Console players how do you feel about having no txt chat?

aldyftb

People would only have to shift devices if they wanted to though, both consoles have a working virtual keyboard. and while i agree this is far from perfect its a lot better than nothing at all. Also vitual keyboards tend to memorise what you're typing out so next time you want to say the same thing its so much quicker. You can spout as many studies as you like....theres one flaw in those though, they're not based on eveyone. 1 group of a hundred people will give different feedback to another group of a hundred people. I for one, have never been part of these studies. So the only way to get a true answer, would be to ask the entire population of the game, which takes me back to the mandatory vote i think i mentioned.

EZgoin76

PinoZino wrote "Or all these countless academic studies are wrong, while you - without any testing at all - are right?"

I'll reiterate a previous statement here. The people playing previous console mmo's have been testing it for years.
I'm also curious how many of those studies had actual gamers or any actual console mmo players. Or if most were done by people needing a quick buck to participate in a study.

Tommy1979AtWar

I still don't see the difference in a console player switching devices to a pc player doing the same whilst using a controller but whatever, his arguments are ridiculous and all this thread does is give him another to troll and try to derail.

aldyftb

I get that he doesn't want it, why try to stop others though?

Vulsahdaal

i3ig_Gun wrote: »

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

i3ig_Gun wrote: »

Console players!

Just say NO to text chat.

Its not needed, we have a way better way of communication via voice chat.

You do? So tell me how you use voice chat to address zone? OK, for example your in the middle of nowhere when a dolmen opens up. You look around, there is no one in sight in any direction. How exactly do you use this 'better way of communication' to call for help?

I don't call for help, I do it on my own.

So your idea of a 'better way of communication' is to not communicate at all? Well, that does explain a few things anyway..

PinoZino

EZgoin76 wrote: »

PinoZino wrote "Or all these countless academic studies are wrong, while you - without any testing at all - are right?"

I'll reiterate a previous statement here. The people playing previous console mmo's have been testing it for years.
I'm also curious how many of those studies had actual gamers or any actual console mmo players. Or if most were done by people needing a quick buck to participate in a study.

@EZgoin76,

Exactly! These people base their opinion on anecdotal evidence. They think 'But I have no problems with TextChat, so do we all'.

It's usability mistake #1: I'm the user, all users are like me and all users are alike.

It certainly happens that (big) companies and universities make mistakes: using people with a 'wrong' background, making mistakes in the context, using not enough participants, using the wrong tools or procedures, …

Mostly the mistakes were not fraudulent, but just ‘normal’ mistakes.

But there's a solid protection system: the peer reviews. Universities, the bigger companies and the more known individuals often share their findings with the world. You can bet that the rest would jump on a study with weird results.

To give you a famous example: Sony itself created once a serious mistake. lol

They had a new UX-lab, loaded with high-tech stuff - where I only could dream about - and in one of their first tests for PS4 games, they hired children. They wanted to see how children reacted when they played together in small groups. Something what they often do in the wild.

They even created real life looking bedrooms in the lab, just to create as much context as possible like at home.

Proud as they were, they announced their findings, but rather fast it was crunched.

They made an important mistake in the context.

The bedrooms were fine, the children too, except these children were strangers to each other. Children don't play that much in their own house with strangers, they do it with friends.

Sony admitted the mistake and did the test over. This time with children who knew each other.

And of course, the findings were different.

Such things do happen. Real fraudulent studies don't happen that much. And if they do, they are debunked fast. It’s a small world, wannabe fraudulent people in that field would soon discover nobody would hire them again.

Besides, there's not much to win when you consciously use by instance participants with a 'wrong' background.
You're not asking opinions, but studying behaviour. And unlike opinions, behaviour is rather universal among the same user categories.

Rioht

I've managed without it. Coming from PC the only add on I truly wish made it to console was the fog of war and maybe shopkeeper.

Fog of war was great for exploration and made the game feel more elder scrolly.

Shopkeeper was just great, even for something as small as being able to see what you've sold. Still no idea why we can't even see that?

