Cloak Needs A Nerf

CP5

Derra wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I'm a nightblade. I have piercing mark. Cloak is overpowered unless you have piercing mark.

Overpowered in what sense? A nightblade who cloaks continuously for 10 seconds is running away, not fighting anyone. I don't see what this proposed change would solve.

Yea, killing a magicka NB when i am on my DK is a pain in the ass, but that has more to do with healing ward than cloak.

Well all of the NBs called for a streak nerf for this exact reason...

Well it´s not fair if others do it but a valid tactic when doing it yourself - you have to understand the difference here - nightblades have always been and are still a very weak class in dire need of buffs and help.

From my perspective yes, NB's started out (from the official launch) as a heavily broken class that was rendered rather, ineffective, because of their bugs. Over the past year they have received not only bug fixes but also many buffs, and I don't think even trying to call them a very weak class is a good idea. They are a strong class, with a large range of useful skills and strong passives, and if nb's feel they need to spam cloak to stay alive otherwise they are 'so easily killed' i'm sorry but that to me comes down to build and playstyle. If you don't know how to fight back and need cloak spam to save you (not you directly but other nb's that feel they need it) then you clearly aren't using everything the class provides and instead rely on a crutch.

Also, a question for people who primarily use nb's, what do you mean when you say ZOS needs to "fix cloak"? I've used cloak plenty and the only times it has failed me is when an enemy used a detect pot (needs to have some visual to know who can see you) and when I would have died anyway (massive zerg spamming many skills). Do you want a free get out of jail free card, because in all my time using the class I have engaged in many suicidal situations and come out alive because of cloak.

Poxheart

LOL at all the bad Nightblade defending their OP skill in this thread.

Alcast

Fighting Invisbru Enemies is so much fun...><

MrGrimey

Yeah bro, cloak is the most counterable ability in the game.

We can talk penalties once they remove detect pots, mark target and AOE removing cloak

MrGrimey

Oh and sorcs are still bolt escaping like crazy... The lower damage gives them more than enough time to escape, even better than a nb, and there is no counter to bolt escape, unlike cloak which has many counters

CP5

MrGrimey wrote: »

Yeah bro, cloak is the most counterable ability in the game.

We can talk penalties once they remove detect pots, mark target and AOE removing cloak

See, this is what I don't get. NB's say cloak isn't broke and only if all of the hard counters are removed can we dare question the abilities power. What does it mean to "have cloak working"? Free escape from any combat situation? Avoid all damage for the skills duration? All defensive abilities in the game were reduced in power in the update except cloak, do NB's think they can keep saying l2p without talking about that?

Poxheart

MrGrimey wrote: »

Oh and sorcs are still bolt escaping like crazy... The lower damage gives them more than enough time to escape, even better than a nb, and there is no counter to bolt escape, unlike cloak which has many counters

And another bad Nightblade checks into this thread.

CP5

Poxheart wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

Oh and sorcs are still bolt escaping like crazy... The lower damage gives them more than enough time to escape, even better than a nb, and there is no counter to bolt escape, unlike cloak which has many counters

And another bad Nightblade checks into this thread.

Do we talk about gap closers now, or how roots prevent the sorc from changing direction while they bolt?

andy_s

Now when this ability finally started to work more or less properly you already want to nerf it... Which means it will be broken again and will need another year to fix it.

Derra

MrGrimey wrote: »

Yeah bro, cloak is the most counterable ability in the game.

We can talk penalties once they remove detect pots, mark target and AOE removing cloak

By that logic bolt escape should have only taken nerfs after they removed every gapcloser and speedbuff from the game. Boy i´d have liked that approach!

killingspreeb16_ESO

Oh look how many sorc are posting to nerf NB cloak(strange enough most of them are from the shieldbrealer QQ thread),cloak is finally working and now should be nerfed,if you use a counter maybe just MAYBE you will stop cry about a skill that is fine,things like "magelight is not good enough"is like to say gap closer is not enough to counter bolt some time they works other don't,to add a penality some counter need to be removed first.

