Tank PSA - You're Nerfed Again: UPDATE 2 - Now Unerfed!

whsprwind

Teiji wrote: »

So then why doesn't Eric Wrobel have a forum account to help clear up issues like this and communicate with us from time-to-time? We've practically already paid for him to have a forum account many times over.

Sometimes i wonder how the roles for "Lead * Developer" are chosen.

Remember the live episode when he tried to complete Blackheart haven (and failed) about a year ago?
You'd think for someone to be designing gameplay mechanics, he/she person should be somewhat outstanding at gameplay mechanics.

Personofsecrets

whsprwind wrote: »

Teiji wrote: »

So then why doesn't Eric Wrobel have a forum account to help clear up issues like this and communicate with us from time-to-time? We've practically already paid for him to have a forum account many times over.

Sometimes i wonder how the roles for "Lead * Developer" are chosen.

Remember the live episode when he tried to complete Blackheart haven (and failed) about a year ago?
You'd think for someone to be designing gameplay mechanics, he/she person should be somewhat outstanding at gameplay mechanics.

Man, that must have been a crazy hot air balloon ride of a dungeon run.

Usara

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Also another thing I have noticed, when armor breaks now, you lose any enchantment and passive bonus you may have had on that piece of armor.

It's been the case for something like more than a year.

Soriana

Late jumping in to this convo but wanted to let the ZOS team know that yet another tank has been waiting patiently for some kind of answer or fix or even to address there is an issue. Since Orsinium has dropped and the resource management bugs have been talked about, I haven't even loaded up my tank gear. Been running in my derpy DPS load out waiting for some kind of response.

Man I hope I don't have to scrap my tank and move to DPS. I am so horrible at it!

Van_0S

Nerf the Sorc!!!, they are so damn OP

Personofsecrets

Sorry Soriana. That is a tough spot that many people find themselves in.

Soriana

Yeah @Personofsecrets , it isn't the best of places to be in for sure. There are some of us who really, really enjoy running in, punching the boss in the nose, and seeing what he has to say back to us. It truly used to be fun before the stam regen while blocking nerf; I am not now nor have I ever been a perma block tank. I CC'd, I interrupted, I taunted, I mitigated, I saved healers and dps from random mob attacks. It really was a blast! But now I find myself watching the little green bar more than the mobs...and that to me just isn't much fun.

Personofsecrets

Soriana wrote: »

Yeah @Personofsecrets , it isn't the best of places to be in for sure. There are some of us who really, really enjoy running in, punching the boss in the nose, and seeing what he has to say back to us. It truly used to be fun before the stam regen while blocking nerf; I am not now nor have I ever been a perma block tank. I CC'd, I interrupted, I taunted, I mitigated, I saved healers and dps from random mob attacks. It really was a blast! But now I find myself watching the little green bar more than the mobs...and that to me just isn't much fun.

Yea, I really don't know how we didn't convince @ZOS_RichLambert and @zos_ericwrobel to back off. I think we were close, but someone with bigger connections must have been more convincing (pvp streamers)

Soriana

I've been in since early beta and ran into exactly one tank that perma blocked in PVE; I am dumbfounded as to why such a sweeping change had to be made for one facet of the game. I saw the video of the 'unkillable' build and can totally understand why that would be frustrating in PVP for sure. Mantikora don't care 'bout no PVP and neither do axes! LOL

hmr13.76preeb18_ESO

1. По какой то причине разработчики игры решили убить роль танка. 2. Они совершили очень серьезный промах с DK. (С чем это связанно можно только догадываться...) Яркий пример solo Арена. Арена это хороший тест эффективности класса в игре. РЕЗУЛЬТАТЫ ВЫ МОЖЕТЕ ПОСМОТРЕТЬ САМИ НА ДОСКЕ ЛИДЕРОВ В ИГРЕ . DK как класс мертв! Меня удивляет как долго убивали этот класс, причем абсолютно не обращали внимание на все доводы игроков DK НА ЭТОМ ФОРУМЕ. В команде людей работающих над игрой хорошие спецы работающие над графикой , я не могу сказать так же о людях работающий над УМЕНИЯМИ и балансом. И..на мой взгляд введение чемпионской системы в игру тоже ошибка..

