Heavy armor needs buffed already.

Waseem

Item Trait Improvements
Item Traits have undergone revision to improve the viability and balance of each Trait. Some Traits have received complete redesigns, other Traits have gained new effects and bonuses, while some other Traits have simply received better number tuning.

Exploration: This trait now increases all gold gained from monster kills instead of increasing exploration experience gained, and has been renamed to Prosperous.
Impenetrable: This trait now also reduces the durability damage taken of the item, in addition to reducing the damage taken from Critical Hits.
Intricate: This trait now also increases the amount of refined materials you obtain whenever you deconstruct the armor, in addition to increasing the amount of inspiration gained.
Nirnhoned: This trait now increases Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by a flat value.
Sturdy: This trait now reduces the cost of Block.
Training: This trait now increases all experience gained from all kills by a percentage, instead of increasing your armor skill line experience only.
Well-fitted: This trait now also reduces the cost of Roll Dodge, in addition to reducing the cost of Sprint.

Jade1986

Waseem wrote: »

Item Trait Improvements
Item Traits have undergone revision to improve the viability and balance of each Trait. Some Traits have received complete redesigns, other Traits have gained new effects and bonuses, while some other Traits have simply received better number tuning.

Exploration: This trait now increases all gold gained from monster kills instead of increasing exploration experience gained, and has been renamed to Prosperous.
Impenetrable: This trait now also reduces the durability damage taken of the item, in addition to reducing the damage taken from Critical Hits.
Intricate: This trait now also increases the amount of refined materials you obtain whenever you deconstruct the armor, in addition to increasing the amount of inspiration gained.
Nirnhoned: This trait now increases Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by a flat value.
Sturdy: This trait now reduces the cost of Block.
Training: This trait now increases all experience gained from all kills by a percentage, instead of increasing your armor skill line experience only.
Well-fitted: This trait now also reduces the cost of Roll Dodge, in addition to reducing the cost of Sprint.

Joys, so I have to sacrifice crit resist for block cost reduction. Completely unnecessary.

Rylana

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

So shields balance was addressed in the shields not in HA
Nirnh9ne pens bslance addressed in nirnhoned not ha.
HA got a damage component psssive likely replacing a sustain ehich helps it support more roles, not just tanking.

Overall not bad. HA more versatile for a multitude of builds and more like the other armor types it must balance against.

Not a bad start, imo.

Yes not a bad start but tanks are meant to tank not deal damage as the new "wraith" skill is doing.

Heavy Armor does not mean Tank by default. Ive been running a HA based AoE DPS PvP spec, and an HA based unkillable healer for months. Both do their respective roles (damage and healing) quite well actually, the mitigation is just there for its intended purpose.

Too many minmaxers discard niche builds and must use cookie cutter cause someone told them to. And ye, my stuff works in Trials, too. Deal with it.

Yes yes yes hybrids and all but if some one is wearing full 7 pieces of HA you would assume they wanna take all the damage when they know they would most likely have to give up alot of their DPS. Not all of it but most of it. Yes this change is nice and over do but full metal plate armor should have the best defense and best mitigation.

Thats kind of the point though, the minmaxer assumption is the DPS loss is staggering, believe it or not its actually very very small. A full LA vs full HA damage dealer do not have that much of a different in raw output. Correct the sustain problem (as they have with the new PTS patch) and they come out about equal.

In fact the ONLY thing LA really gives enough of to matter over HA is crit for PvE and Spell pen for PvP, neither of which is actually a must-have.

Also remember they buffed LA and MA not that long ago to bring their resists up. Middle ground builds are becoming meta because of this, hell the prismatic enchantment was made for this playstyle. 5/1/1 HA undaunted maxed + prismatics, infused and impen = lord of the tank trolls in PvP right now. 18k stam on a 40k magicka build with almost 2k crit resist and 30k health, and the ability to throw 15k+ cyro heals and big damage dumps.

The translation to PvE is more complicated, more "intricate" one might say, as impen is useless as hell there, but toss on a magelight to make up for the crit loss without LA and its just GET IT ON.

