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The root of the problem - A lack of limits

  • Speely
    Speely
    ✭✭✭✭
    @DeanTheCat this is a wonderful thread and you have very fairly and succinctly addressed some of the main issues preventing ESO from being a diverse AND competitive game.

  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
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    @DeanTheCat ,
    From your post at page 1:
    you say:
    Remember these?
    Perma-Dodge
    Perma-Block
    Shield-Spamming
    Instagib combos
    Perma-Bolt
    Perma-Cloak
    (To a lesser extent) Breath of Life spam
    None of these would have even been possible if the previous limits on character power were still in place.


    I fail to see how an increase of the max stats enabled Perma-Spamming of above abilities.
    Perma -Spamming needs unlimited Regeneration of resources.

    High stats only allow a longer burst and for HP/DPS features higher values per cast.
    The list from you above contains mainly Utilities, that are not influenced by a high stat.
    BOL was nerfed after removal of the stat caps, so delt with.
    Damage Shields are now critable to compensate for the "no cap" stat effect.
    So... the game balance has been immediately tweaked back by ZOS in a well understood fashion of the "no-cap" change!!!

    So what remains are the CP effects and stacking Vet 16 effects on Resource Regenaration & the CP effects on Resource Costs. Those are not THAT big. The Armor Set reduction of Resource costs are procentual anyway, for all Vet levels the same %. So that does not really contribute to the issue you put forward.


    I would add that decreasing stats by soft caps would even lead to more use of Utilities in general: more use of these abilities and CC abilities.
    Why?
    If the DPS/HPS gets soft capped and Utilities give the same effect, the Utility gets relatively stronger in terms of benefit per cost unit.
    For example with higher HPS from "no cap" eating the damage is a more viable option, with less HPS dodge rolling, avoiding the damage, becomes a more viable option.

    I think that if the soft caps were not removed, we would have seen similar game breaking issues that need some balance tweaking by ZOS.

    But NOT because of removal of the soft caps, but because of maturing of the game with players finding more optimal approaches to the game.

    The ony argument I can see where I do agree with your Post is that the more build & play diversity ZOS allows, the more suboptimal choices are possible for players.
    I am absolutely against taking away the free choice of players to do it sub optimal.
    Playing the way you want should give the full diversity possible!

    BTW: I play a build that is sub optimal, but perfectly fits to my lore choices and personal play style.

    edited BTW: My opinion is not biased as well: If soft caps would be re-introduced, my hybrid build will not likely be affected, and becomes relatively substantial stronger.


    Edited by hrothbern on November 17, 2015 10:19AM
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • DeanTheCat
    DeanTheCat
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    hrothbern wrote: »
    @DeanTheCat ,
    From your post at page 1:
    you say:
    Remember these?
    Perma-Dodge
    Perma-Block
    Shield-Spamming
    Instagib combos
    Perma-Bolt
    Perma-Cloak
    (To a lesser extent) Breath of Life spam
    None of these would have even been possible if the previous limits on character power were still in place.


    I fail to see how an increase of the max stats enabled Perma-Spamming of above abilities.
    Perma -Spamming needs unlimited Regeneration of resources.

    High stats only allow a longer burst and for HP/DPS features higher values per cast.
    The list from you above contains mainly Utilities, that are not influenced by a high stat.
    BOL was nerfed after removal of the stat caps, so delt with.
    Damage Shields are now critable to compensate for the "no cap" stat effect.
    So... the game balance has been immediately tweaked back by ZOS in a well understood fashion of the "no-cap" change!!!

    @hrothbern

    Thing is, with soft caps, there were also limits on resource regeneration as well as damage. Infinite resources only happens when the regeneration per second exceeds or equals the cost of the ability usage per second. In case you have forgotten how softcaps used to look like, let me post a screenshot of how softcaps used to be in 1.5

    u2fKk1i_zpsbd29aa78.png

    In 1.6, ZoS multiplied the value of all the values by 10, so if you wish to see how your current stats would have looked like in 1.5, simply remove the last digit at the end. In addition, drinks used to be not as potent, and this is a screenshot of a VR5 (At that time max ranked provisioning buffs) purple tristat drink. Compare it to a purple tristat drink of today.

    UUKbco4.png

    As you can see, it is much harder to sustain resources today then it was back in 1.5 when softcaps were present. 1.6k regeneration today is considered "Low regen" and "High Regen" builds have 2.5k+ Primary Stat regeneration, something that wasn't possible under the old system.

    In addition, damage shields are not critable, it has never been critable and it is still not critable.
    So what remains are the CP effects and stacking Vet 16 effects on Resource Regenaration & the CP effects on Resource Costs. Those are not THAT big. The Armor Set reduction of Resource costs are procentual anyway, for all Vet levels the same %. So that does not really contribute to the issue you put forward.

    Try resetting all your champion points, go fight in Cyrodiil for a few hours, and then reassign them.You'll notice a distinctive change in your performance that is noticeable at once. Champion Points matter. For an added challenge, put on your old vr14 gear when you reset your champion points to further see for yourself.
    I would add that decreasing stats by soft caps would even lead to more use of Utilities in general: more use of these abilities and CC abilities.
    Why?
    If the DPS/HPS gets soft capped and Utilities give the same effect, the Utility gets relatively stronger in terms of benefit per cost unit.
    For example with higher HPS from "no cap" eating the damage is a more viable option, with less HPS dodge rolling, avoiding the damage, becomes a more viable option.

    Which was exactly why 1.6 has killed build diversity. Back then, there were many ways of making a viable build, now it's just "Stack X and stack Y, then spam abilities to win". Like I have said before, ESO is a game balanced round resource management, and a lack of limits on resource regeneration will kill the balance.
    But NOT because of removal of the soft caps, but because of maturing of the game with players finding more optimal approaches to the game.

    I have no doubt in my mind that if players can exploit, they will exploit. It's kinda a given fact by this point. 1.6 forced us to relearn the game. If you apply your current 1.6+ strategies to 1.5, you would get wiped. Repeatedly.
    The ony argument I can see where I do agree with your Post is that the more build & play diversity ZOS allows, the more suboptimal choices are possible for players.
    I am absolutely against taking away the free choice of players to do it sub optimal.
    Playing the way you want should give the full diversity possible!

    What's suboptimal to you may not be suboptimal in another situation. A perfect example is Radiant Magelight vs Inner Light. Any PvE player would say RML is suboptimal, while a PvP player would value the added protection Radiant Magelight offers. You cannot use your own narrow definition on what's "Optimal" on everyone. One size does not fit all.
    BTW: I play a build that is sub optimal, but perfectly fits to my lore choices and personal play style.

    edited BTW: My opinion is not biased as well: If soft caps would be re-introduced, my hybrid build will not likely be affected, and becomes relatively substantial stronger.

    I never said your opinion was biased. No need to get so defensive. :)
    Dean the Cat
    Somewhat Insane Puddicat
    EU-PC Megaserver; Ebonheart Pact, Alliance Rank 34
    This one hails from far Singapore, excuse this one for his high pings. He also apologizes for any formatting/spelling errors, as he tends to answer using a mobile device.

    Insanity is the price of Knowledge. Herma-Mora and Sheogorath, this one bows before thee.

    This one does not advocate for any class to be nerfed. There are far deeper underlying issues then a simple "Class Imbalance". The Champion System is the problem. Not classes.

    Please read this before creating yet another nerf thread.

    My guides:
  • ragnarok6644b14_ESO
    I think softcaps are more lore friendly in some ways as well, if only because there has been a theme of mortal limitations in TES games, and the unique thing about the protagonist was they approached and sometimes exceeded these limits.

    I think softcaps are a perfect way to reflect this, giving a mortal cap while allowing certain powerful mortals (the players) to exceed it but not to the point of slapping the Divines in the face (leastwise without Divine aid from another source).

    I mean hell, some of the people I have seen do VMA with no softcaps could easily (in the lore) pop over to Coldharbour, slap Molag Bal around a bit, and be back in time to beat Sotha Sil at chess and have tea with Meridia.

    I mean really.
  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    hrothbern wrote: »
    @DeanTheCat ,
    From your post at page 1:
    you say:
    Remember these?
    Perma-Dodge
    Perma-Block
    Shield-Spamming
    Instagib combos
    Perma-Bolt
    Perma-Cloak
    (To a lesser extent) Breath of Life spam
    None of these would have even been possible if the previous limits on character power were still in place.