hmr13.76preeb18_ESO

1. For some reason the game developers decided to kill the tank role. 2. They made a very serious mistake with DK. (What is the reason we can only guess...) a Vivid example of the solo arena. Arena is a good test of the efficiency class in the game. THE RESULTS YOU CAN SEE YOURSELF ON THE LEADER BOARD IN THE GAME . DK as a class is dead! I am surprised how long killed this class, and absolutely did not pay attention to all the arguments of the DK players ON THIS FORUM. In a team of people working on the game good specialists working on the graphics , I can't say the same about the people working on SKILLS and balance. And..in my opinion the introduction of the champion system to the game too.

Petros

I'm not at all surprised that no one from ZoS will or wont acknowledge this

Wing

Hey ZoS



the mob is still here looking for answers!

hrothbern

I have never done the full math between a tank build and a DPS build for a 1vs1 duel.
yet
and I will wait until at least the smoke is blown away of the current big bugs

but
assume one build does 12k outgoing DPS with 25% damage mitigation for 75% damage left
assume another build does 4k outgoing DPS with 75% damage mitigation for 25% damage left

For every combat round in 1vs1 duel
the DD gets 3k effective damage
the tank gets 3k effective damage
what's wrong with that??? the only thing really different compared to 2 DPS'rs duelling is that the TTK is higher...

And in PVE
fights with a tank will take more time as well, substantial more time..
What's wrong with that???

Is the nerfing of tanks because this is wrong???
Is the nerfing of tanks, because ZOS finds it too difficult to balance builds that are sooo different???
Is ZOS perhaps trying to do this balancing????

I really do not understand what is happening !
I thought we could build characters to our liking (within boundaries of overall balance)
But perhaps my assumed math is still too simple...

Islyn

Hateanthem wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

As healer, I noticed in VWGT and other stuff like VCOA certain bosses, I have had to throw a LOT more shards than before and our tanks have been getting hit harder, faster than before.

My healer was irritated that I had to ask for so many. I think he is having resource problems too because he usually makes it rain shards, but wa having trouble getting the magicka to do it.

For me I don't have resource issue but I also make it rain shards and I usually don't have to be asked...but in game I watched his health bar (this is one example) take a much harder pounding than I am used to seeing.

It made me go O.O for a sec there and also in the ts it was like 'shard, shard please, shard - wtf is going on? Shard?' and never had resource issues but we all had wtf issues, and I was asking did you get that, and that??

Was definitely weird.

Teiji

Soriana wrote: »

Yeah @Personofsecrets , it isn't the best of places to be in for sure. There are some of us who really, really enjoy running in, punching the boss in the nose, and seeing what he has to say back to us. It truly used to be fun before the stam regen while blocking nerf; I am not now nor have I ever been a perma block tank. I CC'd, I interrupted, I taunted, I mitigated, I saved healers and dps from random mob attacks. It really was a blast! But now I find myself watching the little green bar more than the mobs...and that to me just isn't much fun.

When I first started this game, healing and tanking as Dragonknight, even in the early levels was really fun. I liked how important it was to block only heavy & red attacks while doing constant damage, never hiding behind your shield like other MMO tanks because you can't do any damage at all. Not in ESO, you can use a solid 5 piece item set, then they introduced Blood Spawn so you can use your ultimate maybe one extra time per boss too!

It was great and engaging.

How is it our fault, the communities that a lot of new MMO players are a bit scared to do more than simply taunt and hide behind their shield?

