ATTN: ZOS ~~Mega Post of Issues with the Game and its Current Problems with Balance!!!

Joy_Division

NVNiko wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think it would have been better had you removed the adjectives and personal opinions from your chart that is trying to give an objective presentation of what each class has and does not have. I spent more time saying to myself "this person is overrating templars" (jabs "huge" self heal? No. Liquid Lightning "high" damage? No. BoL "huge" self heal? What does that make healing ward, gargantuan? RD, "huge" damages below <35%? No. Shards "High initial damage"? No) than anything else.

Hold on--
Liquid Lightning=Is the most powerful Dot in PVE!!
BOL= Not a huge self heal??? (lol)

I really don't understand what you're trying to say You're either ill informed or you misinterpreted the OP

I am saying that when you insert adjectives, it unnecessarily clouds an attempt to create an objective and unbiased presentation.

You claim that liquid lightning is "high" damage. No it's not. If we are in CyrodiiI and I willingly stand in your Liquid Lightning, it will take you a long time to actually kill me. This is why zero people I raid with in PvP actually use this spell, for the very reason that its damage is negligible in a PvP environment even when discounting its greatest weakness, namely people can simply move out of it.

It's only "high" when you put it into a specific context, in PvE compared only to other DoTs (and even then Unstable Flame is close) as you did now to try to make me sound ill informed. I am not ill informed. It is precisely because I am informed that I can point out the problems with inserting adjectives and making no reference to context.

As for Breath of Life, it is not a huge self heal without a confluence of specific circumstances. That's just parroting frustrations made by DPS specs such as FENGRUSH who get annoyed when he cannot simply DPS with zero tactics and kill people as fast as he likes.

If you ask any templar who heals a lot and pays attention to their combat logs, they will tell you most of the time they press Breath of Life, it puts out somewhere between a 6-8K heal in Cyrodiil depending on the templar's magicka and spellpower (some use drinks, prioritize regen, and run resto staffs). That is not "huge." That is roughly the same damage a wrecking blow will hit you for. It is less than the damage you are going to get hit for in a global cooldown by any DPS spec who knows what they are doing. So, no, it's not "huge." In PvE things are obviously different because there is no Battle Spirit, but again that just demonstrates the importance of context and why using adjectives to make a universal declaration is problematic.

Tempalrs will tell you that healing ward is a more versatile and reliable self heal and indeed that why some templars opt to use that skill when healing themselves, even in PvE scenarios such as Maelstrom, instead of their own skill that is supposedly OP as is casually tossed around these forums.

BOL is highly dependent on many factors, specifically the templar's own purifying ritual, the target's remaining health, crit chance, etc., that all have to come together in order for it to be "huge." And there is zero guarantee it will be a self heal. i'm not saying the skill isn't good. I am saying its effectiveness is exaggerated by too many people who do not take into account the circumstances necessary to get a "huge" heal and ignore than most times templars press that button, they are getting a heal that is not nearly as good.

WolfingHour

NVNiko wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno

These are the collaborative opinions of the guild "M12", not a single streamer or 1 v X'r such as Fengrush, Sypher, or King Richard. We should be focusing on the opinions to the Majority of ESO players and just one field of Gameplay. M12 is a community of 500 "Active" guild members on the AD NA server most of which have been known to top the Leaderboards in both PVE and PVP content over the duration from the game from beta until today. We have been quiet for awhile but it's time for our voice to be heard and answered from ZOS and the community and this is the reason for this post.


Class Abilities

Chart describing imbalances between classes >https://www.dropbox.com/s/bnc7qpewlgwy7pk/ESO balance.docx?dl=0
(Great chart submitted by @GreyBrow )





--Major Resolve needs to be uniform across all classes, specifically the nightblade and the templar which should be able to ingnite the Major resolve buff comparable to the way Dragon Knights and Sorcerer's can.

--Every class should have an intant-cast skill that does immediate damage on cast. Specifically the Sorcerer which has no instant cast abilities that do damage on cast comparable to flame whip, funnel health, surprise attack, or puncturing sweep. Instead Sorcs have to rely on force pulse where the other classes do not.

--Templars need a hard crowd control ability comparable to the other classes. Certain primary class abilities should be uniform across all classes.
Shields

- Every Class should have the ability to play as a DPS, Tank or Healer comparably as envisioned by Zenimax's original game model. Certain classes should have certain advantages and disadvantages when it comes to each role of the game: Tanking, Damage dealing, and healing. And at the same time be able to have similar mitigation, dps, and heals

- Magicka and Stamina users should have separate morphs in class trees this way stamina and magicka users have equal opportunities when creating build and not being penalized for being a magicka or stamina user. Each user should have equal opportunities in thier style of play.

OverFlow Damage-"Damage shields in ESO absorb unmitigated damage (don't factor in armor, spell resist, etc). If a player has 1k damage left on their shield, but is facing an incoming attack dealing 10k unmitigated damage, the shield will absorb that 1k while the remaining 9k hits the player directly without factoring in their armor, spell resist, etc. This is not something players can affect (e.g. by relogging) but is how damage shields work in the game. Best way around is to spam your damage shields so they are always refreshed. For the same reason, the damage shield glyphs on weapons are terrible choices because it will likely cause you to take more damage rather than less since the shield is so small virtually any incoming attack will go through mostly unmitigated."

