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The root of the problem - A lack of limits

  • Darlgon
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    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    Soulshine wrote: »
    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    Which is why there needs to be a cap on number of points spent, not number of points earned. Nobody should be able to max out more than 25% of the CP system.

    That is still a band-aide to the problem, especially if you are going to still allow people to willy-nilly invest in every single star. People are already proving, in typical fashion, that cookie cutter builds for meta are their only interest and any other viable options in most arenas for competitive play, whether they are PvE or PvP, are disregarded. Then comes the nerf-this-that parade as a result. The system completely fails to provide any meaningful choices for diversity, let alone effectiveness based on player skill.

    I get what you mean, but ZoS is now too invested into the CP system at this point to pull out unscathed. The only solutions that ZoS would consider are solutions that leave the CP system in in some form. Perhaps the point paths could be tweaked? Put Magicka benefiting passives in tree favouring Stamina and vici versa. That way, along with a cap with the number of points spent would make players choose between having passives that benefit their build or trees that boost their style of play.

    You mean.. like the Veteran Rank system it was meant to replace? Or the never level above 50 that the VR system was designed to temporarily replace..

    Sigh a big part of the issue here is, both systems have took too long before they phased out. Players went way beyond what ZoS thought was a possible ceiling before grinding players became too OP.
    Power level to CP160 in a week:
    Where is the end game? You just played it.
    Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
    Where is new content? Sigh.
  • maxlacab16_ESO
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    DeanTheCat wrote: »

    All that the capping does is that it returns the top 5% from demi-god status into champion status, to make it seem that the "Casuals" could actually have a chance of winning. Nobody likes playing a game where they stood mathematically 0% chance of winning. If all those "Casual" players who you disdain all decided to leave today, I can assure you that ESO will shut down within a month. I do not wish that to happen to a game I enjoy and love.

    I too wish this game to live long and prosper!
    And I have no disdain for casual players. Quite the opposite, since I consider myself one as well.
    But I also respect those players that live this game, rather than play it, and the rewards they receive for their dedication.

    Of course you are right to point out that the gap may be mathematically unbeatable and that the stat increases from VR14 to VR16 are out of proportion. I agree that this is removing the top players from mortal combat, even against overwhelming odds. But capping or soft-capping may not be the best solution for this issue. I do not propose that I have a solution for the complexity of the current balancing problems, but a look at the progression of stat increases in respect to levels and CPs may be worthwhile. And yes, the highest skilled and leveled players should always be able to beat their opponents of lesser ranks. But not hordes of them as they can do now!
    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    It's nothing more than a hollow victory, knowing that you relied on someone else to get you to where you are. I'm sure I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment. Many people out there want to get the epic loot that we all want, but also want to feel that they actually made an effort to obtain it.

    I am not in favor of receiving hand-outs or hand-downs from other players either. That comment was meant for those players who, despite their best efforts, believe that their progression is not fast enough and that they are missing out on key game content because they lack survivability. Trophy gear can help bolster a player's confidence as well as performance. I suggested that instead of calling for nerfs to others, or worse, dropping out of the game, you could ask for help when you feel you are stuck!
    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    The basic mechanics are currently flawed, and the current Buff-Nerf See-Saw is nothing more then treating the symptom rather than the cause. When removing weeds from an otherwise pristine garden, one removes them at the roots, and not just cutting what's visible.

    I totally agree with you on this point and IMO the Nerf-Gun is a knee-jerk reaction to a conceptual flaw in class/skill balancing. But the correction of such issues would take a major effort and resources that may be too taxing to be feasible for ZOS...

  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    *cough* @ZOS_RichLambert *cough*
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Bloodgharm
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    @DeanTheCat Very good post, but I have to disagree.

    Every game or sport or art or skill is based on the principle of "Rewards for Investment" or "Mastery through Practice."
    Players who invest large parts of their time in building knowledge, skills and routines within the framework of the game, should by all means be rewarded for their efforts. If those rewards were capped, and everyone who played the game could achieve the same "excellence" and "advancement" in a casual play style, the game would be pointless!

    In the big and relevant marathon races, there is always a small group of "hard core" racers, who with every race they run, push the envelope of what is humanly possible. Then there are many many others who are fast, very fast, but often more than an hour behind that 'hard core' group in the front! And then you got the tens of thousands who hope that they will be able to finish the race on their feet, and not die of a exhaustion or a heart attack!
    Now, should the front runners be capped for the sake of the pack? The race would be pointless and the marathon would die!

    The dis-balance between casual gamers and intense (hard-core) gamers will always be extreme. If the game did not allow this, there would be no intense gamers and there would be no game at all...it would be Angry Birds.

    In addition, the dis-balance you point out is only relevant in PVP. In PVE your best buddy is the one that can protect you from all the baddies in the world!

    As for selective grouping in PVE: let the VR16 Legends group with each other and sweep up all the trophies, items and loot they want. There are hundreds of other players still wanting to do the same content at lower levels. If you are not a VR16 Legend, don't pretend to be one! And if you are lucky, you may convince a VR16 Legend to run with you and get you that upgrade that you have failed to get on your own!

    On the point of class dis-balance, which you did not get into, I can only suggest that if you think your own class is overpowered by another, roll a new character of that class and see if the class is actually OP, or if you just need to L2P!

    IMO, nerfing a class or skill is always the wrong fix and never a solution. If the lower level players indeed want to be SAFE from higher level players in PVP, then I would suggest to BRACKET the levels and make it impossible to attack a player in another BRACKET than your own!

    just my 2c

    I understand your argument that hardcore players should be rewarded for their time and effort put into the game, but there's a difference between honing your skills and mindlessly grinding for hours on end. The disparity between someone with 0CP and 300CP is huge, as Dean mentioned. The gap needs to be lessened. I'm not talking about extremely steep diminishing returns on CP and attributes, but there needs be some sort of limit otherwise the game will become segregated amongst high CP and low CP players.