So instead of going back over the game, maybe adjusting heavy armor passives, one hand and shield passives or maybe even an Undaunted ability where after 8 light attacks your next heavy attack does 200% more damage so even the new players can see these abilities and be like "Oh, this is very visible power that even a tank can use! I want to be more active in combat as a tank", then people get more confident in resource management and maybe even start out-DPSing new DPS players! But yeah, instead of incentivising this they simply gut stamina regeneration while blocking.

That really fills us with confidence.

Dakrana_Thrazvoth

Teargrants wrote: »

I believe this is an unintended oversight. If everyone recalls, back on PTS there was a big issue with ALL costs being 30% higher than they should, including abilities, block, dodge - literally everything. ZOS claimed they fixed the issue. Obviously they didn't, and here we are stuck with the block cost still erroneously costing more.

What this means is that there was a known bug, a fix was tested and implemented for the bug, and that fix was not itself properly tested to make sure it actually fixed what it was supposed to fix. It's particularly vexing in this case considering the testing would simply involve testing that the base cost values for abilities, dodge roll, and block were in fact correct. One is left to infer that block was simply not tested.

That's explain partially the ressources issue I've noticed (and many others players) since Orsinium. Thank you.

More details here :

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/228698/ressources-issues-with-the-last-patch/p1

Elara_Northwind

I am actually really relieved that other people are having this issue, because I thought it was me! I switched around a few of my champion points and realised that my magicka was draining really fast, when I have never really had any issues with it. I then switched my champion points back to where they were before as I assumed I must have messed them up somehow but nope... I am running out of magic MUCH faster than I ever have before...

NBrookus

Personofsecrets wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

2800 would fit very well with the 25% Block cost reduction of the CP tree
After the 25% reduction of 700 on 2800, the Block cost is 2100 almost the original 2160
So a tank is forced to waste 100 CP to get back what he had before the CP system

@Deltia made a similar point a while back about the stamina regeneration nerf. He said something along the lines of tanking was getting less fun because champion points was making tanking easier. I personally didn't feel that easier tanking would equal less fun tanking, but if we set that aside, then we run into the issue of why Deltia was thinking that tanking became easier.

The mechanic making tanking easier was champion points. The big thing I have to say about champion points though is that if we are all going to suffer nerfs due to have champion point, then there is no point in having the champion point system to begin with. There is no progression and, with the stamina regeneration nerf, particularly no progression with tanking. Every chance we get to earn champion points or strong gear is complimented by nerfs.

The fundamental problem with designing around champion points is that not everyone has 300 or 400 to throw at the system. What do you tell a new customer working on their first character? First you have to grind to V16, then you have to grind for crafted gear, then you have to grind to max CP BEFORE you can start to do vet dungeons... which you'll only want to do to grind for monster sets?

And since questing and playing through with a tanky build takes at least twice as long as a DPS build, why would anyone build a tank character now?

It's one thing to have harder dungeons that that fundamentally require more CP to complete for most players, it's another thing to make sweeping changes to resource management that affect everything in the game and assume CP allocation to "balance" it. I really hope ZOS isn't foolish enough to go down that path any farther.

Ahk1lleez

I think ZOS is basically trying to create another gold sink. By nerfing armor traits and enchantments on broken equipment and now the resources themselves they have effectively forced the players into regularly repairing equipment or finding/crafting new stuff and buying/crafting food, drinks and/or tri-pots .

It should be fixed...but until it is...I can see how demand might rise for food/drink/pots and am acting accordingly.

Vaelen

NBrookus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

2800 would fit very well with the 25% Block cost reduction of the CP tree
After the 25% reduction of 700 on 2800, the Block cost is 2100 almost the original 2160
So a tank is forced to waste 100 CP to get back what he had before the CP system

@Deltia made a similar point a while back about the stamina regeneration nerf. He said something along the lines of tanking was getting less fun because champion points was making tanking easier. I personally didn't feel that easier tanking would equal less fun tanking, but if we set that aside, then we run into the issue of why Deltia was thinking that tanking became easier.

