Ebonheart Pact needs some Love

Nifty2g

Jules wrote: »

It's almost funny, I remember reading posts much like the one I'm about to write coming from NA DC last Spring. It appears the tides have turned again, and it's time we started talking about it.

As many have read, NA EP has now lost Guild of Shadows (GOS), as its leaders have decided to take a step back and no longer PVP competitively. Their departure is very sad and caps a series of losses for EP. The Pact has seen the loss of many key leaders and guilds in the last 6 months. And there has been very little organization established in their absence. As a result of this, the faction has been steadily declining in effectiveness over this time. There are approximately 2 hardcore PVP guilds left on EP, both of which do not run full raids. This is not meant to offend any remaining EP guilds. Yet, there is still general consensus; both in terms of activity and ability of a hardcore PVP guild.

In addition to the loss of guilds, EP has seen the loss of many solo and small group players as well. Many have rerolled to DC or AD, while others have quit the game entirely; weakening that community on EP and attracting more skilled players away from it. I couldn't even list a small scale squad on EP that would be equivalent to an Aenlir/Lowpolicy, Fengrush/Essa type play. If they're here, then I apologize, but I just never see it.

All I ever see is giant groups of people who need more experience. If other factions are honest with themselves, they will recognize that though EP may have hoards of people, they are most often what 1vX clips are made of, as they are generally inexperienced players. It is primarily this imbalance that makes EP so weak right now.

I guess the point in all of this is just to state that as a faction, we recognize that we are weaker than we have been in the past. If you or your guild is looking for truly competitive PVP, if you are looking to go against the strongest players rather than farm the weakest, I encourage you to try your hand against the strength of DC and AD right now.

For one I believe I've heard Haxus don't recruit. EP is still the largest faction just inexperienced players, if you're making this thread try recruiting players and teaching them PvP. This goes for majority of PvP guilds. Recruit in Zone and help people out, pug groups suck sure but at least they are willing to teach their little knowledge to the faction

I haven't read any replies but I find this thread too hypocritical

frozywozy

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

I've played since beta, 'ball groups' have been around since then. There were fewer because people were mostly pugs and running around with bows, but it's disingenuous to act like groups are a recent thing.

Regarding tornado, everyone agrees it has problems. I spent a few weeks working on a build that laughs it off and still kills them when I'm solo or in a group, so to the answer of what players still have to learn - experiment. We've recruited quite a few new players recently and get asked 'why am I dying, etc etc'. We review builds, talk to them about positioning, reaction, resource management, all the good stuff. So, what should new players learn? Don't be salty complaining about groups the entire time and make do with the laggy, broken mess that is cyrodiil until something better is available and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

While both playstyles shouldn't be targeted heavily, hard to dispute that even Rich from ZOS asked players to spread out in an effort to reduce server lag.

Which means, while the ball-groups format is one aspect of play that nobody can say is wrong to enjoy, its current effects serverwise are significant versus when the game started.

I mean, they also made an effort to remove the deer, sooo, I hope that speaks to my opinion of their expertise. I remember interpretting that post from him as a 'spread out and don't put obscene numbers all at one keep, hit different targets', not 'take 20 people and spread them out in a single keep so they can die like pugs'. There is a strong narrative regarding 'ball groups', and even though I say it multiple times, after IC released we'd fight against GoS, SWP, plus pugs all at once and not have any lag on trueflame. The lag is derived from total players in a vicinity, not whether they're 10 meters within a barrier range. I've yet to hear a single person that drops the term 'ball group' when complaining about lag explain why those trueflame fights were fine. It's misinformation, plain and simple, and a group is an easier scapegoat because they instantly inject players into a fight vs the 24+ randoms trickling in that will impede the ping the same amount. So yes, my anger is and has been directed at zos, but that doesn't mean it's helpful to continue a false narrative and not correct the points where it's inaccurate. I feel like even if I asked guildies to dig up recordings of those fights, people would still continue believing what they want anyway.

Anyway, my point to ezareth is that there are indeed counters to things people have convinced themselves are unbeatable, and while easier, complaining about groups the entire time just furthers the toxic dialogue and makes it hard for new players to even want to give pvp a chance. Everyone is fed up with pvp, but after 2 years, you make due with what you have and try to have as much fun as possible. But now I'm way off topic for the thread.

Here are some of the most important factors that increase latency :

1) Too many players at the same time on the screen (30-40+) - May be linked to the anti-bot system
2) All factions being max pop (cap is too large and need to be reduced to what 3bars actually is)
3) More than one battle happening at once on the map
4) Too many players landing aoes simultaneously on large amount of players (no matter where they are on the map)

When you play on Trueflame, chances that there were more than one large fight happening on the map compared to Azura Star are minimal and I would bet that populations for all 3 factions were not maxed. Here is your explanation plane and simple.

When all populations are max pop and your 24men ballgroup hits a location with already considerable amount of players present, the ping for most people is already at 200-300ms. As soon as you start pushing in and land massive AOEs on players, it is the cherry on top of the cake. Ping skyrocket up to 800-1200ms for everybody until you've killed everybody (reducing the amount of players on the screens and aoe calculations in the meantime). If another fight is happening on the map at the same time, it gets even worst.

What did we learn today? Don't run 24men groups. Everybody should run maximum 16players to help performances and also encourage guilds cooperation in the same campaign to constantly apply pressure on both enemy factions rather than all hitting the same one.

Zheg

Nifty2g wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

It's almost funny, I remember reading posts much like the one I'm about to write coming from NA DC last Spring. It appears the tides have turned again, and it's time we started talking about it.

As many have read, NA EP has now lost Guild of Shadows (GOS), as its leaders have decided to take a step back and no longer PVP competitively. Their departure is very sad and caps a series of losses for EP. The Pact has seen the loss of many key leaders and guilds in the last 6 months. And there has been very little organization established in their absence. As a result of this, the faction has been steadily declining in effectiveness over this time. There are approximately 2 hardcore PVP guilds left on EP, both of which do not run full raids. This is not meant to offend any remaining EP guilds. Yet, there is still general consensus; both in terms of activity and ability of a hardcore PVP guild.

In addition to the loss of guilds, EP has seen the loss of many solo and small group players as well. Many have rerolled to DC or AD, while others have quit the game entirely; weakening that community on EP and attracting more skilled players away from it. I couldn't even list a small scale squad on EP that would be equivalent to an Aenlir/Lowpolicy, Fengrush/Essa type play. If they're here, then I apologize, but I just never see it.

All I ever see is giant groups of people who need more experience. If other factions are honest with themselves, they will recognize that though EP may have hoards of people, they are most often what 1vX clips are made of, as they are generally inexperienced players. It is primarily this imbalance that makes EP so weak right now.

I guess the point in all of this is just to state that as a faction, we recognize that we are weaker than we have been in the past. If you or your guild is looking for truly competitive PVP, if you are looking to go against the strongest players rather than farm the weakest, I encourage you to try your hand against the strength of DC and AD right now.

For one I believe I've heard Haxus don't recruit. EP is still the largest faction just inexperienced players, if you're making this thread try recruiting players and teaching them PvP. This goes for majority of PvP guilds. Recruit in Zone and help people out, pug groups suck sure but at least they are willing to teach their little knowledge to the faction

I haven't read any replies but I find this thread too hypocritical

To their credit, they do have new trials running with them from the fights I had over the past week.

To recruitment in general, easier said than done. In September when school started up we struggled a bit with numbers and spent significant effort recruiting in and outside of cyrodiil, and we got crickets. The number of people that want to exclusively pvp is VERY low, and taking in people that want to join once a week doesn't really work when you're trying to build a core.

Nifty2g

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

It's almost funny, I remember reading posts much like the one I'm about to write coming from NA DC last Spring. It appears the tides have turned again, and it's time we started talking about it.

As many have read, NA EP has now lost Guild of Shadows (GOS), as its leaders have decided to take a step back and no longer PVP competitively. Their departure is very sad and caps a series of losses for EP. The Pact has seen the loss of many key leaders and guilds in the last 6 months. And there has been very little organization established in their absence. As a result of this, the faction has been steadily declining in effectiveness over this time. There are approximately 2 hardcore PVP guilds left on EP, both of which do not run full raids. This is not meant to offend any remaining EP guilds. Yet, there is still general consensus; both in terms of activity and ability of a hardcore PVP guild.

In addition to the loss of guilds, EP has seen the loss of many solo and small group players as well. Many have rerolled to DC or AD, while others have quit the game entirely; weakening that community on EP and attracting more skilled players away from it. I couldn't even list a small scale squad on EP that would be equivalent to an Aenlir/Lowpolicy, Fengrush/Essa type play. If they're here, then I apologize, but I just never see it.

All I ever see is giant groups of people who need more experience. If other factions are honest with themselves, they will recognize that though EP may have hoards of people, they are most often what 1vX clips are made of, as they are generally inexperienced players. It is primarily this imbalance that makes EP so weak right now.

I guess the point in all of this is just to state that as a faction, we recognize that we are weaker than we have been in the past. If you or your guild is looking for truly competitive PVP, if you are looking to go against the strongest players rather than farm the weakest, I encourage you to try your hand against the strength of DC and AD right now.

For one I believe I've heard Haxus don't recruit. EP is still the largest faction just inexperienced players, if you're making this thread try recruiting players and teaching them PvP. This goes for majority of PvP guilds. Recruit in Zone and help people out, pug groups suck sure but at least they are willing to teach their little knowledge to the faction

I haven't read any replies but I find this thread too hypocritical

To their credit, they do have new trials running with them from the fights I had over the past week.

To recruitment in general, easier said than done. In September when school started up we struggled a bit with numbers and spent significant effort recruiting in and outside of cyrodiil, and we got crickets. The number of people that want to exclusively pvp is VERY low, and taking in people that want to join once a week doesn't really work when you're trying to build a core.

I mean it wouldn't hurt to possibly start up a pug group here and there and give some basic knowledge to people and help gear them up etc. It's a lot of work but EP is still an incredibly large faction
Their zone seems to listen a lot more than the DC zone too

Turtl3Lov3

Nifty2g wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

It's almost funny, I remember reading posts much like the one I'm about to write coming from NA DC last Spring. It appears the tides have turned again, and it's time we started talking about it.