PinoZino

aldyftb wrote: »

People would only have to shift devices if they wanted to though, both consoles have a working virtual keyboard. and while i agree this is far from perfect its a lot better than nothing at all. Also vitual keyboards tend to memorise what you're typing out so next time you want to say the same thing its so much quicker. You can spout as many studies as you like....theres one flaw in those though, they're not based on eveyone. 1 group of a hundred people will give different feedback to another group of a hundred people. I for one, have never been part of these studies. So the only way to get a true answer, would be to ask the entire population of the game, which takes me back to the mandatory vote i think i mentioned.

No, as I explained to @EZgoin76, they don't ask opinions. If you would work with opinions then even 100 people could be not enough (depending the size of your total user population).

For a game like ZOS, you would have to work with minimum 700-900 people: would be way to expensive and your results would still contain a lot of bias.

They don't ask opinions, but study behaviour of certain specific user categories. Which is rather universal.

Do you want to know how much participant they hire? Only 5 to 6 per user category.

But in the complete development cycle they certainly hire more people. They use by instance 6 people to test the bank inventory. Another 6 to test the mail-system and so on. You have often some overlap for certain functionality. At such, you have tested a little more people than explicit needed.

Sometimes they do hire more than 5-6 people for a specific test, but that's usually for very critical situations. I’m thinking about software or hardware for healthcare, weapon systems, cars, … Stuff which could lead to death people. In such cases you have to, not only by the critical level, but also are they forced by the law.

There could be other reasons as well to use more than 5-6 of course.

Nice reading:
How Many Test Users in a Usability Study?

mrdankles

We need some text chat.

Hiero_Glyph

PinoZino wrote: »

aldyftb wrote: »

Again, despite everything i've read, theres no decent reason not to have an optional text chat, anyone not wanting it, are just being selfish. The whole point in having an optional chat is, if you want to use it, you do, if you don't want to use it, then you can turn it off. I'm all for voice chat. i think its an invaluable way of of communication in any game, including mmo's, however, so is text chat. They actually work really well together.

Do you know how many people actually would use TextChat regularly?

If only 5000 in 1 million players would use TextChat why should the 995.000 other players be selfish in supporting a gizmo few would use?

Why don't you build your own TextChat solution?

You are so sure about your claims. And if you are right, hundred thousands of players will join your TextChat website.
Why are you waiting? It would make you rich as well.

You have no data to support these values! Besides, I would wager that more console players would use text chat than PC players will use the upcoming controller support. This is not to say that PC players will not use a controller, only that they will use Xpadder to retain the PC UI instead of being forced to use the limited console UI. You can't make a claim about how few players would use a feature as a reason to not add it and then have the same company add a feature that will have an even smaller user base. Well, you can make such a statement but it only demonstrates that it has no factual basis.

PinoZino

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

I still don't see the difference in a console player switching devices to a pc player doing the same whilst using a controller but whatever, his arguments are ridiculous and all this thread does is give him another to troll and try to derail.

We have to translate it like:

I still don't want to see the differences...

...he's having another view as I am, at such he must be trolling.

Ok.

Artjuh90

@NewBlacksmurf that's my whole point. it would be stupid to remove text on pc. but why not just give console players one of the most common use of communication in a game that has part designed into it were you have to do it. this is the part that doesn't make sence.
ok we have voice chat but what is the use if it feels like less then 50% of the communtie uses this? give us a other option cause there are already people who stated on this very topic they dont use voice as well due to their own reason. and if i want to search a group in a mayor city it would be nice if people could hear who is communicating and what he just said cause it is really hard to filter stuf out there

@Artheiron p.s. apple is overpriced ;P

PinoZino wrote: »

kaskel2000 wrote: »

For me trying to get into a level 20 dungeon last night really proves to me how much I miss text chat. Spent 20 minutes outside the dungeon spamming "would you like to group?" And when I finally got into a group there was no healer. As none of the rest were using voice chat there was no way to communicate so we failed completely. This all could have been solved by having a simple txt chat.