    I fail to see how an increase of the max stats enabled Perma-Spamming of above abilities.
    Perma -Spamming needs unlimited Regeneration of resources.

    High stats only allow a longer burst and for HP/DPS features higher values per cast.
    The list from you above contains mainly Utilities, that are not influenced by a high stat.
    BOL was nerfed after removal of the stat caps, so delt with.
    Damage Shields are now critable to compensate for the "no cap" stat effect.
    So... the game balance has been immediately tweaked back by ZOS in a well understood fashion of the "no-cap" change!!!

    @hrothbern

    Thing is, with soft caps, there were also limits on resource regeneration as well as damage. Infinite resources only happens when the regeneration per second exceeds or equals the cost of the ability usage per second. In case you have forgotten how softcaps used to look like, let me post a screenshot of how softcaps used to be in 1.5

    u2fKk1i_zpsbd29aa78.png

    In 1.6, ZoS multiplied the value of all the values by 10, so if you wish to see how your current stats would have looked like in 1.5, simply remove the last digit at the end. In addition, drinks used to be not as potent, and this is a screenshot of a VR5 (At that time max ranked provisioning buffs) purple tristat drink. Compare it to a purple tristat drink of today.

    UUKbco4.png

    As you can see, it is much harder to sustain resources today then it was back in 1.5 when softcaps were present. 1.6k regeneration today is considered "Low regen" and "High Regen" builds have 2.5k+ Primary Stat regeneration, something that wasn't possible under the old system.

    In addition, damage shields are not critable, it has never been critable and it is still not critable.
    So what remains are the CP effects and stacking Vet 16 effects on Resource Regenaration & the CP effects on Resource Costs. Those are not THAT big. The Armor Set reduction of Resource costs are procentual anyway, for all Vet levels the same %. So that does not really contribute to the issue you put forward.

    Try resetting all your champion points, go fight in Cyrodiil for a few hours, and then reassign them.You'll notice a distinctive change in your performance that is noticeable at once. Champion Points matter. For an added challenge, put on your old vr14 gear when you reset your champion points to further see for yourself.
    I would add that decreasing stats by soft caps would even lead to more use of Utilities in general: more use of these abilities and CC abilities.
    Why?
    If the DPS/HPS gets soft capped and Utilities give the same effect, the Utility gets relatively stronger in terms of benefit per cost unit.
    For example with higher HPS from "no cap" eating the damage is a more viable option, with less HPS dodge rolling, avoiding the damage, becomes a more viable option.

    Which was exactly why 1.6 has killed build diversity. Back then, there were many ways of making a viable build, now it's just "Stack X and stack Y, then spam abilities to win". Like I have said before, ESO is a game balanced round resource management, and a lack of limits on resource regeneration will kill the balance.
    But NOT because of removal of the soft caps, but because of maturing of the game with players finding more optimal approaches to the game.

    I have no doubt in my mind that if players can exploit, they will exploit. It's kinda a given fact by this point. 1.6 forced us to relearn the game. If you apply your current 1.6+ strategies to 1.5, you would get wiped. Repeatedly.
    The ony argument I can see where I do agree with your Post is that the more build & play diversity ZOS allows, the more suboptimal choices are possible for players.
    I am absolutely against taking away the free choice of players to do it sub optimal.
    Playing the way you want should give the full diversity possible!

    What's suboptimal to you may not be suboptimal in another situation. A perfect example is Radiant Magelight vs Inner Light. Any PvE player would say RML is suboptimal, while a PvP player would value the added protection Radiant Magelight offers. You cannot use your own narrow definition on what's "Optimal" on everyone. One size does not fit all.
    BTW: I play a build that is sub optimal, but perfectly fits to my lore choices and personal play style.

    edited BTW: My opinion is not biased as well: If soft caps would be re-introduced, my hybrid build will not likely be affected, and becomes relatively substantial stronger.

    I never said your opinion was biased. No need to get so defensive. :)

    @DeanTheCat ,

    Thanks for taking the time to give comprehensive comments to my comment.
    First the "biased" thing. I did add that only to emphasise that my contribution to the discussion was purely on the principles of what should be the best structural concept of our game. So perhaps a bit defensive, but only to people that express themselves in soundbytes to protect their own builds. Reading your nuanced OP I have absolutely not the impression that you belong to those people :)
    And I do welcome very much that we all try to discuss together in a decent style what is best !

    I think we do agree on the issue that we have too much resources!!! :)
    Taking that as the fundamental analysis of the current situation, the question arises "how should that be tackled?".
    You propose to re-introduce the soft cap again for that.
    I think that the increased costs of defensive actions like Blocking, Dodge rolling, Streak are addressing this. I think also that Cloack will get a similar treat as Dodge rol and perhaps some others to in course of time.
    The obvious disadvantage of this, the current ZOS approach, is that you have to make many changes, where as the soft cap would only be 1 change.
    However.... there are more ways to get Mag-Stam than just the straightforward Mag or Stam Regeneration. NB has Siphoning Attacks, DK has Coagulating Blood etc etc.
    IF getting resources would ONLY be possible from the stat Regeneration, I would agree with you.
    But fact is that there are many ways to get resources and THEREFORE the issue of too high resource availibilty must IMO be adressed by increasing costs.

    Increasing the benefits of Drinks feels rightly balanced to me atm.
    As simple thought approach.
    Say I take Food that increases my Mag stat with 4000, that increases my Damage with 400, which is for the sake of this example 10% increase of Damage.
    To have a Drink be a balanced alternative, that Drink should allow me to cast that ability 10% more often.
    That would make the choice between Food and Drink balanced.
    A player that is bursty and kiting would go for the Food.
    A player that needs sustained Damage or Heal with 100% uptime or a long burst will go for the Drink.
    This was not the case with the old ratio of Food and Drink.

    From the two thoughts above:
    It could be... it could implicate... that all DPS & HPS & Shields need an overhaul to increase the cost, to balance higher stat versus higher Regeneration achieved from sets, Food/Drinks, Mundus, etc.

    A totally other consideration for me to be wary to want to propose changes on this whole issue, is that we do not know HOW ZOS has intended to handle the removal of Veteran ranks....
    It could be that this removal will adress the current high Regeneration and stats....

    Edited by hrothbern on November 17, 2015 1:09PM
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • ragnarok6644b14_ESO
    The problem with high stats being balanced by high costs is that it is both simpler (as you mentioned) for the developers to implement AND it is easier for the players to understand.

    For example, I have no idea what goes into my stats now and what affects their theoretical maximum (I know that information is available somewhere but eh) which is more crippling when I know there is no theoretical maximum at all, and my 20k magicka VR13 Magplar healer must fight a VR16 Magsorc with 50k magicka and have no way of knowing how to compete with or even come close to such high levels of resources.
  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
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    The problem with high stats being balanced by high costs is that it is both simpler (as you mentioned) for the developers to implement AND it is easier for the players to understand.

    For example, I have no idea what goes into my stats now and what affects their theoretical maximum (I know that information is available somewhere but eh) which is more crippling when I know there is no theoretical maximum at all, and my 20k magicka VR13 Magplar healer must fight a VR16 Magsorc with 50k magicka and have no way of knowing how to compete with or even come close to such high levels of resources.



    You see what you get & and you get what you see

    For me that is a golden principle to avoid confusions and misunderstandings.

    soft caps and any non-linear proportional approach are in conflict with that principle.
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • ragnarok6644b14_ESO
    hrothbern wrote: »
    The problem with high stats being balanced by high costs is that it is both simpler (as you mentioned) for the developers to implement AND it is easier for the players to understand.

    For example, I have no idea what goes into my stats now and what affects their theoretical maximum (I know that information is available somewhere but eh) which is more crippling when I know there is no theoretical maximum at all, and my 20k magicka VR13 Magplar healer must fight a VR16 Magsorc with 50k magicka and have no way of knowing how to compete with or even come close to such high levels of resources.



    You see what you get & and you get what you see

    For me that is a golden principle to avoid confusions and misunderstandings.

    soft caps and any non-linear proportional approach are in conflict with that principle.

    How so? In the screenshot above, I see what I get before I finalize attribute assignment, I see what I have, and I see what my soft limits are.