Poxheart

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Oh look how many sorc are posting to nerf NB cloak(strange enough most of them are from the shieldbrealer QQ thread),cloak is finally working and now should be nerfed,if you use a counter maybe just MAYBE you will stop cry about a skill that is fine,things like "magelight is not good enough"is like to say gap closer is not enough to counter bolt some time they works other don't,to add a penality some counter need to be removed first.

Your signature says it all.

Lava_Croft

So once both classes with escape skills have their escape skills made harder to spam, I guess it's about time to look forward onto how we are going to nerf Breath of Life spam?

Derra

Lava_Croft wrote: »

So once both classes with escape skills have their escape skills made harder to spam, I guess it's about time to look forward onto how we are going to nerf Breath of Life spam?

I´ve got pitchforks and torches ready - you get the angry mob.

nordickittyhawk

m4Je wrote: »

I think it should have the same diminshing returns as other strong defensive skills. It is nearly impossible to catch a good NB spamming this ability. The real issue there is that the escape mechanic is really cheap (no increasing cost or something) and has a very high success rate. This means that every NB who is engaging a fight has a garanteed reset for the fight.

For example if someone is just better with his character and would win 75% of the fights it does not matter because the NB will always escape and speculate for the 25% where the oponent makes mistakes.

But i also think that the cloak must have a stamina morph then, too not hurt stamina builds badly. With meaningful diminishing return the duration could maybe also be buffed again, because such a change would also mean a rebalance.

1).... if it is impossible for you too catch a Nb ... your bad. im so sorry but its true over 15 ways to stop em u cant use one
2) give it a stam pool.... yeah because lets make it so they need to take double stam when dodging or need to block by giving them less stam.

BEST WAY TO DESCRIBE THIS POST... IF YOU CANT STOP A NIGHTBLADE L2P

killingspreeb16_ESO

Poxheart wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Oh look how many sorc are posting to nerf NB cloak(strange enough most of them are from the shieldbrealer QQ thread),cloak is finally working and now should be nerfed,if you use a counter maybe just MAYBE you will stop cry about a skill that is fine,things like "magelight is not good enough"is like to say gap closer is not enough to counter bolt some time they works other don't,to add a penality some counter need to be removed first.

Your signature says it all.

My signature was made to bait people like you Grats!

Aunatar

Derra wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

NB cloak needs to get the same threatment as sorc Streak do.. its the same type of skill that is used to get away from a fight.. so when streak got nerfed so should NB cloak nuff said

Actually cloak is working differently from bolt escape.

I personally think it would be way better to halt magica regen while you´re not visible to any other player while in cloak. Cloak by design needs to be spammed in certain situations to even get it to work. Also there is no way of telling if someone is using a detect potion.
If it were to work like streak you´d pretty much be able to shut it down 100% as a defensive skill. Therefor i´d tie the penatly to the skill actually working (only when your character is hidden).

Couldn't say something better. Just make it work like Mist form, block, dodge roll or streak.

Aunatar

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

NB cloak needs to get the same threatment as sorc Streak do.. its the same type of skill that is used to get away from a fight.. so when streak got nerfed so should NB cloak nuff said

Some hints (at least from a stamblade POV, can't speak for the mageblades):

- Cloak does not get a NB very far away in 2.9 secs (not 3.5 as per the misinformation being posted), if you can make a smart guess on the direction then drop an AOE and reveal them.
- We're going to be trying to get out of sight while cloaked, look for walls, rocks or other bits of scenery where we might be out of LoS chances are that's where we went.
- What skill did we hit with? If they were stamina based then we're probably only going to be able to throw 2, 3, maybe 4, cloaks @3.6k magicka a pop before drying up on magicka, that gives us limited range and if you can break a couple of cloaks then we're probably going to be standing in the open with few resources left waiting for you and your friends to slap us around.

I don't moan about streak because while it is frustrating to have a sorc escape that is the way it goes - you can't expect everyone to simply sit still and die for your pleasure. Equally I'm not going to ask for nerfs to roots that drain my stamina in new found ways since roll costs went mental. And I'm not going to ask for changes to templar skills that allow them to heal through burst in PvP. I'll adapt and win or I'll do my best to escape without dying - and I'll save my complaints for skills that are actually broken (I'm not silly enough to mention the one I mean and get a warning but you know what I mean 2 handed players).
"I came in with a Wreeecking Blooow!"