You are not a doctor and that's why you try to cure a symptom and not the disease.

It's certainly having value that you raise an issue:

* not finding a group

The solution is much worse. Best case it's a 'maybe'.

You try to fix the disease with something you used in other games, but...

a) it's probably not the best solution
b) your solution would certainly not work all the time: there could be no people in front of the dungeon at all, there could be no people in front of the dungeon using TextChat, …
c) the solution is certainly resulting in other problems

It's not that I'm by definition against TextChat, it's more that I think it's not the best solution. TextChat would also result in more problems.

New players could find easily their way to a third-party chat service. They can do, what they always do when they want to find websites:

there is no cure for HIV/AIDS but slowing down the sickness is good. Cause this will probably will be one of the downfalls off eso on console; the lack of communication

Artjuh90

PinoZino wrote: »

kaskel2000 wrote: »

Saying they should use a third party program sort of defeats your argument about switching between controller and keyboard though???? Surely for me to use a third party program on a console I would have to use an application on my iPad or iPhone (other brands exist

An what did I wrote about it earlier?

PinoZino wrote: »

It's not that it's equal, more like it is a solution. Only, I don't believe in it, again due the context of use. It's sharing the same issues with just connecting a keyboard to your console:

Mainly, you still have to switch devices a lot

Drop gamepad, take notebook, tablet or smartphone. Write.
Drop notebook, tablet or smartphone, take Gamepad. Fight or explore.
Drop gamepad, take notebook, tablet or smartphone. Write.
Drop notebook, tablet or smartphone, take Gamepad. Fight or explore.

Do this 20 times in 15 minutes and many of us would say ‘Goodbye, I want to see how my garden is growing’ and leave.

For me the device shifting would kill the game. But that's not what the Pro TextChat people say.

So if they can shift between gamepad and keyboard, they also can shift between gamepad and smartphone/tablet/notebook. The difference would be rather small.

You can cry what you want: there's no build-in TextChat. You can continue crying without much result.

Or you can partly solve the issue by creating a solution on your own. It's maybe not as good as a standard in-game instant messaging system, but it's still better as nothing.

Look, we don't have an in-game private Guild forum as well, but still I provided a forum for my guild on our website. I've my reasons why I did. But a wrong approach would be: I don't build it, because it's not in-game available. And yes, an in-game private forum would be much better. But what we provide on our website is better than nothing.

I've no doubts that there's a niche out there which would be interested in the third-party TextChat solution. However, I don't think you'll attract ten thousands of players.

To help you all out, there are several third-party solutions you can embed in your own website: LivePerson, Com100, BoldChat, Kayako Fusion, LiveHelpNow, Velaro and so many others.

You could even use some Website IRC module.

yes and how do you want the communitie to start using this way to communicatie if you cant communicatie this to them good idia. it's get's stuck before you can implement it

Pallmor

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Not really fussed about it at all. Having more options is always good though, so not gonna say it would be a worthless addition for me personally.

Get by fine using a mic. I've found the only annoying people are found in cities, not IC or Cyrodiil and if someone is annoying, I just click on them, then block them via LIVE. Doing that more or less means you won't see or hear them again.

I really do love built-in voice chat. It's the one area where the ESO console version really shines (not only compared to the PC version, but also to all the other console MMO's). Now that I've had it for a while, I can't imagine a console MMO without it anymore. I was actually going to try out FFXIV until I heard it had no voice chat at all. From what I hear, groups in that FFXIV basically have to resort to using skype on their cellphones to even communicate--just barbaric.

I would like to have a text option for zone chat and some guild chat. But for grouping and casual guildee talk, nothing beats the built-in voice chat. I even like area chat, where you can hear some really funny stuff (and sometimes some bad stuff, admittedly).