Players want the ability to crit against shields and proc specific class dps passives (*Burning Light) against shields, if this is the case shields need to be buffed in someway to compensate for the extra damage from the crits and procs, maybe a 75% shield in pvp.
http://gamerelated.info/2015/08/25/elder-scrolls-online-long-standing-bugsissues-that-all-players-should-be-aware-of/


Magicka VS Stamina Imbalances

Light Armor Vs Medium Armor - Besides the differences in actual physical armor the passives each type of armor get are not even comparable. The Agility passive gives 12% more weapon damage where the Concentration passive only gets 4884 Spell Penetraion. The Concentration passive needs to get buffed by offering more Penetration or Spell Damage

Spell Damage Vs Weapon Damage - More or less Weapon damage users have about 1000 more raw damage over magicka builds. This is a huge imbalance especially when it comes to aoe's that have more range

Elemental Ring Vs Steel Tornado - Steel Tornado has a range of 12.5 meters which actually hits for 490 square meters and Elemental Ring has a range of 6 meters which hits at 113 sq meters. The imbalance in range and coupled with the imbalance in raw damage makes magicka users half as effective than stamina users in aoe situations. Besides that Stamina users also get there damaged buffed by the ruffian passive as well as the Duel Weld execute while while both morphs of elemental ring get purged!!

Flawless Dawnbreaker - 8% more raw damage for Stamina users where Magicka users have no equivalent that comes close to this. This skill needs to be changed or give something comparable to magicka users.


Champion Points
Spell Damage Mitigation VS Physical Damage Mitigation - We have 2 perks that mitigate spell damage which are Elemental Defender and Hardy. But when it comes to physical mitigation we only have the armor perks which gives us diminished returns specifically on light armor/magicka users

Class abilities: Could not agree less with this path of least resistance - just make mirror the same ability across all classes. Balancing is an on-going process if we are to have diversity. Otherwise, we are just all playing a washed version of a MMO - a facebook game, just many GB in size bigger. Same goes for sta v magicka in creating builds.

Honestly, I can't see what is wrong with either Templar's or NB's major armor buffing abilities, for instance.

Magicka v Stamina: Just comparing straight up numbers of weap dmg vis-a-vis with magicka is just too reductive, since both styles of play bring more to the table. One is evasion the other is shield and I've seen equally large numbers from both.

What is somewhat debatable here is the the area of steel tornado vs ERing, although the problem here, honestly, seems that it is elsewhere - AOE dmg caps. I suspect that if they were to have the same radius both would become equally prevalent.


Overflow damage and , on the other hand, is something that could be looked into. Why it works like that no one knows and will only add to the "STA does more dmg" sentiment. The only reason I can see it work like this is to offset the fact that, while STA users will use STA to roll to avoid (some) dmg plus block thus halting their STA regen, Magicka users do not have this handicap on their main resource.


What you raised with regards to CP i completely agree.

Autolycus

I love the effort and group involvement. That being said, there are some things in your chart that are inaccurate or pieces that have been left out. For example, for self-heals you listed "none" for NBs, while it is a known fact that NBs have multiple self-heals, although most of them benefit magicka users instead of stam (i.e. strife, path, tether, and sap, and half of them buff each other for inter-class synergy). Cripple is also much more than reduced movement speed, as it is one of the strongest single-target DoTs in the game, not just for the class.

There is also no mention of Eclipse for templars, which is a single target CC (even if it's not a lockdown, it's still very useful for Templars and thus should be included in the analysis). Daedric Curse is arguably a strong single-target DoT for Sorcerers, although I can understand if you don't want to include this because it's actually just a delayed damage, not a damage "over time." Sorcs also have Crystal Frags as a long-range spammable dps ability (and self heal).

I disagree with the suggestions for GDB, as it's not a horrible heal if you play off of inter-class synergies (i.e. major mending from igneous shield). What DKs actually need is a buff to damage potential (via whip) or increased DoT utility (instead of having it mostly mitigated through cookie-cutter CP placement). The potential for self heals and mitigation with DKs is fine as it is. Giving them a BoL heal is not a step towards balance, but a step backward.

I would also argue that chains does not need to be fixed. I honestly believe those claiming chains is garbage aren't using it properly. I have no problems with chains in PvP or PvE, except for the occasional "target is too high or low" nonsense. I do support a minimum range and stun for ambush, but if we're going to focus on that skill, Lotus Fan should be looked at too.

Also, I don't think wings needs a buff. I still believe it is one of the most powerful defensive skills in the game. I would rather see modifications to Absorb Magic (1h+s) to apply to physical projectiles, and not just spell projectiles. Purify and Wings don't need extra physical mitigation, because DKs and Templars already have multiple ways of mitigating physical damage as it is. Combining the benefits of multiple class skills to a single skill is not a step toward balance. Shadow cloak is virtually useless unless it works on the first try, and your opponent has no other counter (i.e. detect pots, aoes, gap closers & snares, etc.) If the cloak is successful, it is very effective for escaping and removing DoTs, but that's a pretty big "if."

