Tank PSA - You're Nerfed Again: UPDATE 2 - Now Unerfed!

Personofsecrets

hrothbern wrote: »

BTW
Has Vet Maelstrom already been finished by a S&B tank?

I will be the first.

dodgehopper_ESO

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

hmm, this explains a few things, I felt like my stamina is always gone, and my tank has had trouble keeping stamina up despite workarounds to the previous gutting.

at this point its just getting ***, remove blocking from the game then, that seems to be your goal, this is F'ing stupid.

They really, really, want us to use fully charged heavy attacks and it just isn't going to happen.

Maybe if heavy armor and shields actually made us tanky enough to eat the damage that was coming in, we would be able to heavy attack. I would love it if tanking were a 'mostly-mouse' kind of experience, and if they gave us weapon combinations (on the mouse) it would be even cooler.

Valen_Byte

Zo$...why don't you just take blocking out all together? I mean, that's almost where we are now anyway.

Personofsecrets

I just want to thank everyone who has posted and contributed ideas so far.

Thank you.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

I feel confident that this is a bug, and that it is likely tied to the current wonkiness of damage calculations and resource regen/management, as well as the old thread from IC launch about Kagnerac's Hope set not providing mitigation.

Seems like some weird things are going on beneath the surface that are hard to pin down, but are nonetheless creating havoc for players at endgame.

tinythinker

Personofsecrets wrote: »

No matter how hard you try @ZOS_RichLambert and @zos_ericwrobel, I am not going to use fully charged heavy attacks. Keep on nerfing, it aint happening.

What if 5 pcs or more of heavy had a passive that procced Major Force (increases critical damage amounts by 40%) and either Major Intellect (increases magicka recovery by 30%) or Major Endurance (increases stamina recovery by 30%) with fully charged heavy attack depending on the weapon used? Would that sell you on it?

Personofsecrets

tinythinker wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

No matter how hard you try @ZOS_RichLambert and @zos_ericwrobel, I am not going to use fully charged heavy attacks. Keep on nerfing, it aint happening.

What if 5 pcs or more of heavy had a passive that procced Major Force (increases critical damage amounts by 40%) and either Major Intellect (increases magicka recovery by 30%) or Major Endurance (increases stamina recovery by 30%) with fully charged heavy attack depending on the weapon used? Would that sell you on it?

I don't think so. The disincentive of dying to one shots is pretty high up there.

tinythinker

Personofsecrets wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

No matter how hard you try @ZOS_RichLambert and @zos_ericwrobel, I am not going to use fully charged heavy attacks. Keep on nerfing, it aint happening.

What if 5 pcs or more of heavy had a passive that procced Major Force (increases critical damage amounts by 40%) and either Major Intellect (increases magicka recovery by 30%) or Major Endurance (increases stamina recovery by 30%) with fully charged heavy attack depending on the weapon used? Would that sell you on it?

I don't think so. The disincentive of dying to one shots is pretty high up there.

What if Major Protection (reduces damage taken by 30%) was swapped in for Major Force (with the recovery buffs the same)?

Personofsecrets

tinythinker wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

No matter how hard you try @ZOS_RichLambert and @zos_ericwrobel, I am not going to use fully charged heavy attacks. Keep on nerfing, it aint happening.

What if 5 pcs or more of heavy had a passive that procced Major Force (increases critical damage amounts by 40%) and either Major Intellect (increases magicka recovery by 30%) or Major Endurance (increases stamina recovery by 30%) with fully charged heavy attack depending on the weapon used? Would that sell you on it?

I don't think so. The disincentive of dying to one shots is pretty high up there.

What if Major Protection (reduces damage taken by 30%) was swapped in for Major Force (with the recovery buffs the same)?