Artjuh90

aldyftb wrote: »

Im not even gonna bother no more,countless threads ive seen you try to derail now, and not once have you ever give a decent arguement, you're just argueing for the sake of it. A small box in the corner of the screen, that can be opened or closed is not going to hinder gameplay what-so-ever, it will only enhance said gameplay. Everyone in the game would benefit from it, even those not wanting it.

these *** who probably don't even play on the console are just selfice or just dont get it. if you don't want/need it fine but let the ones who like it have it. it is a minor change and if i have to uses a third party how do i communicate this to the rest of the community to use it. you don't got stuck in a loop. ZOS can easly fix this but probably doesn't ;s

Artjuh90

PinoZino wrote: »

aldyftb wrote: »

Im not even gonna bother no more,countless threads ive seen you try to derail now, and not once have you ever give a decent arguement, you're just argueing for the sake of it. A small box in the corner of the screen, that can be opened or closed is not going to hinder gameplay what-so-ever, it will only enhance said gameplay. Everyone in the game would benefit from it, even those not wanting it.

And that's what you just assume.

• It's still detracting attention
• It still takes expensive screen space away
• People will be annoyed about the pushy behaviour of an in-game instant TextChat. They will have the feeling they have to answer now. While they sometimes don't want to.
• And worst of all, you have to switch devices a lot. Something which is tested a couple of thousand times: people don't like shifting devices. It's proven, that's a fact and not an opinion. There is a reason why UX and usability people try to minimize the impact of shifting between mouse and keyboard while designing an ordinary Windows screen. On a console the shifting is even worse. You have to drop the entire gamepad to take your new device and drop the later when you want to go back to your gamepad.

There's no doubt that most people would dislike the device shifting a lot. Including many of the Pro TextChat people today on this forum. They think only about the advantage (having instant text), but are not able to predict their feelings versus the shifting.

You ignore that TextChat is non-mandatory functionality. It means that the usability can be better good, else people will not use it much or not at all. Due the shifting you can't get the usability at an acceptable level.

Solution? Drop TextChat and think about other solutions.

Or all these countless academic studies are wrong, while you - without any testing at all - are right?

Very, very, very unlikely, however here's your chance: show the world you are right by building it.

pino that's why i said in a previous vote that you should remove it on pc aswell and see the rage. all you just said YOU NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER heared a pc gamer talk about he didn't like it so plz stfu.

PinoZino

Artjuh90 wrote: »

there is no cure for HIV/AIDS but slowing down the sickness is good. Cause this will probably will be one of the downfalls off eso on console; the lack of communication

I agree that they should make it happen that we talk more with each other. If they don't, probably the community would extinct.

That may contradict with not demanding TextChat, but you guys seems to think there's only TextChat to communicate (more) with each other.

There's so much other stuff they could do and should analyze...

Hammy01

Artjuh90 wrote: »

aldyftb wrote: »

Im not even gonna bother no more,countless threads ive seen you try to derail now, and not once have you ever give a decent arguement, you're just argueing for the sake of it. A small box in the corner of the screen, that can be opened or closed is not going to hinder gameplay what-so-ever, it will only enhance said gameplay. Everyone in the game would benefit from it, even those not wanting it.

these *** who probably don't even play on the console are just selfice or just dont get it. if you don't want/need it fine but let the ones who like it have it. it is a minor change and if i have to uses a third party how do i communicate this to the rest of the community to use it. you don't got stuck in a loop. ZOS can easly fix this but probably doesn't ;s

Yeah I agree, to me it just seems like they have some sort of hidden agenda for not wanting console players to have text chat. Having both in game benefits everyone and there really is no downside. In my opinion the more communication tools we have the stronger the ESO community is and more likely to stay around longer.

PS.. lol, I just realized that when you quote someone you can see what they typed out that was replaced with ***.

Artjuh90

PinoZino wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

there is no cure for HIV/AIDS but slowing down the sickness is good. Cause this will probably will be one of the downfalls off eso on console; the lack of communication

I agree that they should make it happen that we talk more with each other. If they don't, probably the community would extinct.

That may contradict with not demanding TextChat, but you guys seems to think there's only TextChat to communicate (more) with each other.