Forestd16b14_ESO

laced wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

Item Trait Improvements
Item Traits have undergone revision to improve the viability and balance of each Trait. Some Traits have received complete redesigns, other Traits have gained new effects and bonuses, while some other Traits have simply received better number tuning.

Exploration: This trait now increases all gold gained from monster kills instead of increasing exploration experience gained, and has been renamed to Prosperous.
Impenetrable: This trait now also reduces the durability damage taken of the item, in addition to reducing the damage taken from Critical Hits.
Intricate: This trait now also increases the amount of refined materials you obtain whenever you deconstruct the armor, in addition to increasing the amount of inspiration gained.
Nirnhoned: This trait now increases Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by a flat value.
Sturdy: This trait now reduces the cost of Block.
Training: This trait now increases all experience gained from all kills by a percentage, instead of increasing your armor skill line experience only.
Well-fitted: This trait now also reduces the cost of Roll Dodge, in addition to reducing the cost of Sprint.

Joys, so I have to sacrifice crit resist for block cost reduction. Completely unnecessary.

Well Laced as some been saying baby steps after all this is just the start of PTS and the DLC comes out on May 31.

Rylana

laced wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

Item Trait Improvements
Item Traits have undergone revision to improve the viability and balance of each Trait. Some Traits have received complete redesigns, other Traits have gained new effects and bonuses, while some other Traits have simply received better number tuning.

Exploration: This trait now increases all gold gained from monster kills instead of increasing exploration experience gained, and has been renamed to Prosperous.
Impenetrable: This trait now also reduces the durability damage taken of the item, in addition to reducing the damage taken from Critical Hits.
Intricate: This trait now also increases the amount of refined materials you obtain whenever you deconstruct the armor, in addition to increasing the amount of inspiration gained.
Nirnhoned: This trait now increases Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by a flat value.
Sturdy: This trait now reduces the cost of Block.
Training: This trait now increases all experience gained from all kills by a percentage, instead of increasing your armor skill line experience only.
Well-fitted: This trait now also reduces the cost of Roll Dodge, in addition to reducing the cost of Sprint.

Joys, so I have to sacrifice crit resist for block cost reduction. Completely unnecessary.

Change all your impen to sturdy, slot harness magicka, wear 5/1/1 HA

thank me later.

WalkingLegacy

I like the changes so far.

I personally want to be able to DPS in heavy armor because I like way it looks and that's why I want to wear it.

Didn't want to have to wear med for DPS.

Jade1986

Rylana wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

Item Trait Improvements
Item Traits have undergone revision to improve the viability and balance of each Trait. Some Traits have received complete redesigns, other Traits have gained new effects and bonuses, while some other Traits have simply received better number tuning.

Exploration: This trait now increases all gold gained from monster kills instead of increasing exploration experience gained, and has been renamed to Prosperous.
Impenetrable: This trait now also reduces the durability damage taken of the item, in addition to reducing the damage taken from Critical Hits.
Intricate: This trait now also increases the amount of refined materials you obtain whenever you deconstruct the armor, in addition to increasing the amount of inspiration gained.
Nirnhoned: This trait now increases Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by a flat value.
Sturdy: This trait now reduces the cost of Block.
Training: This trait now increases all experience gained from all kills by a percentage, instead of increasing your armor skill line experience only.
Well-fitted: This trait now also reduces the cost of Roll Dodge, in addition to reducing the cost of Sprint.

Joys, so I have to sacrifice crit resist for block cost reduction. Completely unnecessary.

Change all your impen to sturdy, slot harness magicka, wear 5/1/1 HA

thank me later.

Im stamina based.

Forestd16b14_ESO

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

I think that the direction of ZOS is consistent

The "easy" ways to mitigate damage, almost as from armchair, are increased in costs.

The other thing, and I consider that almost elegant (!), is that the stagnation of HA balancing, in making HA a "normal" Armor choice, is that the "hot potatoe" property of HA, the reduced Blocking costs, is simply removed.
This frees up HA to be balanced towards LA & MA in a normal way.