For those NBs using blur for the extra armor and spell resist - it needs a buff. Sorcs and DKs (and maybe Temps, not coming up with anything atm) each have a defensive skill that boosts armor and spell resist by roughly 5k, but NBs get a lousy ~1k increase, which should be upped to be closer to par with other classes.

Sorcs have lightning splash as an instant-cast aoe ability, and is much stronger than many other magicka-based aoe skills, be it through class, weapons, armor, etc. I know you mentioned this in your "ground aoe" section - perhaps it does belong there, as you have it. Mostly I wanted to point to it as a worthwhile aoe. It may also be worth considering shattering prison as an instant-cast aoe, plus cc, plus heal.

NBs have sap which, as you mentioned is a noteworthy aoe dps and heal. I would simply add to this the ability to grant Major Sorcery and Brutality for 20 sec. and point this added benefit to other classes. Perhaps allowing deep breath to grant these buffs as well could work, maybe not, but it could be considered for other classes is the point.

And, to top it all off, DKs need an execute. It wouldn't hurt to give them a minor berserk somewhere, and I would suggest giving DKs a skill that acts as a hybrid between Merciless Resolve and Critical Surge: Don't give DKs the Assassin's Will proc, but instead give them the ability to heal based off of crits, or blocks, reflected attacks, etc. Not a perfect concept, but I think it's a good start.

Many of the items that are grouped here together probably should be split up. The reason for this is that every class is different, has different tools at their disposal, and can be played in a variety of ways, meaning that each class has multiple unique possibilities in terms of builds and playstyles. As such, I feel they should be analyzed individually and we should be playing onto the themes of each class while simultaneously making a conscious effort to maintain balance between classes, as opposed to giving every class something that does x, something that does y, etc.

TL;DR - Think outside the box. The cookie-cutter mentality is a narrow-minded focus that often forces us to lose sight of our class' true potential. Some skills for each class definitely need to be looked at for rebalancing. NBs have it pretty good right now, for the most part, because skills that were previously broken are now working perfectly. Other classes lack certain features entirely (like DKs and lack of mobility) that could be incorporated. The important thing to remember is that we want balanced classes, not identical ones.

Sylvyr

Nice post. GL.

WolfingHour

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

NVNiko wrote: »

Run Caltrops with SA and then tell me it's not OP:)

That is exactly how I manage resources on my NB tank, and it works great most of the time. It is best against large groups of mobs, but not very effective during single, drawn out boss fights.

The thing with Caltrops is, is that it shouldn't be proccing SA. ZOS tried to fix this in the IC update by removing 'melee attack' status from Caltrops, but for some reason it still works with SA. ZOS also shot themselves in the foot by removing the damage penalty/toggle, because this opened the skill up for use by DPS builds rather than just tanks. If they removed Caltrops' ability to proc SA, or added back in a smaller damage penalty+returned it to a toggle (or a super long duration buff) it would help with abuse by high powered damage builds (if they did either of these, however, they would also need to go through and rework what NB class abilities proc SA, as they are currently all over the place). Nonetheless, my points still stand.

Since Caltrops used to hit as a melee attack it would get the old flat amount + the % from any proc for the duration. That's what changed.

Molag_Crow

Brilliant post and those images are so true. The unbalance is real...

templesus

wharf wrote: »

if magic based classes have the same damage as stamina based classes it'd be much more imbalanced than it is now. Most of the time magic classes have much more ability to heal/stay alive and have multiple damage shields. Can you imagine a magic templar vs a stamina templar with the same damage where one gets healed through his main dps (puncturing sweeps) and can spam breath of life vs a stamplar who has rally/vigor...not that fair

Talk about survivability when break free/dodge roll consume magicka

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Wouldnt't Dark exchange and it's morphs classify as the sorcerer's self heal? also shouldn't say one of meteor's morphs give you a +8% Bonus to spell damage.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

WolfingHour wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

NVNiko wrote: »

Run Caltrops with SA and then tell me it's not OP:)

That is exactly how I manage resources on my NB tank, and it works great most of the time. It is best against large groups of mobs, but not very effective during single, drawn out boss fights.

The thing with Caltrops is, is that it shouldn't be proccing SA. ZOS tried to fix this in the IC update by removing 'melee attack' status from Caltrops, but for some reason it still works with SA. ZOS also shot themselves in the foot by removing the damage penalty/toggle, because this opened the skill up for use by DPS builds rather than just tanks. If they removed Caltrops' ability to proc SA, or added back in a smaller damage penalty+returned it to a toggle (or a super long duration buff) it would help with abuse by high powered damage builds (if they did either of these, however, they would also need to go through and rework what NB class abilities proc SA, as they are currently all over the place). Nonetheless, my points still stand.

Since Caltrops used to hit as a melee attack it would get the old flat amount + the % from any proc for the duration. That's what changed.

