Cloak Needs A Nerf

Tavore1138

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

NB cloak needs to get the same threatment as sorc Streak do.. its the same type of skill that is used to get away from a fight.. so when streak got nerfed so should NB cloak nuff said

LOL, when I can move as far and as quickly under a single cloak as a sorc can streak then bring it on.

But isn't this thread and those like it just more in the long line of 'Please can NBs stand still so I can hit them easier' threads?

The class is supposed to be mobile & sneaky, we lack inherent shields or serious healing so this is where we make up for it - it's supposed to be difficult to catch us and find us if we are trying not to be found.

I mean I do get it - IC dropped at the same time as they (almost) fixed cloak so it is finally working in an environment that is friendly to ganksters, getting burst down is frustrating... surviving the burst and then having the attacker get away doubly so... but that's the IC meta... and while you are here asking for key class tools to be removed plenty of other players are out killing cloaked NBs by understanding how the game mechanics work.

Some hints (at least from a stamblade POV, can't speak for the mageblades):

- Cloak does not get a NB very far away in 2.9 secs (not 3.5 as per the misinformation being posted), if you can make a smart guess on the direction then drop an AOE and reveal them.
- We're going to be trying to get out of sight while cloaked, look for walls, rocks or other bits of scenery where we might be out of LoS chances are that's where we went.
- What skill did we hit with? If they were stamina based then we're probably only going to be able to throw 2, 3, maybe 4, cloaks @3.6k magicka a pop before drying up on magicka, that gives us limited range and if you can break a couple of cloaks then we're probably going to be standing in the open with few resources left waiting for you and your friends to slap us around.

I don't moan about streak because while it is frustrating to have a sorc escape that is the way it goes - you can't expect everyone to simply sit still and die for your pleasure. Equally I'm not going to ask for nerfs to roots that drain my stamina in new found ways since roll costs went mental. And I'm not going to ask for changes to templar skills that allow them to heal through burst in PvP. I'll adapt and win or I'll do my best to escape without dying - and I'll save my complaints for skills that are actually broken (I'm not silly enough to mention the one I mean and get a warning but you know what I mean 2 handed players).

Jprip88b16_ESO

It's easy in threads to see who plays NB and who dont.. people never do like balance when its their class thats gonna take the hit to balance it out

Tavore1138

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

It's easy in threads to see who plays NB and who dont.. people never do like balance when its their class thats gonna take the hit to balance it out

Yes, good plan - ignore any points made and keep claiming what you want us to believe is the truth - ever considered politics as a hobby since gaming is clearly not your forte?

Jprip88b16_ESO

im not the one who dont want a balance in the game

Tavore1138

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

im not the one who dont want a balance in the game

The only way to balance a game perfectly is to give everyone exactly the same skills, doing exactly the same damage with exactly the same stats wearing exactly the same gear - I think we'd all be very bored.

As I spent some time pointing out cloak is a useful tool with limited use and plenty of counters, the fact that instead of countering my words you chose to just ignore them and play the straw man instead of the debate is not really my problem.

Jprip88b16_ESO

i have pointet out that since streak got nerfed for being used as a get out of fight tool so needs NB cloak... at a sorc u can at least see where he/she go with a NB perma spam cloak u cant, so in that point of view cloak is stronger then streak ever was

Tavore1138

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

i have pointet out that since streak got nerfed for being used as a get out of fight tool so needs NB cloak... at a sorc u can at least see where he/she go with a NB perma spam cloak u cant, so in that point of view cloak is stronger then streak ever was

But you seem to not realise that they are two very different skills - streak gets you much further and is instant travel, use it twice and you are far out of anyone's combat range - it also includes a damage/stun skill within it.

Cloak simply gives you a brief limited mask assuming no player or mob aoe/counter skills are active during which you may or may not be able to get away from whatever is attacking you.

You are trying to say that because your aeroplane got nerfed they should take a wheel of my bicycle when they already took the other wheel in the last patch (i.e. the ability to roll more than once).