This comes from another post about Nightblades:

"Cloak, without any reduction, costs about 3500 magicka and lasts 2.9 seconds. You can easily get to 1200 magicka regen with drinks.

Let's pretend you have a pool of 9000 magicka, 0 CP in magician, 0 light armor pieces, 0 cost reduction glyphs and you never break your cloak:
--Without potions; X=time to run OOM in seconds
(3500/2,9)X = 9000+(1200/2)X | X= 14,8s | 14,8s/2,9s= (5,1) 5 Cloaks without going out of stealth
--Now after a V15 tri-stat potion when you are OOM, but still invisible (7391 magicka+major intellect); Y=time added from a potion
(3500/2,9)Y =7391+(1200*1,2/2)Y | Y=15,2s |
Total time spent being invisible= X+Y = (14,8+12,2)s = 27 seconds of TOTAL INVISIBILITY [which means 9 cloaks (9,31)]

Now, just to compare.. Try to streak or roll dodge for 27 seconds with your MAIN (not secondary) resource pool, even using drinks"

I don't think anyone could, even with drinks.

rordogg

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

m4Je wrote: »

I think it should have the same diminshing returns as other strong defensive skills. It is nearly impossible to catch a good NB spamming this ability. The real issue there is that the escape mechanic is really cheap (no increasing cost or something) and has a very high success rate. This means that every NB who is engaging a fight has a garanteed reset for the fight.

For example if someone is just better with his character and would win 75% of the fights it does not matter because the NB will always escape and speculate for the 25% where the oponent makes mistakes.

But i also think that the cloak must have a stamina morph then, too not hurt stamina builds badly. With meaningful diminishing return the duration could maybe also be buffed again, because such a change would also mean a rebalance.

1).... if it is impossible for you too catch a Nb ... your bad. im so sorry but its true over 15 ways to stop em u cant use one
2) give it a stam pool.... yeah because lets make it so they need to take double stam when dodging or need to block by giving them less stam.

BEST WAY TO DESCRIBE THIS POST... IF YOU CANT STOP A NIGHTBLADE L2P

And another bad NB terrified at the thought of not being able to run from a fight evertime.

Reeko

As a magicka nb myself i just either use sap essence or detect pots. I dont even use mark. I really don't see the issue people are having?

There are sooooo many things that wilk break my cloak. Hell somtimes it will break for what seems like no reason. And yes if i'm permacloaking its because im trying to get away dont complain about me NOT killing you.

killingspreeb16_ESO

Reeko wrote: »

As a magicka nb myself i just either use sap essence or detect pots. I dont even use mark. I really don't see the issue people are having?

There are sooooo many things that wilk break my cloak. Hell somtimes it will break for what seems like no reason. And yes if i'm permacloaking its because im trying to get away dont complain about me NOT killing you.

People are just mad if a NB can escape from them,calling you Noob L2P and other BS if you say that cloak can be countered

Like "LOL ALL NB DEFENDING CLOAK" anyways as stamina NB im not focused on cloak and still not finding it hard to counter every class have something that work against cloak,a magika NB can be annoying yes like other class Bolting sorc is annoying too(but stealth as made always bad player cry),if a nerf come to cloak they will just pass to nerf another ability

leepalmer95

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Reeko wrote: »

As a magicka nb myself i just either use sap essence or detect pots. I dont even use mark. I really don't see the issue people are having?

There are sooooo many things that wilk break my cloak. Hell somtimes it will break for what seems like no reason. And yes if i'm permacloaking its because im trying to get away dont complain about me NOT killing you.

People are just mad if a NB can escape from them,calling you Noob L2P and other BS if you say that cloak can be countered

Like "LOL ALL NB DEFENDING CLOAK" anyways as stamina NB im not focused on cloak and still not finding it hard to counter every class have something that work against cloak,a magika NB can be annoying yes like other class Bolting sorc is annoying too(but stealth as made always bad player cry),if a nerf come to cloak they will just pass to nerf another ability

As if a sorc can ever get away with bolt, bolt is 15m, your gap closers are 22, bolt = easy kill because they run out of magicka while your dmging then constantly from gap closers.