Hypothetically I could be given 10 million gold every time that I use a fully charged heavy attack and yea, that would probably break my will. Not only do I think that such mechanics wouldn't happen, but I also believe that what prevent such mechanics being implemented in the first place (better incentives for heavy attack mechanics) is the developers overestimation of how valuable fully charged heavy attacks are.

tinythinker

Personofsecrets wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

No matter how hard you try @ZOS_RichLambert and @zos_ericwrobel, I am not going to use fully charged heavy attacks. Keep on nerfing, it aint happening.

What if 5 pcs or more of heavy had a passive that procced Major Force (increases critical damage amounts by 40%) and either Major Intellect (increases magicka recovery by 30%) or Major Endurance (increases stamina recovery by 30%) with fully charged heavy attack depending on the weapon used? Would that sell you on it?

I don't think so. The disincentive of dying to one shots is pretty high up there.

What if Major Protection (reduces damage taken by 30%) was swapped in for Major Force (with the recovery buffs the same)?

Hypothetically I could be given 10 million gold every time that I use a fully charged heavy attack and yea, that would probably break my will. Not only do I think that such mechanics wouldn't happen, but I also believe that what prevent such mechanics being implemented in the first place (better incentives for heavy attack mechanics) is the developers overestimation of how valuable fully charged heavy attacks are.

That's what I was getting at. Fully charged heavy attacks just don't offer enough to a tank. They would need to be worth the risk. Even for a DPS, who wants to take that long for one attack? I will do them with a resto staff on my healer, but that's about it. Maybe a DK with a heavy attack spec might use one, but generally, it's a big risk for an inadequate reward.

Timeetyo

Personofsecrets wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

No matter how hard you try @ZOS_RichLambert and @zos_ericwrobel, I am not going to use fully charged heavy attacks. Keep on nerfing, it aint happening.

What if 5 pcs or more of heavy had a passive that procced Major Force (increases critical damage amounts by 40%) and either Major Intellect (increases magicka recovery by 30%) or Major Endurance (increases stamina recovery by 30%) with fully charged heavy attack depending on the weapon used? Would that sell you on it?

I don't think so. The disincentive of dying to one shots is pretty high up there.

What if Major Protection (reduces damage taken by 30%) was swapped in for Major Force (with the recovery buffs the same)?

Hypothetically I could be given 10 million gold every time that I use a fully charged heavy attack and yea, that would probably break my will. Not only do I think that such mechanics wouldn't happen, but I also believe that what prevent such mechanics being implemented in the first place (better incentives for heavy attack mechanics) is the developers overestimation of how valuable fully charged heavy attacks are.

To me is not that they over value fully charged heavy attacks...it is that they design fights where it is rarely worth the risk to actually do a fully charged heavy attack as a tank.

Starshadw

Personofsecrets wrote: »

They really, really, want us to use fully charged heavy attacks and it just isn't going to happen.

I think, sadly, that this is due to the prevailing idea in the game that faster/animation canceling/macroing/pounding keys is best. Which, unfortunately, is only exacerbated by the fact that ZOS designed their dungeons and "raids" (I don't actually consider the trials to be raids) to be sped through. This results in people wanting their characters to move faster because that translates to more dps in their minds (whether it's true or not doesn't even matter in this case - we're talking about how it feels to watch your character on screen). The heavy attack is a slow attack - literally and figuratively. Watching it makes you feel as though your character is "wasting time" because he/she isn't pounding away at the mob.

It's sad, because I don't think I've ever had the pleasure of going through a dungeon/trial where the group wasn't rushing as much as possible - because speed counts in scoring. I wish they'd add in more benefits to slowing down and looking around as you complete dungeons/trials. IE, bonus treasure if you kill every mob (much like they now have the bonus if you kill every boss) - hide more treasure chests in the dungeons, or other little fun things and bonuses.

If ZOS wants folks to use heavy attacks to recharge stamina, they need to rethink how they are designing their content because right now, heavy attacks "feel" too slow for most people to want to use them.