    The way it is now there are so many behind-the-scenes nerfs and stealth updates that I have no fething clue why my character's stats are the way they are.
  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    hrothbern wrote: »
    The problem with high stats being balanced by high costs is that it is both simpler (as you mentioned) for the developers to implement AND it is easier for the players to understand.

    For example, I have no idea what goes into my stats now and what affects their theoretical maximum (I know that information is available somewhere but eh) which is more crippling when I know there is no theoretical maximum at all, and my 20k magicka VR13 Magplar healer must fight a VR16 Magsorc with 50k magicka and have no way of knowing how to compete with or even come close to such high levels of resources.



    You see what you get & and you get what you see

    For me that is a golden principle to avoid confusions and misunderstandings.

    soft caps and any non-linear proportional approach are in conflict with that principle.

    How so? In the screenshot above, I see what I get before I finalize attribute assignment, I see what I have, and I see what my soft limits are.

    The way it is now there are so many behind-the-scenes nerfs and stealth updates that I have no fething clue why my character's stats are the way they are.

    I you enchant a ring for 133 Spell Damage, you see 133 on the ring... right
    Now you put on the ring, and by soft cap magic, you suddenly only have 102 increased Spell Damage
    So you do not know beforehand in a straightforward measure what you get... you do NOT see what get.

    The issue with "how on earth does somebody gets 50k Mag" is another issue. To get it, you must sacrifice Health, Damage Mitigation, Regenerations, etc. You need Racials, Class line abilities that do % increases.
    But at least the person that has 50k Magicka knows exactly how he got it and if he tweaks his build, and exchanges 1280 Magicka with 11% Crit chance, he gets exactly 1280 Magicka less in his stat and exactly 11% more Crit chance.

    And if such 50k Magicka must be decreased in the game mechanics...
    A simple way to do it is to increase your base Magicka stat (before Attributes, Armor sets etc) and decrease the additional stat benefits from Food, Attributes and sets.
    Magicka will be lower for the extreme builds, the same for "normal" builds, higher for Hybrid builds.... but you still see exactly what you get.


    Edited by hrothbern on November 17, 2015 1:42PM
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • ragnarok6644b14_ESO
    hrothbern wrote: »
    hrothbern wrote: »
    The problem with high stats being balanced by high costs is that it is both simpler (as you mentioned) for the developers to implement AND it is easier for the players to understand.

    For example, I have no idea what goes into my stats now and what affects their theoretical maximum (I know that information is available somewhere but eh) which is more crippling when I know there is no theoretical maximum at all, and my 20k magicka VR13 Magplar healer must fight a VR16 Magsorc with 50k magicka and have no way of knowing how to compete with or even come close to such high levels of resources.



    You see what you get & and you get what you see

    For me that is a golden principle to avoid confusions and misunderstandings.

    soft caps and any non-linear proportional approach are in conflict with that principle.

    How so? In the screenshot above, I see what I get before I finalize attribute assignment, I see what I have, and I see what my soft limits are.

    The way it is now there are so many behind-the-scenes nerfs and stealth updates that I have no fething clue why my character's stats are the way they are.

    I you enchant a ring for 133 Spell Damage, you see 133 on the ring... right
    Now you put on the ring, and by soft cap magic, you suddenly only have 102 increased Spell Damage
    So you do not know beforehand in a straightforward measure what you get... you do NOT see what get.

    The issue with "how on earth does somebody gets 50k Mag" is another issue. To get it, you must sacrifice Health, Damage Mitigation, Regenerations, etc. You need Racials, Class line abilities that do % increases.
    But at least the person that has 50k Magicka knows exactly how he got it and if he weaks his build, and exchanges 1280 Magicka with 11 Crit chance, he gets exactly 1280 Magicka less in his stat and exactly 11% more Crit chance.

    Ah I see. So gear is the trouble. One could simply implement a warning when one tries to equip gear that goes over the soft cap. It could even have a "don't show this again" checkbox.

    And your example precisely illustrates my problem with no limits, especially your mention of "racial". I am an Imperial Templar. My max magicka is objectively lower than an Altmer templar, and so my utility to a group is objectively worse. Or so I have been told.

    "Just reroll" isn't the answer.
  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    hrothbern wrote: »
    hrothbern wrote: »
    The problem with high stats being balanced by high costs is that it is both simpler (as you mentioned) for the developers to implement AND it is easier for the players to understand.

    For example, I have no idea what goes into my stats now and what affects their theoretical maximum (I know that information is available somewhere but eh) which is more crippling when I know there is no theoretical maximum at all, and my 20k magicka VR13 Magplar healer must fight a VR16 Magsorc with 50k magicka and have no way of knowing how to compete with or even come close to such high levels of resources.



    You see what you get & and you get what you see

    For me that is a golden principle to avoid confusions and misunderstandings.

    soft caps and any non-linear proportional approach are in conflict with that principle.

    How so? In the screenshot above, I see what I get before I finalize attribute assignment, I see what I have, and I see what my soft limits are.

    The way it is now there are so many behind-the-scenes nerfs and stealth updates that I have no fething clue why my character's stats are the way they are.

    I you enchant a ring for 133 Spell Damage, you see 133 on the ring... right
    Now you put on the ring, and by soft cap magic, you suddenly only have 102 increased Spell Damage
    So you do not know beforehand in a straightforward measure what you get... you do NOT see what get.

    The issue with "how on earth does somebody gets 50k Mag" is another issue. To get it, you must sacrifice Health, Damage Mitigation, Regenerations, etc. You need Racials, Class line abilities that do % increases.
    But at least the person that has 50k Magicka knows exactly how he got it and if he weaks his build, and exchanges 1280 Magicka with 11 Crit chance, he gets exactly 1280 Magicka less in his stat and exactly 11% more Crit chance.

    Ah I see. So gear is the trouble. One could simply implement a warning when one tries to equip gear that goes over the soft cap. It could even have a "don't show this again" checkbox.

    And your example precisely illustrates my problem with no limits, especially your mention of "racial". I am an Imperial Templar. My max magicka is objectively lower than an Altmer templar, and so my utility to a group is objectively worse. Or so I have been told.

    "Just reroll" isn't the answer.

    For a max optimal build, you need synergy between Racial, Class, chosen sets and abilities.
    An Altmer Templar has more Magicka stat, but not the 10% Stamina stat, so Stamina abilities will synergise more with your Racial.

    "Just reroll" isn't the answer"
    I very much agree on that !!!


    ZOS has changed fundamentally the game mechanics... quite often and drastic in the past years.
    It is about time that they give us the possibility to change the Racial !!!

    I hope ZOS will allow us to do that... and perhaps the big change coming with removal of the Veteran ranks is the right moment. And they should have ready the already announced changes to Racials as well
    IMHO In my humble opinion.
    Edited by hrothbern on November 17, 2015 1:57PM
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • ragnarok6644b14_ESO
    But I am primarily an RPer, and I don't want Katerina Malinenko to suddenly become an Altmer randomly in the storyline because it is what is required to for her to participate in endgame group content. And she is a healer, so until healing abilities scale off of stamina, her Racials don't help her there either.

    There should just be a way for each character to reach the magicka cap (even if some put more effort into it than others).
    Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on November 17, 2015 1:58PM
  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    But I am primarily an RPer, and I don't want Katerina Malinenko to suddenly become an Altmer randomly in the storyline because it is what is required to for her to participate in endgame group content. And she is a healer, so until healing abilities scale off of stamina, her Racials don't help her there either.

    There should just be a way for each character to reach the magicka cap (even if some put more effort into it than others).

    Yeah...You have a point there...

    I am by lore a hardy rugged Nord wearing Heavy Armor
    Always have been in all TES games.....
    and always will be...

    And yes, I do (also) suffer from a sub optimal build....
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • Merlight
    Merlight
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    hrothbern wrote: »
    However.... there are more ways to get Mag-Stam than just the straightforward Mag or Stam Regeneration. NB has Siphoning Attacks, DK has Coagulating Blood etc etc.