    As Dean also noted, you're going to lose casuals to the feeling of being so overwhelmed by anyone who can sink hours/day into this game and that's going to hurt the hardcore players too. Once all the "fodder" is gone, it's going to turn into a game of who-can-attack-first...the end product of power creep. By implementing some sort of softcaps on attributes as well as more diminishing returns on CP, you'll give the casual players a semblance of agency and the game will more naturally gravitate to a skill-based competition as opposed to a time-invested competition.
  • THEDKEXPERIENCE
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    First off ... Credit due. Great post.

    Secondly ... Shhhhhhhhh ... no one thinks breath of life spam works. You're letting out my secret! Haha. Ok, not really an argument. You're right. Still the BoL spam is the single most vital tool that non max level Templars have in our tool belt. Despite being pretty hard core ish in my play style, I'm only a VR8 (got there last night), because a variety of factors usually keep my play time down to 10 hours a week or less. Still, I've strategically set up my guy so that I can compete in PVP. Recently I've killed plenty of VR15s and VR16s. Using the BoL spam has been vital to my survivabilty. Last I checked I can hit it 18 times in a row before running out of magic.

    Also, another way to bridge the power gap is to equip toggles and spells that help other spells. On my bars I have 4 of the same skills (BoL, Entropy, Inner Light, and the Jesus Beam), because 2 of them provide both constant and short term power boosts. Combining them together allows Radiant Destruction to hit like I'm a max level character. Throw in a bat swarm and I can 1 on 5 people sometimes with a reckless disregard for what their level is.

    At the end of the day there are ways to bridge the power gap with a bit of creativity.
  • failkiwib16_ESO
    failkiwib16_ESO
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    Dean thanks for this post, it is interesting to read your suggestions and thoughts, however I do disagree with you. Most builds were mediocre back when we had softcaps. The community benefited greatly from the changes that came with 1.6 update, because more extreme builds were possible to achieve.
    However with the latest large patch we got nerfed into oblivion, and the general lowlevel quester is struggling more than ever at solo pve and group play. I know that Zenimax wants us to grind for the new items, but they nerfed us to the point, where many people don't even want to bother doing pledges and group dungeons, just because it takes too long to do them now.

    As a healer, the increasing screams of "I NEED A SPEAAARRR" over ts is also becomming annoying.

    There is no issue with players being absolutely OP regarding champion points. Those players are very few, and what they have is obtainable for everyone, given that you invest equally amount of time and efford into obtaining it. I don't think it is unfair that they have advantages over players who have a fulltime job and children, and can only play 1 evening per week. It's not like there is any content in the game that is unattainable for a skilled player, regardless of cp advantages.
  • TheValkyn
    TheValkyn
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    NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

    Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

    Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.


    @Emma_Eunjung

    If something isn't done to address the Champion System's flaws then the game will only have "solo-oriented" players.
  • Emma_Overload
    Emma_Overload
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    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    Great post, I pretty much agree with everything and I hope more people see this and ZOS pays attention to threads like this instead of whining threads. I think the way the game is headed people are being forced into cookie cutter builds more then ever. I really just want to ask ZOS why they would nerf block the way they did but not take away block casting instead, I feel like they take the easy route instead of the better one, or they just dont know how. Another thing why did they nerf hp attributes and gliphs, just to have to nerf damage, take away the first nerf and I think there would be no need for the second nerf. Im hoping at least by December they fix the hole CP mess they created.
    This may be completely off topic but how do people justify whining about TTK when they put every attribute point and all glyphs into either magicka or stamina and no hp? In pve players spec at least some into hp and in pvp they just cry for nerfs becuase they don't want to give up there glass cannon builds. If your wearing cloth and you don't have no hp you should die fast, if your out in the open on the front lines.

    People normally assuming everything isn't their fault, and that they are blameless. Like I said, we give our enemies the means of our own destruction. I really hope that we can have some form of balance back to ESO, as the game was much more fun before 1.6. Back then, you only had to contend with gearing and skill. Now you have to contend with broken mechanics, gearing, skill and time invested.
    NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

    Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

    Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.

    Solo players managing to solo what was never meant to be solo-ed is a perfect example of power creep being too high. If we constantly continue to try to cater to balance for these "pure soloists", what happens in a group situation? Everyone would be so blatantly overpowered, that combat would boil down to who landed the 1st blow, or the devs need to implement cheap one-shot mechanics to mobs instead of providing real difficulty.
    Soulshine wrote: »
    The catastrophic issue with the CP system and power creep is so pathetically obvious it is beyond belief, yet it is constantly overlooked, or rather deliberately denied: there are no meaningful compromises whatsoever put in place to balance the point paths available.

    EVERYONE can have ALL possible points in the system maxed out eventually, regardless of build and gear. You can have magicka based builds able to max out stamina cost reduction, weapon damage, etc., as well as have stamina builds able to max out spell cost reduction and spell critical, etc. Such a system is the absolute epitome of what leads to power creep in games since there are no balances whatsoever in it.

    There is a reason other games that employ skill trees with passive bonuses force players to make choices and do not allow for everything and anything to be an option to a SINGLE build. Seasonal caps and other such rubbish proposals are not going to solve the issue here, they will only stave off over a modicum of time the inevitable result.

    Which is why there needs to be a cap on number of points spent, not number of points earned. Nobody should be able to max out more than 25% of the CP system.