Personofsecrets

Timeetyo wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

No matter how hard you try @ZOS_RichLambert and @zos_ericwrobel, I am not going to use fully charged heavy attacks. Keep on nerfing, it aint happening.

What if 5 pcs or more of heavy had a passive that procced Major Force (increases critical damage amounts by 40%) and either Major Intellect (increases magicka recovery by 30%) or Major Endurance (increases stamina recovery by 30%) with fully charged heavy attack depending on the weapon used? Would that sell you on it?

I don't think so. The disincentive of dying to one shots is pretty high up there.

What if Major Protection (reduces damage taken by 30%) was swapped in for Major Force (with the recovery buffs the same)?

Hypothetically I could be given 10 million gold every time that I use a fully charged heavy attack and yea, that would probably break my will. Not only do I think that such mechanics wouldn't happen, but I also believe that what prevent such mechanics being implemented in the first place (better incentives for heavy attack mechanics) is the developers overestimation of how valuable fully charged heavy attacks are.

To me is not that they over value fully charged heavy attacks...it is that they design fights where it is rarely worth the risk to actually do a fully charged heavy attack as a tank.

I've even run into the issue of being constantly engaged with using abilities. Last night I was juggling Corrosive Armor, Dragon Blood, Heroic Slash, Circle of Protection, and Pierce Armor while keeping Earthen Heart abilities used for stamina regeneration. There was not two seconds, especially not 2 seconds that would align with Mantikora down time, for me to use a full charged heavy attack during. Fully charged heavy attacks are not only risky, but also inefficient.

tinythinker

Starshadw wrote: »

The heavy attack is a slow attack - literally and figuratively. Watching it makes you feel as though your character is "wasting time" because he/she isn't pounding away at the mob.

It's sad, because I don't think I've ever had the pleasure of going through a dungeon/trial where the group wasn't rushing as much as possible - because speed counts in scoring. I wish they'd add in more benefits to slowing down and looking around as you complete dungeons/trials. IE, bonus treasure if you kill every mob (much like they now have the bonus if you kill every boss) - hide more treasure chests in the dungeons, or other little fun things and bonuses.

If ZOS wants folks to use heavy attacks to recharge stamina, they need to rethink how they are designing their content because right now, heavy attacks "feel" too slow for most people to want to use them.

^^^
The dungeon/trial team needs to read this. Rich or Gina or Jason or Jessica or Kai or someone else from ZOS who posts on the forums needs to acknowledge this with a dev tracker tag and forward the link to the right people. I am all for the speed achievements but what about some that also go the other way?

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I've even run into the issue of being constantly engaged with using abilities. Last night I was juggling Corrosive Armor, Dragon Blood, Heroic Slash, Circle of Protection, and Pierce Armor while keeping Earthen Heart abilities used for stamina regeneration. There was not two seconds, especially not 2 seconds that would align with Mantikora down time, for me to use a full charged heavy attack during. Fully charged heavy attacks are not only risky, but also inefficient.

Yeah, that's why a 5+ piece heavy bonus to FCHAs, something clever (my initial suggestions were just quick random thoughts), needs to be added if this is the course ZOS wants to go, with "dynamic tanking" = FCHAs. Something that makes it worth the risk and useful in a boss fight. I guess stunning "unstunnable" bosses every so often or having a huge frontal conal AoE style burst for trash mobs would be too much to ask but I am sure tanks have lots of things they could put on a potential wish list.

Hmm...

Using spoiler tags to keep the scannable portion of the comment short. So, maybe this for 5+ pcs of heavy for tanky types?

FCHA --> conal attack with damage boost, triggers Major Protection (reduces damage taken by 30%) and either Major Intellect (increases magicka recovery by 30%) or Major Endurance (increases stamina recovery by 30%) for 10 or 12 seconds. Or maybe give both recovery buffs. Still working on this part.