    Coagulating Blood/Green Dragon Blood increases regeneration, which was subject to soft-caps. Otherwise good point. Those other ways of getting resources (NB Siphoning Strikes, DK Helping Hands, ..., heavy attacks!) were relatively stronger/more important when regen was capped.
    EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
    The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
    Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
    When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future.Richard A. Bartle
    Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal.lordrichter
    ... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it.Santie Claws
  • ragnarok6644b14_ESO
    hrothbern wrote: »
    But I am primarily an RPer, and I don't want Katerina Malinenko to suddenly become an Altmer randomly in the storyline because it is what is required to for her to participate in endgame group content. And she is a healer, so until healing abilities scale off of stamina, her Racials don't help her there either.

    There should just be a way for each character to reach the magicka cap (even if some put more effort into it than others).

    Yeah...You have a point there...

    I am by lore a hardy rugged Nord wearing Heavy Armor
    Always have been in all TES games.....
    and always will be...

    And yes, I do (also) suffer from a sub optimal build....

    Then why would softcaps be a bad idea?
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    One of the worst wall of words I've ever seen. Poorly thought out. Waste of time to try to read it
  • Jammer480
    Jammer480
    ✭✭✭
    Brilliant thread and discussion...now just need ZOS to listen.
    Livin' the dream...
  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    hrothbern wrote: »
    But I am primarily an RPer, and I don't want Katerina Malinenko to suddenly become an Altmer randomly in the storyline because it is what is required to for her to participate in endgame group content. And she is a healer, so until healing abilities scale off of stamina, her Racials don't help her there either.

    There should just be a way for each character to reach the magicka cap (even if some put more effort into it than others).

    Yeah...You have a point there...

    I am by lore a hardy rugged Nord wearing Heavy Armor
    Always have been in all TES games.....
    and always will be...

    And yes, I do (also) suffer from a sub optimal build....

    Then why would softcaps be a bad idea?

    Because I believe in diversity. A diversity that includes a bandwith of viable but not "totally optimal builds". A diversity that allows for variety of technical choices and play styles (including lore :) )

    Perhaps as example

    Before the energy reduction thing, different car manufacturers had clearly distinguished styles. Your car was your personal choice to your liking.

    Nowadays, after the wind tunnel tests to consume less energy, to get "totally optimal builds", "all cars" look more and more the same, only the name differs.

    Understandable for real life environmental reasons, but the magic of a car model, that made you fall in love with it, is not the same anymore.


    If this game is soft capped, it becomes for me too much a kind of one-make car race.
    Edited by hrothbern on November 17, 2015 2:21PM
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • ragnarok6644b14_ESO
    The problem is that people naturally seek to maximize efficiency, so a world with a variety of builds but only a few clearly optimized ones will naturally tend asymptotically towards the fewest number of highly optimized min-maxed builds, so it isn't really variety at all.

    And I would be driven away from such an environment because I refuse to cookie-cutter.
  • Sharkano
    Sharkano
    ✭✭✭✭
    If playing for 4 billion hours does not give you a huge advantage over the guy who started yesterday, that is the epitome of unfairness.

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Alex on November 17, 2015 3:17PM
  • Merlight
    Merlight
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    hrothbern wrote: »
    Because I believe in diversity. A diversity that includes a bandwith of viable but not "totally optimal builds". A diversity that allows for variety of technical choices and play styles (including lore :) )

    With soft-caps, there were multiple ways to reach them -- attributes, enchants, set bonuses, mundus/food buffs. After choosing your way to the cap in your primary stat, you then chose where to put the remaining points. Now without caps a lot of people go all in on the primary stat; and there aren't many ways to get to the max. You may view the soft-cap as limiting diversity (effectively denying the "all in" route), I see it as an opportunity to diversify in secondary stats.
    EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
    The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
    Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
    When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future.Richard A. Bartle
    Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal.lordrichter
    ... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it.Santie Claws
  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Merlight wrote: »
    hrothbern wrote: »
    Because I believe in diversity. A diversity that includes a bandwith of viable but not "totally optimal builds". A diversity that allows for variety of technical choices and play styles (including lore :) )

    With soft-caps, there were multiple ways to reach them -- attributes, enchants, set bonuses, mundus/food buffs. After choosing your way to the cap in your primary stat, you then chose where to put the remaining points. Now without caps a lot of people go all in on the primary stat; and there aren't many ways to get to the max. You may view the soft-cap as limiting diversity (effectively denying the "all in" route), I see it as an opportunity to diversify in secondary stats.

    The root of the problem, as I mentioned already in comments above, is that DPS/HPS abilities are to cheap.
    So a build fully focused on max stat has still the ammo to shoot with high damage scaled from the max stat.
    • If resources become more difficult to get, you have to lower your max stats to keep your sustained HPS/DPS high.
    • If Stamina resources become more difficult to get, you become more vulnerable for CC attacks, and high stat./damage comes at the risk of a fast CC-ed death. Perhaps CC abilities need even reduced costs...
    • If your Health pool becomes to small, or your effective Health pool (low mitigation) you must either have a terrific good play level skill or die when you make a small mistake and the incoming spike burst is too high.


    THERE is the balance that should prevent that the "all in"" route, going only for 1 max stat, delivers the best build possible.
    But this natural balance only comes into being if resources become a bottleneck !!!

    and because there are several ways to get resources, Regeneration only being 1 of them, cost increase cannot be arranged with Regeneration, but only from cost increase. And this cost increase will trigger this balancing of the game towards less extreme max stat builds.

    BTW: that very well skilled players need less Health pool and less mitigation is for me a great thing.
    Because that means that very well skilled players can convert that performance into high Mag/Sta stats and get the benefit or their play skills converted in higher damage !!! without a regulated soft cap gnawing at the max stat they earned.

    Edited by hrothbern on November 17, 2015 5:08PM
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • Artheiron
    Artheiron
    ✭✭✭
    TL but I read and I'd like the say I agree almost all of them. After I get some vr16 gears, I understood that the power difference between the 12-14 < 14-16 could be a sign of the VR rank removals. vr 16 gears require a lot of materials to craft too compared to previous rank. I'm confident to say these are a preparations for the vr rank removal.
  • Vatter
    Vatter
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @DeanTheCat

    Seriously fantastic post. I fear its too late though.
  • Emma_Overload
    Emma_Overload
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Removal of soft caps is completely destroying hybrid builds which was what was AWESOME about this game.

    Hybrid builds have ALWAYS been disadvantaged and sub-optimal, and that has nothing to do with soft caps. If you want hybrid builds to work, quit asking for soft caps and start asking for weapon and spell damage to be divorced completely from attribute stats like magicka and stamina.
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Removal of soft caps is completely destroying hybrid builds which was what was AWESOME about this game.

    Hybrid builds have ALWAYS been disadvantaged and sub-optimal, and that has nothing to do with soft caps. If you want hybrid builds to work, quit asking for soft caps and start asking for weapon and spell damage to be divorced completely from attribute stats like magicka and stamina.

    If there are really usefull Stamina utilities that are never Magicka based
    and
    if there also really usefull Magicka utilities that are never Stamina based
    and these utilities are mutual excluding eachother

    then:
    optimal builds must have enough of both pools and regenerations
    or suffer the lack of some of these utilities for a dedicated one-stat build

    So you can even have meaningfull hybrid builds without a soft cap
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • DeanTheCat
    DeanTheCat
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @hrothbern:

    Sorry for this rather late reply, can't really type long replies on a mobile phone, need a PC to do that :/
    hrothbern wrote: »
    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    hrothbern wrote: »
    @DeanTheCat ,
    From your post at page 1:
    you say:
    Remember these?
    Perma-Dodge
    Perma-Block
    Shield-Spamming
    Instagib combos
    Perma-Bolt
    Perma-Cloak
    (To a lesser extent) Breath of Life spam
    None of these would have even been possible if the previous limits on character power were still in place.


    I fail to see how an increase of the max stats enabled Perma-Spamming of above abilities.
    Perma -Spamming needs unlimited Regeneration of resources.

    High stats only allow a longer burst and for HP/DPS features higher values per cast.
    The list from you above contains mainly Utilities, that are not influenced by a high stat.
    BOL was nerfed after removal of the stat caps, so delt with.
    Damage Shields are now critable to compensate for the "no cap" stat effect.
    So... the game balance has been immediately tweaked back by ZOS in a well understood fashion of the "no-cap" change!!!