The mechanic making tanking easier was champion points. The big thing I have to say about champion points though is that if we are all going to suffer nerfs due to have champion point, then there is no point in having the champion point system to begin with. There is no progression and, with the stamina regeneration nerf, particularly no progression with tanking. Every chance we get to earn champion points or strong gear is complimented by nerfs.

The fundamental problem with designing around champion points is that not everyone has 300 or 400 to throw at the system. What do you tell a new customer working on their first character? First you have to grind to V16, then you have to grind for crafted gear, then you have to grind to max CP BEFORE you can start to do vet dungeons... which you'll only want to do to grind for monster sets?

And since questing and playing through with a tanky build takes at least twice as long as a DPS build, why would anyone build a tank character now?

It's one thing to have harder dungeons that that fundamentally require more CP to complete for most players, it's another thing to make sweeping changes to resource management that affect everything in the game and assume CP allocation to "balance" it. I really hope ZOS isn't foolish enough to go down that path any farther.

ZOS should just remove tanks from the damn game already, and the DK class as well since many of it's passives and skills are based around tanking. Might as well get rid of healers too, and just rename the game Elder Wars 2...

Hateanthem

Ahk1lleez wrote: »

I think ZOS is basically trying to create another gold sink. By nerfing armor traits and enchantments on broken equipment and now the resources themselves they have effectively forced the players into regularly repairing equipment or finding/crafting new stuff and buying/crafting food, drinks and/or tri-pots .

It should be fixed...but until it is...I can see how demand might rise for food/drink/pots and am acting accordingly.

If you are playing in a group environment you need to make sure your gear is repaired, and you have the appropriate buffs whether there are any nerfs or not. No one minds a scrub playstyle as long as you keep it solo. The idea that ZOS is somehow forcing players to not be scrubs through game nerfs is.... Scrubish.

shugg

Im suprised no update on this... Not looking forward to it on ps4, tankings already alot of bar watching

LadyNalcarya

NBrookus wrote: »

The fundamental problem with designing around champion points is that not everyone has 300 or 400 to throw at the system. What do you tell a new customer working on their first character? First you have to grind to V16, then you have to grind for crafted gear, then you have to grind to max CP BEFORE you can start to do vet dungeons... which you'll only want to do to grind for monster sets?

And since questing and playing through with a tanky build takes at least twice as long as a DPS build, why would anyone build a tank character now?

Yeah... In my opinion, cps should be just an addition for the build, not a requirement.
And if its true and they actually want us to spend 100 cps in block cost reduction... Well, I have enough cps for that, but what about new players? A person who doesnt have enough cps (or any cps if they just started) and good crafted gear just wont be able to tank properly. And its absolutely awful because an mmo needs to be attractive for new players and encourage them to play. Having to grind to max level, then grind cps, monster sets and mats just to have a chance is not fair or encouraging.

Starshadw

whsprwind wrote: »

Teiji wrote: »

So then why doesn't Eric Wrobel have a forum account to help clear up issues like this and communicate with us from time-to-time? We've practically already paid for him to have a forum account many times over.

Sometimes i wonder how the roles for "Lead * Developer" are chosen.

Remember the live episode when he tried to complete Blackheart haven (and failed) about a year ago?
You'd think for someone to be designing gameplay mechanics, he/she person should be somewhat outstanding at gameplay mechanics.

I don't agree that a gamer developer should be pro-level ability when it comes to playing. Remember, they work full-time making the game, they don't have hours upon hours like some of you folks do, to become experts.

I do agree that everyone working to develop a game should play their game. Someone who is crafting PvE content should be playing it, someone crafting dungeons/trials should be running through said dungeons/trials, someone working on PvP should be PvPing, etc.