So:
1. FCHA with large damage in a frontal cone against mobs or a boss (would help to have someone cast a shield or burst help with this) and get 30% (maybe 35%?) of Max Stamina back.
2. Block, cast AoE, taunt, etc. for 10-12 seconds while the damage reduction/resource recovery buffs are going.
3. Repeat steps one and two.

In PvP this would still be unwise as you would leave yourself wide open to CC and weaved attacks, for PvE it would make the nerfs to blocking/stam recovery less severe while still encouraging FCHAs.

Teargrants

I believe this is an unintended oversight. If everyone recalls, back on PTS there was a big issue with ALL costs being 30% higher than they should, including abilities, block, dodge - literally everything. ZOS claimed they fixed the issue. Obviously they didn't, and here we are stuck with the block cost still erroneously costing more.

What this means is that there was a known bug, a fix was tested and implemented for the bug, and that fix was not itself properly tested to make sure it actually fixed what it was supposed to fix. It's particularly vexing in this case considering the testing would simply involve testing that the base cost values for abilities, dodge roll, and block were in fact correct. One is left to infer that block was simply not tested.

Personofsecrets

I would like an ability to passively buff my teammates. Light armor has spell power cure, medium armor has powerful assault, and heavy armor has what exactly? It is time to update the sword and board passive line and time to rollback nerfs.

Personofsecrets

Teargrants wrote: »

I believe this is an unintended oversight. If everyone recalls, back on PTS there was a big issue with ALL costs being 30% higher than they should, including abilities, block, dodge - literally everything. ZOS claimed they fixed the issue. Obviously they didn't, and here we are stuck with the block cost still erroneously costing more.

What this means is that there was a known bug, a fix was tested and implemented for the bug, and that fix was not itself properly tested to make sure it actually fixed what it was supposed to fix. It's particularly vexing in this case considering the testing would simply involve testing that the base cost values for abilities, dodge roll, and block were in fact correct. One is left to infer that block was simply not tested.

Thank you much for posting @Teargrants . I didn't realize there was the 30% increase that you claim and that could go to show why we now have this block cost increase.

We also still have the bug of casting an ability or block multiple times in sequence turning of stamina regeneration and the bug of pressing spring in a certain way causing a bar lock. All of these things were also supposedly fixed, but they still are occurring @ZOS_GinaBruno .

Edit:

No surprise if block wasn't tested.

Shadesofkin

There have been some well reasoned arguments for why this is likely an oversight/bug, I really hope these turn out to be gospel, because I don't think I can take anymore tank nerfs. I *want* to use heavy attacks now and again too, but the hardest dungeons (and certainly the trials) don't allow for it. Besides that, the Sword and Shield skill line is designed entirely around a defensive playstyle that assumes blocking and I just can't take having more skill lines that I have no need/desire/reason to use at this point. I already actively ignore skills that are easy to consider useless (blockade for instance).

Ariisen

Good luck heavy attacking Molag Kena HM lol

Shadesofkin

Ariisen wrote: »

Good luck heavy attacking Molag Kena HM lol

Exactly, or the Warrior if he slips into the blue (though really he shouldn't) or The Mantikkora or the Serpent.

Bashev

I have the feeling that ZoS will increase the cost of all skills with 30% in order to balance the CP and make resource management important again. I also think that they will unnerf the block and roll dodge nerfs. I guess that is why the bug with the stamina regen appeared, probably they already started to work on the code and just forgot to comment some snippets of it.

Personofsecrets

Bashev wrote: »

I have the feeling that ZoS will increase the cost of all skills with 30% in order to balance the CP and make resource management important again. I also think that they will unnerf the block and roll dodge nerfs. I guess that is why the bug with the stamina regen appeared, probably they already started to work on the code and just forgot to comment some snippets of it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but @Teargrants , this 30% increase was supposed to be fixed, correct? Was it fixed for anything? I'm really not super familiar about how this was occurring on the PTS.

rogueslayer

Nice its already hard to find a tank to run anything and friends who tank are overwhelmed with requsts OH WELL

Nebthet78

Teargrants wrote: »

I believe this is an unintended oversight. If everyone recalls, back on PTS there was a big issue with ALL costs being 30% higher than they should, including abilities, block, dodge - literally everything. ZOS claimed they fixed the issue. Obviously they didn't, and here we are stuck with the block cost still erroneously costing more.