As many have read, NA EP has now lost Guild of Shadows (GOS), as its leaders have decided to take a step back and no longer PVP competitively. Their departure is very sad and caps a series of losses for EP. The Pact has seen the loss of many key leaders and guilds in the last 6 months. And there has been very little organization established in their absence. As a result of this, the faction has been steadily declining in effectiveness over this time. There are approximately 2 hardcore PVP guilds left on EP, both of which do not run full raids. This is not meant to offend any remaining EP guilds. Yet, there is still general consensus; both in terms of activity and ability of a hardcore PVP guild.

In addition to the loss of guilds, EP has seen the loss of many solo and small group players as well. Many have rerolled to DC or AD, while others have quit the game entirely; weakening that community on EP and attracting more skilled players away from it. I couldn't even list a small scale squad on EP that would be equivalent to an Aenlir/Lowpolicy, Fengrush/Essa type play. If they're here, then I apologize, but I just never see it.

All I ever see is giant groups of people who need more experience. If other factions are honest with themselves, they will recognize that though EP may have hoards of people, they are most often what 1vX clips are made of, as they are generally inexperienced players. It is primarily this imbalance that makes EP so weak right now.

I guess the point in all of this is just to state that as a faction, we recognize that we are weaker than we have been in the past. If you or your guild is looking for truly competitive PVP, if you are looking to go against the strongest players rather than farm the weakest, I encourage you to try your hand against the strength of DC and AD right now.

For one I believe I've heard Haxus don't recruit. EP is still the largest faction just inexperienced players, if you're making this thread try recruiting players and teaching them PvP. This goes for majority of PvP guilds. Recruit in Zone and help people out, pug groups suck sure but at least they are willing to teach their little knowledge to the faction

I haven't read any replies but I find this thread too hypocritical

Minno

Takllin wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

LazyLewis wrote: »

I'm making a new faction

Would you like to join the fourth unofficial faction, the Glorious Republic of Magicka Dragonknights ?

My Magicka DK 2.0 is almost v16....LF invite pls.

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Personally speaking, I like the unorganized/small scale play style better because it feels a lot more realistic and organic than fighting in a large ball group does.

As for the OP, if solo players want to reroll more power to ya, but I'd hesitate to reroll. Every time a reroll has happened, the balance of power has been thrown far more in favor of the faction that people swapped to than was intended. Individual rerolls might not feel like you have much of an impact, but when you add it all up it can become a significant change. I'd rather see EP grow within itself.

I agree. I just tried to start a new toon and dreaded it entirely. To help I'll stay off the main competitive server until DC requires more bodies.

Before I rerolled to DC, I'd always played AD since beta because my stubborn ass of a brother refused to roll anyone but AD, and we almost always played together. He stopped playing earlier this year, so I took the opportunity to reroll on DC in part because they had such a low population, but also because it was the faction I'd always wanted to play. I met up with some VE members while they were doing their reroll and was able to join them, and it's been a blast.

Though I notice a lot of people who used to play AD or EP did the same as I have. They didn't reroll with a guild, but decided to reroll over by themselves, and it starts to take away from the guilds that they were apart of before. You see some guilds dissolve or merge in with others where these people had been previously. You also have to factor in the people who want to play on the superior faction that will swap as well once they notice the balance of power switching as well.

You lucked out!
It comes down to either ZOS supporting faction reroll or easier time lvling a toon.

People will join a faction that shows superior advertising. Think about this, as much as DC is low pop:
- we have a very focal streamer that's DC only ( @Fengrush ),
- an active in zone hype man ( @Publius_Scipio ),
- a high attention guild reroll story ( VE ),
- an active badboy guild (Chuck Norris),
- creation of "bicep" meme
- return of old players that helped spearhead AZ competetive play (egypt and Jabberwacky) and
- a multitude of active solo players trying to maintain that image of DC.

On flipside for EP you have the following bad PR:

- lost badboy guild/players (Tom hanks Crystalize, etc.)
- only know one EP streamer but not as star status as fen.
- infamously known as a zerg faction with no skill. (Even if that's not the case)
- seems like zone chat not as consistent with orders/hype (based on recent comments.)
- current guilds feeling stressed and losing drive (GoS)
- new guilds not showing active forum/stream PR.

As a faction EP can work on those points and buff up their image. By next update, they should be a faction to watch out for.

frozywozy

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

It's almost funny, I remember reading posts much like the one I'm about to write coming from NA DC last Spring. It appears the tides have turned again, and it's time we started talking about it.

As many have read, NA EP has now lost Guild of Shadows (GOS), as its leaders have decided to take a step back and no longer PVP competitively. Their departure is very sad and caps a series of losses for EP. The Pact has seen the loss of many key leaders and guilds in the last 6 months. And there has been very little organization established in their absence. As a result of this, the faction has been steadily declining in effectiveness over this time. There are approximately 2 hardcore PVP guilds left on EP, both of which do not run full raids. This is not meant to offend any remaining EP guilds. Yet, there is still general consensus; both in terms of activity and ability of a hardcore PVP guild.

In addition to the loss of guilds, EP has seen the loss of many solo and small group players as well. Many have rerolled to DC or AD, while others have quit the game entirely; weakening that community on EP and attracting more skilled players away from it. I couldn't even list a small scale squad on EP that would be equivalent to an Aenlir/Lowpolicy, Fengrush/Essa type play. If they're here, then I apologize, but I just never see it.

All I ever see is giant groups of people who need more experience. If other factions are honest with themselves, they will recognize that though EP may have hoards of people, they are most often what 1vX clips are made of, as they are generally inexperienced players. It is primarily this imbalance that makes EP so weak right now.

I guess the point in all of this is just to state that as a faction, we recognize that we are weaker than we have been in the past. If you or your guild is looking for truly competitive PVP, if you are looking to go against the strongest players rather than farm the weakest, I encourage you to try your hand against the strength of DC and AD right now.

For one I believe I've heard Haxus don't recruit. EP is still the largest faction just inexperienced players, if you're making this thread try recruiting players and teaching them PvP. This goes for majority of PvP guilds. Recruit in Zone and help people out, pug groups suck sure but at least they are willing to teach their little knowledge to the faction

I haven't read any replies but I find this thread too hypocritical

To their credit, they do have new trials running with them from the fights I had over the past week.

To recruitment in general, easier said than done. In September when school started up we struggled a bit with numbers and spent significant effort recruiting in and outside of cyrodiil, and we got crickets. The number of people that want to exclusively pvp is VERY low, and taking in people that want to join once a week doesn't really work when you're trying to build a core.

I mean it wouldn't hurt to possibly start up a pug group here and there and give some basic knowledge to people and help gear them up etc. It's a lot of work but EP is still an incredibly large faction
Their zone seems to listen a lot more than the DC zone too

Me and Hektik already proposed to mainly all EP group/guild leaders to run with our guild (Haxus or Vokundein) a couple hours to see how we roll but at this point, if they won't do the move, we cannot babysit them and hold their hand. They have to show some interests and dedication themselves. Tomorrow I'll have one lead of Sotp participating in my group and I'm looking forward into it. Hopefuly more will follow.

CN_Daniel

Frozen:

Do not freaking play like we left because Haxus showed up. We left because we felt bad for the competition. Our whole team disbanded at roughly midnight or 1am EST.

And yes, if we wanted to gate camp you guys we could. We choose not to because we lived that personally. If we hold emp, we will never hold Alessia to BRK, and will typically make attempts to help red hold BRK or yellow hold Alessia. If the pugs don't want to fight the emp group they shouldn't have to. They should have somewhere else to go to have fun.

Edit: I even refuse to take scrolls as Emp. If other groups want to they can.

Pchela

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

It's almost funny, I remember reading posts much like the one I'm about to write coming from NA DC last Spring. It appears the tides have turned again, and it's time we started talking about it.

As many have read, NA EP has now lost Guild of Shadows (GOS), as its leaders have decided to take a step back and no longer PVP competitively. Their departure is very sad and caps a series of losses for EP. The Pact has seen the loss of many key leaders and guilds in the last 6 months. And there has been very little organization established in their absence. As a result of this, the faction has been steadily declining in effectiveness over this time. There are approximately 2 hardcore PVP guilds left on EP, both of which do not run full raids. This is not meant to offend any remaining EP guilds. Yet, there is still general consensus; both in terms of activity and ability of a hardcore PVP guild.

In addition to the loss of guilds, EP has seen the loss of many solo and small group players as well. Many have rerolled to DC or AD, while others have quit the game entirely; weakening that community on EP and attracting more skilled players away from it. I couldn't even list a small scale squad on EP that would be equivalent to an Aenlir/Lowpolicy, Fengrush/Essa type play. If they're here, then I apologize, but I just never see it.

All I ever see is giant groups of people who need more experience. If other factions are honest with themselves, they will recognize that though EP may have hoards of people, they are most often what 1vX clips are made of, as they are generally inexperienced players. It is primarily this imbalance that makes EP so weak right now.

I guess the point in all of this is just to state that as a faction, we recognize that we are weaker than we have been in the past. If you or your guild is looking for truly competitive PVP, if you are looking to go against the strongest players rather than farm the weakest, I encourage you to try your hand against the strength of DC and AD right now.

For one I believe I've heard Haxus don't recruit. EP is still the largest faction just inexperienced players, if you're making this thread try recruiting players and teaching them PvP. This goes for majority of PvP guilds. Recruit in Zone and help people out, pug groups suck sure but at least they are willing to teach their little knowledge to the faction

I haven't read any replies but I find this thread too hypocritical

To their credit, they do have new trials running with them from the fights I had over the past week.

To recruitment in general, easier said than done. In September when school started up we struggled a bit with numbers and spent significant effort recruiting in and outside of cyrodiil, and we got crickets. The number of people that want to exclusively pvp is VERY low, and taking in people that want to join once a week doesn't really work when you're trying to build a core.

I mean it wouldn't hurt to possibly start up a pug group here and there and give some basic knowledge to people and help gear them up etc. It's a lot of work but EP is still an incredibly large faction
Their zone seems to listen a lot more than the DC zone too

This is what I am concentrating my personal focus on outside of Haxus raids. I am not the best raid leader, but I have a lot I want to teach people in regards to siege, movement and simple basics that the stupid "LOL WELCOME TO PEE VEE PEE" tutorial doesn't cover.

Zheg

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

It's almost funny, I remember reading posts much like the one I'm about to write coming from NA DC last Spring. It appears the tides have turned again, and it's time we started talking about it.