    ESO isn't balanced for solo players, though, and never has been (except for the Main Quest and a few other things). ESO is balanced for multiple players with less than 100 CP, because that's what newbie players will have when the reach the endgame. The beneficial side effect of this is that a struggling solo player can grind CP until they finally have a fighting chance to conquer most of the content in the game.

    Edited by Emma_Overload on September 23, 2015 2:52PM
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • Elijah_Crow
    Elijah_Crow
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    Dean,

    I like a lot of your posts but have to disagree with you on this one. There is more viable build diversity in 1.7 than I have ever seen and I feel your recommended changes would seriously impact this.

    I would however support a champion point seasonal cap and catch up mechanic. Would love to see the cap at 300 champion points until the release of The next DLC. I would consider myself a "Core" gamer and I'm at about 225 and of my gaming group I'm the top CP.

    I don't want content balanced around 500 CP players.
    Edited by Elijah_Crow on September 23, 2015 2:53PM
  • DeanTheCat
    DeanTheCat
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    Nerouyn wrote: »
    Broadly speaking I'd say the OP makes some good points. But I don't think the lack of limits is the problem. Many of the game's could also be solved by doing the following.

    1) Completely remove ability scaling with magicka and stamina.

    In most games, including the single player TES games, magicka and stamina are resource pools. The benefit to having more of them is that you can fire off more abilities before needing to take a break. IMO the same should be true in ESO.

    Do this and players will - without the need for soft caps on anything - distribute their magicka / health / stamina a bit more evenly.

    2) In addition to spell damage, create a separate stat for spell defence / mitigation / ???. Spell damage would boost damage spells. The other would boost healing and things like damage shields and crowd control.

    Do this and players can't be uber in both attack and defence by piling everything into a single stat.

    In my opinion this is one of biggest mistakes they made with the game and the root of many problems.

    @Nerouyn: Basically the same balancing approach Pokemon took then? That resulted in a meta of insanely powerful sweepers and walls that was near impossible to break. There's really only one set of Competitive Pokemon left in Gen 6. You either built your team to wipe fast, or a team of walls nobody could break. Versatility is important to prevent players from being pigeonholed into that situation.
    mtwiggz wrote: »
    The removal of Soft Caps is what put ESOs combat system to shame.

    Soft Caps from 1.5 with the stamina changes in 1.6 would have made for a great 1.7 game. Now if Soft Caps were reimplemented into the current 1.7 meta (with the nerfed skills, damage and heals) the game would be Elder Pillow-Fights Online.

    End all be all is that Zenimax did a terrible job at balancing game breaking skills and/or issues.

    @mtwiggz: If softcaps return, the damage mitigation should also be reduced at the same time. The end result is that the top 5% will barely notice a difference in TTK, while lower levels would be buffed relatively to have a fighting chance against the top 5%. You cannot do one change without the other to counterbalance.

    First off ... Credit due. Great post.

    Secondly ... Shhhhhhhhh ... no one thinks breath of life spam works. You're letting out my secret! Haha. Ok, not really an argument. You're right. Still the BoL spam is the single most vital tool that non max level Templars have in our tool belt. Despite being pretty hard core ish in my play style, I'm only a VR8 (got there last night), because a variety of factors usually keep my play time down to 10 hours a week or less. Still, I've strategically set up my guy so that I can compete in PVP. Recently I've killed plenty of VR15s and VR16s. Using the BoL spam has been vital to my survivabilty. Last I checked I can hit it 18 times in a row before running out of magic.

    Also, another way to bridge the power gap is to equip toggles and spells that help other spells. On my bars I have 4 of the same skills (BoL, Entropy, Inner Light, and the Jesus Beam), because 2 of them provide both constant and short term power boosts. Combining them together allows Radiant Destruction to hit like I'm a max level character. Throw in a bat swarm and I can 1 on 5 people sometimes with a reckless disregard for what their level is.

    At the end of the day there are ways to bridge the power gap with a bit of creativity.

    @danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO: There are ways to somewhat bridge the gap, but don't forget. The tools that you used are also available to the max levels. Still, the very fact you can think of this and use it effectively simply proves that any max levels you beat simply got outplayed. Kudos.


    Dean thanks for this post, it is interesting to read your suggestions and thoughts, however I do disagree with you. Most builds were mediocre back when we had softcaps. The community benefited greatly from the changes that came with 1.6 update, because more extreme builds were possible to achieve.
    However with the latest large patch we got nerfed into oblivion, and the general lowlevel quester is struggling more than ever at solo pve and group play. I know that Zenimax wants us to grind for the new items, but they nerfed us to the point, where many people don't even want to bother doing pledges and group dungeons, just because it takes too long to do them now.

    As a healer, the increasing screams of "I NEED A SPEAAARRR" over ts is also becomming annoying.

    There is no issue with players being absolutely OP regarding champion points. Those players are very few, and what they have is obtainable for everyone, given that you invest equally amount of time and efford into obtaining it. I don't think it is unfair that they have advantages over players who have a fulltime job and children, and can only play 1 evening per week. It's not like there is any content in the game that is unattainable for a skilled player, regardless of cp advantages.