What this means is that there was a known bug, a fix was tested and implemented for the bug, and that fix was not itself properly tested to make sure it actually fixed what it was supposed to fix. It's particularly vexing in this case considering the testing would simply involve testing that the base cost values for abilities, dodge roll, and block were in fact correct. One is left to infer that block was simply not tested.

I totally forgot about this bug from a while ago.. (kinda proves they don't update DLC being worked on with important patches before releasing them).

I think you may be on to something because the resources being used does feel like it is around 30% more than normal. Especially on high resource cost skills.

I have also encountered the Random Dismounting Bug in Orsinium as well and I think that issue happened at the same time the original 30% bug did.

LadyNalcarya

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Fully charged heavy attacks are not only risky, but also inefficient.

I agree.
Its usually too risky and sometimes even impossible to do (for example when you're tanking 3 axes, they will kill a fool who tries to heavy attack them before he can charge said attack). And stamina return is too low to be worth in on easy bosses.
I think that no regen when blocking was harsh enough. It already makes non-templar healers much less viable ("no shards for a tank=gtfo in most cases") and limits tanking builds.

Teargrants

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

I have the feeling that ZoS will increase the cost of all skills with 30% in order to balance the CP and make resource management important again. I also think that they will unnerf the block and roll dodge nerfs. I guess that is why the bug with the stamina regen appeared, probably they already started to work on the code and just forgot to comment some snippets of it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but @Teargrants , this 30% increase was supposed to be fixed, correct? Was it fixed for anything? I'm really not super familiar about how this was occurring on the PTS.

It was fixed for abilities as far as I can tell, I'm pretty sure for dodge roll as well - but as we see, clearly not for block. Someone should probably also test for bash and cc break.

Personofsecrets

Teargrants wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

I have the feeling that ZoS will increase the cost of all skills with 30% in order to balance the CP and make resource management important again. I also think that they will unnerf the block and roll dodge nerfs. I guess that is why the bug with the stamina regen appeared, probably they already started to work on the code and just forgot to comment some snippets of it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but @Teargrants , this 30% increase was supposed to be fixed, correct? Was it fixed for anything? I'm really not super familiar about how this was occurring on the PTS.

It was fixed for abilities as far as I can tell, I'm pretty sure for dodge roll as well - but as we see, clearly not for block. Someone should probably also test for bash and cc break.

I would test those, but have no idea what the original values may have been.

Teargrants

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

I have the feeling that ZoS will increase the cost of all skills with 30% in order to balance the CP and make resource management important again. I also think that they will unnerf the block and roll dodge nerfs. I guess that is why the bug with the stamina regen appeared, probably they already started to work on the code and just forgot to comment some snippets of it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but @Teargrants , this 30% increase was supposed to be fixed, correct? Was it fixed for anything? I'm really not super familiar about how this was occurring on the PTS.

It was fixed for abilities as far as I can tell, I'm pretty sure for dodge roll as well - but as we see, clearly not for block. Someone should probably also test for bash and cc break.

I would test those, but have no idea what the original values may have been.

See that's what ZOS is banking on with their QA philosophy: "if it's broke but no one can prove it everything's fine."

Orchish

Waiting on a dev response I understand it's Sunday so i shall check back in tomorrow.

Personofsecrets

Orchish wrote: »

Waiting on a dev response I understand it's Sunday so i shall check back in tomorrow.

Thank you for posting that. Maybe @ZOS_GinaBruno will be working tomorrow and able to fill the community in on whats going on.