As many have read, NA EP has now lost Guild of Shadows (GOS), as its leaders have decided to take a step back and no longer PVP competitively. Their departure is very sad and caps a series of losses for EP. The Pact has seen the loss of many key leaders and guilds in the last 6 months. And there has been very little organization established in their absence. As a result of this, the faction has been steadily declining in effectiveness over this time. There are approximately 2 hardcore PVP guilds left on EP, both of which do not run full raids. This is not meant to offend any remaining EP guilds. Yet, there is still general consensus; both in terms of activity and ability of a hardcore PVP guild.

In addition to the loss of guilds, EP has seen the loss of many solo and small group players as well. Many have rerolled to DC or AD, while others have quit the game entirely; weakening that community on EP and attracting more skilled players away from it. I couldn't even list a small scale squad on EP that would be equivalent to an Aenlir/Lowpolicy, Fengrush/Essa type play. If they're here, then I apologize, but I just never see it.

All I ever see is giant groups of people who need more experience. If other factions are honest with themselves, they will recognize that though EP may have hoards of people, they are most often what 1vX clips are made of, as they are generally inexperienced players. It is primarily this imbalance that makes EP so weak right now.

I guess the point in all of this is just to state that as a faction, we recognize that we are weaker than we have been in the past. If you or your guild is looking for truly competitive PVP, if you are looking to go against the strongest players rather than farm the weakest, I encourage you to try your hand against the strength of DC and AD right now.

For one I believe I've heard Haxus don't recruit. EP is still the largest faction just inexperienced players, if you're making this thread try recruiting players and teaching them PvP. This goes for majority of PvP guilds. Recruit in Zone and help people out, pug groups suck sure but at least they are willing to teach their little knowledge to the faction

I haven't read any replies but I find this thread too hypocritical

To their credit, they do have new trials running with them from the fights I had over the past week.

To recruitment in general, easier said than done. In September when school started up we struggled a bit with numbers and spent significant effort recruiting in and outside of cyrodiil, and we got crickets. The number of people that want to exclusively pvp is VERY low, and taking in people that want to join once a week doesn't really work when you're trying to build a core.

I mean it wouldn't hurt to possibly start up a pug group here and there and give some basic knowledge to people and help gear them up etc. It's a lot of work but EP is still an incredibly large faction
Their zone seems to listen a lot more than the DC zone too

Right, i agree thats exactly what it sounds EP needs, I was speaking specifically to permanent guild recruitment, and it not being super easy.

Ezareth

Zheg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

I've played since beta, 'ball groups' have been around since then. There were fewer because people were mostly pugs and running around with bows, but it's disingenuous to act like groups are a recent thing.

Regarding tornado, everyone agrees it has problems. I spent a few weeks working on a build that laughs it off and still kills them when I'm solo or in a group, so to the answer of what players still have to learn - experiment. We've recruited quite a few new players recently and get asked 'why am I dying, etc etc'. We review builds, talk to them about positioning, reaction, resource management, all the good stuff. So, what should new players learn? Don't be salty complaining about groups the entire time and make do with the laggy, broken mess that is cyrodiil until something better is available and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

No "Ball groups" really didn't exist in the way they do today, not even close. I remember killing both Nicole and Fixate (The real one) in the day a couple of times back in the day when they were running around in their groups because I could actually distinguish them from other targets and every piece of damage I did to them didn't end up with them being instantly healed to full by the 6 templar spamming BoL for all their worth. If you single target anyone in a REAL ball group today you're just wasting magicka/ult. The only way someone dies is if some massive amount of (AoE)damage hits them long enough for their heals to actually hit multiple people at once. Even running with Alacrity you'd I recall moments when a player would be instagibbed by someone and the whole ball would either have to go back for them or it would slowly be whittled away. There was nothing close to the skill shown by Alacrity running around at the time (And I never really enjoyed the playstyle enough to do it more than 2 or 3 times with them).

Most of the "Ball groups" running around were a joke. Laughable stealth bomb groups with impulse spam and no real coordination of ults.

Beyond that 90% of the PvP out there was small scale and an unorganized mess (Which is how those groups farmed absurd amounts of AP in such a short time). People might die to a ball group but you'd still get a ton of action you had a chance against and still come out having fun.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

hit THAT nail on the head.

I think you're the only one of the old old old OLD school that is probably still active. I don't see MT, Rowsdow, JQuar or Taran anymore.

The game's substantially deteriorated, and most ppl these days don't have a great deal of patience to see things through and hope they improve.

If this 'rebalancing' patch doesn't really turn things around all the fancy eye popping dungeons in the world won't save things. ZoS can't cut off the PVP nose to spite the PVE face.

Agree on the deterioration but MT quit due to real life (kid), JQar quit his NB and plays a DK. Havent seen Taran since he rage quit the guild because I wouldn't trade Emperor but last I heard he was leading an AD zerg guild and was posting in the forums somewhat recently. Rows still plays from time to time. I ran into him mopping up a K-hole ball the other night. My spirit is lifted every time I see the name.

I spend more time playing other games other than ESO these days. The lag to me was bearable but I was always able to switch around campaigns to get some decent action but now the bugs coupled with the lag have me closer to quitting for good than anything else. I'm pretty patient and understanding but I'm not seeing much that is giving me hope these days.

Nifty2g

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

It's almost funny, I remember reading posts much like the one I'm about to write coming from NA DC last Spring. It appears the tides have turned again, and it's time we started talking about it.

As many have read, NA EP has now lost Guild of Shadows (GOS), as its leaders have decided to take a step back and no longer PVP competitively. Their departure is very sad and caps a series of losses for EP. The Pact has seen the loss of many key leaders and guilds in the last 6 months. And there has been very little organization established in their absence. As a result of this, the faction has been steadily declining in effectiveness over this time. There are approximately 2 hardcore PVP guilds left on EP, both of which do not run full raids. This is not meant to offend any remaining EP guilds. Yet, there is still general consensus; both in terms of activity and ability of a hardcore PVP guild.

In addition to the loss of guilds, EP has seen the loss of many solo and small group players as well. Many have rerolled to DC or AD, while others have quit the game entirely; weakening that community on EP and attracting more skilled players away from it. I couldn't even list a small scale squad on EP that would be equivalent to an Aenlir/Lowpolicy, Fengrush/Essa type play. If they're here, then I apologize, but I just never see it.

All I ever see is giant groups of people who need more experience. If other factions are honest with themselves, they will recognize that though EP may have hoards of people, they are most often what 1vX clips are made of, as they are generally inexperienced players. It is primarily this imbalance that makes EP so weak right now.

I guess the point in all of this is just to state that as a faction, we recognize that we are weaker than we have been in the past. If you or your guild is looking for truly competitive PVP, if you are looking to go against the strongest players rather than farm the weakest, I encourage you to try your hand against the strength of DC and AD right now.

For one I believe I've heard Haxus don't recruit. EP is still the largest faction just inexperienced players, if you're making this thread try recruiting players and teaching them PvP. This goes for majority of PvP guilds. Recruit in Zone and help people out, pug groups suck sure but at least they are willing to teach their little knowledge to the faction

I haven't read any replies but I find this thread too hypocritical

To their credit, they do have new trials running with them from the fights I had over the past week.

To recruitment in general, easier said than done. In September when school started up we struggled a bit with numbers and spent significant effort recruiting in and outside of cyrodiil, and we got crickets. The number of people that want to exclusively pvp is VERY low, and taking in people that want to join once a week doesn't really work when you're trying to build a core.

I mean it wouldn't hurt to possibly start up a pug group here and there and give some basic knowledge to people and help gear them up etc. It's a lot of work but EP is still an incredibly large faction
Their zone seems to listen a lot more than the DC zone too

Right, i agree thats exactly what it sounds EP needs, I was speaking specifically to permanent guild recruitment, and it not being super easy.

I know and I do agree it's difficult to recruit and get to know players, that's a long process in itself.
There are a lot of semi decent players that might want to get to know how to player and stuff like that.

I personally think that there are too many streamers taking the game in a different direction than it was intended and it's gaining a lot of small group / solo play but thats a different discussion and it's making people hate "zerging" even though it's heavily promoted in ESO then again the servers can't handle it and that also takes players away from large group play.

Difficult position the game itself is in I think. I have high hopes for Thieves Guild, I really do. But I think a lot of action will pick up from it, especially if the lag is fixed, a lot of large group play will be very active again

PosternHouse

frozywozy wrote:

I agree with the first part of what u've said but regarding the last part, EP doesn't get gate camped because DC guilds don't care as much for objectives as they do for AP farming. Otherwise, EP would have been gate camped continuously since the past 3months or so.

Best proof was yesterday evening. One of the best EP guild was on another campaign because of the poor performances of Azura Star lately while another great EP guild was not running a group. We lost everything at primetime with near of no resistance. When the first EP guild who was rolling on another campaign came back to Azura Star late during the night, all the DC guilds who were farming pugs around the EP home tri-keeps instantly logged off. lol

Gonna call BS for a second time this thread. Sure, EP was super puggy but there was definitely resistance. Of course without guilds running the EP pugs got rolled. But we can't account for decisions made by other people. There are no gentleman's agreements in Cyrodiil. Sorry pal.

Also, when the EP guilds came back all of DC's guilds had logged for the night. Blue guilds happily fight the best either faction has to offer and have done so for months with good success. Your gates were not camped because DC are farmers. It's because DC doesn't want a buff server. The leads in zone agreed (a damned rare thing) that killing PvP on the most populated campaign isn't a good thing. This is a concession neither yellow or red made during their months of dominance.

frozywozy wrote:

There was absolutely no resistance whatsoever and you guys all knew it. DC just pvedoored their way, coincidentally, when major EP guilds were not running.

At this point I'm convinced you're never right about anything, ever. DC was fighting against a massive TKO zerg and all of the EP pugs at different points on the map. Sure, without organized guild presence EP got beat up. But stop thinking that we should take yours or anyone's decisions into mind before we play. If you don't like it, do something about instead of trying to shame people into playing the way you play or thinking the way you think.

Zheg

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

I've played since beta, 'ball groups' have been around since then. There were fewer because people were mostly pugs and running around with bows, but it's disingenuous to act like groups are a recent thing.

