Tank PSA - You're Nerfed Again: UPDATE 2 - Now Unerfed!

whsprwind

Starshadw wrote: »

whsprwind wrote: »

Teiji wrote: »

I don't agree that a gamer developer should be pro-level ability when it comes to playing. Remember, they work full-time making the game, they don't have hours upon hours like some of you folks do, to become experts.

I do agree that everyone working to develop a game should play their game. Someone who is crafting PvE content should be playing it, someone crafting dungeons/trials should be running through said dungeons/trials, someone working on PvP should be PvPing, etc.

Completing blackheart haven is hardly pro-level ability expectation.

I'm not suggesting that he's bad at his work, in fact he is probably an ace programmer which is how he achieved his position on the team. All i meant to say is that the combat mechanics design changes - some have been good but some really questionable. The patch they made static ult generation along with all the skill changes - those were really questionable, to me at least.

And yes, i have believe developers themselves play their own game, they're aware of the issues but just haven't figured out a way to solve them properly. Althought if I were a developer on their team I'd at least be more responsive to questions and feedback on forums which seems to me is a taboo in their studio

Scyantific

whsprwind wrote: »

Starshadw wrote: »

whsprwind wrote: »

Teiji wrote: »

I don't agree that a gamer developer should be pro-level ability when it comes to playing. Remember, they work full-time making the game, they don't have hours upon hours like some of you folks do, to become experts.

I do agree that everyone working to develop a game should play their game. Someone who is crafting PvE content should be playing it, someone crafting dungeons/trials should be running through said dungeons/trials, someone working on PvP should be PvPing, etc.

Completing blackheart haven is hardly pro-level ability expectation.

I'm not suggesting that he's bad at his work, in fact he is probably an ace programmer which is how he achieved his position on the team. All i meant to say is that the combat mechanics design changes - some have been good but some really questionable. The patch they made static ult generation along with all the skill changes - those were really questionable, to me at least.

And yes, i have believe developers themselves play their own game, they're aware of the issues but just haven't figured out a way to solve them properly. Althought if I were a developer on their team I'd at least be more responsive to questions and feedback on forums which seems to me is a taboo in their studio

Doesn't matter if he's an ace programmer. He's a terribad designer who clearly doesn't play the same game as the rest of the userbase.

No smart combat designer would have nerfed blocking the way he and his team did.

whsprwind

Scyantific wrote: »

whsprwind wrote: »

Starshadw wrote: »

whsprwind wrote: »

Teiji wrote: »

Doesn't matter if he's an ace programmer. He's a terribad designer who clearly doesn't play the same game as the rest of the userbase.

No smart combat designer would have nerfed blocking the way he and his team did.

no doubt on that.. In fact it seems so suspiciously bad that I'm inclined to believe it's a bug instead and not actually an intended nerf.

I have an gut feeling that this figure change is related to the guild bank bug. Perhaps a recent data migration, change in schema or somethin of that sort that messed up some data figures. Just my wild guess

b92303008rwb17_ESO

whsprwind wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

whsprwind wrote: »

Starshadw wrote: »

whsprwind wrote: »

Teiji wrote: »

Doesn't matter if he's an ace programmer. He's a terribad designer who clearly doesn't play the same game as the rest of the userbase.

No smart combat designer would have nerfed blocking the way he and his team did.

no doubt on that.. In fact it seems so suspiciously bad that I'm inclined to believe it's a bug instead and not actually an intended nerf.

I have an gut feeling that this figure change is related to the guild bank bug. Perhaps a recent data migration, change in schema or somethin of that sort that messed up some data figures. Just my wild guess

If it's a bug and given it is a bug of such magnitude but they did not manage to fix it right away or not even after today's maintenance, then it probably means they haven't figure out the solution and chances are it is going to stay for a while like loading screen.

LadyNalcarya

b92303008rwb17_ESO wrote: »

If it's a bug and given it is a bug of such magnitude but they did not manage to fix it right away or not even after today's maintenance, then it probably means they haven't figure out the solution and chances are it is going to stay for a while like loading screen.

In this case, they can simply remove that "no regen while blocking" thing while they're looking for the solution.

Shadesofkin

nothing mentioned in patch notes that I could see.