    @failkiwib16_ESO: I understand what you mean, and I don't seek the return of total limitation. I instead seek a middle ground between the extremes of 1.6 and the limitations of 1.5. The freedom to fully express yourself in build choice, yet not completely reaching absurd levels of power. I'm not trying to completely homogenize everything and take power completely away from the top 5%. We just need to give everyone a fighting chance by imposing limits on power, then remove the previous nerfs that were enacted due to previously unchecked power levels. That way, we all get a chance at victory, rather then an environment that has the outcome already decided before the battle even begins.
    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    Great post, I pretty much agree with everything and I hope more people see this and ZOS pays attention to threads like this instead of whining threads. I think the way the game is headed people are being forced into cookie cutter builds more then ever. I really just want to ask ZOS why they would nerf block the way they did but not take away block casting instead, I feel like they take the easy route instead of the better one, or they just dont know how. Another thing why did they nerf hp attributes and gliphs, just to have to nerf damage, take away the first nerf and I think there would be no need for the second nerf. Im hoping at least by December they fix the hole CP mess they created.
    This may be completely off topic but how do people justify whining about TTK when they put every attribute point and all glyphs into either magicka or stamina and no hp? In pve players spec at least some into hp and in pvp they just cry for nerfs becuase they don't want to give up there glass cannon builds. If your wearing cloth and you don't have no hp you should die fast, if your out in the open on the front lines.

    People normally assuming everything isn't their fault, and that they are blameless. Like I said, we give our enemies the means of our own destruction. I really hope that we can have some form of balance back to ESO, as the game was much more fun before 1.6. Back then, you only had to contend with gearing and skill. Now you have to contend with broken mechanics, gearing, skill and time invested.
    NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

    Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

    Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.

    Solo players managing to solo what was never meant to be solo-ed is a perfect example of power creep being too high. If we constantly continue to try to cater to balance for these "pure soloists", what happens in a group situation? Everyone would be so blatantly overpowered, that combat would boil down to who landed the 1st blow, or the devs need to implement cheap one-shot mechanics to mobs instead of providing real difficulty.
    Soulshine wrote: »
    The catastrophic issue with the CP system and power creep is so pathetically obvious it is beyond belief, yet it is constantly overlooked, or rather deliberately denied: there are no meaningful compromises whatsoever put in place to balance the point paths available.

    EVERYONE can have ALL possible points in the system maxed out eventually, regardless of build and gear. You can have magicka based builds able to max out stamina cost reduction, weapon damage, etc., as well as have stamina builds able to max out spell cost reduction and spell critical, etc. Such a system is the absolute epitome of what leads to power creep in games since there are no balances whatsoever in it.

    There is a reason other games that employ skill trees with passive bonuses force players to make choices and do not allow for everything and anything to be an option to a SINGLE build. Seasonal caps and other such rubbish proposals are not going to solve the issue here, they will only stave off over a modicum of time the inevitable result.

    Which is why there needs to be a cap on number of points spent, not number of points earned. Nobody should be able to out more than 25% of the CP system.

    ESO isn't balanced for solo players, though, and never has been (except for the Main Quest and a few other things). ESO is balanced for multiple players with less than 100 CP, because that's what newbie players will have when the reach the endgame. The beneficial side effect of this is that a struggling solo player can grind CP until they finally have a fighting chance to conquer most of the content in the game.

    @Emma_Eunjung: It isn't, and I understand your stance and point of view. However, this is a situation of sacrificing some for the benefit of many. I rather we achieve balance at manageable power levels then completely catering to dedicated soloists and ruining the game for many. I hope you understand that I'm trying to see that ESO doesn't go the way of the dodo, and the only way that's possible is to cater and balance such that everyone gets a shot at victory which doesn't depend completely on time invested.

    Dean,

    I like a lot of your posts but have to disagree with you on this one. There is more viable build diversity in 1.7 than I have ever seen and I feel your recommended changes would seriously impact this.

    I would however support a champion point seasonal cap and catch up mechanic. Would love to see the cap at 300 champion points until the release of The next DLC. I would consider myself a "Core" gamer and I'm at about 225 and of my gaming group I'm the top CP.

    I don't want content balanced around 500 CP players.

    @Elijah_Crow: A seasonal cap would only delay the inevitable of demigod status players, and not completely solve the problem. I see what you mean about the potential of current build diversity, but that current diversity is coming at the expense of the average player who will never ever see any of the current potential that is available to us. It is unsustainable to continue this trend, and thus we must keep power levels within reasonable limits. I admit that there may be better ideas and I may be wrong, but this is what I currently feel on the subject, and is in my opinion the most likely way to salvage the situation before it deteriorates further.

    Sorry about the poor formatting, replying on a phone at the moment.
    Dean the Cat
    Somewhat Insane Puddicat
    EU-PC Megaserver; Ebonheart Pact, Alliance Rank 34
    This one hails from far Singapore, excuse this one for his high pings. He also apologizes for any formatting/spelling errors, as he tends to answer using a mobile device.

    Insanity is the price of Knowledge. Herma-Mora and Sheogorath, this one bows before thee.

    This one does not advocate for any class to be nerfed. There are far deeper underlying issues then a simple "Class Imbalance". The Champion System is the problem. Not classes.

    Please read this before creating yet another nerf thread.

    My guides:
  • QuebraRegra
    QuebraRegra
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    Dean,

    I like a lot of your posts but have to disagree with you on this one. There is more viable build diversity in 1.7 than I have ever seen and I feel your recommended changes would seriously impact this.

    Build Diversity? 1.6, and this patch is terrible for build diversity. It is very subtle now so not a lot of people recognize it for what it is, and Dean focused more on nerfs, but the removal of softcaps led to nerfs on gear as well.

    Have you ever wondered why there are only THREE endgame jewelry sets? Agility/Endurance/Willpower?
    Its a very clever nerf, as well as lynch pin to endgame gear acquisition since everyone needs one of only three sets and it makes it easier for ZOS to control the rate at which people get fully geared by controlling the rings of power like freaking Sauron.