    @hrothbern

    Thing is, with soft caps, there were also limits on resource regeneration as well as damage. Infinite resources only happens when the regeneration per second exceeds or equals the cost of the ability usage per second. In case you have forgotten how softcaps used to look like, let me post a screenshot of how softcaps used to be in 1.5

    u2fKk1i_zpsbd29aa78.png

    In 1.6, ZoS multiplied the value of all the values by 10, so if you wish to see how your current stats would have looked like in 1.5, simply remove the last digit at the end. In addition, drinks used to be not as potent, and this is a screenshot of a VR5 (At that time max ranked provisioning buffs) purple tristat drink. Compare it to a purple tristat drink of today.

    UUKbco4.png

    As you can see, it is much harder to sustain resources today then it was back in 1.5 when softcaps were present. 1.6k regeneration today is considered "Low regen" and "High Regen" builds have 2.5k+ Primary Stat regeneration, something that wasn't possible under the old system.

    In addition, damage shields are not critable, it has never been critable and it is still not critable.
    So what remains are the CP effects and stacking Vet 16 effects on Resource Regenaration & the CP effects on Resource Costs. Those are not THAT big. The Armor Set reduction of Resource costs are procentual anyway, for all Vet levels the same %. So that does not really contribute to the issue you put forward.

    Try resetting all your champion points, go fight in Cyrodiil for a few hours, and then reassign them.You'll notice a distinctive change in your performance that is noticeable at once. Champion Points matter. For an added challenge, put on your old vr14 gear when you reset your champion points to further see for yourself.
    I would add that decreasing stats by soft caps would even lead to more use of Utilities in general: more use of these abilities and CC abilities.
    Why?
    If the DPS/HPS gets soft capped and Utilities give the same effect, the Utility gets relatively stronger in terms of benefit per cost unit.
    For example with higher HPS from "no cap" eating the damage is a more viable option, with less HPS dodge rolling, avoiding the damage, becomes a more viable option.

    Which was exactly why 1.6 has killed build diversity. Back then, there were many ways of making a viable build, now it's just "Stack X and stack Y, then spam abilities to win". Like I have said before, ESO is a game balanced round resource management, and a lack of limits on resource regeneration will kill the balance.
    But NOT because of removal of the soft caps, but because of maturing of the game with players finding more optimal approaches to the game.

    I have no doubt in my mind that if players can exploit, they will exploit. It's kinda a given fact by this point. 1.6 forced us to relearn the game. If you apply your current 1.6+ strategies to 1.5, you would get wiped. Repeatedly.
    The ony argument I can see where I do agree with your Post is that the more build & play diversity ZOS allows, the more suboptimal choices are possible for players.
    I am absolutely against taking away the free choice of players to do it sub optimal.
    Playing the way you want should give the full diversity possible!

    What's suboptimal to you may not be suboptimal in another situation. A perfect example is Radiant Magelight vs Inner Light. Any PvE player would say RML is suboptimal, while a PvP player would value the added protection Radiant Magelight offers. You cannot use your own narrow definition on what's "Optimal" on everyone. One size does not fit all.
    BTW: I play a build that is sub optimal, but perfectly fits to my lore choices and personal play style.

    edited BTW: My opinion is not biased as well: If soft caps would be re-introduced, my hybrid build will not likely be affected, and becomes relatively substantial stronger.

    I never said your opinion was biased. No need to get so defensive. :)

    @DeanTheCat ,

    Thanks for taking the time to give comprehensive comments to my comment.
    First the "biased" thing. I did add that only to emphasise that my contribution to the discussion was purely on the principles of what should be the best structural concept of our game. So perhaps a bit defensive, but only to people that express themselves in soundbytes to protect their own builds. Reading your nuanced OP I have absolutely not the impression that you belong to those people :)
    And I do welcome very much that we all try to discuss together in a decent style what is best !

    I think we do agree on the issue that we have too much resources!!! :)
    Taking that as the fundamental analysis of the current situation, the question arises "how should that be tackled?".
    You propose to re-introduce the soft cap again for that.
    I think that the increased costs of defensive actions like Blocking, Dodge rolling, Streak are addressing this. I think also that Cloack will get a similar treat as Dodge rol and perhaps some others to in course of time.
    The obvious disadvantage of this, the current ZOS approach, is that you have to make many changes, where as the soft cap would only be 1 change.
    However.... there are more ways to get Mag-Stam than just the straightforward Mag or Stam Regeneration. NB has Siphoning Attacks, DK has Coagulating Blood etc etc.
    IF getting resources would ONLY be possible from the stat Regeneration, I would agree with you.
    But fact is that there are many ways to get resources and THEREFORE the issue of too high resource availibilty must IMO be adressed by increasing costs.

    Increasing the benefits of Drinks feels rightly balanced to me atm.
    As simple thought approach.
    Say I take Food that increases my Mag stat with 4000, that increases my Damage with 400, which is for the sake of this example 10% increase of Damage.
    To have a Drink be a balanced alternative, that Drink should allow me to cast that ability 10% more often.
    That would make the choice between Food and Drink balanced.
    A player that is bursty and kiting would go for the Food.
    A player that needs sustained Damage or Heal with 100% uptime or a long burst will go for the Drink.
    This was not the case with the old ratio of Food and Drink.

    From the two thoughts above:
    It could be... it could implicate... that all DPS & HPS & Shields need an overhaul to increase the cost, to balance higher stat versus higher Regeneration achieved from sets, Food/Drinks, Mundus, etc.

    A totally other consideration for me to be wary to want to propose changes on this whole issue, is that we do not know HOW ZOS has intended to handle the removal of Veteran ranks....
    It could be that this removal will adress the current high Regeneration and stats....

    The problem with your suggested solution of increasing the costs of each skill individually is that it punishes players who didn't game and min-max the system to it's fullest, as these are the people who would be hit the hardest by such changes. The top players who the changes are aimed at would barely feel it, and can easily shrug the nerfs off, while your average joe would be utterly gutted by the changes. The top players also have the funds and resources to shuffle around gear (Though grudgingly) while your average joe barely has enough funds to cobble together one set of armor, let alone multiple sets.

    An example of this would be the recent change to blocking. The no stam regen when blocking was due to certain medium armor perma-block builds who regened round 3k+ stam regen a tick while maintaining sufficient damage and sustainability to have above average damage. ZoS didn't like this, and they applied the no stam regen nerf. This change effectively stopped those builds, but in the process, it gutted the tank playstyle for everyone, from the uber elite to the tanks who could barely tank a vet pledge with severe help from a Templar healer. This resulted in a ton of resentment from the players, as evidenced by thread after thread on the subject. This nerf would never needed to be put in place if softcaps were still present, as the regen levels needed to sustain that sort of build would never have been achieved.

    We cannot balance for the top 5%. We must balance for the average joe, or players will leave. When players leave, we won't have a game left to play. Nerfs always leave a foul taste in the mouth, and the lesser players who have to feel it, the better.

    On the subject of alternative means of restoring resources, these other means of restoring resources often come at a cost that isn't always apparent. For example, a DK spamming Obsidian Shield to recover stamina via Helping Hands is burning Magicka to do so, as well as being forced on the defensive. The Shards synergy from a Templar's Spear requires an allied Templar to throw a spear near you, and you to move over and activate the synergy. A heavy attack to restore resources means that you are not blocking, and you aren't really doing any significant damage (Unless built for it) while recovering with Heavy Attacks. Each one of these means has an opportunity cost, and rewards players who can find openings or work together to achieve said results, while punishing players who lack teamwork and coordination, or make mistakes in their play opening themselves to a riposte. Softcaps helps ensure that these players who cannot avail themselves of such opportunities do not fall too far behind the players who can, as the players who can most likely have the resources available to go for gold.

    EDIT: Spelling
    Edited by DeanTheCat on November 18, 2015 7:53AM
    Dean the Cat
    Somewhat Insane Puddicat
    EU-PC Megaserver; Ebonheart Pact, Alliance Rank 34
    This one hails from far Singapore, excuse this one for his high pings. He also apologizes for any formatting/spelling errors, as he tends to answer using a mobile device.

    Insanity is the price of Knowledge. Herma-Mora and Sheogorath, this one bows before thee.

    This one does not advocate for any class to be nerfed. There are far deeper underlying issues then a simple "Class Imbalance". The Champion System is the problem. Not classes.

    Please read this before creating yet another nerf thread.