Cloak is a different story altogther, you cloak your gone, no one knows where you are, yes they can spam aoe and hope they hit you but with the speed some nb's go they likely won't. You can also be chasing a nb and he'll run to a group of mobs and cloak through them and you'll end up getting the aggro because zos decided to drop packs of mobs every 5 feet and give 1 class the ability to not get aggro.

CP5

Lava_Croft wrote: »

So once both classes with escape skills have their escape skills made harder to spam, I guess it's about time to look forward onto how we are going to nerf Breath of Life spam?

The nerfing will continue until morale improves.

Yiko

I'm a stamina Nightblade. Very rarely do I have issues with other Nightblades getting away from me. I don't even run Piercing Mark. Bombard or Steel Tornado + Caltrops generally are enough to ensure that the Nightblade will fall, given CC and burst damage.

There are absolutely ways to play around it and even counter it.

Some of these proposals are ridiculous. The OP didn't even know the duration of the spell.

killingspreeb16_ESO

leepalmer95 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Reeko wrote: »

As a magicka nb myself i just either use sap essence or detect pots. I dont even use mark. I really don't see the issue people are having?

There are sooooo many things that wilk break my cloak. Hell somtimes it will break for what seems like no reason. And yes if i'm permacloaking its because im trying to get away dont complain about me NOT killing you.

People are just mad if a NB can escape from them,calling you Noob L2P and other BS if you say that cloak can be countered

Like "LOL ALL NB DEFENDING CLOAK" anyways as stamina NB im not focused on cloak and still not finding it hard to counter every class have something that work against cloak,a magika NB can be annoying yes like other class Bolting sorc is annoying too(but stealth as made always bad player cry),if a nerf come to cloak they will just pass to nerf another ability

As if a sorc can ever get away with bolt, bolt is 15m, your gap closers are 22, bolt = easy kill because they run out of magicka while your dmging then constantly from gap closers.

Cloak is a different story altogther, you cloak your gone, no one knows where you are, yes they can spam aoe and hope they hit you but with the speed some nb's go they likely won't. You can also be chasing a nb and he'll run to a group of mobs and cloak through them and you'll end up getting the aggro because zos decided to drop packs of mobs every 5 feet and give 1 class the ability to not get aggro.

No is not if bolt is was so easy to counter was not nerfed,there is no potion that stop you skill working,magelight is not stopping you from bolting,aoe don't stop you from bolting Bolt work always,cloak in the other hand get countered by many thing that people refuse to use because reason,if you want to add a penality to cloak im fine (if is not too big to destroy the skill for every stamina nb)but some counter need to be removed.

every time i read one of your post about sorc is like the class is dead,countered by everything and easily killable in a CC

Wollust

Lava_Croft wrote: »

So once both classes with escape skills have their escape skills made harder to spam, I guess it's about time to look forward onto how we are going to nerf Breath of Life spam?

Hey, it's simply not fair that I can not streak or cloak or breath of life on my dk, that's why those skills need nerfs.
Sums pretty much up how loads of the people complaining here on the forums seem to think.

Master_Kas

Derra wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

NB cloak needs to get the same threatment as sorc Streak do.. its the same type of skill that is used to get away from a fight.. so when streak got nerfed so should NB cloak nuff said

Actually cloak is working differently from bolt escape.

I personally think it would be way better to halt magica regen while you´re not visible to any other player while in cloak. Cloak by design needs to be spammed in certain situations to even get it to work. Also there is no way of telling if someone is using a detect potion.
If it were to work like streak you´d pretty much be able to shut it down 100% as a defensive skill. Therefor i´d tie the penatly to the skill actually working (only when your character is hidden).

Never thought I'd say this, but..

If any nerf, this one I agree on. When it works you can have a penalty, when it doesn't: no penalty.

Or give us a class damage shield scaling of magicka/stamina

Master_Kas

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Reeko wrote: »

As a magicka nb myself i just either use sap essence or detect pots. I dont even use mark. I really don't see the issue people are having?

There are sooooo many things that wilk break my cloak. Hell somtimes it will break for what seems like no reason. And yes if i'm permacloaking its because im trying to get away dont complain about me NOT killing you.