    In the last patch we had over 15 Endgame Jewelry sets (ravager, cyrodiils lights, morag tong, etc). This allowed min/maxers to mix these sets so that every 2 pcs of gear had a spell damage/weapon damage increase. Two cyrodiils light rings would give you a spell damage increase, mix that with the adroitness pendant, and martial knowledge, you get the picture. If you did this right you would end up with 5 or 6 power increase bonuses. With the new jewelry, it takes three pieces to get just one power bonus and there are no more mixed armor sets. If all of the previous jewelry sets existed at V16, there is no way the willpower/agility sets would be BIS. They are BIS now only because of the huge increase in power from V14 to V16 and the lack of other jewelry options and sets that offer both jewelry and armor.

    But this brings up a bigger problem. The champion system is slowly making gear, and especially 5pc bonuses irrelevant.
    Look at some of the best sets people used in 1.5. Warlock, Seducer, etc. Who wants to wear 5pc of seducer to get an 8% spell cost reduction when you can max out a champion point tree and get 25% cost reduction? Who needs warlock when you have unlimited magicka regen?

    Patch 1.6 created an attribute stacking race. 5 piece bonuses, unless they massively increase attributes like hundings, were largely ignored because it was more valuable to combine bits of gear to max out your attributes and damage.

    This creates only two endgame builds:
    Max Stamina/Regen/Weapon Power
    Max Magicka/Regen/Spell Power

    With the softcaps of 1.5, your build diversity was through the roof. There were tons of viable endgame hybrid builds that used both magicka and stamina for DPS, and horizontal progression sets, (ones that provided an ability such as spectre's eye or death's wind) were much more popular than just using a combination of 3pcs and 4pc bonuses to min/max.

    Also, with 1.5. There were actual tradeoffs to theorycrafting.
    You only had 7 armor slots, 3 jewelry slots and up to two active weapons. You armor type mattered and you had to choose carefully. You could gear for heavy survivability or sustain but you would lose out in damage.

    The worst part of the champion system is that there are no trade-offs, have enough CP and you can get all the things.
    Heavily speccing into one tree does not mean you have to make any choices or lose benefits from another tree.Now you can wear full heavy, max your armor, then use the champion system to crank out damage and resource sustain equivalent to wearing full medium, where is the trade-off in that? Gear, and even armor type (heavy, light, medium) is slowly becoming irrelevant.

    TL;DR: Contrary to what some people are saying in this thread. The champion system is terrible for theory crafting and build diversity. The champion system is the equivalent of wearing three more sets of armor/jewelry but without the trade-offs that make gear selection (and theorycrafting) fun.

    QFT. That's good analysis.

  • Nerouyn
    Nerouyn
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    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    @Nerouyn: Basically the same balancing approach Pokemon took then?

    No. Didn't even know there was a multiplayer game for it. So I couldn't speak to whatever problems you claim it has.

    But there have been other multiplayer games with more open skill systems like ESO and they didn't hang both damage and defensive / healing ability power on a single stat for good and obvious reasons.

    There's the option to max out damage and that could work in teams. But solo and especially in PvP the tradeoff is you become a true glass cannon with little defense. So the developers don't need to soft cap anything. The game, in a more natural and immersive fashion, discourages extremes.
  • Soris
    Soris
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    NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

    Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

    Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.
    So instead training hard and improving yourself, you need mindlessly grind mobs for months to become destroyer of zergs?

    Did you just said that?
    Edited by Soris on September 24, 2015 3:47PM
    Welkynd [Templar/AD/EU]
  • LordSemaj
    LordSemaj
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    Soris wrote: »
    So instead training hard and improving yourself, you need mindlessly grind mobs for months to become destroyer of zergs?

    Did you just said that?

    That's actually a very common MMO design now.

    FFXIV routinely buffs their players in power so they can easily crush the existing content in case their skill levels are too low to attempt it. Just before the expansion, they even gave everyone the ability to casually farm the STRONGEST weapons and armor in the game, on equal level with what you find in the top tier raid. All through daily quests. They made access to the raid content easier so these overgeared players could see it just before it all became obsolete with the new expansion.

    Any games with token farms have done the same, making greater and greater rewards available to players to put them on the level of a god in order to easily tackle the most difficult new content. Then there's the Normal mode and Hard mode raids which allow even the casual players to experience the end game even if the hardcore raiders get more out of it.


    End game content was being seen by only 2% of the playerbase. This progression model solves that dilemma and invites less organized and less able players to become addicted to the grind.
  • k2blader
    k2blader
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    @DeanTheCat - You always have thoughtful, helpful things to comment on; thank you for that.

    JMO, the power creep in this game is quite bad (i.e. uncontrolled) when it comes to PvP. I think at this point the only way to properly deal with it is to have tiered campaigns based on level and CPs.

    It's all just a mess really. Nothing about this update actually makes me enjoy playing more. It's just a gross grind to get mats and gold for new/top-line gear so you can actually be competitive. What makes it worse is most of the time no one wants to buy or trade a lot of the new gear set drops at reasonable and even low prices.


    Disabling the grass may improve performance.
  • DaveMoeDee
    DaveMoeDee
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    ✭✭✭
    NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

    Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

    Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.

    I think the import point he makes in relation to your objection is that as power increases, imbalances in class power (or race power) become more of a factor. Kind of like the lack of mobility in the US economy. Those who have resources get to multiply them.
  • Soris
    Soris
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    LordSemaj wrote: »
    Soris wrote: »
    So instead training hard and improving yourself, you need mindlessly grind mobs for months to become destroyer of zergs?

    Did you just said that?

    That's actually a very common MMO design now.

    FFXIV routinely buffs their players in power so they can easily crush the existing content in case their skill levels are too low to attempt it. Just before the expansion, they even gave everyone the ability to casually farm the STRONGEST weapons and armor in the game, on equal level with what you find in the top tier raid. All through daily quests. They made access to the raid content easier so these overgeared players could see it just before it all became obsolete with the new expansion.