There's so much other stuff they could do and should analyze...

but text doesn't need research and mutch time to implement and would satisfy most players at least for some time

EZgoin76

I don't need a usability study telling me that it's not possible or uncomfortable, when myself and THOUSANDS of other players have been doing it for years.

I will say the players coming from other types of games are most likely to find it uncomfortable or clunky but those of us who are already used to it, and don't be delusional, there's a lot, probably have no problem using text chat.

So until voice chat can cover entire zones without becoming utter chaos, speak for the disabled, "think Stephen Hawking", also giving a voice to the anti-social and automatically translates foreign language to the listeners native language. Then any game where a mass population of players need to communicate with one another needs text chat.

That's it, I'm done with this ignorance, Not gonna respond in this thread anymore. I would have better results banging my head against a wall.

PinoZino

Artjuh90 wrote: »

yes and how do you want the communitie to start using this way to communicatie if you cant communicatie this to them good idia. it's get's stuck before you can implement it

There are several things you can do. Start with building a user-friendly and Google-friendly website. It could sound weird but for many issues the requirements overlap.

Make sure you have some link bait on your website too. Write quality articles about General ESO tips and tricks, but other things can work as well. Try to create unique content. And if it’s not that unique make sure it’s better as what the competition is serving.

When you can go live, make publicity on other websites and forums related to ESO (including this one). There are over 1000 websites, so you'll have the time of your life with linking.

The more links you have, the higher you will be ranked in Google (but lol, it's not the only parameter they use).
After a couple of months tons of people will invade your website via Google.

Use social media: Facebook, Twitter, ...
Make sure people can retweet your site or Like it.
Try to convince influential people with many followers or friends if they would talk about your site (including the link!). It's also very good for your Google ranking.

If you start to gain traffic to your site, try to convince paper magazines to write about your site.

And don't underestimate the word of mouth.

Look, if you really think your TextChat concept is solid and if the people are really waiting for it, then it will find its way to the people fast. Even with a no or low budget, you can expect nice results after 6-9 months.

I doubt it really would be a big hit. But I certainly think you should be able to attract a few hundred people. And that could be enough for a more or less viable system which could give pleasure and benefits to the users.

Maybe with some luck, we are all wrong.

If it would be an instant hit, you can bet ZOS would give you TextChat fast. Really.

It would certainly work much better as creating yet another cry-cry-I-want-TextChat-thread.

JMadFour

Keepercraft wrote: »

So, you will don't need this.

I want one of those.

xbox 360 had something like that it was pretty awesome.

PinoZino

Artjuh90 wrote: »

but text doesn't need research and mutch time to implement and would satisfy most players at least for some time

That's what you assume.

You have to test it out with several user categories and providing specific conditions like:

* Give them VoiceChat only
* Give them TextChat only
* Give them Voice and TextChat
* Make them aware there's a keyboard and give them a situation where the keyboard is connected to the console and one situation with a disconnected keyboard
* Use a scenario were the use of VoiceChat and/or TextChat is forbidden
* And you can even think about more scenarios
*
Next you start watching them playing the game. There are 2 types of tests: give them specific tasks or let them do some freeriding.

And now you watch if they use the keyboard, connect it to the console (when it was disconnected), watch if they avoid or stop using the keyboard or release unasked comments -> if they moan and swear that's usually a sign there's something wrong.

And this is just - in short - a usability test.

You need functional and other analyst, the software architect, the database monsters, the lead programmer, marketing, project managers, even lawyers and other people getting together in several boring meetings.

Then it has to be developed, documented and tested several times.

Nope, it's doesn't need research or much time to implement. Writing software or games in a company, it is really not something like armchair programming at home.

Even simple things can take weeks to develop and usually you need a small army of people to get the job done.

Sausage

Ive made some friends so I play with them so Im ok.

Korah_Eaglecry

PinoZino wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

but text doesn't need research and mutch time to implement and would satisfy most players at least for some time

That's what you assume.