Regarding tornado, everyone agrees it has problems. I spent a few weeks working on a build that laughs it off and still kills them when I'm solo or in a group, so to the answer of what players still have to learn - experiment. We've recruited quite a few new players recently and get asked 'why am I dying, etc etc'. We review builds, talk to them about positioning, reaction, resource management, all the good stuff. So, what should new players learn? Don't be salty complaining about groups the entire time and make do with the laggy, broken mess that is cyrodiil until something better is available and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

While both playstyles shouldn't be targeted heavily, hard to dispute that even Rich from ZOS asked players to spread out in an effort to reduce server lag.

Which means, while the ball-groups format is one aspect of play that nobody can say is wrong to enjoy, its current effects serverwise are significant versus when the game started.

I mean, they also made an effort to remove the deer, sooo, I hope that speaks to my opinion of their expertise. I remember interpretting that post from him as a 'spread out and don't put obscene numbers all at one keep, hit different targets', not 'take 20 people and spread them out in a single keep so they can die like pugs'. There is a strong narrative regarding 'ball groups', and even though I say it multiple times, after IC released we'd fight against GoS, SWP, plus pugs all at once and not have any lag on trueflame. The lag is derived from total players in a vicinity, not whether they're 10 meters within a barrier range. I've yet to hear a single person that drops the term 'ball group' when complaining about lag explain why those trueflame fights were fine. It's misinformation, plain and simple, and a group is an easier scapegoat because they instantly inject players into a fight vs the 24+ randoms trickling in that will impede the ping the same amount. So yes, my anger is and has been directed at zos, but that doesn't mean it's helpful to continue a false narrative and not correct the points where it's inaccurate. I feel like even if I asked guildies to dig up recordings of those fights, people would still continue believing what they want anyway.

Anyway, my point to ezareth is that there are indeed counters to things people have convinced themselves are unbeatable, and while easier, complaining about groups the entire time just furthers the toxic dialogue and makes it hard for new players to even want to give pvp a chance. Everyone is fed up with pvp, but after 2 years, you make due with what you have and try to have as much fun as possible. But now I'm way off topic for the thread.

Here are some of the most important factors that increase latency :

1) Too many players at the same time on the screen (30-40+) - May be linked to the anti-bot system
2) All factions being max pop (cap is too large and need to be reduced to what 3bars actually is)
3) More than one battle happening at once on the map
4) Too many players landing aoes simultaneously on large amount of players (no matter where they are on the map)

When you play on Trueflame, chances that there were more than one large fight happening on the map compared to Azura Star are minimal and I would bet that populations for all 3 factions were not maxed. Here is your explanation plane and simple.

When all populations are max pop and your 24men ballgroup hits a location with already considerable amount of players present, the ping for most people is already at 200-300ms. As soon as you start pushing in and land massive AOEs on players, it is the cherry on top of the cake. Ping skyrocket up to 800-1200ms for everybody until you've killed everybody (reducing the amount of players on the screens and aoe calculations in the meantime). If another fight is happening on the map at the same time, it gets even worst.

What did we learn today? Don't run 24men groups. Everybody should run maximum 16players to help performances and also encourage guilds cooperation in the same campaign to constantly apply pressure on both enemy factions rather than all hitting the same one.

Like many other points, this one has gone over your head as well. You admit that groups just end up being the cherry on top, and my argument is that the super majority of the blame game has made groups a boogeyman that is the sole cause of lag, and by doing so, skews the feedback and discussion away from drivers like population caps being too high, and towards solutions being some magic group busters that will have zero effect on ping if those same players end up running solo but still being at the same keep.

If people want lag to be addressed, willfully ignoring other contributors to focus on a single one simply because it's the easiest scapegoat does little to improve the situation. My concern remains that when so many complain to the devs about 'balls' being the drivers of lag, the deer haters will focus development of performance adjustment based on people in a tight radius and do little to nothing about the performance drop simply because of the volume of players at a keep, and THAT, is where performance needs to be optimized. I want performance improved just as much as the next guy, I just think devs need accurate and honest feedback to do so.

frozywozy

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

I've played since beta, 'ball groups' have been around since then. There were fewer because people were mostly pugs and running around with bows, but it's disingenuous to act like groups are a recent thing.

Regarding tornado, everyone agrees it has problems. I spent a few weeks working on a build that laughs it off and still kills them when I'm solo or in a group, so to the answer of what players still have to learn - experiment. We've recruited quite a few new players recently and get asked 'why am I dying, etc etc'. We review builds, talk to them about positioning, reaction, resource management, all the good stuff. So, what should new players learn? Don't be salty complaining about groups the entire time and make do with the laggy, broken mess that is cyrodiil until something better is available and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

While both playstyles shouldn't be targeted heavily, hard to dispute that even Rich from ZOS asked players to spread out in an effort to reduce server lag.

Which means, while the ball-groups format is one aspect of play that nobody can say is wrong to enjoy, its current effects serverwise are significant versus when the game started.

I mean, they also made an effort to remove the deer, sooo, I hope that speaks to my opinion of their expertise. I remember interpretting that post from him as a 'spread out and don't put obscene numbers all at one keep, hit different targets', not 'take 20 people and spread them out in a single keep so they can die like pugs'. There is a strong narrative regarding 'ball groups', and even though I say it multiple times, after IC released we'd fight against GoS, SWP, plus pugs all at once and not have any lag on trueflame. The lag is derived from total players in a vicinity, not whether they're 10 meters within a barrier range. I've yet to hear a single person that drops the term 'ball group' when complaining about lag explain why those trueflame fights were fine. It's misinformation, plain and simple, and a group is an easier scapegoat because they instantly inject players into a fight vs the 24+ randoms trickling in that will impede the ping the same amount. So yes, my anger is and has been directed at zos, but that doesn't mean it's helpful to continue a false narrative and not correct the points where it's inaccurate. I feel like even if I asked guildies to dig up recordings of those fights, people would still continue believing what they want anyway.

Anyway, my point to ezareth is that there are indeed counters to things people have convinced themselves are unbeatable, and while easier, complaining about groups the entire time just furthers the toxic dialogue and makes it hard for new players to even want to give pvp a chance. Everyone is fed up with pvp, but after 2 years, you make due with what you have and try to have as much fun as possible. But now I'm way off topic for the thread.

Here are some of the most important factors that increase latency :

1) Too many players at the same time on the screen (30-40+) - May be linked to the anti-bot system
2) All factions being max pop (cap is too large and need to be reduced to what 3bars actually is)
3) More than one battle happening at once on the map
4) Too many players landing aoes simultaneously on large amount of players (no matter where they are on the map)

When you play on Trueflame, chances that there were more than one large fight happening on the map compared to Azura Star are minimal and I would bet that populations for all 3 factions were not maxed. Here is your explanation plane and simple.

When all populations are max pop and your 24men ballgroup hits a location with already considerable amount of players present, the ping for most people is already at 200-300ms. As soon as you start pushing in and land massive AOEs on players, it is the cherry on top of the cake. Ping skyrocket up to 800-1200ms for everybody until you've killed everybody (reducing the amount of players on the screens and aoe calculations in the meantime). If another fight is happening on the map at the same time, it gets even worst.

What did we learn today? Don't run 24men groups. Everybody should run maximum 16players to help performances and also encourage guilds cooperation in the same campaign to constantly apply pressure on both enemy factions rather than all hitting the same one.

Like many other points, this one has gone over your head as well. You admit that groups just end up being the cherry on top, and my argument is that the super majority of the blame game has made groups a boogeyman that is the sole cause of lag, and by doing so, skews the feedback and discussion away from drivers like population caps being too high, and towards solutions being some magic group busters that will have zero effect on ping if those same players end up running solo but still being at the same keep.

If people want lag to be addressed, willfully ignoring other contributors to focus on a single one simply because it's the easiest scapegoat does little to improve the situation. My concern remains that when so many complain to the devs about 'balls' being the drivers of lag, the deer haters will focus development of performance adjustment based on people in a tight radius and do little to nothing about the performance drop simply because of the volume of players at a keep, and THAT, is where performance needs to be optimized. I want performance improved just as much as the next guy, I just think devs need accurate and honest feedback to do so.

In other words, you totally neglected once again that your actions and behaviours, when running into a 24men group spamming aoes, are part of the problem, and you hand the problems to devs who need to improve their game instead of reducing the size of your groups like most people have done already. Then you claim that I'm the one that the point goes over his head. Seriously?

In my post, I clearly enumerated several points that are the cause of the lag. Then you reply saying "and my argument is that the super majority of the blame game has made groups a boogeyman that is the sole cause of lag". Like, are you doing this on purpose? No one blame 24men groups ONLY. The problem is all these factors together as a whole. Now, which ones, as players, can we work on?

Reducing the population caps? No, that's Zenimax's end.
Reducing the number of fights happening at once on the map? Not really.
Reducing the number of players in the same area? Yes we can. By encouraging guild cooperation to hit both enemy fronts at once continuously rather than stacking 100players hitting the same objective.
Reducing the number of people in a group to lower the amount of aoe calculations going on at once? Yes we can.

PosternHouse

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

I've played since beta, 'ball groups' have been around since then. There were fewer because people were mostly pugs and running around with bows, but it's disingenuous to act like groups are a recent thing.

Regarding tornado, everyone agrees it has problems. I spent a few weeks working on a build that laughs it off and still kills them when I'm solo or in a group, so to the answer of what players still have to learn - experiment. We've recruited quite a few new players recently and get asked 'why am I dying, etc etc'. We review builds, talk to them about positioning, reaction, resource management, all the good stuff. So, what should new players learn? Don't be salty complaining about groups the entire time and make do with the laggy, broken mess that is cyrodiil until something better is available and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

While both playstyles shouldn't be targeted heavily, hard to dispute that even Rich from ZOS asked players to spread out in an effort to reduce server lag.

Which means, while the ball-groups format is one aspect of play that nobody can say is wrong to enjoy, its current effects serverwise are significant versus when the game started.

I mean, they also made an effort to remove the deer, sooo, I hope that speaks to my opinion of their expertise. I remember interpretting that post from him as a 'spread out and don't put obscene numbers all at one keep, hit different targets', not 'take 20 people and spread them out in a single keep so they can die like pugs'. There is a strong narrative regarding 'ball groups', and even though I say it multiple times, after IC released we'd fight against GoS, SWP, plus pugs all at once and not have any lag on trueflame. The lag is derived from total players in a vicinity, not whether they're 10 meters within a barrier range. I've yet to hear a single person that drops the term 'ball group' when complaining about lag explain why those trueflame fights were fine. It's misinformation, plain and simple, and a group is an easier scapegoat because they instantly inject players into a fight vs the 24+ randoms trickling in that will impede the ping the same amount. So yes, my anger is and has been directed at zos, but that doesn't mean it's helpful to continue a false narrative and not correct the points where it's inaccurate. I feel like even if I asked guildies to dig up recordings of those fights, people would still continue believing what they want anyway.