Divinecrash

So I'm brand new to ESO; just started a little over a week ago.
I've loved playing the tank role in many other MMOs over the years and heard that tanking in ESO is very different, so I was excited to give it a try.
I'm a little over lvl 20 and been enjoying the experience so far, but I've read a lot about tank nerfs and how terrible they are in their current state.
Am I screwing myself over going tank for my first character?

Scyantific

Welp. Sap-tanks got another nerf.

Path of Darkness and Veil of Blades will have reduced ticks on their DoT effect.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Scyantific wrote: »

Welp. Sap-tanks got another nerf.

Path of Darkness and Veil of Blades will have reduced ticks on their DoT effect.

Actually, that is incorrect. Neither of those 2 abilities proc, or have ever procc'd, SA on subsequent ticks, only on the first "hits" upon casting. Caltrops still procs SA, even though they said it no longer counts as a melee attack.

I am worried that this change will have negative impacts despite their saying otherwise. Just frustrating they don't say what the new DoT intervals are. Unless there was some serious issue going on that I've never experienced or heard about, changing these abilities less about as good of a performance fix as removing the deer from Cyrodiil.

Shadesofkin

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

Welp. Sap-tanks got another nerf.

Path of Darkness and Veil of Blades will have reduced ticks on their DoT effect.

Actually, that is incorrect. Neither of those 2 abilities proc, or have ever procc'd, SA on subsequent ticks, only on the first "hits" upon casting. Caltrops still procs SA, even though they said it no longer counts as a melee attack.

I am worried that this change will have negative impacts despite their saying otherwise. Just frustrating they don't say what the new DoT intervals are. Unless there was some serious issue going on that I've never experienced or heard about, changing these abilities less about as good of a performance fix as removing the deer from Cyrodiil.

Yeah, I saw Eruption on there and couldn't fathom how changing it would "improve" anything at all. I fully admit, I don't do programming, but it seemed to be a perfectly functioning ability to me last night.

LadyNalcarya

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

Welp. Sap-tanks got another nerf.

Path of Darkness and Veil of Blades will have reduced ticks on their DoT effect.

Actually, that is incorrect. Neither of those 2 abilities proc, or have ever procc'd, SA on subsequent ticks, only on the first "hits" upon casting. Caltrops still procs SA, even though they said it no longer counts as a melee attack.

I am worried that this change will have negative impacts despite their saying otherwise. Just frustrating they don't say what the new DoT intervals are. Unless there was some serious issue going on that I've never experienced or heard about, changing these abilities less about as good of a performance fix as removing the deer from Cyrodiil.

No, twisting path procs siphoning attacks pretty often.
Or I guess its better to say "it used to proc it pretty often".

Venomback

I have noticed that my magicka regen does not seem to work properly either. Unfortunately, I haven't yet determined why. My regen is at 1800 ( 100 points into champion for regen, 45 into lower cost ), two pieces of gear have magicka recovery...all golded V16.

Timed my regen with another magicka Templar, attacking same boss and his regen was faster by a lot with less regen...his was at 1200. We both cast nothing but Puncturing Sweeps until boss was dead.

The other templar had more recovery on his gear than I did. So, my currently belief is that it may be the champion points are not applying the regen and are only showing the number the regen should be at.

WolfingHour

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

Welp. Sap-tanks got another nerf.

Path of Darkness and Veil of Blades will have reduced ticks on their DoT effect.

Actually, that is incorrect. Neither of those 2 abilities proc, or have ever procc'd, SA on subsequent ticks, only on the first "hits" upon casting. Caltrops still procs SA, even though they said it no longer counts as a melee attack.

I am worried that this change will have negative impacts despite their saying otherwise. Just frustrating they don't say what the new DoT intervals are. Unless there was some serious issue going on that I've never experienced or heard about, changing these abilities less about as good of a performance fix as removing the deer from Cyrodiil.

No, twisting path procs siphoning attacks pretty often.
Or I guess its better to say "it used to proc it pretty often".

Can confirm twisting is working on multiple ticks. Tested it this weekend.

Personofsecrets

shugg wrote: »

Im suprised no update on this... Not looking forward to it on ps4, tankings already alot of bar watching

@ZOS_GinaBruno has probably only been at work for a few hours now. It is possible that we could get an update. If this thread lasts another2 days without a response, then that is were I personally would think that no update will be given.

