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The root of the problem - A lack of limits

  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
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    All of this sounds both more complicated and more confusing than softcaps would be.

    A dashboard of a car is much more simple than the engine....that engine is like the ESO game mechanics complicated

    This thread is not about that simple dashboard

    but is about preventing "simple" nerfs all the time caused by ZOS and whining players, affecting playing the game by many

    like the Stamina Recovery nerf and many other "simple" nerfs

    Edited by hrothbern on November 18, 2015 12:14PM
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • ragnarok6644b14_ESO
    hrothbern wrote: »
    All of this sounds both more complicated and more confusing than softcaps would be.

    A dashboard of a car is much more simple than the engine....that engine is like the ESO game mechanics complicated

    This thread is not about that simple dashboard

    but is about preventing "simple" nerfs all the time caused by ZOS and whining players, affecting playing the game by many

    like the Stamina Recovery nerf and many other "simple" nerfs

    Yes but complexity "under the hood" as it were is a bad thing. If everything is a barely-held-together patchwork of interlocking things that are in very complex relationships to one another, changing a single variable can have unintended and sometimes drastic consequences on another part of the game. In fact, we already know this is a problem ESO patches have - attempts to fix one problem cause another, because it is too complex under the hood.

    Softcaps mitigate the complexity.
  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
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    hrothbern wrote: »
    All of this sounds both more complicated and more confusing than softcaps would be.

    A dashboard of a car is much more simple than the engine....that engine is like the ESO game mechanics complicated

    This thread is not about that simple dashboard

    but is about preventing "simple" nerfs all the time caused by ZOS and whining players, affecting playing the game by many

    like the Stamina Recovery nerf and many other "simple" nerfs

    Yes but complexity "under the hood" as it were is a bad thing. If everything is a barely-held-together patchwork of interlocking things that are in very complex relationships to one another, changing a single variable can have unintended and sometimes drastic consequences on another part of the game. In fact, we already know this is a problem ESO patches have - attempts to fix one problem cause another, because it is too complex under the hood.

    Softcaps mitigate the complexity.

    Softcaps mitigate the complexity
    @ragnarok6644b14_ESO ,

    I am also kind of afraid that "under the hood" is a feeble structure.
    Anyway... I see the caps as a generic symptom treatment, a bit of a rough remedy, that will cure the extremities that are bad for the average player base, but will also prevent harmless niche builds that people really would like to play.

    Pragmatical we are on the same page there :)

    But we should realise that we add another fix to the patchwork. That is not good for a game engine that should last many years as a solid platform for many DLC's to come!!!
    That's why I took a principal stance to get the root-balance adressed. I believe that is doable :)
    Very well knowing that "the best is the enemy of the good"


    EDIT
    But also very well knowing that when the issue is not hot anymore, structural solutions will never happen anymore.

    Edited by hrothbern on November 18, 2015 1:20PM
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • willymchilybily
    willymchilybily
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    An interesting read. Two points though

    I believe they nerfed damage in cyrodil before ic. Because ttk was too short, so your whole spiel is kind of off. In fact people were doing what you describe back in 1.6. Kind of makes one think blaming gear is incorrect, and question what else is incorrect within this argument

    Also If V16 gear is significantly better in terms of stat boosting, that it is an order of magnitude stronger than previous gear raising v14 gear just creates a new plateaux instead of v16s taking on several guys it will be v14 and v16. This goes against creating equality and really just sounds like you want to buff your old v14 sets so you can use them competitively. Pushing ones own agendas, even subtlety, diminishes the weight of your other arguments

    Basically you had the potential to really push the envelope but All I take from this is you like the idea of soft caps, and wish your v14 gear was more competitive. I agree that reducing the scaling on champion points may reduce dissparity, but ZOS have already gone a different way on it.
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  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
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    An interesting read. Two points though

    I believe they nerfed damage in cyrodil before ic. Because ttk was too short, so your whole spiel is kind of off. In fact people were doing what you describe back in 1.6. Kind of makes one think blaming gear is incorrect, and question what else is incorrect within this argument

    Also If V16 gear is significantly better in terms of stat boosting, that it is an order of magnitude stronger than previous gear raising v14 gear just creates a new plateaux instead of v16s taking on several guys it will be v14 and v16. This goes against creating equality and really just sounds like you want to buff your old v14 sets so you can use them competitively. Pushing ones own agendas, even subtlety, diminishes the weight of your other arguments

    Basically you had the potential to really push the envelope but All I take from this is you like the idea of soft caps, and wish your v14 gear was more competitive. I agree that reducing the scaling on champion points may reduce dissparity, but ZOS have already gone a different way on it.