Whether the HA buff package is enough is what we have to find out together.
But IF the buff is not good enough, I would expect that a further buffing would not stagnate again.

I tried ofc to do some quick and dirty Math on rhe other changed passives of HA.
But that is too complicated to shoot from the hip.
So I have to experience it first in PTS.

Yea same here but their is no mention of changing mitigation cap or removing it all together so as far as I know mitigation is still caped at 50%.

I saw nothing related to the 50% Armor damage mitigating cap. So I guess it has stayed the same.

But a little bit related to that 50% cap is that there are two traits changed relevant for achieving a high armor mitigation %.
The Weapon trait Defensive will in future give a fixed value. No PTS yet. So unknown how much, but it will diminish the difference between LA, MA and HA.
The Armor trait Sturdy will in future reduce Block costs. Again no PTS yet and no values known, but this does put the HA build for the choice to invest the trait in more Blocking uptime or better Armor mitigation when not Blocking.

So if the new Weapon trait lowers the Armor gained for HA and you feel to choose Sturdy as Armor trait, I think it will be unlikely that coming close to the 50% cap will still deliver a good Tank build.

@hrothbern On PTS and the new defending trait gold level on a 2H...... a F****** 5160 resistance boost I'm at freaking 31K physical and spell resistance XD and 4 of armor pieces are still at purple level. ALL HAIL TEH NEW TRAIT !!!!!!!

Also bracing is gone and has been replaced with wraith

hrothbern

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

I think that the direction of ZOS is consistent

The "easy" ways to mitigate damage, almost as from armchair, are increased in costs.

The other thing, and I consider that almost elegant (!), is that the stagnation of HA balancing, in making HA a "normal" Armor choice, is that the "hot potatoe" property of HA, the reduced Blocking costs, is simply removed.
This frees up HA to be balanced towards LA & MA in a normal way.

Whether the HA buff package is enough is what we have to find out together.
But IF the buff is not good enough, I would expect that a further buffing would not stagnate again.

I tried ofc to do some quick and dirty Math on rhe other changed passives of HA.
But that is too complicated to shoot from the hip.
So I have to experience it first in PTS.

Yea same here but their is no mention of changing mitigation cap or removing it all together so as far as I know mitigation is still caped at 50%.

I saw nothing related to the 50% Armor damage mitigating cap. So I guess it has stayed the same.

But a little bit related to that 50% cap is that there are two traits changed relevant for achieving a high armor mitigation %.
The Weapon trait Defensive will in future give a fixed value. No PTS yet. So unknown how much, but it will diminish the difference between LA, MA and HA.
The Armor trait Sturdy will in future reduce Block costs. Again no PTS yet and no values known, but this does put the HA build for the choice to invest the trait in more Blocking uptime or better Armor mitigation when not Blocking.

So if the new Weapon trait lowers the Armor gained for HA and you feel to choose Sturdy as Armor trait, I think it will be unlikely that coming close to the 50% cap will still deliver a good Tank build.

@hrothbern On PTS and the new defending trait gold level on a 2H...... a F****** 5160 resistance boost I'm at freaking 31K physical and spell resistance XD and 4 of armor pieces are still at purple level. ALL HAIL TEH NEW TRAIT !!!!!!!

Impressive
your build is ?

EDIT
It means that Defensive has roughly the double Resistance effect as before for a HA user.
AND..... that 5k is also available for LA and MA builds.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

So shields balance was addressed in the shields not in HA
Nirnh9ne pens bslance addressed in nirnhoned not ha.
HA got a damage component psssive likely replacing a sustain ehich helps it support more roles, not just tanking.

Overall not bad. HA more versatile for a multitude of builds and more like the other armor types it must balance against.

Not a bad start, imo.

Yes not a bad start but tanks are meant to tank not deal damage as the new "wraith" skill is doing.

This is the whole problem though. Wrobel keeps trying to make the game a pure DPS race.