    My guides:
  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    @hrothbern:

    Sorry for this rather late reply, can't really type long replies on a mobile phone, need a PC to do that :/
    hrothbern wrote: »
    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    hrothbern wrote: »
    @DeanTheCat ,
    From your post at page 1:
    you say:
    Remember these?
    Perma-Dodge
    Perma-Block
    Shield-Spamming
    Instagib combos
    Perma-Bolt
    Perma-Cloak
    (To a lesser extent) Breath of Life spam
    None of these would have even been possible if the previous limits on character power were still in place.


    I fail to see how an increase of the max stats enabled Perma-Spamming of above abilities.
    Perma -Spamming needs unlimited Regeneration of resources.

    High stats only allow a longer burst and for HP/DPS features higher values per cast.
    The list from you above contains mainly Utilities, that are not influenced by a high stat.
    BOL was nerfed after removal of the stat caps, so delt with.
    Damage Shields are now critable to compensate for the "no cap" stat effect.
    So... the game balance has been immediately tweaked back by ZOS in a well understood fashion of the "no-cap" change!!!

    @hrothbern

    Thing is, with soft caps, there were also limits on resource regeneration as well as damage. Infinite resources only happens when the regeneration per second exceeds or equals the cost of the ability usage per second. In case you have forgotten how softcaps used to look like, let me post a screenshot of how softcaps used to be in 1.5

    u2fKk1i_zpsbd29aa78.png

    In 1.6, ZoS multiplied the value of all the values by 10, so if you wish to see how your current stats would have looked like in 1.5, simply remove the last digit at the end. In addition, drinks used to be not as potent, and this is a screenshot of a VR5 (At that time max ranked provisioning buffs) purple tristat drink. Compare it to a purple tristat drink of today.

    UUKbco4.png

    As you can see, it is much harder to sustain resources today then it was back in 1.5 when softcaps were present. 1.6k regeneration today is considered "Low regen" and "High Regen" builds have 2.5k+ Primary Stat regeneration, something that wasn't possible under the old system.

    In addition, damage shields are not critable, it has never been critable and it is still not critable.
    So what remains are the CP effects and stacking Vet 16 effects on Resource Regenaration & the CP effects on Resource Costs. Those are not THAT big. The Armor Set reduction of Resource costs are procentual anyway, for all Vet levels the same %. So that does not really contribute to the issue you put forward.

    Try resetting all your champion points, go fight in Cyrodiil for a few hours, and then reassign them.You'll notice a distinctive change in your performance that is noticeable at once. Champion Points matter. For an added challenge, put on your old vr14 gear when you reset your champion points to further see for yourself.
    I would add that decreasing stats by soft caps would even lead to more use of Utilities in general: more use of these abilities and CC abilities.
    Why?
    If the DPS/HPS gets soft capped and Utilities give the same effect, the Utility gets relatively stronger in terms of benefit per cost unit.
    For example with higher HPS from "no cap" eating the damage is a more viable option, with less HPS dodge rolling, avoiding the damage, becomes a more viable option.

    Which was exactly why 1.6 has killed build diversity. Back then, there were many ways of making a viable build, now it's just "Stack X and stack Y, then spam abilities to win". Like I have said before, ESO is a game balanced round resource management, and a lack of limits on resource regeneration will kill the balance.
    But NOT because of removal of the soft caps, but because of maturing of the game with players finding more optimal approaches to the game.

    I have no doubt in my mind that if players can exploit, they will exploit. It's kinda a given fact by this point. 1.6 forced us to relearn the game. If you apply your current 1.6+ strategies to 1.5, you would get wiped. Repeatedly.
    The ony argument I can see where I do agree with your Post is that the more build & play diversity ZOS allows, the more suboptimal choices are possible for players.
    I am absolutely against taking away the free choice of players to do it sub optimal.
    Playing the way you want should give the full diversity possible!

    What's suboptimal to you may not be suboptimal in another situation. A perfect example is Radiant Magelight vs Inner Light. Any PvE player would say RML is suboptimal, while a PvP player would value the added protection Radiant Magelight offers. You cannot use your own narrow definition on what's "Optimal" on everyone. One size does not fit all.
    BTW: I play a build that is sub optimal, but perfectly fits to my lore choices and personal play style.

    edited BTW: My opinion is not biased as well: If soft caps would be re-introduced, my hybrid build will not likely be affected, and becomes relatively substantial stronger.

    I never said your opinion was biased. No need to get so defensive. :)

    @DeanTheCat ,

    Thanks for taking the time to give comprehensive comments to my comment.
    First the "biased" thing. I did add that only to emphasise that my contribution to the discussion was purely on the principles of what should be the best structural concept of our game. So perhaps a bit defensive, but only to people that express themselves in soundbytes to protect their own builds. Reading your nuanced OP I have absolutely not the impression that you belong to those people :)
    And I do welcome very much that we all try to discuss together in a decent style what is best !

    I think we do agree on the issue that we have too much resources!!! :)
    Taking that as the fundamental analysis of the current situation, the question arises "how should that be tackled?".
    You propose to re-introduce the soft cap again for that.
    I think that the increased costs of defensive actions like Blocking, Dodge rolling, Streak are addressing this. I think also that Cloack will get a similar treat as Dodge rol and perhaps some others to in course of time.
    The obvious disadvantage of this, the current ZOS approach, is that you have to make many changes, where as the soft cap would only be 1 change.
    However.... there are more ways to get Mag-Stam than just the straightforward Mag or Stam Regeneration. NB has Siphoning Attacks, DK has Coagulating Blood etc etc.
    IF getting resources would ONLY be possible from the stat Regeneration, I would agree with you.
    But fact is that there are many ways to get resources and THEREFORE the issue of too high resource availibilty must IMO be adressed by increasing costs.

    Increasing the benefits of Drinks feels rightly balanced to me atm.
    As simple thought approach.
    Say I take Food that increases my Mag stat with 4000, that increases my Damage with 400, which is for the sake of this example 10% increase of Damage.
    To have a Drink be a balanced alternative, that Drink should allow me to cast that ability 10% more often.
    That would make the choice between Food and Drink balanced.
    A player that is bursty and kiting would go for the Food.
    A player that needs sustained Damage or Heal with 100% uptime or a long burst will go for the Drink.
    This was not the case with the old ratio of Food and Drink.

    From the two thoughts above:
    It could be... it could implicate... that all DPS & HPS & Shields need an overhaul to increase the cost, to balance higher stat versus higher Regeneration achieved from sets, Food/Drinks, Mundus, etc.

    A totally other consideration for me to be wary to want to propose changes on this whole issue, is that we do not know HOW ZOS has intended to handle the removal of Veteran ranks....
    It could be that this removal will adress the current high Regeneration and stats....

    The problem with your suggested solution of increasing the costs of each skill individually is that it punishes players who didn't game and min-max the system to it's fullest, as these are the people who would be hit the hardest by such changes. The top players who the changes are aimed at would barely feel it, and can easily shrug the nerfs off, while your average joe would be utterly gutted by the changes. The top players also have the funds and resources to shuffle around gear (Though grudgingly) while your average joe barely has enough funds to cobble together one set of armor, let alone multiple sets.

    An example of this would be the recent change to blocking. The no stam regen when blocking was due to certain medium armor perma-block builds who regened round 3k+ stam regen a tick while maintaining sufficient damage and sustainability to have above average damage. ZoS didn't like this, and they applied the no stam regen nerf. This change effectively stopped those builds, but in the process, it gutted the tank playstyle for everyone, from the uber elite to the tanks who could barely tank a vet pledge with severe help from a Templar healer. This resulted in a ton of resentment from the players, as evidenced by thread after thread on the subject. This nerf would never needed to be put in place if softcaps were still present, as the regen levels needed to sustain that sort of build would never have been achieved.

    We cannot balance for the top 5%. We must balance for the average joe, or players will leave. When players leave, we won't have a game left to play. Nerfs always leave a foul taste in the mouth, and the lesser players who have to feel it, the better.