Personofsecrets

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

The fundamental problem with designing around champion points is that not everyone has 300 or 400 to throw at the system. What do you tell a new customer working on their first character? First you have to grind to V16, then you have to grind for crafted gear, then you have to grind to max CP BEFORE you can start to do vet dungeons... which you'll only want to do to grind for monster sets?

And since questing and playing through with a tanky build takes at least twice as long as a DPS build, why would anyone build a tank character now?

Yeah... In my opinion, cps should be just an addition for the build, not a requirement.
And if its true and they actually want us to spend 100 cps in block cost reduction... Well, I have enough cps for that, but what about new players? A person who doesnt have enough cps (or any cps if they just started) and good crafted gear just wont be able to tank properly. And its absolutely awful because an mmo needs to be attractive for new players and encourage them to play. Having to grind to max level, then grind cps, monster sets and mats just to have a chance is not fair or encouraging.

It is also awful because that particular cp passive (block cost reduction) has some of the most horrid diminished returns in the game.

EDIT:

Good job night crew.

Hateanthem

Patch notes are out. Very vague and somewhat incomplete patch notes, but they are out. No mention of increased block cost.

"We fixed several bugs causing crashes". Which ones? This game crashes all the time for more than a few reasons. Could you know...take a few minutes and let us know which bugs are fixed. That way some poor person doesn't crash, rage on the forums, and get brow beaten by those who somehow know which bugs are fixed. Not all of us are programmers or super super computer savvy. A little info goes a long way.

Still no response even when they have been commenting on other threads. Mostly they seem to only comment when there is praise for them, or to give warnings when people don't speak kindly of them. They sure do have the time to post animal memes though. Cute pics but it makes me think the priorities of ZOS is to maintain status quo. They act like we are the T-Rex from Jurassic Park. " If we don't move or do anything it'll go away!"

I'm guessing it is a ninja nerf. Going to take the afternoon and decide if this game is actually worth the money investment.

And another thing I just noticed... If on your website you are going to give "A Million Reasons to Play...", don't quote your devs or art team. "You will get lost in our world..." Really? I'm pretty sure the art department for an 8-bit Mario game in 2015 would say the same thing if they thought it would attract people. I mean the world does look great, but I don't care what your art department says. I'll take the word of the people playing before the word of a guy who's career depends on it. Just my thoughts.

Or are there not enough people actually giving reasons so you just had to fill it in?

heystreethawk

Soriana wrote: »

I've been in since early beta and ran into exactly one tank that perma blocked in PVE; I am dumbfounded as to why such a sweeping change had to be made for one facet of the game. I saw the video of the 'unkillable' build and can totally understand why that would be frustrating in PVP for sure. Mantikora don't care 'bout no PVP and neither do axes! LOL

Just so you know, I don't think that any serious PvPer supported or advocated for the block change. I can't even think of a PvPer that I've seen express happiness about the change. Aside from extraordinary circumstances, including emperorships, people haven't been able to permablock since 1.6 while still doing enough damage to be frustrating in a fight.

That "Sheliza the Unkillable" guy might look impressive in his videos, if that's who you mean, but he's not taken seriously or considered to be a dangerous player. Someone mentioned Deltia too -- he does great work for the community at large, and has a knack for explaining things really well to people who are new to the game, but I don't think he postures himself as an expert PvPer or a voice of the PvP community or anything like that; I also think his comments on tanking were more geared toward PvE stuff.

Tanking in PvE can be frustrating now, and having the block cost bumped (if intentional) is completely ridiculous. I'm with you on that. But I haven't had any serious problems tanking vet pledges on my Nightblade or DK (I am sure it's a different situation with trials), because I can gear into the tank role without having to worry about doing any real damage. I have to worry about resource management, maintaining aggro, positioning myself and the enemies, keeping up defenses, etc, and my team has to worry about killing the stuff.

I can't do that in PvP, and I haven't been able to do it since 1.6. In a huge group, maybe you could play a tank; it still wouldn't be effective, and you wouldn't get much AP. In a small group, against unseasoned or unskilled players, you could play a tank while the rest of your crew murder the dummies trying to burn you down, but you can't bank on those conditions.

Against players of comparable skill, you need to keep the pressure up, and you need to be able to CC break every single time you get CCed. You can't do that while permablocking, and you haven't been able to since 1.6. For that reason, permablocking hasn't frustrated any seasoned PvPer in a very long time. Dangerous people don't do it; tanks are not priority targets. If you see someone in a group turtling up really effectively, you save them for last, because they won't be able to damage you while you wear down their resources.