    @willymchilybily,

    You do not quote the lines on which you react, makes it difficult to understand what you say...

    What I know about the damage nerf in Cyrodilil/IC is that healing was nerfed similar. So "zero" effect on player comparison. But perhaps you mean something else?

    If I would be V14 (I am V16 with 310 CP) or argumenting on behalf of V14's.... Well... I do not. But I am not that concerned about these differences. With the removal of Vet ranks, we will see probably a big change there. Have to wait and see and move from there.

    As as already said in my posts: I do not like soft caps. They are fundamentally wrong, lazy and symptom treatment.
    But I'd rather have the quick fix of a soft cap, than quick fixes all over the place because of unbalances, like the Stamina nerf.
    And again, I am not biased on trhis Stamina nerf because I would really need it, although I am a tank. I can cope with the nerf. But the work around for Stamina is not player friendly anymore, neither is the micromanagement on the Stamina.

    Edited by hrothbern on November 18, 2015 2:51PM
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • idk
    idk
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    Jammer480 wrote: »
    Brilliant thread and discussion...now just need ZOS to listen.

    More like poorly thought out and comes from a limited perspective leading to an illogical conclusion. We had soft caps before and it failed horribly. The game would need a complete major overhaul to change how it works for soft caps to be beneficial.

    Yea, not only poorly worded but not thought out.
  • willymchilybily
    willymchilybily
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    hrothbern wrote: »
    An interesting read. Two points though

    I believe they nerfed damage in cyrodil before ic. Because ttk was too short, so your whole spiel is kind of off. In fact people were doing what you describe back in 1.6. Kind of makes one think blaming gear is incorrect, and question what else is incorrect within this argument

    Also If V16 gear is significantly better in terms of stat boosting, that it is an order of magnitude stronger than previous gear raising v14 gear just creates a new plateaux instead of v16s taking on several guys it will be v14 and v16. This goes against creating equality and really just sounds like you want to buff your old v14 sets so you can use them competitively. Pushing ones own agendas, even subtlety, diminishes the weight of your other arguments

    Basically you had the potential to really push the envelope but All I take from this is you like the idea of soft caps, and wish your v14 gear was more competitive. I agree that reducing the scaling on champion points may reduce dissparity, but ZOS have already gone a different way on it.

    @willymchilybily,

    You do not quote the lines on which you react, makes it difficult to understand what you say...

    What I know about the damage nerf in Cyrodilil/IC is that healing was nerfed similar. So "zero" effect on player comparison. But perhaps you mean something else?

    @hrothbern ...damn you man you know how hard it is to quote wall of text from phone?

    deane said
    To balance the sheer power of VR16 gear in it's current form, a 50% damage nerf had to be applied to Cyrodiil. What this has done is render everyone except the armed-to-the-teeth VR16 characters with fully kitted out gear irrelevant in the grand scheme, and has created literal walking gods amongst the population.

    Which is completely false, they introduced the new battle spirit effects at the same time as releasing IC. At which point no one was v16 geared. It was done simply to increase "time to kill" because it was too quick. Blaming v16 gear for something happening before v16 gear undermines his whole argument. And actually any point he makes using that as the basis becomes worthless
    3) Reduce the effectiveness of VR16 gear OR buff VR14 gear to be somewhat competitive with VR16 Gear. This allows lower VR players/undergeared players to be somewhat relevant, instead of being completely obsolete in the current state of affairs. This will even out the sheer amount of stat difference between the players, and promote varied builds while keeping power creep under control. There are many sets at VR12 and VR14 that are interesting to use, but the sheer power of VR16 gear renders them obsolete in anything but the most focused builds.

    if there is such difference in strength between v14 and v16 the above suggestion just pushes this gap in strength down the food chain to v12 vs v14. It is not a fix or of any benefit what so ever. It just allows people with v14 gear to use it and be competitive. Which smacks of "I want to be able to use my old v14 gear and be nearly as good as v16" promoting ideas for ones own agenda discredits any good points made by the post.
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  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
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    @willymchilybily,

    haha

    how could I know...