    Any games with token farms have done the same, making greater and greater rewards available to players to put them on the level of a god in order to easily tackle the most difficult new content. Then there's the Normal mode and Hard mode raids which allow even the casual players to experience the end game even if the hardcore raiders get more out of it.


    End game content was being seen by only 2% of the playerbase. This progression model solves that dilemma and invites less organized and less able players to become addicted to the grind.

    Yeah but this is ESO. Idk about other games but this one wasn't such a game like that until 1.6. You hadn't have to do braindead grind for either gear or stats. Most end game gear for pvp was just as far away as a couple ingots and tempers.
    Thus the deciding factor was only pure player skill and knowledge of game mechanics instead of how many hours you grind per day. It should have stayed same but we welcomed with more grind in each update after 1.5.
    Edited by Soris on September 24, 2015 3:51PM
    Welkynd [Templar/AD/EU]
  • DaveMoeDee
    DaveMoeDee
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    ✭✭✭
    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    @DeanTheCat Very good post, but I have to disagree.

    Every game or sport or art or skill is based on the principle of "Rewards for Investment" or "Mastery through Practice."
    Players who invest large parts of their time in building knowledge, skills and routines within the framework of the game, should by all means be rewarded for their efforts. If those rewards were capped, and everyone who played the game could achieve the same "excellence" and "advancement" in a casual play style, the game would be pointless!

    In the big and relevant marathon races, there is always a small group of "hard core" racers, who with every race they run, push the envelope of what is humanly possible. Then there are many many others who are fast, very fast, but often more than an hour behind that 'hard core' group in the front! And then you got the tens of thousands who hope that they will be able to finish the race on their feet, and not die of a exhaustion or a heart attack!
    Now, should the front runners be capped for the sake of the pack? The race would be pointless and the marathon would die!

    The dis-balance between casual gamers and intense (hard-core) gamers will always be extreme. If the game did not allow this, there would be no intense gamers and there would be no game at all...it would be Angry Birds.

    In addition, the dis-balance you point out is only relevant in PVP. In PVE your best buddy is the one that can protect you from all the baddies in the world!

    As for selective grouping in PVE: let the VR16 Legends group with each other and sweep up all the trophies, items and loot they want. There are hundreds of other players still wanting to do the same content at lower levels. If you are not a VR16 Legend, don't pretend to be one! And if you are lucky, you may convince a VR16 Legend to run with you and get you that upgrade that you have failed to get on your own!

    On the point of class dis-balance, which you did not get into, I can only suggest that if you think your own class is overpowered by another, roll a new character of that class and see if the class is actually OP, or if you just need to L2P!

    IMO, nerfing a class or skill is always the wrong fix and never a solution. If the lower level players indeed want to be SAFE from higher level players in PVP, then I would suggest to BRACKET the levels and make it impossible to attack a player in another BRACKET than your own!

    just my 2c

    The thing is, ESO is mainly funded by these "Casual" players, who will never hit softcaps, even if they were re-implemented. Back before 1.6 came in and removed soft-caps, most people who you would consider "Casual" didn't even get half the stats needed to hit soft caps. These changes proposed are mainly targeted at the top 5% of the population, who would dominate no matter what situation they were placed in. All that the capping does is that it returns the top 5% from demi-god status into champion status, to make it seem that the "Casuals" could actually have a chance of winning. Nobody likes playing a game where they stood mathematically 0% chance of winning. If all those "Casual" players who you disdain all decided to leave today, I can assure you that ESO will shut down within a month. I do not wish that to happen to a game I enjoy and love.

    I did not delve deeper into the issue of class imbalance as I feel that the problem goes far deeper then a simple "Class Imbalance". The basic mechanics are currently flawed, and the current Buff-Nerf See-Saw is nothing more then treating the symptom rather than the cause. When removing weeds from an otherwise pristine garden, one removes them at the roots, and not just cutting what's visible.

    If my proposed changes were implemented, I stand to lose a lot from these changes, as I'm already pushing the envelope of my class and playstyle to the absolute limit of what is possible. And I can safely say that from my point of view, it is extremely unfair to anyone not within a reasonable margin of my current progress. Many players who I face had mathematically less than 10% chance of winning, and that's not due to my skill, but the sheer stats that I have. I push for these changes not for my own good, but for the good of the game.

    Cyrodiil is designed to be an alliance vs alliance style of combat, and arbitrarily restricting the types of opponents which you can fight hurts the spirit of realm pride, something that is already currently lacking. The non-veteran campaign serves it's purpose as a tutorial, but you should never stop a player from attacking an enemy he can see. The ESO PvP community is already fragmented as it is, and more barriers would render everything pointless.

    In regards for the PvE aspect, I play games (Yes, I do play PvE occasionally) to have a challenge, and I never liked the feeling of "being carried". Therefore, I strive to push myself to the very best I can be. What's the fun for you in PvE when you get your loot, but you never actually earned it yourself? It's nothing more than a hollow victory, knowing that you relied on someone else to get you to where you are. I'm sure I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment. Many people out there want to get the epic loot that we all want, but also want to feel that they actually made an effort to obtain it. Thus it is also needed to cap the power of players in a PvE setting, to ensure that if a team wishes to succeed, they need to all chip in. I'm sure that you would prefer to finish an instance (I know I would) and say "That was tough, but we all worked together, this is our victory!" rather then "Thanks for carrying me through it".