The stam regen thing hasn't done anything to balance PvP, because blocking was never a source of imbalance, and permablockers only frustrated people who didn't know how to counter or ignore them. The way it stands now, you block very, very sparingly in PvP. You run out of stamina fast, and it's incredibly irritating. It's made raw damage output even more important than before, skewing the whole endeavor further towards a numbers game. I'm yammering on about this because I see a lot of people (not you specifically! You were perfectly courteous in your commentary) complaining about how this was a change that was implemented for the sake of PvPers, and that drives me crazy, because nobody in PvP wanted this to happen, and I really don't think anyone is happy about it.

People who don't play PvP act like all these bad decisions are done to cater to those of us who do, and it's truly not the case. I can't even remember the last time we got something we wanted.

XANTITHESISX

Also another thing I have noticed, when armor breaks now, you lose any enchantment and passive bonus you may have had on that piece of armor.

[/quote]

As it should

LadyNalcarya

heystreethawk wrote: »

Just so you know, I don't think that any serious PvPer supported or advocated for the block change. I can't even think of a PvPer that I've seen express happiness about the change. Aside from extraordinary circumstances, including emperorships, people haven't been able to permablock since 1.6 while still doing enough damage to be frustrating in a fight.

Same here. I've met a couple of people who though that stamina regen while blocking should be disabled in Cyro though.
But I've never ever seen a pve player who has a tanking experience and is happy about these changes. Though I know some people who respecced their tanks or quit the game because of it...

Personofsecrets

Thank you @heystreethawk for the balanced insight (which should be mandatory reading for @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert & @zos_OneWithNoForumAccount).

I will take at face value what you say about the PVP community. We do all have to remember that OneWithNoForumAccount mentioned PVP and PVE reasons for the nerf. I think why that gets forgotten is because, one, almost no PVE player benefited from being nerfed (only those that wanted to seek status as super good players that could do anything no matter what), so we jumped to conclusions and believed PVP players must have been to blame and because, two, the only pro-nerf sayers I remember when the nerf was being discussed appeared to be mostly PVP players.

I didn't realize that many PVP players never cared for the nerf, but I do think that most of those who are for the nerf, even if it is a minority of players, were and still are PVP players. What may be the most important thing though is your nuance that those who play PVP, but are happy with nerf, may have been those that didn't understand the tools that deal with permablocking.

It is really amazing to watch Shelzia and Sypher duke it out with DKs that are almost always blocking while doing some serious damage to each other and then see how an entire group can't kill one of them. That is quite a skill barrier.

NBrookus

Divinecrash wrote: »

Am I screwing myself over going tank for my first character?

Well, if you like running dungeons and can work around the nerfs, chances are as a tank you will never spend 30 minutes in zone chat begging for a group; you can take your pick of PUGs begging for you.

That said, non-vet dungeons can usually be handled with 3 DPS and a healer. But DPS' usually like having a tank around anyway, as it lets them focus on damage alone.

Hope499

Meh, if this is true I am done.

Only been running my tank lately as everyone else is a sorc or NB DPS....

Hateanthem

NBrookus wrote: »

Divinecrash wrote: »

Am I screwing myself over going tank for my first character?

Well, if you like running dungeons and can work around the nerfs, chances are as a tank you will never spend 30 minutes in zone chat begging for a group; you can take your pick of PUGs begging for you.

That said, non-vet dungeons can usually be handled with 3 DPS and a healer. But DPS' usually like having a tank around anyway, as it lets them focus on damage alone.

Ignoring bugs and nerfs, tanking is great for a first character in any MMO. You better like being considered a leader though. Because every pug or guild group you tank for will consider you the leader as soon as you step through the dungeon door.

When I first started playing MMOs as a DPS I never understood why tanks got irritated when I pulled too early, or backpedaled trying to get away from adds instead of running to the tank. Tanking cometely changes your perspective. You start thinking about mob placement, CC, paying attention to everyone's health bars, micro managing taunts, debuffs, buffs, whatnot. You start learning the names of all the spells hitting you.

I think tanking is fun. Currently in ESO I'm finding tanking difficult to enjoy. I hate having to ask for shards every 30 seconds, or watching my stamina bar go from full to empty in under 5 seconds when a mob starts ripping into me.