Block casting a problem? Nerf all blocking. Dodge rolling a problem? Nerf all dodging. Shields a problem? Nerf all shields.

Too much DPS a problem? Ah, we'll just leave that one in.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Well from my EXP so far on PTS the changes are nice.... But far from anything game changing so to speak. But again on the right path and is just the beginning of PTS.

hrothbern

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well from my EXP so far on PTS the changes are nice.... But far from anything game changing so to speak. But again on the right path and is just the beginning of PTS.

agree, after two hours testing, I am inclined to the same opinion.

To be noted is that it is a really huge re-balancing of in fact all Armor sets and the Armor & Weapon traits influencing Blocking and Armor Resistance.
Also allowing all types of Armor sets to weave substantial Blocking in between with S&B + the Sturdy trait. The one Armor type more tanky than the other, but still....

I think it is worthwhile for PTS to investigate LA and MA partial blocking builds

I think as well that it would be a miracle if all these many changes are perfectly balanced to each other in this first draft for PTS.

Forestd16b14_ESO

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well from my EXP so far on PTS the changes are nice.... But far from anything game changing so to speak. But again on the right path and is just the beginning of PTS.

agree, after two hours testing, I am inclined to the same opinion.

To be noted is that it is a really huge re-balancing of in fact all Armor sets and the Armor & Weapon traits influencing Blocking and Armor Resistance.
Also allowing all types of Armor sets to weave substantial Blocking in between with S&B + the Sturdy trait. The one Armor type more tanky than the other, but still....

I think it is worthwhile for PTS to investigate LA and MA partial blocking builds

I think as well that it would be a miracle if all these many changes are perfectly balanced to each other in this first draft for PTS.

Yea but thing is some where along the line think ZOS forgot heavy armor is meant to take the damage not deal the damage and with this path ZOS is taking it seems like their starting to make Ha just a MA clone with slightly better reisitance and worst resource management.

hrothbern

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well from my EXP so far on PTS the changes are nice.... But far from anything game changing so to speak. But again on the right path and is just the beginning of PTS.

agree, after two hours testing, I am inclined to the same opinion.

To be noted is that it is a really huge re-balancing of in fact all Armor sets and the Armor & Weapon traits influencing Blocking and Armor Resistance.
Also allowing all types of Armor sets to weave substantial Blocking in between with S&B + the Sturdy trait. The one Armor type more tanky than the other, but still....

I think it is worthwhile for PTS to investigate LA and MA partial blocking builds

I think as well that it would be a miracle if all these many changes are perfectly balanced to each other in this first draft for PTS.

Yea but thing is some where along the line think ZOS forgot heavy armor is meant to take the damage not deal the damage and with this path ZOS is taking it seems like their starting to make Ha just a MA clone with slightly better reisitance and worst resource management.

In general I agree that a Tank should not be aimed at Damage.
Handling the really big blows of Bosses has to be tested in the real practice of PTS raids.

However, the bigger self heal from the higher Spell/Weapon Damage of Wrath will help the Tank in solo and raids. Wrath does not only cause more DPS.

What I find also interesting is the changed Mending passives for builds that do Heavy Resto Attacks. They get back a huge amount of Magicka per Heavy Attack if you add that 50% up to the Cycle of Life passive.
Same with a Destro Battle Mage in HA.

But yeah, in general, the direction of ZOS is clearly that the differences should not be too big between the basic Armor types when it is about damage mitigation.

Forestd16b14_ESO

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well from my EXP so far on PTS the changes are nice.... But far from anything game changing so to speak. But again on the right path and is just the beginning of PTS.

agree, after two hours testing, I am inclined to the same opinion.

To be noted is that it is a really huge re-balancing of in fact all Armor sets and the Armor & Weapon traits influencing Blocking and Armor Resistance.
Also allowing all types of Armor sets to weave substantial Blocking in between with S&B + the Sturdy trait. The one Armor type more tanky than the other, but still....