Anyway, my point to ezareth is that there are indeed counters to things people have convinced themselves are unbeatable, and while easier, complaining about groups the entire time just furthers the toxic dialogue and makes it hard for new players to even want to give pvp a chance. Everyone is fed up with pvp, but after 2 years, you make due with what you have and try to have as much fun as possible. But now I'm way off topic for the thread.

Here are some of the most important factors that increase latency :

1) Too many players at the same time on the screen (30-40+) - May be linked to the anti-bot system
2) All factions being max pop (cap is too large and need to be reduced to what 3bars actually is)
3) More than one battle happening at once on the map
4) Too many players landing aoes simultaneously on large amount of players (no matter where they are on the map)

When you play on Trueflame, chances that there were more than one large fight happening on the map compared to Azura Star are minimal and I would bet that populations for all 3 factions were not maxed. Here is your explanation plane and simple.

When all populations are max pop and your 24men ballgroup hits a location with already considerable amount of players present, the ping for most people is already at 200-300ms. As soon as you start pushing in and land massive AOEs on players, it is the cherry on top of the cake. Ping skyrocket up to 800-1200ms for everybody until you've killed everybody (reducing the amount of players on the screens and aoe calculations in the meantime). If another fight is happening on the map at the same time, it gets even worst.

What did we learn today? Don't run 24men groups. Everybody should run maximum 16players to help performances and also encourage guilds cooperation in the same campaign to constantly apply pressure on both enemy factions rather than all hitting the same one.

Like many other points, this one has gone over your head as well. You admit that groups just end up being the cherry on top, and my argument is that the super majority of the blame game has made groups a boogeyman that is the sole cause of lag, and by doing so, skews the feedback and discussion away from drivers like population caps being too high, and towards solutions being some magic group busters that will have zero effect on ping if those same players end up running solo but still being at the same keep.

If people want lag to be addressed, willfully ignoring other contributors to focus on a single one simply because it's the easiest scapegoat does little to improve the situation. My concern remains that when so many complain to the devs about 'balls' being the drivers of lag, the deer haters will focus development of performance adjustment based on people in a tight radius and do little to nothing about the performance drop simply because of the volume of players at a keep, and THAT, is where performance needs to be optimized. I want performance improved just as much as the next guy, I just think devs need accurate and honest feedback to do so.

In other words, you totally neglated once again that your actions and behaviours, when running into a 24men group spamming aoes, are part of the problem, and you hand the problems to devs who need to improve their game instead of reducing the size of your groups like most have done already. well done

Good God man. Players being present in this game doing gameplay things causes the lag ... and you're blaming players for organizing themselves. A 16 man group is only 8 smaller than 24. You think an extra 8 per group people causes the ping to go 999+.

My response to your efforts to think critically:



[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

CN_Daniel

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

I've played since beta, 'ball groups' have been around since then. There were fewer because people were mostly pugs and running around with bows, but it's disingenuous to act like groups are a recent thing.

Regarding tornado, everyone agrees it has problems. I spent a few weeks working on a build that laughs it off and still kills them when I'm solo or in a group, so to the answer of what players still have to learn - experiment. We've recruited quite a few new players recently and get asked 'why am I dying, etc etc'. We review builds, talk to them about positioning, reaction, resource management, all the good stuff. So, what should new players learn? Don't be salty complaining about groups the entire time and make do with the laggy, broken mess that is cyrodiil until something better is available and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

While both playstyles shouldn't be targeted heavily, hard to dispute that even Rich from ZOS asked players to spread out in an effort to reduce server lag.

Which means, while the ball-groups format is one aspect of play that nobody can say is wrong to enjoy, its current effects serverwise are significant versus when the game started.

I mean, they also made an effort to remove the deer, sooo, I hope that speaks to my opinion of their expertise. I remember interpretting that post from him as a 'spread out and don't put obscene numbers all at one keep, hit different targets', not 'take 20 people and spread them out in a single keep so they can die like pugs'. There is a strong narrative regarding 'ball groups', and even though I say it multiple times, after IC released we'd fight against GoS, SWP, plus pugs all at once and not have any lag on trueflame. The lag is derived from total players in a vicinity, not whether they're 10 meters within a barrier range. I've yet to hear a single person that drops the term 'ball group' when complaining about lag explain why those trueflame fights were fine. It's misinformation, plain and simple, and a group is an easier scapegoat because they instantly inject players into a fight vs the 24+ randoms trickling in that will impede the ping the same amount. So yes, my anger is and has been directed at zos, but that doesn't mean it's helpful to continue a false narrative and not correct the points where it's inaccurate. I feel like even if I asked guildies to dig up recordings of those fights, people would still continue believing what they want anyway.

Anyway, my point to ezareth is that there are indeed counters to things people have convinced themselves are unbeatable, and while easier, complaining about groups the entire time just furthers the toxic dialogue and makes it hard for new players to even want to give pvp a chance. Everyone is fed up with pvp, but after 2 years, you make due with what you have and try to have as much fun as possible. But now I'm way off topic for the thread.

Here are some of the most important factors that increase latency :

1) Too many players at the same time on the screen (30-40+) - May be linked to the anti-bot system
2) All factions being max pop (cap is too large and need to be reduced to what 3bars actually is)
3) More than one battle happening at once on the map
4) Too many players landing aoes simultaneously on large amount of players (no matter where they are on the map)

When you play on Trueflame, chances that there were more than one large fight happening on the map compared to Azura Star are minimal and I would bet that populations for all 3 factions were not maxed. Here is your explanation plane and simple.

When all populations are max pop and your 24men ballgroup hits a location with already considerable amount of players present, the ping for most people is already at 200-300ms. As soon as you start pushing in and land massive AOEs on players, it is the cherry on top of the cake. Ping skyrocket up to 800-1200ms for everybody until you've killed everybody (reducing the amount of players on the screens and aoe calculations in the meantime). If another fight is happening on the map at the same time, it gets even worst.

What did we learn today? Don't run 24men groups. Everybody should run maximum 16players to help performances and also encourage guilds cooperation in the same campaign to constantly apply pressure on both enemy factions rather than all hitting the same one.

Like many other points, this one has gone over your head as well. You admit that groups just end up being the cherry on top, and my argument is that the super majority of the blame game has made groups a boogeyman that is the sole cause of lag, and by doing so, skews the feedback and discussion away from drivers like population caps being too high, and towards solutions being some magic group busters that will have zero effect on ping if those same players end up running solo but still being at the same keep.

If people want lag to be addressed, willfully ignoring other contributors to focus on a single one simply because it's the easiest scapegoat does little to improve the situation. My concern remains that when so many complain to the devs about 'balls' being the drivers of lag, the deer haters will focus development of performance adjustment based on people in a tight radius and do little to nothing about the performance drop simply because of the volume of players at a keep, and THAT, is where performance needs to be optimized. I want performance improved just as much as the next guy, I just think devs need accurate and honest feedback to do so.

In other words, you totally neglected once again that your actions and behaviours, when running into a 24men group spamming aoes, are part of the problem, and you hand the problems to devs who need to improve their game instead of reducing the size of your groups like most people have done already. Then you claim that I'm the one that the point goes over his head. Seriously?

It isn't 24 vs 24 that's the problem. It's the amount of people in the campaign in a general area. Go do a 24 v 24 in Axe and tell me again GvG is the problem...

_Chaos

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

I've played since beta, 'ball groups' have been around since then. There were fewer because people were mostly pugs and running around with bows, but it's disingenuous to act like groups are a recent thing.

Regarding tornado, everyone agrees it has problems. I spent a few weeks working on a build that laughs it off and still kills them when I'm solo or in a group, so to the answer of what players still have to learn - experiment. We've recruited quite a few new players recently and get asked 'why am I dying, etc etc'. We review builds, talk to them about positioning, reaction, resource management, all the good stuff. So, what should new players learn? Don't be salty complaining about groups the entire time and make do with the laggy, broken mess that is cyrodiil until something better is available and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

While both playstyles shouldn't be targeted heavily, hard to dispute that even Rich from ZOS asked players to spread out in an effort to reduce server lag.

Which means, while the ball-groups format is one aspect of play that nobody can say is wrong to enjoy, its current effects serverwise are significant versus when the game started.

I mean, they also made an effort to remove the deer, sooo, I hope that speaks to my opinion of their expertise. I remember interpretting that post from him as a 'spread out and don't put obscene numbers all at one keep, hit different targets', not 'take 20 people and spread them out in a single keep so they can die like pugs'. There is a strong narrative regarding 'ball groups', and even though I say it multiple times, after IC released we'd fight against GoS, SWP, plus pugs all at once and not have any lag on trueflame. The lag is derived from total players in a vicinity, not whether they're 10 meters within a barrier range. I've yet to hear a single person that drops the term 'ball group' when complaining about lag explain why those trueflame fights were fine. It's misinformation, plain and simple, and a group is an easier scapegoat because they instantly inject players into a fight vs the 24+ randoms trickling in that will impede the ping the same amount. So yes, my anger is and has been directed at zos, but that doesn't mean it's helpful to continue a false narrative and not correct the points where it's inaccurate. I feel like even if I asked guildies to dig up recordings of those fights, people would still continue believing what they want anyway.

Anyway, my point to ezareth is that there are indeed counters to things people have convinced themselves are unbeatable, and while easier, complaining about groups the entire time just furthers the toxic dialogue and makes it hard for new players to even want to give pvp a chance. Everyone is fed up with pvp, but after 2 years, you make due with what you have and try to have as much fun as possible. But now I'm way off topic for the thread.

Here are some of the most important factors that increase latency :

1) Too many players at the same time on the screen (30-40+) - May be linked to the anti-bot system
2) All factions being max pop (cap is too large and need to be reduced to what 3bars actually is)
3) More than one battle happening at once on the map
4) Too many players landing aoes simultaneously on large amount of players (no matter where they are on the map)

When you play on Trueflame, chances that there were more than one large fight happening on the map compared to Azura Star are minimal and I would bet that populations for all 3 factions were not maxed. Here is your explanation plane and simple.