Telling my healer and dps "I got for nothing for a taunt bud, cc and run to me if you have to" over the last couple nights is somewhat depressing.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Teargrants wrote: »

I believe this is an unintended oversight. If everyone recalls, back on PTS there was a big issue with ALL costs being 30% higher than they should, including abilities, block, dodge - literally everything. ZOS claimed they fixed the issue. Obviously they didn't, and here we are stuck with the block cost still erroneously costing more.

What this means is that there was a known bug, a fix was tested and implemented for the bug, and that fix was not itself properly tested to make sure it actually fixed what it was supposed to fix. It's particularly vexing in this case considering the testing would simply involve testing that the base cost values for abilities, dodge roll, and block were in fact correct. One is left to infer that block was simply not tested.

Why not the moderators? Hang with me, this is a brilliant idea.

Since the moderators have to read all of these threads anyway (just to make sure we don't get too uppity), perhaps we can teach them proper QA procedures. Then they can apply for QA positions within ZOS. Its much easier to promote within than hire more QA.

So here is a basic introduction to QA procedures.

In companies where QA actually matters, (meaning people die, or millions of dollars are wasted if reported non-conformances are allowed to become field failures), this is the standard QA loop.



Notice the closed loop. You are not done once you isolate the problem and fix it. You need to retest and verify that the corrective action was effective. Often times you set up an additional check (usually 6 months from the fix, to again audit the process and determine whether the problem really was solved.

But even then, you are not done....

The best way to reduce errors like this and see which types of errors are the most frequent. This is where some statistical analysis comes into play.

Since launch we have see a lot of issues with tool tips, the cost of abilities, reductions not working correctly, etc. These can all be grouped together to determine why these types of problem keeps occurring.

This is usually done with 5 why analysis. The image below is a silly example, but often times, when you apply 5 why analysis, the resulting "root cause" is not the problem you think it was.



Why do the values for abilities constantly change every patch. Why do the tooltips report incorrect values? This is what needs to be determined to really solve this issue.

If only quality mattered in this industry like it does in every other one.

Orchish

Currently been stuck in a loading screen for the past 5 minutes so thought i'd check back. Confirmed as a bug yet? Surely has to be, the devs surely cannot be this incompetent. So many issues with this game leave me quite frustrated lately. I will enjoy my break when Fallout 4 releases and hopefully come back refreshed with this BUG patched by then.

robkrush

This latest nurf is a non-issue. Who has stamina to waste on blocking? The nurf to stam regen while blocking is the real issue. Seriously.

Orchish

That's why i am convinced this is a bug. With the block stam regen nerf there is absolutely no need to increase the cost of block at all.

Bashev

Orchish wrote: »

That's why i am convinced this is a bug. With the block stam regen nerf there is absolutely no need to increase the cost of block at all.

I think that it is not a bug. It is part of the new balance update which is coming. They just forgot to disable this part of the code and uploaded in live. It is not coincidence that in PTS all the skill cost were 30% higher. Probably this will go in live with the next patch. This will try to balance the CP and no resource management that we have. On top of that I really hope that they will unnerf the no stamina regen while blocking.

Personofsecrets

No confirmations yet @Orchish

Hateanthem

Bashev wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

That's why i am convinced this is a bug. With the block stam regen nerf there is absolutely no need to increase the cost of block at all.

I think that it is not a bug. It is part of the new balance update which is coming. They just forgot to disable this part of the code and uploaded in live. It is not coincidence that in PTS all the skill cost were 30% higher. Probably this will go in live with the next patch. This will try to balance the CP and no resource management that we have. On top of that I really hope that they will unnerf the no stamina regen while blocking.

This is the reason I hate systems like champion points, or systems where you can give little boosts to your character after level cap. It creates balancing nightmares. People will use the CP system as intended, which causes some to throw a huge fit because it counters them...then the "NURF BLOKS CUZ IT R HARD LOLZIES" type of people come out from under their rocks.

The "it are TES I get to play however I want and win just like skyrim!" people are literally the bane of this games existence. There will never be balance because of them. I'm so sick of reading "it a TES title its how it are be gurgle gurgle". Really? Last time I checked TES didn't have pvp.

It's an MMO in the ES setting. It has to be balanced. Quit changing this and stealth nerfing playstyles because Poindexter isn't smart enough to figure out animation cancelling, or because Gertrude the Oblivian Champion wants to "beat the game" like on ps3.