Ahh, so now it only has a chance to proc the (now flat value) stat replenish. From what I recall from the original patch notes, it seemed the intent was to not allow Caltrops to proc SA. Still though, how DoT's or AoEs proc SA is hit or miss. For example, Twisting Path has a chance to proc on each tick, while Refreshing Path can only proc on the first hit of the cast and not subsequent ticks.

kaithuzar

The thing people need to remember is that many abilities not only have a "chance" to proc, but also are just very finicky & may not work at all (work meaning "work as you would expect/intend"); which can make an ability almost useless because it's not guaranteed.
Example:
Toppling charge
Biting jabs
Radiant destruction
Dawnbreaker
Burning light (doesn't proc back to back)

RAGUNAnoOne

Sorcerers have 2 self heals, dark deal and surge.

M_TeK_9

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Fuzzybrick wrote: »

No, no, no. @ZOS_GinaBruno please ignore this post. Classes SHOULD NOT BE EQUAL. One class should always be better than another. One class should always do something another can't. If all classes are "balanced" as you say there will be no need for any of my alts. I want to roll different characters because they are DIFFERENT!

Well, feedback is just that. It's feedback, and everyone is entitled to it. When we review feedback, it's coming from many different sources and players, and part of our job (the studio) is to determine what changes and adjustments to make based on many factors - including player feedback.

That said, our general philosophy in regards to classes is not to give everyone the same version of a spell with a different name. We want each class to feel unique and have their own special identity.

You can do that. Take a note from DCU online. Each class has a DPS and a respected role to play. When you switch roles manually, each ability (whilst under the same ability name for that specific class) does something different specific to the role ie healer, tank, controller.

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

Things I agree with

*Shields SHOULD be crittable and dottable. If that means the amount of damage they mitigate has to be adjusted, so be it.
*Spell damage vs Weapon damage is completely out of wack.
*Magicka vs Stamina AOE's should be adjusted so they are comparable. Dungeons are all about the AOE and PvP is certainly heavily AOE based. Magicka definitely gets the short end of the stick.
*Champion point imbalances definitely need adjusting.

As far as skills go, classes which have been given unique things should not have them given to others and they sure as hell shouldn't have alternate versions in different trees.

Templars purify is a good example of what I am talking about. It's uniqueness has been dumbed down by purge from the alliance tree. Purge also grants 10% magicka regeneration when slotted. That's freaking huge!

Giving every class the ability to purge is a seriously bad idea. That one ability renders siege, dot damage and debuffs pointless. Purge is something that I think really needs to go. Nightblades dot removal on cloak should also go. Templars should be the only class capable of purging anything.

I've said it before and i'll say it again. This game could have almost all of its issues resolved via the addition of a 7th passive slot where a player picks a stance and drags it to this slot. While slotted, the stance enhances the role that the player chooses while debuffing them in areas where they shouldn't be performing.

A healer should be a good healer but horrible at damage.
A Tank should be great at mitigating damage but horrible at damage.
A DPS should be great at dishing out damage but horrible at mitigating and healing themselves.

This is something that ESO lacks. You can pretty much just stack your main stat, be tanky as hell, heal for huge amounts AND dish out huge amounts of damage. The champion tree takes this flaw and greatly compounds it. You have guys, especially streamers, who milk this for all its worth. Nobody should be 1 V Xing anyone and yet I see it all the time. It's only possible because ESO allows characters to be a tank healer and DPS all in one. The more champion points they have, the more damage they deal and mitigate.

Stances resolve this issue. They can also be used to resolve the stamiina vs magicka morph issue. A physical damage stance can convert all "CORE CLASS" morphs into stamina based and any damage they deal converted to phsyical damage.

A Sorc could have a FIRE stance converting every "CORE CLASS" morph into magicka and dealing fire damage.

Magicka classes suffer greatly in PvP due to the amount of mitigation tied up into stamina and stamina regeneration. This can easily be resolved by adding reduced cost to dodge to all magicka based stances.

Tank stances could have stamina regeneration added back while blocking, etc, etc

Obviously, every stance will be given a downside based on the role.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert

Rune_Relic

Nice post OP.

As others said and I agree, we need both class balance and unique traits.
But I don't think the unique part of any build has to come through class rather than a unique style.
The attribute system could be more than capable of defining unique builds rather than a class.
Classes after all, did originate from attribute system presets.

This was something I knocked up to mix and match current class abilities depending on attribute allocation
http://compuversal.com/eso/eso-attribute.pdf
The idea being to make hybrids and trinity (and anywhere between) equally viable builds.
Within it you will recognise Sorc DK NB and Templar builds.

This doesn't make every class identical.
It defines classes based on function/role.
Templar would be somewhere in the middle.
Stamina NB would be bottom right or bottom middle.
Magicka Sorc would be middle left to bottom left.
DK would be around the top somewhere.

This isn't perfect and could be improved on no doubt.
But Attributes have meaning and purpose again.
Hybrids become viable.
Pros are countered with Cons.
Root vs Movement Speed or Gap closers/makers (with variable snares inbetween)
Static mitigation vs dodge or bolt (with variable dynamic mitigation inbetween)
Magicka styles vs Stamina Styles.
Burst damage vs DoTs
Heals vs DPS or Mitigation
These things should be common to all classes....but to varying degrees.
IMO.