I think it is worthwhile for PTS to investigate LA and MA partial blocking builds

I think as well that it would be a miracle if all these many changes are perfectly balanced to each other in this first draft for PTS.

Yea but thing is some where along the line think ZOS forgot heavy armor is meant to take the damage not deal the damage and with this path ZOS is taking it seems like their starting to make Ha just a MA clone with slightly better reisitance and worst resource management.

In general I agree that a Tank should not be aimed at Damage.
Handling the really big blows of Bosses has to be tested in the real practice of PTS raids.

However, the bigger self heal from the higher Spell/Weapon Damage of Wrath will help the Tank in solo and raids. Wrath does not only cause more DPS.

What I find also interesting is the changed Mending passives for builds that do Heavy Resto Attacks. They get back a huge amount of Magicka per Heavy Attack if you add that 50% up to the Cycle of Life passive.
Same with a Destro Battle Mage in HA.

But yeah, in general, the direction of ZOS is clearly that the differences should not be too big between the basic Armor types when it is about damage mitigation.

right right but if some one is wearing full heavy armor they should atleast be able to take crazy amount of damage better than some in MA.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Well some of our prays have been answered some what and this is just the start of the DB PTS.

So please ZOS stay on the right tath here but just please any more HA chances please make them actually support a tank role and decreases incoming damage cause HA is meant to take damage not deal it that's the point of LA and MA. (old bracing )

DephlaterMouse

Everyone I complaining about losing the 20% reduction to blocking passive, but nobody seemed to notice that you can now get blocking cost reduction via traits...

The new traits seem well done in general imo.

dimensional

DephlaterMouse wrote: »

Everyone I complaining about losing the 20% reduction to blocking passive, but nobody seemed to notice that you can now get blocking cost reduction via traits...

The new traits seem well done in general imo.

But nobody wants to run those traits over impen because you'll get burst down with crits in a matter of seconds. It's still not that great,

Bashev

DephlaterMouse wrote: »

Everyone I complaining about losing the 20% reduction to blocking passive, but nobody seemed to notice that you can now get blocking cost reduction via traits...

The new traits seem well done in general imo.

1) I can get the reduction form traits but i have to scarifies the previous traits that I have.
2) Now the calculations are different, each piece is multiplicative and not additive.
3) There is a trait which reduce the roll dodge cost but the medium passive wasnt nerfed as the heavy armor passive.

hrothbern

DephlaterMouse wrote: »

Everyone I complaining about losing the 20% reduction to blocking passive, but nobody seemed to notice that you can now get blocking cost reduction via traits...

The new traits seem well done in general imo.

If on gold Armor the tooltip of these Sturdy traits state 3% Block Cost reduction.
With 8 traits that would total 24% and that sounds really good compared to the 20% of HA Bracing.

However.... The old Bracing 20% was additive to the 30% from HA Fortress and the 8% of Defensive Posture....
and.... the Sturdy traits are multiplicative.

So if you take 8 Sturdy traits for a seemingly 24%, the net effect is as if Bracing was reduced from 20% to 13.4% !!!
see the calculation on post #141 of http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/261958/restore-bracing-and-lower-block-cost/p5
And to get that 13.4% you have to sacrifice in PVP the impen traits and in PVE, as Tank, the Re-Inforced traits (cost you 3k Armor Resist).
The other passives of HA were buffed up. But none of them increased the HA Armor Resist.

So... ZOS is massaging classic high mitigation Tanks towards a more active existence.

The new reality is simply that Tanks that know to use the buffs of the other passives in a good way to their advantage can negate the debuff on the classic Blocking tanking.

In PVE you have to choose between Block Cost reduction traits or more Armor Resist traits.
In PVP you have to choose between Block Cost reduction traits or more impen traits.

I, for me, just love HA and classic Tanks.... a tower of strenght, indifferent to damage

Dubhliam

DephlaterMouse wrote: »

Everyone I complaining about losing the 20% reduction to blocking passive, but nobody seemed to notice that you can now get blocking cost reduction via traits...

The new traits seem well done in general imo.