When all populations are max pop and your 24men ballgroup hits a location with already considerable amount of players present, the ping for most people is already at 200-300ms. As soon as you start pushing in and land massive AOEs on players, it is the cherry on top of the cake. Ping skyrocket up to 800-1200ms for everybody until you've killed everybody (reducing the amount of players on the screens and aoe calculations in the meantime). If another fight is happening on the map at the same time, it gets even worst.

What did we learn today? Don't run 24men groups. Everybody should run maximum 16players to help performances and also encourage guilds cooperation in the same campaign to constantly apply pressure on both enemy factions rather than all hitting the same one.

Like many other points, this one has gone over your head as well. You admit that groups just end up being the cherry on top, and my argument is that the super majority of the blame game has made groups a boogeyman that is the sole cause of lag, and by doing so, skews the feedback and discussion away from drivers like population caps being too high, and towards solutions being some magic group busters that will have zero effect on ping if those same players end up running solo but still being at the same keep.

If people want lag to be addressed, willfully ignoring other contributors to focus on a single one simply because it's the easiest scapegoat does little to improve the situation. My concern remains that when so many complain to the devs about 'balls' being the drivers of lag, the deer haters will focus development of performance adjustment based on people in a tight radius and do little to nothing about the performance drop simply because of the volume of players at a keep, and THAT, is where performance needs to be optimized. I want performance improved just as much as the next guy, I just think devs need accurate and honest feedback to do so.

In other words, you totally neglected once again that your actions and behaviours, when running into a 24men group spamming aoes, are part of the problem, and you hand the problems to devs who need to improve their game instead of reducing the size of your groups like most people have done already. Then you claim that I'm the one with the point that goes over his head. I just can't...... lol

If ZOS wanted smaller groups, they literally have to change one thing. Group size. Could be changed in minutes.
As soon as they show some initiative, any initiative, the player base will follow suit. Until then people will play the game as intended.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

LazyLewis

Erynyes wrote: »

tx haxus, you guys hopping to haderus tonight really made a difference, instead of dethroning K-hole and having a red emp, your scroll farming cost us most of the map and a yellow emp, GG! go DIAF at brindle in AS and let us pvp on other server without your toxic presence

Do not rely on other factions to dethrone the glorious K Hole. We have bossed our Empship's for the last week with a smaller pop most of the nights. I played until 11pm EST last night and it was 3bars blue pop lock red and yellow.

Elong

Sad to see this thread take another negative spin. I always log in late at night due to my timezone, and Haxus had had enough of the lag in AZ from all accounts, but were preparing to jump back in after it had settled down. You can't blame people for being frustrated at the lag.

Sad to see some EP called out by "elitists" in zone chat, just ignore them, we really want coordination, and EP played fantastically to get a late night (server time) Emp push. Some of these people you consider elitists are nobodies FYI, pay them no attention. Although Daniel had pulled out at that stage, I hope it's a moral boost for EP and we can have many more nights like that.

frozywozy

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

I've played since beta, 'ball groups' have been around since then. There were fewer because people were mostly pugs and running around with bows, but it's disingenuous to act like groups are a recent thing.

Regarding tornado, everyone agrees it has problems. I spent a few weeks working on a build that laughs it off and still kills them when I'm solo or in a group, so to the answer of what players still have to learn - experiment. We've recruited quite a few new players recently and get asked 'why am I dying, etc etc'. We review builds, talk to them about positioning, reaction, resource management, all the good stuff. So, what should new players learn? Don't be salty complaining about groups the entire time and make do with the laggy, broken mess that is cyrodiil until something better is available and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

While both playstyles shouldn't be targeted heavily, hard to dispute that even Rich from ZOS asked players to spread out in an effort to reduce server lag.

Which means, while the ball-groups format is one aspect of play that nobody can say is wrong to enjoy, its current effects serverwise are significant versus when the game started.

I mean, they also made an effort to remove the deer, sooo, I hope that speaks to my opinion of their expertise. I remember interpretting that post from him as a 'spread out and don't put obscene numbers all at one keep, hit different targets', not 'take 20 people and spread them out in a single keep so they can die like pugs'. There is a strong narrative regarding 'ball groups', and even though I say it multiple times, after IC released we'd fight against GoS, SWP, plus pugs all at once and not have any lag on trueflame. The lag is derived from total players in a vicinity, not whether they're 10 meters within a barrier range. I've yet to hear a single person that drops the term 'ball group' when complaining about lag explain why those trueflame fights were fine. It's misinformation, plain and simple, and a group is an easier scapegoat because they instantly inject players into a fight vs the 24+ randoms trickling in that will impede the ping the same amount. So yes, my anger is and has been directed at zos, but that doesn't mean it's helpful to continue a false narrative and not correct the points where it's inaccurate. I feel like even if I asked guildies to dig up recordings of those fights, people would still continue believing what they want anyway.

Anyway, my point to ezareth is that there are indeed counters to things people have convinced themselves are unbeatable, and while easier, complaining about groups the entire time just furthers the toxic dialogue and makes it hard for new players to even want to give pvp a chance. Everyone is fed up with pvp, but after 2 years, you make due with what you have and try to have as much fun as possible. But now I'm way off topic for the thread.

Here are some of the most important factors that increase latency :

1) Too many players at the same time on the screen (30-40+) - May be linked to the anti-bot system
2) All factions being max pop (cap is too large and need to be reduced to what 3bars actually is)
3) More than one battle happening at once on the map
4) Too many players landing aoes simultaneously on large amount of players (no matter where they are on the map)

When you play on Trueflame, chances that there were more than one large fight happening on the map compared to Azura Star are minimal and I would bet that populations for all 3 factions were not maxed. Here is your explanation plane and simple.

When all populations are max pop and your 24men ballgroup hits a location with already considerable amount of players present, the ping for most people is already at 200-300ms. As soon as you start pushing in and land massive AOEs on players, it is the cherry on top of the cake. Ping skyrocket up to 800-1200ms for everybody until you've killed everybody (reducing the amount of players on the screens and aoe calculations in the meantime). If another fight is happening on the map at the same time, it gets even worst.

What did we learn today? Don't run 24men groups. Everybody should run maximum 16players to help performances and also encourage guilds cooperation in the same campaign to constantly apply pressure on both enemy factions rather than all hitting the same one.

Like many other points, this one has gone over your head as well. You admit that groups just end up being the cherry on top, and my argument is that the super majority of the blame game has made groups a boogeyman that is the sole cause of lag, and by doing so, skews the feedback and discussion away from drivers like population caps being too high, and towards solutions being some magic group busters that will have zero effect on ping if those same players end up running solo but still being at the same keep.

If people want lag to be addressed, willfully ignoring other contributors to focus on a single one simply because it's the easiest scapegoat does little to improve the situation. My concern remains that when so many complain to the devs about 'balls' being the drivers of lag, the deer haters will focus development of performance adjustment based on people in a tight radius and do little to nothing about the performance drop simply because of the volume of players at a keep, and THAT, is where performance needs to be optimized. I want performance improved just as much as the next guy, I just think devs need accurate and honest feedback to do so.

In other words, you totally neglected once again that your actions and behaviours, when running into a 24men group spamming aoes, are part of the problem, and you hand the problems to devs who need to improve their game instead of reducing the size of your groups like most people have done already. Then you claim that I'm the one with the point that goes over his head. I just can't...... lol

BTW, If ZOS wanted smaller groups, they literally have to change one thing. Group size. Could be changed in minutes.
As soon as they show some initiative, any initiative, the player base will follow suit. Until then people will play the game as intended.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

PosternHouse

CN_Daniel wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

I've played since beta, 'ball groups' have been around since then. There were fewer because people were mostly pugs and running around with bows, but it's disingenuous to act like groups are a recent thing.

Regarding tornado, everyone agrees it has problems. I spent a few weeks working on a build that laughs it off and still kills them when I'm solo or in a group, so to the answer of what players still have to learn - experiment. We've recruited quite a few new players recently and get asked 'why am I dying, etc etc'. We review builds, talk to them about positioning, reaction, resource management, all the good stuff. So, what should new players learn? Don't be salty complaining about groups the entire time and make do with the laggy, broken mess that is cyrodiil until something better is available and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

While both playstyles shouldn't be targeted heavily, hard to dispute that even Rich from ZOS asked players to spread out in an effort to reduce server lag.

Which means, while the ball-groups format is one aspect of play that nobody can say is wrong to enjoy, its current effects serverwise are significant versus when the game started.

I mean, they also made an effort to remove the deer, sooo, I hope that speaks to my opinion of their expertise. I remember interpretting that post from him as a 'spread out and don't put obscene numbers all at one keep, hit different targets', not 'take 20 people and spread them out in a single keep so they can die like pugs'. There is a strong narrative regarding 'ball groups', and even though I say it multiple times, after IC released we'd fight against GoS, SWP, plus pugs all at once and not have any lag on trueflame. The lag is derived from total players in a vicinity, not whether they're 10 meters within a barrier range. I've yet to hear a single person that drops the term 'ball group' when complaining about lag explain why those trueflame fights were fine. It's misinformation, plain and simple, and a group is an easier scapegoat because they instantly inject players into a fight vs the 24+ randoms trickling in that will impede the ping the same amount. So yes, my anger is and has been directed at zos, but that doesn't mean it's helpful to continue a false narrative and not correct the points where it's inaccurate. I feel like even if I asked guildies to dig up recordings of those fights, people would still continue believing what they want anyway.

Anyway, my point to ezareth is that there are indeed counters to things people have convinced themselves are unbeatable, and while easier, complaining about groups the entire time just furthers the toxic dialogue and makes it hard for new players to even want to give pvp a chance. Everyone is fed up with pvp, but after 2 years, you make due with what you have and try to have as much fun as possible. But now I'm way off topic for the thread.

Here are some of the most important factors that increase latency :

1) Too many players at the same time on the screen (30-40+) - May be linked to the anti-bot system
2) All factions being max pop (cap is too large and need to be reduced to what 3bars actually is)
3) More than one battle happening at once on the map
4) Too many players landing aoes simultaneously on large amount of players (no matter where they are on the map)

When you play on Trueflame, chances that there were more than one large fight happening on the map compared to Azura Star are minimal and I would bet that populations for all 3 factions were not maxed. Here is your explanation plane and simple.