    thanks for your full post ;)
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • DeanTheCat
    DeanTheCat
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    An interesting read. Two points though

    I believe they nerfed damage in cyrodil before ic. Because ttk was too short, so your whole spiel is kind of off. In fact people were doing what you describe back in 1.6. Kind of makes one think blaming gear is incorrect, and question what else is incorrect within this argument

    Also If V16 gear is significantly better in terms of stat boosting, that it is an order of magnitude stronger than previous gear raising v14 gear just creates a new plateaux instead of v16s taking on several guys it will be v14 and v16. This goes against creating equality and really just sounds like you want to buff your old v14 sets so you can use them competitively. Pushing ones own agendas, even subtlety, diminishes the weight of your other arguments

    Basically you had the potential to really push the envelope but All I take from this is you like the idea of soft caps, and wish your v14 gear was more competitive. I agree that reducing the scaling on champion points may reduce dissparity, but ZOS have already gone a different way on it.

    @willymchilybily:

    I deconstructed my VR14 gear a long time ago, and I'm using fully kitted out Legendary VR16 gear with Kuta Enchantments. At the time of writing this post (Which was incidentally 3 months ago), I was the first few that completed a set of VR16 weapons and armor (I think I got my legendary weapons on patch day?), and most of the foes I faced was using VR14 equipment. They had nearly no chance especially compounded by my then 300 odd CP. I have absolutely no interest in using my VR14 gear seeing as I have completed my VR16 set.

    As I stated in my post, my only "Agenda" is a more or less fair playing field for everyone, and I'm advocating for the weakest. Can you imagine what would have happened if everyone ran around with today's attribute values using 1.6's damage reduction? You would simply just sneeze on someone, and they will implode. The fact that the damage mitigation raise came in at the same time when the power of gear was massively increased makes me feel that the two are connected. In addition, back then, VR14 was the time when battle levelling was no longer available, and therefore VR14s felt the real sting from the lack of gear. The current battle levelling system implemented more or less fixes the issue caused by gear, though only in PvP. The issue still remains in PvE.
    Dean the Cat
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    Please read this before creating yet another nerf thread.

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  • willymchilybily
    willymchilybily
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    Of course Dean, It wasn't meant to sound like I was attacking you or your ideas, and I didn't mean to make it sound like I was implying they were self serving. Apologies if that's how it sounded. just critiquing the way built your argument up gave a bad impression that could be viewed with negative connotations. Not that I believe those said connotations. I still think the battle spirit change was introduced to improve the ic dlc experience (one shot in ic would be horrible). Opposed to balance v16 gear's power.

    And of course viewing this post from the perspective of a ps4 user is very different from viewing it at pc level where most players had v14 gear and said changes you suggested could make v16 vs v14 fairer. My own experiences indicated the majority of console users were not at v14 when V16 was introduced and few had full veteran gear sets. so buffing v14 would do very little but change the position of that power leap. Achieving little for pvp on consoles. But as you say things have changed since the original post.
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  • Merlight
    Merlight
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    hrothbern wrote: »
    As as already said in my posts: I do not like soft caps. They are fundamentally wrong, lazy and symptom treatment.
    I'm going to agree with "lazy" here. As in: by diligently discarding caps, ZOS made the task of balancing the game more difficult for themselves. Sometimes laziness is a virtue. Caps are more like vaccine than treatment.
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  • DeanTheCat
    DeanTheCat
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    Of course Dean, It wasn't meant to sound like I was attacking you or your ideas, and I didn't mean to make it sound like I was implying they were self serving. Apologies if that's how it sounded. just critiquing the way built your argument up gave a bad impression that could be viewed with negative connotations. Not that I believe those said connotations. I still think the battle spirit change was introduced to improve the ic dlc experience (one shot in ic would be horrible). Opposed to balance v16 gear's power.

    And of course viewing this post from the perspective of a ps4 user is very different from viewing it at pc level where most players had v14 gear and said changes you suggested could make v16 vs v14 fairer. My own experiences indicated the majority of console users were not at v14 when V16 was introduced and few had full veteran gear sets. so buffing v14 would do very little but change the position of that power leap. Achieving little for pvp on consoles. But as you say things have changed since the original post.