Joy_Division

hrothbern wrote: »

I have never done the full math between a tank build and a DPS build for a 1vs1 duel.
yet
and I will wait until at least the smoke is blown away of the current big bugs

but
assume one build does 12k outgoing DPS with 25% damage mitigation for 75% damage left
assume another build does 4k outgoing DPS with 75% damage mitigation for 25% damage left

For every combat round in 1vs1 duel
the DD gets 3k effective damage
the tank gets 3k effective damage
what's wrong with that??? the only thing really different compared to 2 DPS'rs duelling is that the TTK is higher...

And in PVE
fights with a tank will take more time as well, substantial more time..
What's wrong with that???

Is the nerfing of tanks because this is wrong???
Is the nerfing of tanks, because ZOS finds it too difficult to balance builds that are sooo different???
Is ZOS perhaps trying to do this balancing????

I really do not understand what is happening !
I thought we could build characters to our liking (within boundaries of overall balance)
But perhaps my assumed math is still too simple...

K.

My DPS sorc has 20K shields so your 4k DPS takes 5 global cooldowns to even start doing actual damage.
If you ever do manage to get me at half health (you won't) I blink away from you. Heal. Recast shield, and re-start the encounter.
To attain that mitigation, you have to hold down block, which means you aren't regening stamina.
When you run low on stamina or health - and you will - you die because you have no mobility.

b92303008rwb17_ESO

It's 10 AM on the East Coast now and there is still no official comments. The silence probably means nothing but the blocking cost now works as intended. Rejoice fellow tanks.

hrothbern

Joy_Division wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

I have never done the full math between a tank build and a DPS build for a 1vs1 duel.
yet
and I will wait until at least the smoke is blown away of the current big bugs

but
assume one build does 12k outgoing DPS with 25% damage mitigation for 75% damage left
assume another build does 4k outgoing DPS with 75% damage mitigation for 25% damage left

For every combat round in 1vs1 duel
the DD gets 3k effective damage
the tank gets 3k effective damage
what's wrong with that??? the only thing really different compared to 2 DPS'rs duelling is that the TTK is higher...

And in PVE
fights with a tank will take more time as well, substantial more time..
What's wrong with that???

Is the nerfing of tanks because this is wrong???
Is the nerfing of tanks, because ZOS finds it too difficult to balance builds that are sooo different???
Is ZOS perhaps trying to do this balancing????

I really do not understand what is happening !
I thought we could build characters to our liking (within boundaries of overall balance)
But perhaps my assumed math is still too simple...

K.

My DPS sorc has 20K shields so your 4k DPS takes 5 global cooldowns to even start doing actual damage.
If you ever do manage to get me at half health (you won't) I blink away from you. Heal. Recast shield, and re-start the encounter.
To attain that mitigation, you have to hold down block, which means you aren't regening stamina.
When you run low on stamina or health - and you will - you die because you have no mobility.

So
you support my opinion, if I read you well...

your comment is a reason all the more that builds dedicated to high mitigation, including blocking, do not pose a threat !!!

So...
If somebody likes to play such a build.... what is against it.... what is so wrong that ZOS is nerfing it???

Wifeaggro13

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tanking has been broken since Launch at first the role was DPS with a taunt for about 13 or 14 months. Part of the problem is ESO Development concepts were borked from the start. Firstly No tru aggro table or real aggro management removed one of the functions for the role. Secondly Pulling required no thought or strat . Pull one pull everything around it . the only real mechanic was block the big hit and hold the big boss. the rest of the role was DPS , CC was non existent or needed. they are one step away from GW2

LadyNalcarya

b92303008rwb17_ESO wrote: »

It's 10 AM on the East Coast now and there is still no official comments. The silence probably means nothing but the blocking cost now works as intended. Rejoice fellow tanks.

It might be, but I just don't want to believe.
I really love this game and I love tanking... It's so disheartening to see it ruined because its apparently "not fun".
Yeah... Its so much fun when you're searching for a tank for 2 hours... I couldnt do daily pledges with my dd simply because it was too hard to find a tank. As a tank, I was invited instantly.