People are just mad if a NB can escape from them,calling you Noob L2P and other BS if you say that cloak can be countered

Like "LOL ALL NB DEFENDING CLOAK" anyways as stamina NB im not focused on cloak and still not finding it hard to counter every class have something that work against cloak,a magika NB can be annoying yes like other class Bolting sorc is annoying too(but stealth as made always bad player cry),if a nerf come to cloak they will just pass to nerf another ability

As if a sorc can ever get away with bolt, bolt is 15m, your gap closers are 22, bolt = easy kill because they run out of magicka while your dmging then constantly from gap closers.

Cloak is a different story altogther, you cloak your gone, no one knows where you are, yes they can spam aoe and hope they hit you but with the speed some nb's go they likely won't. You can also be chasing a nb and he'll run to a group of mobs and cloak through them and you'll end up getting the aggro because zos decided to drop packs of mobs every 5 feet and give 1 class the ability to not get aggro.

No is not if bolt is was so easy to counter was not nerfed,there is no potion that stop you skill working,magelight is not stopping you from bolting,aoe don't stop you from bolting Bolt work always,cloak in the other hand get countered by many thing that people refuse to use because reason,if you want to add a penality to cloak im fine (if is not too big to destroy the skill for every stamina nb)but some counter need to be removed.

every time i read one of your post about sorc is like the class is dead,countered by everything and easily killable in a CC

This guy claims he play stamina dk but defends sorcerers on every chance he gets

Xvorg

Does the OP know that a cloaked NB is a NB who's not doing anything but running away? He's not hurting, neither stunning his enemies. The skill has almost no use besides being a escape, except in the case of the combo cloak + veiled strike, which requiers a lot of skill to be used with the always in-movement enemies in cyrodil.

I think the complaint here is not because game balance, but about APs (xD). Sure, cloak could be improved in several ways such as, what about a 4/5 seconds vanish without resource regeneration?

Or, if it is too hard to see what is supposed it shouldn't be seen , what about changing ths skill into a multiple images version, like the wispmother skill, with 3 images running away from you? You will still have 1/3 chances to get the real NB.

Anyway, if devs approve your idea and nerf the cloak, what comes next? Nerf mass hysteria? Nerf shadow image? Nerf double take?

killingspreeb16_ESO

Master_Kas wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Reeko wrote: »

As a magicka nb myself i just either use sap essence or detect pots. I dont even use mark. I really don't see the issue people are having?

There are sooooo many things that wilk break my cloak. Hell somtimes it will break for what seems like no reason. And yes if i'm permacloaking its because im trying to get away dont complain about me NOT killing you.

People are just mad if a NB can escape from them,calling you Noob L2P and other BS if you say that cloak can be countered

Like "LOL ALL NB DEFENDING CLOAK" anyways as stamina NB im not focused on cloak and still not finding it hard to counter every class have something that work against cloak,a magika NB can be annoying yes like other class Bolting sorc is annoying too(but stealth as made always bad player cry),if a nerf come to cloak they will just pass to nerf another ability

As if a sorc can ever get away with bolt, bolt is 15m, your gap closers are 22, bolt = easy kill because they run out of magicka while your dmging then constantly from gap closers.

Cloak is a different story altogther, you cloak your gone, no one knows where you are, yes they can spam aoe and hope they hit you but with the speed some nb's go they likely won't. You can also be chasing a nb and he'll run to a group of mobs and cloak through them and you'll end up getting the aggro because zos decided to drop packs of mobs every 5 feet and give 1 class the ability to not get aggro.

No is not if bolt is was so easy to counter was not nerfed,there is no potion that stop you skill working,magelight is not stopping you from bolting,aoe don't stop you from bolting Bolt work always,cloak in the other hand get countered by many thing that people refuse to use because reason,if you want to add a penality to cloak im fine (if is not too big to destroy the skill for every stamina nb)but some counter need to be removed.

every time i read one of your post about sorc is like the class is dead,countered by everything and easily killable in a CC

This guy claims he play stamina dk but defends sorcerers on every chance he gets

Maybe his first character was a dk then rerolled sorc in 1.6 now since sorc got some nerf he jumped back to the dk or he is just lying since sorc are still strong and much better than dk