    @willymchilybily:

    The gear issues isn't that big of a problem anymore nowadays, due to ZOS implementing dynamic battle leveling that scaled with you up to VR16, to which I applaud them for making that change. The main reasoning however when I wrote the post in regards to the gear was the battle leveling used to be only effective till VR13, and you no longer had the option of using the massively boosted stats that battle leveling offered when you reached VR14.

    This effectively made VR14 characters the bottom of the food chain when Imperial City hit (Which brought in VR16). It was quite jarring to suddenly lose your stats that you had when you were battle-leveled, in addition to having to grind gear sets twice (Once for VR14 gear to survive, another time for VR16 gear to actually compete). It created a huge gulf between the VR16 players and VR14-15 players, especially since most of the benefit of VR16 gear only makes itself apparent between Epic -> Legendary, something you wouldn't do (Upgrade your gear to legendary)for your transition gear between VR14-15.

    The new battle leveling system now allows lower VR players to have the stats of a decently geared VR16 character, provided that proper planning was done for their build and they are bothering to update their gear as they leveled. This allows for a less of a disconnect between the stats they have currently and the stats they will finally have when they manage to obtain VR16 gear. Which in turns makes the lower VRs competitive gear wise, though the issue of the champion system still remains.

    I can imagine how this would have looked from the point of view of a console player, as due to official statistics about active veteran accounts Champion Point Averages for console being somewhere round 40 last month, I would assume that most of the players on console haven't even reached VR14 (Which you confirmed) when VR16 came out, and I think most of them are just managing to complete their 1st VR16 armor set as I write this. I don't blame you in your phrasing of your post; I would have most likely done the same if I played on console and not on PC as the environment I know would have been completely different.

    Ultimately, I like the new direction that ZOS is taking to improve the game (though albeit slowly) and create a fairer playing field for all. Now they just need to fix the performance issues plaguing the game, and I think we'll have a fun and enjoyable game to play for quite a while.
    hrothbern wrote: »

    As as already said in my posts: I do not like soft caps. They are fundamentally wrong, lazy and symptom treatment.
    But I'd rather have the quick fix of a soft cap, than quick fixes all over the place because of unbalances, like the Stamina nerf.
    And again, I am not biased on trhis Stamina nerf because I would really need it, although I am a tank. I can cope with the nerf. But the work around for Stamina is not player friendly anymore, neither is the micromanagement on the Stamina.

    @hrothbern

    Sometimes it's better to staunch the bleeding, then to let the patient die because first aid wasn't rendered. Soft caps punish those who have the capability to push the envelope, but that's only at most 5% of the playerbase. It's better to use softcaps to rein in the outliers, then to have the rest of the playerbase suffer at the mercy of the 5% (Which is what veteran content is balanced around nowadays it seems, look at vMSA, pre-nerf vWGT and pre-nerf vICP). I don't deny its a quick fix, but it's one that would make balancing this game a much easier job for ZOS if they didn't have to deal with things like 16k tooltip Wrecking Blows or 20k tooltip Hardened Wards (PvE).

    At the end of the day, what we need is a balanced fun environment. Currently, there is only 1-2 "Best optimal" builds for every class/spec, and that is being cookie cutter to the extreme. Softcaps help prevent "Bad builds" by ensuring that stat stackers cannot pull too far ahead of a "Normal" player. Softcaps encourage diversification and alternative stats, due to the diminishing returns that set in after you go over Softcap.You can still go for a max stat stacking build, but it won't be as effective or as dominant as it is today.
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    Insanity is the price of Knowledge. Herma-Mora and Sheogorath, this one bows before thee.

    This one does not advocate for any class to be nerfed. There are far deeper underlying issues then a simple "Class Imbalance". The Champion System is the problem. Not classes.

    Please read this before creating yet another nerf thread.