    Another fact is that if player power levels get too high in a PvE setting, the developers will be forced to add artificial difficulty to the game to balance it, usually in the form of cheap mechanics like enrage timers or one-shot mechanics. The challenge will only then be completable by a team of elites with maximum stats, which leaves the average John Doe completely out of it. They will then leave the game due to a lack of content which they can attempt, which brings me back to my original point of ESO being primarily funded by "Casual" players.

    To reiterate, you cannot balance for the top 5%. You balance everyone such that everyone has a chance to compete, instead of completely being locked out because they have mathematically 0% chance to succeed.

    What do you mean by 'winning'?

    My concern with the impact of CP is the danger of scaling difficulty such that it requires a lot of CP. I have about 125 and I'm not planning on trying to grind any past my daily inspiration. I would hope that with some skill and decent gear, I would be able to do most content at the level they were designed for. I am fine dying a lot in PvP, so long as I am having fun with a group. I am not fine with needing to grind CP to complete PvE content. If that isn't the case, than I am fine with the current setup.
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

    Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

    Would you care to explain how it would be possible to create a compelling and challenging dungeon designed for four players working together to clear if one player could solo it?



  • RatedChaotic
    RatedChaotic
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    I just want my stim regen back.
  • DeanTheCat
    DeanTheCat
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DaveMoeDee wrote: »
    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    @DeanTheCat Very good post, but I have to disagree.

    Every game or sport or art or skill is based on the principle of "Rewards for Investment" or "Mastery through Practice."
    Players who invest large parts of their time in building knowledge, skills and routines within the framework of the game, should by all means be rewarded for their efforts. If those rewards were capped, and everyone who played the game could achieve the same "excellence" and "advancement" in a casual play style, the game would be pointless!

    In the big and relevant marathon races, there is always a small group of "hard core" racers, who with every race they run, push the envelope of what is humanly possible. Then there are many many others who are fast, very fast, but often more than an hour behind that 'hard core' group in the front! And then you got the tens of thousands who hope that they will be able to finish the race on their feet, and not die of a exhaustion or a heart attack!
    Now, should the front runners be capped for the sake of the pack? The race would be pointless and the marathon would die!

    The dis-balance between casual gamers and intense (hard-core) gamers will always be extreme. If the game did not allow this, there would be no intense gamers and there would be no game at all...it would be Angry Birds.

    In addition, the dis-balance you point out is only relevant in PVP. In PVE your best buddy is the one that can protect you from all the baddies in the world!

    As for selective grouping in PVE: let the VR16 Legends group with each other and sweep up all the trophies, items and loot they want. There are hundreds of other players still wanting to do the same content at lower levels. If you are not a VR16 Legend, don't pretend to be one! And if you are lucky, you may convince a VR16 Legend to run with you and get you that upgrade that you have failed to get on your own!

    On the point of class dis-balance, which you did not get into, I can only suggest that if you think your own class is overpowered by another, roll a new character of that class and see if the class is actually OP, or if you just need to L2P!

    IMO, nerfing a class or skill is always the wrong fix and never a solution. If the lower level players indeed want to be SAFE from higher level players in PVP, then I would suggest to BRACKET the levels and make it impossible to attack a player in another BRACKET than your own!

    just my 2c

    The thing is, ESO is mainly funded by these "Casual" players, who will never hit softcaps, even if they were re-implemented. Back before 1.6 came in and removed soft-caps, most people who you would consider "Casual" didn't even get half the stats needed to hit soft caps. These changes proposed are mainly targeted at the top 5% of the population, who would dominate no matter what situation they were placed in. All that the capping does is that it returns the top 5% from demi-god status into champion status, to make it seem that the "Casuals" could actually have a chance of winning. Nobody likes playing a game where they stood mathematically 0% chance of winning. If all those "Casual" players who you disdain all decided to leave today, I can assure you that ESO will shut down within a month. I do not wish that to happen to a game I enjoy and love.

    I did not delve deeper into the issue of class imbalance as I feel that the problem goes far deeper then a simple "Class Imbalance". The basic mechanics are currently flawed, and the current Buff-Nerf See-Saw is nothing more then treating the symptom rather than the cause. When removing weeds from an otherwise pristine garden, one removes them at the roots, and not just cutting what's visible.

    If my proposed changes were implemented, I stand to lose a lot from these changes, as I'm already pushing the envelope of my class and playstyle to the absolute limit of what is possible. And I can safely say that from my point of view, it is extremely unfair to anyone not within a reasonable margin of my current progress. Many players who I face had mathematically less than 10% chance of winning, and that's not due to my skill, but the sheer stats that I have. I push for these changes not for my own good, but for the good of the game.

    Cyrodiil is designed to be an alliance vs alliance style of combat, and arbitrarily restricting the types of opponents which you can fight hurts the spirit of realm pride, something that is already currently lacking. The non-veteran campaign serves it's purpose as a tutorial, but you should never stop a player from attacking an enemy he can see. The ESO PvP community is already fragmented as it is, and more barriers would render everything pointless.

    In regards for the PvE aspect, I play games (Yes, I do play PvE occasionally) to have a challenge, and I never liked the feeling of "being carried". Therefore, I strive to push myself to the very best I can be. What's the fun for you in PvE when you get your loot, but you never actually earned it yourself? It's nothing more than a hollow victory, knowing that you relied on someone else to get you to where you are. I'm sure I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment. Many people out there want to get the epic loot that we all want, but also want to feel that they actually made an effort to obtain it. Thus it is also needed to cap the power of players in a PvE setting, to ensure that if a team wishes to succeed, they need to all chip in. I'm sure that you would prefer to finish an instance (I know I would) and say "That was tough, but we all worked together, this is our victory!" rather then "Thanks for carrying me through it".