    On the subject of alternative means of restoring resources, these other means of restoring resources often come at a cost that isn't always apparent. For example, a DK spamming Obsidian Shield to recover stamina via Helping Hands is burning Magicka to do so, as well as being forced on the defensive. The Shards synergy from a Templar's Spear requires an allied Templar to throw a spear near you, and you to move over and activate the synergy. A heavy attack to restore resources means that you are not blocking, and you aren't really doing any significant damage (Unless built for it) while recovering with Heavy Attacks. Each one of these means has an opportunity cost, and rewards players who can find openings or work together to achieve said results, while punishing players who lack teamwork and coordination, or make mistakes in their play opening themselves to a riposte. Softcaps helps ensure that these players who cannot avail themselves of such opportunities do not fall too far behind the players who can, as the players who can most likely have the resources available to go for gold.
    EDIT: Spelling


    you say:
    The problem with your suggested solution of increasing the costs of each skill individually is that it punishes players who didn't game and min-max the system to it's fullest, as these are the people who would be hit the hardest by such changes. The top players who the changes are aimed at would barely feel it, and can easily shrug the nerfs off, while your average joe would be utterly gutted by the changes. The top players also have the funds and resources to shuffle around gear (Though grudgingly) while your average joe barely has enough funds to cobble together one set of armor, let alone multiple sets.

    On this topic I did not think through the consequences for the more casual player... to my shame.

    And I agree wholeheartedly with you that in general the game must fit primarily to the normal player base.

    The profi's can take a hike on that platform for extraordinary feats and performance.... the heroic deeds of Profi's may be the inspiration and something to desire for.... but that should not affect the basic game structure, should not affect the pleasure to play for average players.
    And I agree as well on the examples you give for tanks.
    The 100% nerf on Stamina Recovery during blocking could also have been a 50% reduction on Stamina Recovery.(that would als have adressed the issue that ZOS had with this one character with 3k+ Stamina Recovery). Now it slashes the pleasure to play of normal tanks. The work arounds to still get Stamina are complicated. It also complicates cooperation in groups between Tank, Healer and DD's. All true.

    Soft caps will limit the bandwidth of the builds strenght possible, just like the recent cap on CP that can be deployed.
    That keeps the player base more together, which is great.

    Soft caps are no doubt a simple AND robust way to prevent extreme builds and freak performances.
    But that does not take away that it feels unnatural to me.

    In real life, whether the biggest playground ever, the evolution of animals, or the second biggest playground ever, warfare, extreme monstrosities never experienced a long lifetime and big numbers.
    In nature the counter is normally food (an elephant) or to vulnerable (a lion dies of hunger if slightly crippled). In warfare the counter is normally a too heavy logistics system to support (no fuel/ammo) or too slow if too robust or too fragile if too high mobility.
    In both cases the counters are too high costs and too low damage mitigation/avoidance, causing a natural balance, preventing success of the too "strong" or too extreme.

    The fact that extreme builds are succesfull in current ESO means for me that ZOS did not figure out the root balancing... yet!
    A 100% nerf on Stamina Recovery is a nice example of sympton treatment.


    gosh... again a wall of paper....

    To the point:
    My thoughts now are:
    1. Introduce hard caps that prevent too extreme builds for stats, regeneration Spell/Weapon Power. Armor Resistance is already hard capped !
    2. Start root balancing the game, whereby too high stats, regeneration, power and mitigation are relatively expensive, and do not deliver the most optimal builds. Tweak so that optimal builds are not higher than 80% of the hard caps.
    3. Once the root balancing is robust in a couple of years: Remove the hard caps. This allows players to make also extreme builds that fit to their personal play style, at the expense of being a non-optimal build

    Why a hard cap and not a soft cap? Because the development of root balancing needs an analysis without being affected by the side effects of soft caps.

    EDIT added:
    I can also imagine to start the hard cap a bit lower and increase it step by step up over time paralel to introduction of root balancing changes. Allows also for handling stats, regenerations, power at different pace.

    How to root-balance?
    That should be another thread. But just an exemplary thought. Scale the costs of an ability to the scaled damage. Not linear proportional, but enough to hurt. This means that an extreme build with very high stats and power, causing extreme damage, also pays a higher cost. The consequence: you cannot perma-spam anymore the extreme damages.. too expensive. But you can still ambush and burst with extreme damage, if that is your playstyle.


    Edited by hrothbern on November 18, 2015 10:52AM
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • Snowgoons
    Snowgoons
    ✭✭✭✭
    Seriously people, do you guys have nothing better to do then to call nerfs on everything?)

    People talking about very thoughtful post, I stopped reading there.
    Rollin' round Tamriel on that skooma wasted like a failed Grand Theft Auto mission.
  • ragnarok6644b14_ESO
    hrothbern wrote: »
    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    @hrothbern:

    Sorry for this rather late reply, can't really type long replies on a mobile phone, need a PC to do that :/
    hrothbern wrote: »
    DeanTheCat wrote: »
    hrothbern wrote: »
    @DeanTheCat ,
    From your post at page 1:
    you say:
    Remember these?
    Perma-Dodge
    Perma-Block
    Shield-Spamming
    Instagib combos
    Perma-Bolt
    Perma-Cloak
    (To a lesser extent) Breath of Life spam
    None of these would have even been possible if the previous limits on character power were still in place.


    I fail to see how an increase of the max stats enabled Perma-Spamming of above abilities.
    Perma -Spamming needs unlimited Regeneration of resources.

    High stats only allow a longer burst and for HP/DPS features higher values per cast.
    The list from you above contains mainly Utilities, that are not influenced by a high stat.
    BOL was nerfed after removal of the stat caps, so delt with.
    Damage Shields are now critable to compensate for the "no cap" stat effect.
    So... the game balance has been immediately tweaked back by ZOS in a well understood fashion of the "no-cap" change!!!

    @hrothbern

    Thing is, with soft caps, there were also limits on resource regeneration as well as damage. Infinite resources only happens when the regeneration per second exceeds or equals the cost of the ability usage per second. In case you have forgotten how softcaps used to look like, let me post a screenshot of how softcaps used to be in 1.5

    u2fKk1i_zpsbd29aa78.png

    In 1.6, ZoS multiplied the value of all the values by 10, so if you wish to see how your current stats would have looked like in 1.5, simply remove the last digit at the end. In addition, drinks used to be not as potent, and this is a screenshot of a VR5 (At that time max ranked provisioning buffs) purple tristat drink. Compare it to a purple tristat drink of today.

    UUKbco4.png

    As you can see, it is much harder to sustain resources today then it was back in 1.5 when softcaps were present. 1.6k regeneration today is considered "Low regen" and "High Regen" builds have 2.5k+ Primary Stat regeneration, something that wasn't possible under the old system.

    In addition, damage shields are not critable, it has never been critable and it is still not critable.
    So what remains are the CP effects and stacking Vet 16 effects on Resource Regenaration & the CP effects on Resource Costs. Those are not THAT big. The Armor Set reduction of Resource costs are procentual anyway, for all Vet levels the same %. So that does not really contribute to the issue you put forward.

    Try resetting all your champion points, go fight in Cyrodiil for a few hours, and then reassign them.You'll notice a distinctive change in your performance that is noticeable at once. Champion Points matter. For an added challenge, put on your old vr14 gear when you reset your champion points to further see for yourself.
    I would add that decreasing stats by soft caps would even lead to more use of Utilities in general: more use of these abilities and CC abilities.
    Why?
    If the DPS/HPS gets soft capped and Utilities give the same effect, the Utility gets relatively stronger in terms of benefit per cost unit.
    For example with higher HPS from "no cap" eating the damage is a more viable option, with less HPS dodge rolling, avoiding the damage, becomes a more viable option.

    Which was exactly why 1.6 has killed build diversity. Back then, there were many ways of making a viable build, now it's just "Stack X and stack Y, then spam abilities to win". Like I have said before, ESO is a game balanced round resource management, and a lack of limits on resource regeneration will kill the balance.
    But NOT because of removal of the soft caps, but because of maturing of the game with players finding more optimal approaches to the game.

    I have no doubt in my mind that if players can exploit, they will exploit. It's kinda a given fact by this point. 1.6 forced us to relearn the game. If you apply your current 1.6+ strategies to 1.5, you would get wiped. Repeatedly.
    The ony argument I can see where I do agree with your Post is that the more build & play diversity ZOS allows, the more suboptimal choices are possible for players.
    I am absolutely against taking away the free choice of players to do it sub optimal.
    Playing the way you want should give the full diversity possible!