    My guides:
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    Sometimes it's better to staunch the bleeding, then to let the patient die because first aid wasn't rendered. Soft caps punish those who have the capability to push the envelope, but that's only at most 5% of the playerbase. It's better to use softcaps to rein in the outliers, then to have the rest of the playerbase suffer at the mercy of the 5% (Which is what veteran content is balanced around nowadays it seems, look at vMSA, pre-nerf vWGT and pre-nerf vICP). I don't deny its a quick fix, but it's one that would make balancing this game a much easier job for ZOS if they didn't have to deal with things like 16k tooltip Wrecking Blows or 20k tooltip Hardened Wards (PvE).

    At the end of the day, what we need is a balanced fun environment. Currently, there is only 1-2 "Best optimal" builds for every class/spec, and that is being cookie cutter to the extreme. Softcaps help prevent "Bad builds" by ensuring that stat stackers cannot pull too far ahead of a "Normal" player. Softcaps encourage diversification and alternative stats, due to the diminishing returns that set in after you go over Softcap.You can still go for a max stat stacking build, but it won't be as effective or as dominant as it is today.

    I'm not sure soft caps even punish the people who push the envelope. Player skill will always be a factor, and the removal of softcaps doesn't remove character optimization. What it does however is make the stark contrasts in power not quite as possible, and that's a good thing. For the longevity and fun of the game, it is much better when we are on a more even footing than a game with people who are excessively stronger than one another. Where is the challenge or fun in that? This element of fun is what keeps the game going.
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  • DeanTheCat
    DeanTheCat
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    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    Sometimes it's better to staunch the bleeding, then to let the patient die because first aid wasn't rendered. Soft caps punish those who have the capability to push the envelope, but that's only at most 5% of the playerbase. It's better to use softcaps to rein in the outliers, then to have the rest of the playerbase suffer at the mercy of the 5% (Which is what veteran content is balanced around nowadays it seems, look at vMSA, pre-nerf vWGT and pre-nerf vICP). I don't deny its a quick fix, but it's one that would make balancing this game a much easier job for ZOS if they didn't have to deal with things like 16k tooltip Wrecking Blows or 20k tooltip Hardened Wards (PvE).

    At the end of the day, what we need is a balanced fun environment. Currently, there is only 1-2 "Best optimal" builds for every class/spec, and that is being cookie cutter to the extreme. Softcaps help prevent "Bad builds" by ensuring that stat stackers cannot pull too far ahead of a "Normal" player. Softcaps encourage diversification and alternative stats, due to the diminishing returns that set in after you go over Softcap.You can still go for a max stat stacking build, but it won't be as effective or as dominant as it is today.

    I'm not sure soft caps even punish the people who push the envelope. Player skill will always be a factor, and the removal of softcaps doesn't remove character optimization. What it does however is make the stark contrasts in power not quite as possible, and that's a good thing. For the longevity and fun of the game, it is much better when we are on a more even footing than a game with people who are excessively stronger than one another. Where is the challenge or fun in that? This element of fun is what keeps the game going.

    @dodgehopper_ESO

    True, I should have worded that better. I was looking from the perspective that the people who can push the envelope, currently often have double the stats of the average Joe. With softcaps, this value would at most be 40-50% more stats, thereby "punishing" them (As evidenced by certain posters in this thread who I shall not name).

    Still, ultimately you and I want the same thing in the end. A fun, more or less fair playing environment. We just have different ways of phrasing it :smile:
    Dean the Cat
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    This one hails from far Singapore, excuse this one for his high pings. He also apologizes for any formatting/spelling errors, as he tends to answer using a mobile device.

    Insanity is the price of Knowledge. Herma-Mora and Sheogorath, this one bows before thee.

    This one does not advocate for any class to be nerfed. There are far deeper underlying issues then a simple "Class Imbalance". The Champion System is the problem. Not classes.

    Please read this before creating yet another nerf thread.

    My guides:
  • Rune_Relic
    Rune_Relic
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    I only really have one objection for a well thought out and amusing Post.
    Well done by the way.

    From my memory with soft caps...rather than have unique builds.
    Everyone maxxed out magicka stamina and health a lot of the time.
    So even the soft capped balance was bad.

    It left some builds that were good at everything and others struggled to just cap one.
    It left us with FOTM OP builds that hit most of the caps through one means or another.
    These builds soloed dungeons as the dungeons werent designed around everything being capped.
    As many people weren't.

    In principal I agree with you on the power creep issue though.
    Especially with the damage CP has done with stamina/magicka/health multiplyers as well as the passives.
    Instead of having those people that capped everything....we just have the people that max out everything instead....getting more and more powerful as quick as they can.