Autolycus

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Wouldnt't Dark exchange and it's morphs classify as the sorcerer's self heal? also shouldn't say one of meteor's morphs give you a +8% Bonus to spell damage.

As far as the Dark Exchange goes - yes it's a self-heal, but it's not very effective. This is really just for resource management. The heal quite insignificant, really.

SirDopey

Wait, the false Lord does not speak for us all??

But in all seriousness, good work boys. Not everyone's going to see eye to eye on this, I'm in M12 and don't 100% agree with everything, but there are definitely some tweaks needed to bring things more in line.

Its a joke that Templars don't have a hard CC/Root when their only gap closer is THE most bugged ability in the game (getting fixed, I know). In fact, the whole gap closer portion is spot on

I'm happy with NB and Sorcs not having great self heal (I say great because MAGIC NB's have no worries healing, stamina -well its vigor and rally and Sorc's have their shields for magic builds and surge for stamina) but these two classes also have escape mechanisms that Temps and DKs don't. They Absolutely do NOT need magic versions on vigor. That being said, DK dragon blood in PVP is a joke, take it back to 30%. I've always seen the trade off between the two class groups as Self Heals vs Escape and I'm more than happy if it stays that way. (Imagine a Magic NB that can rapid heal and cloak)

Sorc's have a spamable single target DPS, Mage's Fury, it just needs a little boost without making the execution OP.

Magicka VS Stamina Imbalances. Do not See eye to eye with Niko on this one. The way I see it, stamina/WD combinations should out perform magic/spell damage in raw numbers because Stamina builds are making a trade off between increased damage with lower ability effectiveness. I personally would leave the stamina/magic morph ratio as it is but buff the output for stamina damage. We have 8 slots, enough for everyone to make a stam and magic version of each class and experience the pros and cons of each. If stamina and magic were equal, then why even have 2 resource pools? Might as well just merge it all into one, there HAS to be trade offs.

If I haven't critiqued anything GreyBrow or Niko listed its because I more or less agree with it.

BUT yes, Let's not have us all running around as the same characters in different clothes and animations, but that's not to say some classes need some loving.

All in All, I think the game is in a pretty OK space. Between the 4 classes everyone should be able to find a play style that suits them. What I feel is really clouding the discussion on Balance is the Stamina V Magic mechanics and people wanting the burst damage that stamina delivers WITH the ability benefits that magic delivers for most classes, which, well, should just be ignored...

GreenSoup2HoT

You people and your Ambush nerf bandwagon's....

Can we at least wait till mini-stun's on all gap closer's are addressed?

Currently people who spam ambush can mini stun you and you cant do anything. This is not the skill's fault... once gap closer's are fixed you should be fine. The 1 second Immobilize and no minimum distance is what's unique about nightblade's gap closer.

The problem is the mini-stun's on all gap closer's.


Why don't people ask to buff DK chain's?

This is technically the Dk gap closer/chain pull but it's not working correctly and grants the enemy cc immunity. If this was fixed it would be a great skill.


How about Templar's class gap closer?

This is also broken.


How about we fix class gap closer's and mini stun's being broken on all gap closer's before accusing ambush.


So many people asking for class balance and all this garbage when there's a TON of broken skill's and bug's. You can't balance around this until it's fixed.

MikeB

I'd you think classes are fine I challenge you to play a magicka templar in PvP.

SirDopey

MikeB wrote: »

I'd you think classes are fine I challenge you to play a magicka templar in PvP.

My best performing PVP character at the moment is a magic Templar, sure Toppling charge is driving me to drink like a horse but apart from that they really are not bad....

Zinaroth

I admire the time and effort put into this and there's a lot of good observations and points being made. However some of the conclusions are way off, and display lack of knowledge in certain area. I am on my phone so I will just cover two of my primary concerns:

If you guys are competing for leaderboards in trials surely you understand how much magicka is reigning supreme on DPS meters at the moment compared to stamina, yet you're advocating buffs to magicka?

I think you're underestimating how dire a situation Templars, and especially Stamplars, are in atm when it comes to PvP. Don't see how these proposed class changes will help them much, and can't help to feel your aim here is to homogenize the classes, which would be a bad idea.

@Nifty2g I see you once again advocating Templars are fine and that DKs have been destroyed as a class. Are you completely oblivious to how poor a state Stamplars are in atm, and how Stamina DKs are the kings in 1v1? Overall you're still better off playing a DK whether you want to; DPS, 1v1, 1vX or tank. The only job a Templar excels in compared to the DK is healing, and that is obviously as magicka. Let me make a quick comparison herr so we don't confuse apples and oranges.
1v1: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar > Mag DK
1vX: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Mag DK > Stam Templar
DPS: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Tank: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Healing: Mag Templar > Mag DK
This is how the two classes compare in performance at the moment. This is the generally accepted truth withing the PvE and PvP communities at the moment.
How in all of Tamriel does this lead you to conclude that Templars are mostly fine and that DKs are ruined?
I think you need to reevalute your thought process along with the people in this thread who agreed with you.
Sorry for the direct approach but I am reading a lot of your misinformation on threads around on these forums in regards to how *** DKs are and how Templars are fine, neither of them obviously are fine at the moment compared to NBs and Sorcs, but you're still better off atm if you rolled a DK unless you're planning on going full healbot mode. That statement is irrefutably true, and everyone here knows it.