When all populations are max pop and your 24men ballgroup hits a location with already considerable amount of players present, the ping for most people is already at 200-300ms. As soon as you start pushing in and land massive AOEs on players, it is the cherry on top of the cake. Ping skyrocket up to 800-1200ms for everybody until you've killed everybody (reducing the amount of players on the screens and aoe calculations in the meantime). If another fight is happening on the map at the same time, it gets even worst.

What did we learn today? Don't run 24men groups. Everybody should run maximum 16players to help performances and also encourage guilds cooperation in the same campaign to constantly apply pressure on both enemy factions rather than all hitting the same one.

Like many other points, this one has gone over your head as well. You admit that groups just end up being the cherry on top, and my argument is that the super majority of the blame game has made groups a boogeyman that is the sole cause of lag, and by doing so, skews the feedback and discussion away from drivers like population caps being too high, and towards solutions being some magic group busters that will have zero effect on ping if those same players end up running solo but still being at the same keep.

If people want lag to be addressed, willfully ignoring other contributors to focus on a single one simply because it's the easiest scapegoat does little to improve the situation. My concern remains that when so many complain to the devs about 'balls' being the drivers of lag, the deer haters will focus development of performance adjustment based on people in a tight radius and do little to nothing about the performance drop simply because of the volume of players at a keep, and THAT, is where performance needs to be optimized. I want performance improved just as much as the next guy, I just think devs need accurate and honest feedback to do so.

In other words, you totally neglected once again that your actions and behaviours, when running into a 24men group spamming aoes, are part of the problem, and you hand the problems to devs who need to improve their game instead of reducing the size of your groups like most people have done already. Then you claim that I'm the one that the point goes over his head. Seriously?

It isn't 24 vs 24 that's the problem. It's the amount of people in the campaign in a general area. Go do a 24 v 24 in Axe and tell me again GvG is the problem...

It physically harms me to agree with you. What are these feelings?

Elong wrote:

hope it's a moral boost for EP

No. You're all filthy, depraved savages. Accept the enlightened rule of your Covenant overlords. As long as you're not an orc you'll have rights and stuff.

Elong

PosternHouse wrote: »

CN_Daniel wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

I've played since beta, 'ball groups' have been around since then. There were fewer because people were mostly pugs and running around with bows, but it's disingenuous to act like groups are a recent thing.

Regarding tornado, everyone agrees it has problems. I spent a few weeks working on a build that laughs it off and still kills them when I'm solo or in a group, so to the answer of what players still have to learn - experiment. We've recruited quite a few new players recently and get asked 'why am I dying, etc etc'. We review builds, talk to them about positioning, reaction, resource management, all the good stuff. So, what should new players learn? Don't be salty complaining about groups the entire time and make do with the laggy, broken mess that is cyrodiil until something better is available and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

While both playstyles shouldn't be targeted heavily, hard to dispute that even Rich from ZOS asked players to spread out in an effort to reduce server lag.

Which means, while the ball-groups format is one aspect of play that nobody can say is wrong to enjoy, its current effects serverwise are significant versus when the game started.

I mean, they also made an effort to remove the deer, sooo, I hope that speaks to my opinion of their expertise. I remember interpretting that post from him as a 'spread out and don't put obscene numbers all at one keep, hit different targets', not 'take 20 people and spread them out in a single keep so they can die like pugs'. There is a strong narrative regarding 'ball groups', and even though I say it multiple times, after IC released we'd fight against GoS, SWP, plus pugs all at once and not have any lag on trueflame. The lag is derived from total players in a vicinity, not whether they're 10 meters within a barrier range. I've yet to hear a single person that drops the term 'ball group' when complaining about lag explain why those trueflame fights were fine. It's misinformation, plain and simple, and a group is an easier scapegoat because they instantly inject players into a fight vs the 24+ randoms trickling in that will impede the ping the same amount. So yes, my anger is and has been directed at zos, but that doesn't mean it's helpful to continue a false narrative and not correct the points where it's inaccurate. I feel like even if I asked guildies to dig up recordings of those fights, people would still continue believing what they want anyway.

Anyway, my point to ezareth is that there are indeed counters to things people have convinced themselves are unbeatable, and while easier, complaining about groups the entire time just furthers the toxic dialogue and makes it hard for new players to even want to give pvp a chance. Everyone is fed up with pvp, but after 2 years, you make due with what you have and try to have as much fun as possible. But now I'm way off topic for the thread.

Here are some of the most important factors that increase latency :

1) Too many players at the same time on the screen (30-40+) - May be linked to the anti-bot system
2) All factions being max pop (cap is too large and need to be reduced to what 3bars actually is)
3) More than one battle happening at once on the map
4) Too many players landing aoes simultaneously on large amount of players (no matter where they are on the map)

When you play on Trueflame, chances that there were more than one large fight happening on the map compared to Azura Star are minimal and I would bet that populations for all 3 factions were not maxed. Here is your explanation plane and simple.

When all populations are max pop and your 24men ballgroup hits a location with already considerable amount of players present, the ping for most people is already at 200-300ms. As soon as you start pushing in and land massive AOEs on players, it is the cherry on top of the cake. Ping skyrocket up to 800-1200ms for everybody until you've killed everybody (reducing the amount of players on the screens and aoe calculations in the meantime). If another fight is happening on the map at the same time, it gets even worst.

What did we learn today? Don't run 24men groups. Everybody should run maximum 16players to help performances and also encourage guilds cooperation in the same campaign to constantly apply pressure on both enemy factions rather than all hitting the same one.

Like many other points, this one has gone over your head as well. You admit that groups just end up being the cherry on top, and my argument is that the super majority of the blame game has made groups a boogeyman that is the sole cause of lag, and by doing so, skews the feedback and discussion away from drivers like population caps being too high, and towards solutions being some magic group busters that will have zero effect on ping if those same players end up running solo but still being at the same keep.

If people want lag to be addressed, willfully ignoring other contributors to focus on a single one simply because it's the easiest scapegoat does little to improve the situation. My concern remains that when so many complain to the devs about 'balls' being the drivers of lag, the deer haters will focus development of performance adjustment based on people in a tight radius and do little to nothing about the performance drop simply because of the volume of players at a keep, and THAT, is where performance needs to be optimized. I want performance improved just as much as the next guy, I just think devs need accurate and honest feedback to do so.

In other words, you totally neglected once again that your actions and behaviours, when running into a 24men group spamming aoes, are part of the problem, and you hand the problems to devs who need to improve their game instead of reducing the size of your groups like most people have done already. Then you claim that I'm the one that the point goes over his head. Seriously?

It isn't 24 vs 24 that's the problem. It's the amount of people in the campaign in a general area. Go do a 24 v 24 in Axe and tell me again GvG is the problem...

It physically harms me to agree with you. What are these feelings?

Elong wrote:

hope it's a moral boost for EP

No. You're all filthy, depraved savages. Accept the enlightened rule of your Covenant overlords. As long as you're not an orc you'll have rights and stuff.

I'm an Altmer, so we're gonna have a problem here!

_Chaos

frozywozy wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

I've played since beta, 'ball groups' have been around since then. There were fewer because people were mostly pugs and running around with bows, but it's disingenuous to act like groups are a recent thing.

Regarding tornado, everyone agrees it has problems. I spent a few weeks working on a build that laughs it off and still kills them when I'm solo or in a group, so to the answer of what players still have to learn - experiment. We've recruited quite a few new players recently and get asked 'why am I dying, etc etc'. We review builds, talk to them about positioning, reaction, resource management, all the good stuff. So, what should new players learn? Don't be salty complaining about groups the entire time and make do with the laggy, broken mess that is cyrodiil until something better is available and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

While both playstyles shouldn't be targeted heavily, hard to dispute that even Rich from ZOS asked players to spread out in an effort to reduce server lag.

Which means, while the ball-groups format is one aspect of play that nobody can say is wrong to enjoy, its current effects serverwise are significant versus when the game started.

I mean, they also made an effort to remove the deer, sooo, I hope that speaks to my opinion of their expertise. I remember interpretting that post from him as a 'spread out and don't put obscene numbers all at one keep, hit different targets', not 'take 20 people and spread them out in a single keep so they can die like pugs'. There is a strong narrative regarding 'ball groups', and even though I say it multiple times, after IC released we'd fight against GoS, SWP, plus pugs all at once and not have any lag on trueflame. The lag is derived from total players in a vicinity, not whether they're 10 meters within a barrier range. I've yet to hear a single person that drops the term 'ball group' when complaining about lag explain why those trueflame fights were fine. It's misinformation, plain and simple, and a group is an easier scapegoat because they instantly inject players into a fight vs the 24+ randoms trickling in that will impede the ping the same amount. So yes, my anger is and has been directed at zos, but that doesn't mean it's helpful to continue a false narrative and not correct the points where it's inaccurate. I feel like even if I asked guildies to dig up recordings of those fights, people would still continue believing what they want anyway.

Anyway, my point to ezareth is that there are indeed counters to things people have convinced themselves are unbeatable, and while easier, complaining about groups the entire time just furthers the toxic dialogue and makes it hard for new players to even want to give pvp a chance. Everyone is fed up with pvp, but after 2 years, you make due with what you have and try to have as much fun as possible. But now I'm way off topic for the thread.

Here are some of the most important factors that increase latency :

1) Too many players at the same time on the screen (30-40+) - May be linked to the anti-bot system
2) All factions being max pop (cap is too large and need to be reduced to what 3bars actually is)
3) More than one battle happening at once on the map
4) Too many players landing aoes simultaneously on large amount of players (no matter where they are on the map)

When you play on Trueflame, chances that there were more than one large fight happening on the map compared to Azura Star are minimal and I would bet that populations for all 3 factions were not maxed. Here is your explanation plane and simple.

When all populations are max pop and your 24men ballgroup hits a location with already considerable amount of players present, the ping for most people is already at 200-300ms. As soon as you start pushing in and land massive AOEs on players, it is the cherry on top of the cake. Ping skyrocket up to 800-1200ms for everybody until you've killed everybody (reducing the amount of players on the screens and aoe calculations in the meantime). If another fight is happening on the map at the same time, it gets even worst.

What did we learn today? Don't run 24men groups. Everybody should run maximum 16players to help performances and also encourage guilds cooperation in the same campaign to constantly apply pressure on both enemy factions rather than all hitting the same one.

Like many other points, this one has gone over your head as well. You admit that groups just end up being the cherry on top, and my argument is that the super majority of the blame game has made groups a boogeyman that is the sole cause of lag, and by doing so, skews the feedback and discussion away from drivers like population caps being too high, and towards solutions being some magic group busters that will have zero effect on ping if those same players end up running solo but still being at the same keep.