    I can actually say ...years ago now, I came up with a concept of auto balancing combat with ways to do it.
    My argument was ZOS will never balance combat manually.
    My argument was it was an unnecessary waste of time and money on something that could and should be automated.
    So here we are years later.... same old stuff....same position.

    How much time was wasted bringing DLCs to the table trying to get combat working properly.
    Do it once. Do it right.
    Measure thrice. Cut once.
    Edited by Rune_Relic on December 13, 2015 5:31PM
    Anything that can be exploited will be exploited
  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    The front page of the general forums is awash with nerf threads again. This post is as timeless as ever. Without severe changes to the meta and attribute stacking, we will always have abilities that can be spammed. We need to revisit the champion system and soft-caps before this game turns into cooldown city.
  • Essiaga
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    I agree with the original poster.

    Caps can be capped with out having caps though. WTH did I say? So if you can only obtain 20k magicka with yellowed out v16 gear with mix and match or MIN/MAXed gear then there's the cap. However to reach that cap you should sacrifice other stats that matter.

    Stamina users can use magica for their buffs and class abilities.
    Magicka users can use stam for Dodge, Block and Break Free.
    As long as the damage is high enough then people will be balancing in either mitigation or health for survival.

    CP shouldn't give you maxed stats. There's already to many gaps between players in this game and the grind they've added in the DLC along with broken classes ... it's almost impossible for me to play.

    Some classes get max to stats in their passives that other classes do not. With Caps in place these classes would be more Balanced. As it is now those who can stack Spell/Weapon Damage are kings, as they also provide the passive resources, etc.

    In addition to what you mentioned I'd say the 2-5pc sets have caused imbalance power creep, and apparently lag. Every update they seem to give people exactly what they ask for in gear sets, more weapon/spell power. There's no way under the current structure of gear they'll be able to come up with better sets with out increasing max level and therefore stats, adding crazy unique procts, adding 6pc bonus, etc.

    They also started handing out buffs that were class based to everyone due to customer request. Major/Minor damage/crit buffs, etc.

    Racial selections made on day 1 are so much worse now then they ever were then. God forbid you thought you were going to do magicka and then changed your mind and speced stamina, or vise versa. So few months down the drain. Just grind out a new toon ... then find you need to level crafting to harvest. Quest time.

    Gaps and power creep might seem nice for those who like to just win, win, win ... frankly I don't mind dying or losing. My self worth is not wrapped up in a video game. Being a God stinks. I'd rather have some competition. Imaging skydiving ... but with out the thrill you get from danger. Why bother?
  • MisterBigglesworth
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    Just to re-cap (and merge changes with known changes coming):
    • Reinstate a softer version of Softcaps.
    • Reduce the bonuses from the Champion System.
    • Reduce the effectiveness of VR16 CP160 gear OR buff VR14 CP140 gear to be somewhat competitive with VR16 CP160 Gear.
    • (PVP)Revert various nerfs to siege engines. coming soon!

    Please, ZOS... get it done...
    Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.
  • danno8
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    Instead of soft-caps on stats we now have "soft cooldowns" on streak, dodge and (soon to be, probably) stealth.

    It's silly. Stat caps are better imo, they just need to be higher and actually require effort to reach.
  • Galbrant
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    I haven't reach high enough level yet to get champion points yet so forgive my ignorance... but if the cp system is the cause of problems maybe disable the cp chart when pvping?
  • Turelus
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    Galbrant wrote: »
    I haven't reach high enough level yet to get champion points yet so forgive my ignorance... but if the cp system is the cause of problems maybe disable the cp chart when pvping?

    They're talking about this with a new campaign option.

    This sounded very interested at first until many players realised how horrible this could turn out. The Battlespirit buff/debuff values were balanced around CP and the power that gave players. Without CP these values will be pretty hardcore and you could end up in a situation where players just do so little damage or have so low resources they can't actually kill each other.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    Galbrant wrote: »
    I haven't reach high enough level yet to get champion points yet so forgive my ignorance... but if the cp system is the cause of problems maybe disable the cp chart when pvping?