GreenSoup2HoT

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Fuzzybrick wrote: »

No, no, no. @ZOS_GinaBruno please ignore this post. Classes SHOULD NOT BE EQUAL. One class should always be better than another. One class should always do something another can't. If all classes are "balanced" as you say there will be no need for any of my alts. I want to roll different characters because they are DIFFERENT!

Well, feedback is just that. It's feedback, and everyone is entitled to it. When we review feedback, it's coming from many different sources and players, and part of our job (the studio) is to determine what changes and adjustments to make based on many factors - including player feedback.

That said, our general philosophy in regards to classes is not to give everyone the same version of a spell with a different name. We want each class to feel unique and have their own special identity.

Glad you guy's implemented the Block Regen and Roll dodge nerf. Those were not mechanic's required for any class'es unique feel and identity.....

SirDopey

Zinaroth wrote: »

I admire the time and effort put into this and there's a lot of good observations and points being made. However some of the conclusions are way off, and display lack of knowledge in certain area. I am on my phone so I will just cover two of my primary concerns:

If you guys are competing for leaderboards in trials surely you understand how much magicka is reigning supreme on DPS meters at the moment compared to stamina, yet you're advocating buffs to magicka?

I think you're underestimating how dire a situation Templars, and especially Stamplars, are in atm when it comes to PvP. Don't see how these proposed class changes will help them much, and can't help to feel your aim here is to homogenize the classes, which would be a bad idea.

@Nifty2g I see you once again advocating Templars are fine and that DKs have been destroyed as a class. Are you completely oblivious to how poor a state Stamplars are in atm, and how Stamina DKs are the kings in 1v1? Overall you're still better off playing a DK whether you want to; DPS, 1v1, 1vX or tank. The only job a Templar excels in compared to the DK is healing, and that is obviously as magicka. Let me make a quick comparison herr so we don't confuse apples and oranges.
1v1: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar > Mag DK
1vX: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Mag DK > Stam Templar
DPS: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Tank: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Healing: Mag Templar > Mag DK
This is how the two classes compare in performance at the moment. This is the generally accepted truth withing the PvE and PvP communities at the moment.
How in all of Tamriel does this lead you to conclude that Templars are mostly fine and that DKs are ruined?
I think you need to reevalute your thought process along with the people in this thread who agreed with you.
Sorry for the direct approach but I am reading a lot of your misinformation on threads around on these forums in regards to how *** DKs are and how Templars are fine, neither of them obviously are fine at the moment compared to NBs and Sorcs, but you're still better off atm if you rolled a DK unless you're planning on going full healbot mode. That statement is irrefutably true, and everyone here knows it.

I'll 1 v 1 a stamina DK any day, absolutely my LEAST feared class when I'm on my Templars (Magic & Stam). Please don't use "everyone here knows it" because not everyone's going to agree with your sentiments. Templars are fine, if you're not familiar playing stamina builds, then its one build to stay away from. I haven't logged onto my DK in over a month because both of my templars out perform it.

CaptainObvious

Please also include distance as a factor in this equation. Otherwise, you will simply extend the imbalance.

If distance damage outweighs or equals close damage, then the system will be broken unless interrupts and vorpal counters become a thing.

Zinaroth

SirDopey wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

I admire the time and effort put into this and there's a lot of good observations and points being made. However some of the conclusions are way off, and display lack of knowledge in certain area. I am on my phone so I will just cover two of my primary concerns:

If you guys are competing for leaderboards in trials surely you understand how much magicka is reigning supreme on DPS meters at the moment compared to stamina, yet you're advocating buffs to magicka?

I think you're underestimating how dire a situation Templars, and especially Stamplars, are in atm when it comes to PvP. Don't see how these proposed class changes will help them much, and can't help to feel your aim here is to homogenize the classes, which would be a bad idea.

@Nifty2g I see you once again advocating Templars are fine and that DKs have been destroyed as a class. Are you completely oblivious to how poor a state Stamplars are in atm, and how Stamina DKs are the kings in 1v1? Overall you're still better off playing a DK whether you want to; DPS, 1v1, 1vX or tank. The only job a Templar excels in compared to the DK is healing, and that is obviously as magicka. Let me make a quick comparison herr so we don't confuse apples and oranges.
1v1: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar > Mag DK
1vX: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Mag DK > Stam Templar
DPS: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Tank: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Healing: Mag Templar > Mag DK
This is how the two classes compare in performance at the moment. This is the generally accepted truth withing the PvE and PvP communities at the moment.
How in all of Tamriel does this lead you to conclude that Templars are mostly fine and that DKs are ruined?
I think you need to reevalute your thought process along with the people in this thread who agreed with you.
Sorry for the direct approach but I am reading a lot of your misinformation on threads around on these forums in regards to how *** DKs are and how Templars are fine, neither of them obviously are fine at the moment compared to NBs and Sorcs, but you're still better off atm if you rolled a DK unless you're planning on going full healbot mode. That statement is irrefutably true, and everyone here knows it.