    Another fact is that if player power levels get too high in a PvE setting, the developers will be forced to add artificial difficulty to the game to balance it, usually in the form of cheap mechanics like enrage timers or one-shot mechanics. The challenge will only then be completable by a team of elites with maximum stats, which leaves the average John Doe completely out of it. They will then leave the game due to a lack of content which they can attempt, which brings me back to my original point of ESO being primarily funded by "Casual" players.

    To reiterate, you cannot balance for the top 5%. You balance everyone such that everyone has a chance to compete, instead of completely being locked out because they have mathematically 0% chance to succeed.

    What do you mean by 'winning'?

    My concern with the impact of CP is the danger of scaling difficulty such that it requires a lot of CP. I have about 125 and I'm not planning on trying to grind any past my daily inspiration. I would hope that with some skill and decent gear, I would be able to do most content at the level they were designed for. I am fine dying a lot in PvP, so long as I am having fun with a group. I am not fine with needing to grind CP to complete PvE content. If that isn't the case, than I am fine with the current setup.

    My point of views are usually from a PvP perspective, as that's the part of ESO I spend most of my time in. "Winning" in this case refers to winning a skirmish with opposing players when the numbers are more or less equal. This is when CP matters the most, as CP allows you to take on more numbers then otherwise would be possible for another equally geared player but with less CP. These days, I can more or less know the outcome of a fight before the fight before the fight even begins. Player skill is slowly but surely being overshadowed by player gearing and time invested. Although I earned my gear and CP, I don't feel exactly comfortable knowing that the opponents I fight have no chance at all to defeat me.

    The balancing for CP is already showing itself in PvE as well as PvP. WGT and ICP are near impossible to complete on Veteran mode without at least 300 CP, as evidenced by hordes of bullet-sponge enemies and unforgiving one shots from mobs. You already need to grind CP to be relevant. Those who fail to do so are rendered obsolete. This is why power must be capped, to ensure there is never too big a difference between the 5% then everyone else. Then the devs can start balancing for skill, instead of balancing for overinflated stats.
    Dean the Cat
    Somewhat Insane Puddicat
    EU-PC Megaserver; Ebonheart Pact, Alliance Rank 34
    This one hails from far Singapore, excuse this one for his high pings. He also apologizes for any formatting/spelling errors, as he tends to answer using a mobile device.

    Insanity is the price of Knowledge. Herma-Mora and Sheogorath, this one bows before thee.

    This one does not advocate for any class to be nerfed. There are far deeper underlying issues then a simple "Class Imbalance". The Champion System is the problem. Not classes.

    Please read this before creating yet another nerf thread.

    My guides:
  • RatedChaotic
    RatedChaotic
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    Might aswell give everyone the same gear,cp points, stats, and abilities on both bars. Guess people will be happier then.
  • DaveMoeDee
    DaveMoeDee
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    ✭✭✭
    Wollust wrote: »
    I used to be a PVEr and casual PVPer in 1.5. Back then you had to gear up and any further increase in DPS would be only about skills and with no infinite growth in power. Then 1.6 hit, softcaps were removed and championsystem inplemented. We struggled in the beginning, but once we found out builds, our DPS went through the roof, allowing us to skip most of the mechanics in dungeons and trials. Now if this wasn't already a problem, the championsystem allowed us to outperform ourselves day by day, by grinding those mobs and making it harder and harder for newer players to perform like that. Everything in PVE got so boring that I changed to PVP in june. While the championsystem also applies here, it had a much lower impact but would still mean a decent advantage of course. And now with 1.7, proper gearing is hard and making the distance between those casual players and players like ourselves with V16 gear and way above average CP even bigger, which in the end promotes the zergmentality. (Btw, DPS in PVE is now even more disgustingly high than in 1.6)
    The removal of softcaps and the championpointsystem is what is causing the constant crying for nerfs. And I'm pretty sure ZOS knows, but they can't and won't just back up from their much anticipated, but dissappointing stuff. Which is why this game will kill itself in the end.

    Totally not true. I've been playing since the Beta in Feb. 2014, and there has ALWAYS been whining and begging for nerfs, mostly from PvP players who don't care if they screw up the PvE game.

    Amen. I remember a rebalance around month 2 after launched that really annoyed me. I learned from guildies that bashing was overpowered. All I could think was how my character didn't seem overpowered when doing Cadwell's Gold quests because my damage was horrible and blocking and bashing allowed me to survive. I remember how annoying it was to have to start from scratch in figuring out how to play my character when I was trying to enjoy the content. I didn't care if people were spamming bash in PvP. Similarly, there were probably a lot of PvP players who don't care about the impact of their requested changes on people trying to enjoy the content of the game during their first run-through.

    With people doing solo PvE, group dungeons, trials, group PvP, 1v1, 1vX, and IC content, we have 7 different contexts where skills can builds can be evaluated. Any one skill will not work right in at least one of these contexts, either being OP or useless. There is no way that they can optimize balance in all 7 contexts.

    I can't wait until we have people complaining that class X is underpowered because you can solo a trial with the other 3 classes but not that one. Let's add an 8th level of analysis!

    Add to this that people then complain about class v. class. That gives us 12 more ways to complain (assuming that you shouldn't complain that your DK can't kill a DK when complaining about balance). Add stamina v magicka to that and the math might be more like 8 possible builds (#class * #attributes) x 7 other builds, for 56 ways to complain. Multiply that times all the different contexts mentioned above, and we can have people complaining forever.
  • DaveMoeDee
    DaveMoeDee
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    ✭✭✭
    Might aswell give everyone the same gear,cp points, stats, and abilities on both bars. Guess people will be happier then.

    Let that be the future of BWB.
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