If people want lag to be addressed, willfully ignoring other contributors to focus on a single one simply because it's the easiest scapegoat does little to improve the situation. My concern remains that when so many complain to the devs about 'balls' being the drivers of lag, the deer haters will focus development of performance adjustment based on people in a tight radius and do little to nothing about the performance drop simply because of the volume of players at a keep, and THAT, is where performance needs to be optimized. I want performance improved just as much as the next guy, I just think devs need accurate and honest feedback to do so.

In other words, you totally neglected once again that your actions and behaviours, when running into a 24men group spamming aoes, are part of the problem, and you hand the problems to devs who need to improve their game instead of reducing the size of your groups like most people have done already. Then you claim that I'm the one with the point that goes over his head. I just can't...... lol

God you look dumb. Have you considered deleting your forum account?

BTW, If ZOS wanted smaller groups, they literally have to change one thing. Group size. Could be changed in minutes.
As soon as they show some initiative, any initiative, the player base will follow suit. Until then people will play the game as intended.

Oh sorry is 24 people in a group not intended? Should we all be putting in bug reports?
@Wrobel did you know the group size is glitched out and allowing 24 people to be grouped up at once?

God_flakes

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Can't DC just have their moment in the sun? Geez, EP. <eyeroll>

Hey, you're supposed to be back herding puglets >8(

My well meaning, if not somewhat controlling, in game drill sergeant has decided I need grinding to buff my body. When boot camp is over I will return to my former pug herding glory. My one regret is GoS won't be around to get pushed to their spawn point.

FENGRUSH

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

Clearly not favored by the devs yet their ground oils cost 200 AP less for how many years!?

Zheg wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

EP just isn't favored by the devs.

Look at the racials, look at the type of faction it is cannon wise, look at it's placement in sewers.

It seems strategically gutted on purpose.

This is just silly.

EP does need love, not from the devs, but from their own pvpers that have (since launch, though is is from an outsider's perspective) seemingly ignored them. If the problem is identified as EP having hordes of pugs and no direction, well, not to be mean, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't blue or yellow's. You can try and cast blame at a single guild reroll, but if the number of untrained red pugs is what the OP indicates, clearly it was just masking an already existing problem that wasn't being addressed by red to begin with.

While they all have core players, I'd say the majority of blue guilds are all open to pugs. So, red isn't the only one with pugs, we just have guilds that rangle them and help bridge the pvp knowledge gap. Even though my left eye starts to twitch when I see 60+ yellows head to ash mine, clearly people like lolli have helped give the yellow pugs direction and purpose.

Can't really blame players for not wanting to spend the time to help bring the pugs up to par - it's a video game after all and your own time, but if those same players then want to complain about the problem, well that, too, (going full circle) is just silly.

Personally I think less organization and chaos from all sides improves the game for all players. Most of us who have been playing since Beta got to experience a Cyrodiil that wasn't dominated by organized ball groups and had a good selection of players of varying skill running around in which to improve ourselves.

After dying to a laggy ass spamnado ball for the 10th time, what does a new player have to learn other than Cyrodiil is just not fun?

I've played since beta, 'ball groups' have been around since then. There were fewer because people were mostly pugs and running around with bows, but it's disingenuous to act like groups are a recent thing.

Regarding tornado, everyone agrees it has problems. I spent a few weeks working on a build that laughs it off and still kills them when I'm solo or in a group, so to the answer of what players still have to learn - experiment. We've recruited quite a few new players recently and get asked 'why am I dying, etc etc'. We review builds, talk to them about positioning, reaction, resource management, all the good stuff. So, what should new players learn? Don't be salty complaining about groups the entire time and make do with the laggy, broken mess that is cyrodiil until something better is available and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

While both playstyles shouldn't be targeted heavily, hard to dispute that even Rich from ZOS asked players to spread out in an effort to reduce server lag.

Which means, while the ball-groups format is one aspect of play that nobody can say is wrong to enjoy, its current effects serverwise are significant versus when the game started.

I mean, they also made an effort to remove the deer, sooo, I hope that speaks to my opinion of their expertise. I remember interpretting that post from him as a 'spread out and don't put obscene numbers all at one keep, hit different targets', not 'take 20 people and spread them out in a single keep so they can die like pugs'. There is a strong narrative regarding 'ball groups', and even though I say it multiple times, after IC released we'd fight against GoS, SWP, plus pugs all at once and not have any lag on trueflame. The lag is derived from total players in a vicinity, not whether they're 10 meters within a barrier range. I've yet to hear a single person that drops the term 'ball group' when complaining about lag explain why those trueflame fights were fine. It's misinformation, plain and simple, and a group is an easier scapegoat because they instantly inject players into a fight vs the 24+ randoms trickling in that will impede the ping the same amount. So yes, my anger is and has been directed at zos, but that doesn't mean it's helpful to continue a false narrative and not correct the points where it's inaccurate. I feel like even if I asked guildies to dig up recordings of those fights, people would still continue believing what they want anyway.

Anyway, my point to ezareth is that there are indeed counters to things people have convinced themselves are unbeatable, and while easier, complaining about groups the entire time just furthers the toxic dialogue and makes it hard for new players to even want to give pvp a chance. Everyone is fed up with pvp, but after 2 years, you make due with what you have and try to have as much fun as possible. But now I'm way off topic for the thread.

Here are some of the most important factors that increase latency :

1) Too many players at the same time on the screen (30-40+) - May be linked to the anti-bot system
2) All factions being max pop (cap is too large and need to be reduced to what 3bars actually is)
3) More than one battle happening at once on the map
4) Too many players landing aoes simultaneously on large amount of players (no matter where they are on the map)

When you play on Trueflame, chances that there were more than one large fight happening on the map compared to Azura Star are minimal and I would bet that populations for all 3 factions were not maxed. Here is your explanation plane and simple.

When all populations are max pop and your 24men ballgroup hits a location with already considerable amount of players present, the ping for most people is already at 200-300ms. As soon as you start pushing in and land massive AOEs on players, it is the cherry on top of the cake. Ping skyrocket up to 800-1200ms for everybody until you've killed everybody (reducing the amount of players on the screens and aoe calculations in the meantime). If another fight is happening on the map at the same time, it gets even worst.

What did we learn today? Don't run 24men groups. Everybody should run maximum 16players to help performances and also encourage guilds cooperation in the same campaign to constantly apply pressure on both enemy factions rather than all hitting the same one.

Like many other points, this one has gone over your head as well. You admit that groups just end up being the cherry on top, and my argument is that the super majority of the blame game has made groups a boogeyman that is the sole cause of lag, and by doing so, skews the feedback and discussion away from drivers like population caps being too high, and towards solutions being some magic group busters that will have zero effect on ping if those same players end up running solo but still being at the same keep.

If people want lag to be addressed, willfully ignoring other contributors to focus on a single one simply because it's the easiest scapegoat does little to improve the situation. My concern remains that when so many complain to the devs about 'balls' being the drivers of lag, the deer haters will focus development of performance adjustment based on people in a tight radius and do little to nothing about the performance drop simply because of the volume of players at a keep, and THAT, is where performance needs to be optimized. I want performance improved just as much as the next guy, I just think devs need accurate and honest feedback to do so.

In other words, you totally neglected once again that your actions and behaviours, when running into a 24men group spamming aoes, are part of the problem, and you hand the problems to devs who need to improve their game instead of reducing the size of your groups like most people have done already. Then you claim that I'm the one with the point that goes over his head. I just can't...... lol

BTW, If ZOS wanted smaller groups, they literally have to change one thing. Group size. Could be changed in minutes.
As soon as they show some initiative, any initiative, the player base will follow suit. Until then people will play the game as intended.

Oh sorry is 24 people in a group not intended? Should we all be putting in bug reports?
@Wrobel did you know the group size is glitched out and allowing 24 people to be grouped up at once?

Already submitted this report!

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Ghost-Shot

Ghostbane wrote: »

LazyLewis wrote: »

I'm making a new faction

Would you like to join the fourth unofficial faction, the Glorious Republic of Magicka Dragonknights ?

Invite please. Thanks.

Ghost-Shot

frozywozy wrote: »

Force-Siphon wrote: »

EP doesn't need more people it needs good players to train up weaker ones. Guilds rerolliing at this point is only going to tip the scales another way and we all know it. Wake me up when EP is getting gate camped which is never the case.

I agree with the first part of what u've said but regarding the last part, EP doesn't get gate camped because DC guilds don't care as much for objectives as they do for AP farming. Otherwise, EP would have been gate camped continuously since the past 3months or so.

Best proof was yesterday evening. One of the best EP guild was on another campaign because of the poor performances of Azura Star lately while another great EP guild was not running a group. We lost everything at primetime with near of no resistance. When the first EP guild who was rolling on another campaign came back to Azura Star late during the night, all the DC guilds who were farming pugs around the EP home tri-keeps instantly logged off. lol

You have your facts twisted here, we told them we were done for the night and all but about 6 of us logged, then they came back and pvdoor'd an emp. We didn't log cause they came back, they came back when we logged.

Ezareth

I don't believe ball groups are the cause of lag, they only (noticeably) add to it.

I mentioned in another thread that I was dueling at 5AM EST the other night with zero activity on the map and the responsiveness of the game was still garbage. Something under the hood is broken.

Zergs and ball groups have *always* caused some measure of lag but thinking that everyone just spreading out would make the game run smooth is naive.

Satiar

Elong wrote: »

Sad to see this thread take another negative spin. I always log in late at night due to my timezone, and Haxus had had enough of the lag in AZ from all accounts, but were preparing to jump back in after it had settled down. You can't blame people for being frustrated at the lag.

Sad to see some EP called out by "elitists" in zone chat, just ignore them, we really want coordination, and EP played fantastically to get a late night (server time) Emp push. Some of these people you consider elitists are nobodies FYI, pay them no attention. Although Daniel had pulled out at that stage, I hope it's a moral boost for EP and we can have many more nights like that.

That late night emp push was one of the silliest things I've seen in months. You owned nothing but Farragut and Kingscrest and I found you farming yellow at Alessia farm. This might be a prime example of why people think your map priorities are all screwed up.

That you waited until all competition had retired for the evening to PvDoor the map in under an hour was lame. If I hadn't gotten back into Azuras and gotten 6-8 people together you would have taken the scrolls too.