I'll 1 v 1 a stamina DK any day, absolutely my LEAST feared class when I'm on my Templars (Magic & Stam). Please don't use "everyone here knows it" because not everyone's going to agree with your sentiments. Templars are fine, if you're not familiar playing stamina builds, then its one build to stay away from. I haven't logged onto my DK in over a month because both of my templars out perform it.

Please. I have been maining a single class since launch, and that is my Templar. I am in Hodor. Don't condescend me.

Ask around in ANY dueling guild or any high profile streamer who knows what he is talking about. Stamins DKs are THE 1v1 build at the moment. I am not going to question whether you can take down a Stamina DK, but it must not have been in a dueling session and he must not have been very good. Your LEAST feared class? So now you're also saying implicit that Mag DKs are better than Stam DKs? The rankings I put up are not my own opinion, they are not up for debate. They are the truth. Everyone who is something in this community or has deeper knowledge OR atleast talks with other people from time to time within the top of PvE and PvP will know that what I stated is the general concensus. Now if you're going to go ahead and claim that you know better than the best duelers and raiding guilds from the EU megaserver then that is your business, but that is a very bold statement.

Refuse2GrowUp

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

You people and your Ambush nerf bandwagon's....

Can we at least wait till mini-stun's on all gap closer's are addressed?

Currently people who spam ambush can mini stun you and you cant do anything. This is not the skill's fault... once gap closer's are fixed you should be fine. The 1 second Immobilize and no minimum distance is what's unique about nightblade's gap closer.

The problem is the mini-stun's on all gap closer's.


Why don't people ask to buff DK chain's?

This is technically the Dk gap closer/chain pull but it's not working correctly and grants the enemy cc immunity. If this was fixed it would be a great skill.


How about Templar's class gap closer?

This is also broken.


How about we fix class gap closer's and mini stun's being broken on all gap closer's before accusing ambush.


So many people asking for class balance and all this garbage when there's a TON of broken skill's and bug's. You can't balance around this until it's fixed.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but feel compelled to reply.

The devs are addressing the gap closer root. Universally, all gap closers reduce the targets speed by 100% for (I believe) 1 second. They have said they are considering reducing this amount of time. Please let's not let this issue muddy the waters when discussing Ambush. Even if the devs do change the snare (reduced movement speed) time of universal gap closers, it will likely have no effect on Ambush.

I have never been one to get on the nerf bandwagon. I will never ask for a nerf. I will however agree with those that are calling for a minimum distance to cast Ambush. All other gap closers have them...why not Ambush. It is a bit silly that any monkey can one-button the controller and perma stun a target. Yes, you can defend against this if you are 1v1, but if you have two NBs doing this, or a NB and any other class attacking you at the same time, you will be perma stunned with zero chance to defend yourself. Now, I do not mind the 1 second stun being part of the skill, tho I do think CC immunity needs to be fixed, and in doing so, would render the spam less controversial. However, by making this skill a minimum distance cast, it would simply function as it is intended to. Which, frankly, I don't see an issue with. Any decent player would say Ambush spammers are garbage...thus they use the skill to close gap then use other skills for the fight. If they must cloak away, then they do so, get their range, and Ambush back in. The only players that would complain if Ambush were given a minimum cast distance are those that rely on spamming the skill. And to these players, it truly is a L2P issue. Adding the min distance would not change anything for good players. It would merely force garbage spammers to learn to actually play the class.

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

CaptainObvious wrote: »

Please also include distance as a factor in this equation. Otherwise, you will simply extend the imbalance.

If distance damage outweighs or equals close damage, then the system will be broken unless interrupts and vorpal counters become a thing.

Distance is already incorporated into weapon disparity. Duel wield gets more spell damage/ weapon damage than a staff, etc, etc

Oddly enough ranged is actually extremely penalized in ESO. Not only do they get reduced output, they also lose a set piece. Gap closers also deal absurd amounts of damage and can be spammed meaning ranged doesn't even exist except in large scale Keep zergs where there is a physical or meat wall between the ranged and their target.

SirDopey

Zinaroth wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

I admire the time and effort put into this and there's a lot of good observations and points being made. However some of the conclusions are way off, and display lack of knowledge in certain area. I am on my phone so I will just cover two of my primary concerns:

If you guys are competing for leaderboards in trials surely you understand how much magicka is reigning supreme on DPS meters at the moment compared to stamina, yet you're advocating buffs to magicka?

I think you're underestimating how dire a situation Templars, and especially Stamplars, are in atm when it comes to PvP. Don't see how these proposed class changes will help them much, and can't help to feel your aim here is to homogenize the classes, which would be a bad idea.

