) - free bks
    Deviance - Leonard's senche tiger
    Purple - hamNchz is my hero
    Eight Divines - myrlifax stop playing final fantasy
    WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
    Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
    World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
    M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg
  • Julianos
    Julianos
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    Awsome post. You explained pretty much everything why i stopped playing this game. Agreed %100.
  • Nifty2g
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    Blazing spear is a ground effect from templar
    #MOREORBS
  • gw2only1b14_ESO
    gw2only1b14_ESO
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    Each class has its advantages and disadvantages, if they were all equal that would be boring as hell not to mentiom theyd be played similar

    Kinda correct as you may have to go thru your weapon skill set to gain a similar ability that is the strength of another class or go thru a pve/pvp line to gain some similar type of skill as well. I prefer class diversity and play style diversity and hybrid classes are great to the game

    Your so right there would be cookie cutter but yet thats what players are trying for.

    TBH that is what alts are for...
  • leandro.800ub17_ESO
    leandro.800ub17_ESO
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    I agree with most things but dont confuse balance with same skills for all every class has to feal unique
  • NVNiko
    NVNiko
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    I agree with most things but dont confuse balance with same skills for all every class has to feal unique

    Agreed but people seem to think I want all the classes to be the same in reality I just want skills to be comparable to other skills or have each class have a specialized version of it
    Elenente - v16 Magick Sorc
    Niko Ardentinferno - V16 Magick DK
    Shadow Spellweaver - V16 Magicka NB
    Elen'ente - V16 Stamina Sorc
    Git Gud Plox - V16 Stamina NB
    Aedric Wrath - V16 Magicka Templar
    Elf Slapper - V16 Stamina Templar
    Healthy Overload - V16 Nord Sorc
  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    There are 2 type of people who should be responding to this post.
    #1) The player who has played all toons.
    #2) The player who is considered by others (possibly himself) as an expert of a particular class. (& that person should only comment regarding their class).
    Member of:
    Fantasia - osh kosh b-josh
    Just Chill - Crown's house
    GoldCloaks - Durruthy test server penga
    Small Meme Guild - Mano's house

    Former member of:
    Legend - Siffer fan boy club
    TKO (tamriel knight's order) - free bks
    Deviance - Leonard's senche tiger
    Purple - hamNchz is my hero
    Eight Divines - myrlifax stop playing final fantasy
    WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
    Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
    World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
    M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg
  • timidobserver
    timidobserver
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    There is a lot of good stuff in this post. The imbalances need to be addressed. However, I am NOT in favor of this level of streamlining. I agree that all classes need their abilities to have similar levels of power/usefulness, but they don't need to become mechanically identical and only visually different.
    Edited by timidobserver on January 14, 2016 6:50PM
    V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
    V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
    V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
    V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
    V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)

  • NVNiko
    NVNiko
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    I think it would have been better had you removed the adjectives and personal opinions from your chart that is trying to give an objective presentation of what each class has and does not have. I spent more time saying to myself "this person is overrating templars" (jabs "huge" self heal? No. Liquid Lightning "high" damage? No. BoL "huge" self heal? What does that make healing ward, gargantuan? RD, "huge" damages below <35%? No. Shards "High initial damage"? No) than anything else.

    Hold on--
    Liquid Lightning=Is the most powerful Dot in PVE!!
    BOL= Not a huge self heal??? (lol)

    I really don't understand what you're trying to say You're either ill informed or you misinterpreted the OP
    Edited by NVNiko on January 14, 2016 6:55PM
    Elenente - v16 Magick Sorc
    Niko Ardentinferno - V16 Magick DK
    Shadow Spellweaver - V16 Magicka NB
    Elen'ente - V16 Stamina Sorc
    Git Gud Plox - V16 Stamina NB
    Aedric Wrath - V16 Magicka Templar
    Elf Slapper - V16 Stamina Templar
    Healthy Overload - V16 Nord Sorc
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Classes shouldn't be uniform...That defeats the purpose of Classes..

    However....One class shouldn't be vastly better then another.