    What's suboptimal to you may not be suboptimal in another situation. A perfect example is Radiant Magelight vs Inner Light. Any PvE player would say RML is suboptimal, while a PvP player would value the added protection Radiant Magelight offers. You cannot use your own narrow definition on what's "Optimal" on everyone. One size does not fit all.
    BTW: I play a build that is sub optimal, but perfectly fits to my lore choices and personal play style.

    edited BTW: My opinion is not biased as well: If soft caps would be re-introduced, my hybrid build will not likely be affected, and becomes relatively substantial stronger.

    I never said your opinion was biased. No need to get so defensive. :)

    @DeanTheCat ,

    Thanks for taking the time to give comprehensive comments to my comment.
    First the "biased" thing. I did add that only to emphasise that my contribution to the discussion was purely on the principles of what should be the best structural concept of our game. So perhaps a bit defensive, but only to people that express themselves in soundbytes to protect their own builds. Reading your nuanced OP I have absolutely not the impression that you belong to those people :)
    And I do welcome very much that we all try to discuss together in a decent style what is best !

    I think we do agree on the issue that we have too much resources!!! :)
    Taking that as the fundamental analysis of the current situation, the question arises "how should that be tackled?".
    You propose to re-introduce the soft cap again for that.
    I think that the increased costs of defensive actions like Blocking, Dodge rolling, Streak are addressing this. I think also that Cloack will get a similar treat as Dodge rol and perhaps some others to in course of time.
    The obvious disadvantage of this, the current ZOS approach, is that you have to make many changes, where as the soft cap would only be 1 change.
    However.... there are more ways to get Mag-Stam than just the straightforward Mag or Stam Regeneration. NB has Siphoning Attacks, DK has Coagulating Blood etc etc.
    IF getting resources would ONLY be possible from the stat Regeneration, I would agree with you.
    But fact is that there are many ways to get resources and THEREFORE the issue of too high resource availibilty must IMO be adressed by increasing costs.

    Increasing the benefits of Drinks feels rightly balanced to me atm.
    As simple thought approach.
    Say I take Food that increases my Mag stat with 4000, that increases my Damage with 400, which is for the sake of this example 10% increase of Damage.
    To have a Drink be a balanced alternative, that Drink should allow me to cast that ability 10% more often.
    That would make the choice between Food and Drink balanced.
    A player that is bursty and kiting would go for the Food.
    A player that needs sustained Damage or Heal with 100% uptime or a long burst will go for the Drink.
    This was not the case with the old ratio of Food and Drink.

    From the two thoughts above:
    It could be... it could implicate... that all DPS & HPS & Shields need an overhaul to increase the cost, to balance higher stat versus higher Regeneration achieved from sets, Food/Drinks, Mundus, etc.

    A totally other consideration for me to be wary to want to propose changes on this whole issue, is that we do not know HOW ZOS has intended to handle the removal of Veteran ranks....
    It could be that this removal will adress the current high Regeneration and stats....

    The problem with your suggested solution of increasing the costs of each skill individually is that it punishes players who didn't game and min-max the system to it's fullest, as these are the people who would be hit the hardest by such changes. The top players who the changes are aimed at would barely feel it, and can easily shrug the nerfs off, while your average joe would be utterly gutted by the changes. The top players also have the funds and resources to shuffle around gear (Though grudgingly) while your average joe barely has enough funds to cobble together one set of armor, let alone multiple sets.

    An example of this would be the recent change to blocking. The no stam regen when blocking was due to certain medium armor perma-block builds who regened round 3k+ stam regen a tick while maintaining sufficient damage and sustainability to have above average damage. ZoS didn't like this, and they applied the no stam regen nerf. This change effectively stopped those builds, but in the process, it gutted the tank playstyle for everyone, from the uber elite to the tanks who could barely tank a vet pledge with severe help from a Templar healer. This resulted in a ton of resentment from the players, as evidenced by thread after thread on the subject. This nerf would never needed to be put in place if softcaps were still present, as the regen levels needed to sustain that sort of build would never have been achieved.

    We cannot balance for the top 5%. We must balance for the average joe, or players will leave. When players leave, we won't have a game left to play. Nerfs always leave a foul taste in the mouth, and the lesser players who have to feel it, the better.

    On the subject of alternative means of restoring resources, these other means of restoring resources often come at a cost that isn't always apparent. For example, a DK spamming Obsidian Shield to recover stamina via Helping Hands is burning Magicka to do so, as well as being forced on the defensive. The Shards synergy from a Templar's Spear requires an allied Templar to throw a spear near you, and you to move over and activate the synergy. A heavy attack to restore resources means that you are not blocking, and you aren't really doing any significant damage (Unless built for it) while recovering with Heavy Attacks. Each one of these means has an opportunity cost, and rewards players who can find openings or work together to achieve said results, while punishing players who lack teamwork and coordination, or make mistakes in their play opening themselves to a riposte. Softcaps helps ensure that these players who cannot avail themselves of such opportunities do not fall too far behind the players who can, as the players who can most likely have the resources available to go for gold.
    EDIT: Spelling


    you say:
    The problem with your suggested solution of increasing the costs of each skill individually is that it punishes players who didn't game and min-max the system to it's fullest, as these are the people who would be hit the hardest by such changes. The top players who the changes are aimed at would barely feel it, and can easily shrug the nerfs off, while your average joe would be utterly gutted by the changes. The top players also have the funds and resources to shuffle around gear (Though grudgingly) while your average joe barely has enough funds to cobble together one set of armor, let alone multiple sets.

    On this topic I did not think through the consequences for the more casual player... to my shame.

    And I agree wholeheartedly with you that in general the game must fit primarily to the normal player base.

    The profi's can take a hike on that platform for extraordinary feats and performance.... the heroic deeds of Profi's may be the inspiration and something to desire for.... but that should not affect the basic game structure, should not affect the pleasure to play for average players.
    And I agree as well on the examples you give for tanks.
    The 100% nerf on Stamina Recovery during blocking could also have been a 50% reduction on Stamina Recovery.(that would als have adressed the issue that ZOS had with this one character with 3k+ Stamina Recovery). Now it slashes the pleasure to play of normal tanks. The work arounds to still get Stamina are complicated. It also complicates cooperation in groups between Tank, Healer and DD's. All true.

    Soft caps will limit the bandwidth of the builds strenght possible, just like the recent cap on CP that can be deployed.
    That keeps the player base more together, which is great.

    Soft caps are no doubt a simple AND robust way to prevent extreme builds and freak performances.
    But that does not take away that it feels unnatural to me.

    In real life, whether the biggest playground ever, the evolution of animals, or the second biggest playground ever, warfare, extreme monstrosities never experienced a long lifetime and big numbers.
    In nature the counter is normally food (an elephant) or to vulnerable (a lion dies of hunger if slightly crippled). In warfare the counter is normally a too heavy logistics system to support (no fuel/ammo) or too slow if too robust or too fragile if too high mobility.
    In both cases the counters are too high costs and too low damage mitigation/avoidance, causing a natural balance, preventing success of the too "strong" or too extreme.

    The fact that extreme builds are succesfull in current ESO means for me that ZOS did not figure out the root balancing... yet!
    A 100% nerf on Stamina Recovery is a nice example of sympton treatment.


    gosh... again a wall of paper....

    To the point:
    My thoughts now are:
    1. Introduce hard caps that prevent too extreme builds for stats, regeneration Spell/Weapon Power. Armor Resistance is already hard capped !
    2. Start root balancing the game, whereby too high stats, regeneration, power and mitigation are relatively expensive, and do not deliver the most optimal builds. Tweak so that optimal builds are not higher than 80% of the hard caps.
    3. Once the root balancing is robust in a couple of years: Remove the hard caps. This allows players to make also extreme builds that fit to their personal play style, at the expense of being a non-optimal build

    Why a hard cap and not a soft cap? Because the development of root balancing needs an analysis without being affected by the side effects of soft caps.

    EDIT added:
    I can also imagine to start the hard cap a bit lower and increase it step by step up over time paralel to introduction of root balancing changes. Allows also for handling stats, regenerations, power at different pace.

    How to root-balance?
    That should be another thread. But just an exemplary thought. Scale the costs of an ability to the scaled damage. Not linear proportional, but enough to hurt. This means that an extreme build with very high stats and power, causing extreme damage, also pays a higher cost. The consequence: you cannot perma-spam anymore the extreme damages.. too expensive. But you can still ambush and burst with extreme damage, if that is your playstyle.


    All of this sounds both more complicated and more confusing than softcaps would be.
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