You have to test it out with several user categories and providing specific conditions like:

* Give them VoiceChat only
* Give them TextChat only
* Give them Voice and TextChat
* Make them aware there's a keyboard and give them a situation where the keyboard is connected to the console and one situation with a disconnected keyboard
* Use a scenario were the use of VoiceChat and/or TextChat is forbidden
* And you can even think about more scenarios
*
Next you start watching them playing the game. There are 2 types of tests: give them specific tasks or let them do some freeriding.

And now you watch if they use the keyboard, connect it to the console (when it was disconnected), watch if they avoid or stop using the keyboard or release unasked comments -> if they moan and swear that's usually a sign there's something wrong.

And this is just - in short - a usability test.

You need functional and other analyst, the software architect, the database monsters, the lead programmer, marketing, project managers, even lawyers and other people getting together in several boring meetings.

Then it has to be developed, documented and tested several times.

Nope, it's doesn't need research or much time to implement. Writing software or games in a company, it is really not something like armchair programming at home.

Even simple things can take weeks to develop and usually you need a small army of people to get the job done.

Its you thats assuming with this 'studies' this and 'implementation would take too long' that.

People have already found the base code for the text chat in the console game. Its either been turned off or not completely finished. They had a year more after PC Launch to move the game over. Text Chat does not take that great of amount of coding and would of been one of the last things to work on. Its more likely they ran out of time and gave the excuse that VOIP was what they were going with.

JMadFour

honestly at this point, I am neither here nor there on Text Chat.

I like the Voice Chat that we have. but text chat would also be nice

if we ever got text chat, I'd probably be more social with Area and Region chat though, as of now, I am basically only using my guild channels for communicating with people. and Group for when I do a dungeon. I keep Area chat turned off.

I'd rather then give us our Character Names(still irks me to this day that we have to select a unique character name, for absolutely no reason.)

also, PinoZino is basically trolling at this point.

PinoZino

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Its you thats assuming with this 'studies' this and 'implementation would take too long' that.

People have already found the base code for the text chat in the console game. Its either been turned off or not completely finished. They had a year more after PC Launch to move the game over. Text Chat does not take that great of amount of coding and would of been one of the last things to work on. Its more likely they ran out of time and gave the excuse that VOIP was what they were going with.

As a matter of fact it was me who found the code. But it was not the base code, just some Lua wrappings.

If the actual code really exists, it's probably some old port code or some functional code to test the conceptual idea. It's more likely it's not production ready. If this source code exist at all.
It still need to be tested and analyzed, you still need the meetings with the army of people before you can release.

You're not in the software business, don't you?

Chieve

I just wanna say that i think asking people to play dor consoles can be biased, old elder scroll games with solo games and im sure anyone who volunteered was more looking for solo than an mmo and i doubt they played a real mmo before

And as stated. ...several times, if people honestly hate it, there can be an off button

Asherons_Call

It's needed but being ignored in favor of things no one is even asking for

PinoZino wrote: »

aldyftb wrote: »

If you dont find switching devices or typing with a game pad "fun", then yoou could just turn it off, thats the beauty of options.

And what if the option, a bit exaggerated, was only turned on by you?

And that's the bottom line. There's no doubt that some people would use TextChat, the question is "how many?" or more likely "how few?".

And unlike you, ZOS has the data, the budget and the knowledge to figure that one out. I know they did, at least maybe partly.

Options, even simple things, cost a lot of money. If the ROI isn't good, they you shouldn't develop it.
It’s better to spend the same budget on other stuff which could benefit more people.

Sorry peeno but I think you'd be surprised "how many" would use text. It's a staple of the MMO industry. Not that voice would go away, it is still and always be #1 in group dungeons and PVP

PinoZino

Chieve wrote: »

I just wanna say that i think asking people to play dor consoles can be biased, old elder scroll games with solo games and im sure anyone who volunteered was more looking for solo than an mmo and i doubt they played a real mmo before

And as stated. ...several times, if people honestly hate it, there can be an off button

That's indeed a valid point. The first month I was like playing a single player in an MMO setting. Alone but together.

I can imagine many people plays like this most of the time.

Do they need chat, any chat? Not at all.