  • NVNiko
    NVNiko
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    miss post
    Edited by NVNiko on January 14, 2016 6:53PM
    Elenente - v16 Magick Sorc
    Niko Ardentinferno - V16 Magick DK
    Shadow Spellweaver - V16 Magicka NB
    Elen'ente - V16 Stamina Sorc
    Git Gud Plox - V16 Stamina NB
    Aedric Wrath - V16 Magicka Templar
    Elf Slapper - V16 Stamina Templar
    Healthy Overload - V16 Nord Sorc
  • wharf
    wharf
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    if magic based classes have the same damage as stamina based classes it'd be much more imbalanced than it is now. Most of the time magic classes have much more ability to heal/stay alive and have multiple damage shields. Can you imagine a magic templar vs a stamina templar with the same damage where one gets healed through his main dps (puncturing sweeps) and can spam breath of life vs a stamplar who has rally/vigor...not that fair
  • Lysette
    Lysette
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    kaithuzar wrote: »
    There are 2 type of people who should be responding to this post.
    #1) The player who has played all toons.
    #2) The player who is considered by others (possibly himself) as an expert of a particular class. (& that person should only comment regarding their class).

    and 3) roleplayers, who are role playing since years and do want all but classes, which are hardly distinguishable, because they are capable of about the same, just with another name and another animation. This is just not desirable and that is basically what is suggested here.
  • Tandor
    Tandor
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    NVNiko wrote: »
    Not exactly the same skill but every class deserves some sort of decent self heal, cc, or inta-cast damage ability.

    Why? What's wrong with each class having its own role? Why does everyone want to have everything these days...

  • Nifty2g
    Nifty2g
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    Fuzzybrick wrote: »
    No, no, no. @ZOS_GinaBruno please ignore this post. Classes SHOULD NOT BE EQUAL. One class should always be better than another. One class should always do something another can't. If all classes are "balanced" as you say there will be no need for any of my alts. I want to roll different characters because they are DIFFERENT!

    Well, feedback is just that. It's feedback, and everyone is entitled to it. :) When we review feedback, it's coming from many different sources and players, and part of our job (the studio) is to determine what changes and adjustments to make based on many factors - including player feedback.

    That said, our general philosophy in regards to classes is not to give everyone the same version of a spell with a different name. We want each class to feel unique and have their own special identity.
    @ZOS_GinaBruno I stole ZOS's favorite word "philosophy" :D this is great news you plan to keep the unique side of the classes though. I'm glad to hear this :)
    #MOREORBS
  • Lysette
    Lysette
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    Fuzzybrick wrote: »
    No, no, no. @ZOS_GinaBruno please ignore this post. Classes SHOULD NOT BE EQUAL. One class should always be better than another. One class should always do something another can't. If all classes are "balanced" as you say there will be no need for any of my alts. I want to roll different characters because they are DIFFERENT!

    Well, feedback is just that. It's feedback, and everyone is entitled to it. :) When we review feedback, it's coming from many different sources and players, and part of our job (the studio) is to determine what changes and adjustments to make based on many factors - including player feedback.

    That said, our general philosophy in regards to classes is not to give everyone the same version of a spell with a different name. We want each class to feel unique and have their own special identity.

    That makes me feel comfortable, thank you.
  • HeroOfNone
    HeroOfNone
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    NVNiko wrote: »
    OverFlow Damage-"Damage shields in ESO absorb unmitigated damage (don't factor in armor, spell resist, etc). If a player has 1k damage left on their shield, but is facing an incoming attack dealing 10k unmitigated damage, the shield will absorb that 1k while the remaining 9k hits the player directly without factoring in their armor, spell resist, etc. This is not something players can affect (e.g. by relogging) but is how damage shields work in the game. Best way around is to spam your damage shields so they are always refreshed. For the same reason, the damage shield glyphs on weapons are terrible choices because it will likely cause you to take more damage rather than less since the shield is so small virtually any incoming attack will go through mostly unmitigated."

    This is also broken the other way as well. If someone has a weakness to fire, elemental susceptibility, etc. You won't suffer any weakness from your lack of protection. This is what a lot of vampire sorcerers depend on, keeping their damage shield up so the eXtra damage they should be taking isn't calculated into their damage if the shield drops for a moment.

    This is also how I tank dungeons naked without being 1 shot between blocks.
    Edited by HeroOfNone on January 14, 2016 7:08PM
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