@Nifty2g I see you once again advocating Templars are fine and that DKs have been destroyed as a class. Are you completely oblivious to how poor a state Stamplars are in atm, and how Stamina DKs are the kings in 1v1? Overall you're still better off playing a DK whether you want to; DPS, 1v1, 1vX or tank. The only job a Templar excels in compared to the DK is healing, and that is obviously as magicka. Let me make a quick comparison herr so we don't confuse apples and oranges.
1v1: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar > Mag DK
1vX: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Mag DK > Stam Templar
DPS: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Tank: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Healing: Mag Templar > Mag DK
This is how the two classes compare in performance at the moment. This is the generally accepted truth withing the PvE and PvP communities at the moment.
How in all of Tamriel does this lead you to conclude that Templars are mostly fine and that DKs are ruined?
I think you need to reevalute your thought process along with the people in this thread who agreed with you.
Sorry for the direct approach but I am reading a lot of your misinformation on threads around on these forums in regards to how *** DKs are and how Templars are fine, neither of them obviously are fine at the moment compared to NBs and Sorcs, but you're still better off atm if you rolled a DK unless you're planning on going full healbot mode. That statement is irrefutably true, and everyone here knows it.

I'll 1 v 1 a stamina DK any day, absolutely my LEAST feared class when I'm on my Templars (Magic & Stam). Please don't use "everyone here knows it" because not everyone's going to agree with your sentiments. Templars are fine, if you're not familiar playing stamina builds, then its one build to stay away from. I haven't logged onto my DK in over a month because both of my templars out perform it.

Please. I have been maining a single class since launch, and that is my Templar. I am in Hodor. Don't condescend me.

Ask around in ANY dueling guild or any high profile streamer who knows what he is talking about. Stamins DKs are THE 1v1 build at the moment. I am not going to question whether you can take down a Stamina DK, but it must not have been in a dueling session and he must not have been very good. Your LEAST feared class? So now you're also saying implicit that Mag DKs are better than Stam DKs? The rankings I put up are not my own opinion, they are not up for debate. They are the truth. Everyone who is something in this community or has deeper knowledge OR atleast talks with other people from time to time within the top of PvE and PvP will know that what I stated is the general concensus. Now if you're going to go ahead and claim that you know better than the best duelers and raiding guilds from the EU megaserver then that is your business, but that is a very bold statement.

LEAST FEARED CLASS. I see a DK I charge into it. Simple. Period. Can not explain it any better. If you would like me to show you how to contend with DK's feel free to jump onto the NA server and come find me, more than willing to show you

MaxwellC

@Zinaroth Stam DKs are the #1 1v1 when it comes to utilizing block casting reverb/pierce or ransack/into bash.
"everyone" doesn't agree with your statement. Stam DKs aside from the reverb move set mainly rely on wrecking blow for DPS.
I've only played DK and as a stam DK NBs are the most annoying to fight as all they do is cloak/teleport out of AoE and range you down. Sorry mate I can't keep my wings up too long especially when the damage mitigation reflect is 100% useless thanks to cloak.

Makkir

While I can appreciate the time you put into creating this, there is a bit on there that I disagree with and I dont recall seeing many forums posts regarding.

Just a quick for instance, your notes on Crystal Frags. We already eat a 50% dmg reduction in Cyrodiil so in order to maintain high dmg crystal frags a player is sacrificing other stats. I have a fun build I run sometimes in Cyrodiil but the results is "meh" dmg crystal frags.

sirrmattus

NVNiko wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno

These are the collaborative opinions of the guild "M12", not a single streamer or 1 v X'r such as Fengrush, Sypher, or King Richard. We should be focusing on the opinions to the Majority of ESO players and just one field of Gameplay. M12 is a community of 500 "Active" guild members on the AD NA server most of which have been known to top the Leaderboards in both PVE and PVP content over the duration from the game from beta until today. We have been quiet for awhile but it's time for our voice to be heard and answered from ZOS and the community and this is the reason for this post.

OverFlow Damage-"Damage shields in ESO absorb unmitigated damage (don't factor in armor, spell resist, etc). If a player has 1k damage left on their shield, but is facing an incoming attack dealing 10k unmitigated damage, the shield will absorb that 1k while the remaining 9k hits the player directly without factoring in their armor, spell resist, etc. This is not something players can affect (e.g. by relogging) but is how damage shields work in the game. Best way around is to spam your damage shields so they are always refreshed. For the same reason, the damage shield glyphs on weapons are terrible choices because it will likely cause you to take more damage rather than less since the shield is so small virtually any incoming attack will go through mostly unmitigated."

This is very well written, and very well thought out. It is also very lame and bias. To me, you sound like an angry pvp'r that wants Sorc buffed. Not only that, you sound like an inexperienced gamer who's first MMO is ESO.

ZOS has obviously done a great job so far with ESO. It could be better, everything could be better. The problem I have with your points are they contradict themselves, you want balance by making all classes have a similar skill? How is that balance? I think you and your guild M12 should consider the fact that these are professionals, and for the most part, they got it right.

Also, I do agree with the Overflow Damage portion.