    This is a good suggestion and ZOS is planning to create a campaign without champion points, as well as remove champion points from the non-vet campaign. Both of these changes are steps in the right direction however, there is still greater problem.

    Many of the recent nerfs to abilities (i.e the stacking streak costs), and to game mechanics (no regen while blocking, stacking dodge roll cost) were put in place to control some of the ridiculous builds one could create with no soft-caps and high champion points. Without any champion points, these penalties will seem overly harsh and could create a false impression that the champion system is needed.

    When people constantly run out of resources, they are going to abandon the No-CP campaign preferring the easymode of extra resources. The no-cp campaign might fail in the same way that Axe of Belhazra failed by being the only campaign with gated Imperial City added. Its like voluntary austerity measures in a bankrupt country. It never works.

    What a lot of people don't know is that before 1.6, your character had higher stats. Some of those stats were taken away (with the health nerf, and other reductions) and buried within the champion system (so you were forced to grind it back). What people also don't know is that the champion system actually increases your attributes (magicka, health, stam) for points placed in the respective trees. Removing the champion system doesn't get you back where you were in 1.5. It leaves you weaker than 1.5.


    TL;DR: Like what @Turelus said, the current game was balanced (and nerfed) around the champion system. Removing champion points without re-balancing (and un-nerfing) might create a false confirmation that the champion system is needed and necessary.
    Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on December 20, 2015 7:15PM
  • JamilaRaj
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    Turelus wrote: »
    This sounded very interested at first until many players realised how horrible this could turn out. The Battlespirit buff/debuff values were balanced around CP and the power that gave players. Without CP these values will be pretty hardcore and you could end up in a situation where players just do so little damage or have so low resources they can't actually kill each other.

    I doubt any balancing took place. They might have just wanted players not to die like flies in the IC, as that could hurt sales, so they rolled out the idiot patch with reduced damage through the battle spirit.
    Remarkably, as the noob campaign will have to be converted into non CP campaign (and I wonder if level 50 chars will be kicked out or not - there is a huge difference), it went from somewhat okay damage (but not okay resources) through virtually no damage to ridiculous damage (unless it is siege engine or a guard; these remain stuck in the wet noodle era) in like three months. So, based on that, a disaster is to be expected in any case.
    Edited by JamilaRaj on December 21, 2015 1:25AM
  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    JamilaRaj wrote: »
    I doubt any balancing took place. They might have just wanted players not to die like flies in the IC, as that could hurt sales, so they rolled out the idiot patch with reduced damage through the battle spirit.


    Don't forget they also made charge skills un-dodgeable so you are rooted in place whenever people use gap closers and your gap closers hit 100% of the time so you can lock people down.

    CC immunity isn't real any more. Immovable, and other abilities don't effect this unblockable unbreakable stun/snare/root and occasional silence. If that isn't an idiot patch i don't know what is.
  • olsborg
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    I think instead of nerfing everything, maybe players as a general should get an armor and resistance boost whilst in cyrodiil so that they cant be bursted down quite so easily.
    Altmer Sorceror, magicka
    Bosmer Nightblade, stamina.
    Imperial Templar, stamina
    Redguard Warden, stamina

    Aldmeri Dominion!
    PC EU
    PvP only
  • hrothbern
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    olsborg wrote: »
    I think instead of nerfing everything, maybe players as a general should get an armor and resistance boost whilst in cyrodiil so that they cant be bursted down quite so easily.

    or replace the trait "Well-fitted" by a trait against Penetration,
    in the same way the trait "Impenetrable" protects against Critical Damage.

    I believe a specific counter against Penetration is more in place than a general debuff of penetration.
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • Solariken
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    Bravo, OP. I agree with almost everything. Even still, I think there are some abilities and playstyles that need some adjustments which may result in perceived nerfs (Hardened Ward). True balance requires a robust system of meaningful strengths and weaknesses for every class.
  • OGLezard
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    Solariken wrote: »
    Bravo, OP. I agree with almost everything. Even still, I think there are some abilities and playstyles that need some adjustments which may result in perceived nerfs (Hardened Ward). True balance requires a robust system of meaningful strengths and weaknesses for every class.

    Here we go again. Nerf sorcs...oh sorry I meant "adjust harden ward" if you still can't stop those shields and refuse to use shield breaker, then it is most def time to adjust your build and gear choices.
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