Traits?
You mean those things that you can put on light armor?
Or weapons?
How does this benefit Heavy Armor wearers in any way, tell me?

When this update hits live, I'm switching my HA reinforced/infused/divines Hist Bark for LA sturdy Julianos. And defending resto staves.
Watch your a**, a crazy healing/damaging/tanking LA DK is on the way!

hrothbern

Dubhliam wrote: »

DephlaterMouse wrote: »

Everyone I complaining about losing the 20% reduction to blocking passive, but nobody seemed to notice that you can now get blocking cost reduction via traits...

The new traits seem well done in general imo.

Traits?
You mean those things that you can put on light armor?
Or weapons?
How does this benefit Heavy Armor wearers in any way, tell me?

When this update hits live, I'm switching my HA reinforced/infused/divines Hist Bark for LA sturdy Julianos. And defending resto staves.
Watch your a**, a crazy healing/damaging/tanking LA DK is on the way!

haha

yeah
all the tools to make a blocking S&B Tank are now decoupled from HA.

"we can all Tank now !!!"

nimander99

It just flat out makes zero sense that heavy armor is the weakest armor in game, what's the thinking ZoS?

dimensional

nimander99 wrote: »

It just flat out makes zero sense that heavy armor is the weakest armor in game, what's the thinking ZoS?

I absolutely hate it, but I will never stop wearing HA on my tank. It's a matter of principle. I'll stand in the line with the rest of my HA brethren and suffer as a martyr until they do something proper! lmao

hrothbern

dimensional wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

It just flat out makes zero sense that heavy armor is the weakest armor in game, what's the thinking ZoS?

I absolutely hate it, but I will never stop wearing HA on my tank. It's a matter of principle. I'll stand in the line with the rest of my HA brethren and suffer as a martyr until they do something proper! lmao

I am with you

We are the last man standing !

hrothbern

back to serious again.

I just calculated that to get 8 golden Sturdy traits at least on par with the effect of the 20% Bracing.

the Sturdy trait should be 4.75% instead of 3%.

Llilium

so basically you're saying that in order for me to get back my blocking to what it was before, i have to spend at least 60k worth of gold PER PIECE OF ARMOR to make it legendary and sacrifice my f***ing choice of armor traits? and i have to do all that for a lousy freaking new skill that replaces bracing with "wrath" which lets me have a slightly higher damage boost over the course of 6 seconds?

please tell me ZOS is sh***ing me right now.

Teridaxus

It was the same when they changed heavy armour the last time.
Heavy used to be only good vs physical and light was against spell damage while providing various magicka buffs.

They gave heavy finally good resistance vs magic too but nerfed our passives like changing constitution from 2 to 4 seconds or putting the reduced break free cost into immovable which cost far too much anyway.

Jade1986

Bashev wrote: »

DephlaterMouse wrote: »

Everyone I complaining about losing the 20% reduction to blocking passive, but nobody seemed to notice that you can now get blocking cost reduction via traits...

The new traits seem well done in general imo.

1) I can get the reduction form traits but i have to scarifies the previous traits that I have.
2) Now the calculations are different, each piece is multiplicative and not additive.
3) There is a trait which reduce the roll dodge cost but the medium passive wasnt nerfed as the heavy armor passive.

Number three is what really pisses me off. Medium armor gets to keep their passive and heavy armor gets mega shafted. Like I said, ZoS is pretty consistant with their nerfs to blocking.

Jade1986

Llilium wrote: »

so basically you're saying that in order for me to get back my blocking to what it was before, i have to spend at least 60k worth of gold PER PIECE OF ARMOR to make it legendary and sacrifice my f***ing choice of armor traits? and i have to do all that for a lousy freaking new skill that replaces bracing with "wrath" which lets me have a slightly higher damage boost over the course of 6 seconds?

please tell me ZOS is sh***ing me right now.

Sadly ZoS hates heavy armor and blocking. Ill stick to my heavy armor, but this is going to be EVEN MORE PAINFUL than it already is when it comes to gankers.