Devotion

Cloak is fine, it has several counters when people can be bothered to slot them.

Give me something to stop healers healing or sorcs streaking and then we can talk.

Jprip88b16_ESO

how is dodge roll over all nerf something to do with NB cloak?

Tavore1138

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

how is dodge roll over all nerf something to do with NB cloak?

Because for a stamina NB roll was one way to get out of your talons/encase or your AOE and frankly that realistically took 2/3 rolls to reach a distance which we cannot do - so then cloak becomes the only way to get out of combat range and now you want to take that too and we can't even block now.

So for a melee/stamina build options for mobility and self-defence are gradually being taken away - removing cloak jst makes us mopre weak compared to other classes.

Don't get me wrong stamblades are used to this having spent most of year 1 as the poor relation but it sucks to have become competitive just to see thread after thread dedicated to nerfing us back to square one.

leepalmer95

Devotion wrote: »

Cloak is fine, it has several counters when people can be bothered to slot them.

Give me something to stop healers healing or sorcs streaking and then we can talk.

Healers = defile
Sorc = gap closer

These have been in the game for a long time.

Cloak = randomly spam aoe and hope you hit them the first time otherwise the nb is gone.

Sharee

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Devotion wrote: »

Cloak is fine, it has several counters when people can be bothered to slot them.

Give me something to stop healers healing or sorcs streaking and then we can talk.

Healers = defile
Sorc = gap closer

These have been in the game for a long time.

Cloak = randomly spam aoe and hope you hit them the first time otherwise the nb is gone.

Radiant magelight. Detection potions. Piercing mark. These haven't been in the game for a long time?

Jprip88b16_ESO

u know no one can basicly block anymore besides DK's with green dragons blood.. and NB have never been weak at VR12 patch they where not weak either just people that need to understand how to play em, and not focus all on MAX DAMAGE! people back then said the same thing about templars and that was BS aswell VR12 patch was the MOST balanced patch by FAR

Tavore1138

VR12 was when NBs and Temps started to catch up, I'd say 1.4/1.5 was when we started being on a par - I judge that from that being the point where people would let NBs into trails runs.

Stam builds in general saw some mild nerfs in 1.6/2.0 but we got away with them because between nirn and the mace bug we could offset them until IC/2.1/1.7.

This time round stamblades got a good set of pain - our class passive dropped from 30% regen to 15% regen (and great for some that it added heahth/magicka just not for us). Those of us using WW to get regen got hosed on that - again not unfair in itself but another hit on the build type. We also got hit by the block changes and the roll changes. All damage sets took a hit too. So all in all this was a bad patch for us - now everyone seems to want to take one of our few remaining survival tools away because magicka guys can spam it like magicka guys can spam any skill based on magicka and the worry is that ZOS will listen to the complainers yet again and we'll have nothing left.

Garion

Sharee wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I'm a nightblade. I have piercing mark. Cloak is overpowered unless you have piercing mark.

Overpowered in what sense? A nightblade who cloaks continuously for 10 seconds is running away, not fighting anyone. I don't see what this proposed change would solve.

Yea, killing a magicka NB when i am on my DK is a pain in the ass, but that has more to do with healing ward than cloak.

Well all of the NBs called for a streak nerf for this exact reason...

Derra

Garion wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I'm a nightblade. I have piercing mark. Cloak is overpowered unless you have piercing mark.

Overpowered in what sense? A nightblade who cloaks continuously for 10 seconds is running away, not fighting anyone. I don't see what this proposed change would solve.

Yea, killing a magicka NB when i am on my DK is a pain in the ass, but that has more to do with healing ward than cloak.

Well all of the NBs called for a streak nerf for this exact reason...

Well it´s not fair if others do it but a valid tactic when doing it yourself - you have to understand the difference here - nightblades have always been and are still a very weak class in dire need of buffs and help.

Tavore1138

Garion wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I'm a nightblade. I have piercing mark. Cloak is overpowered unless you have piercing mark.

Overpowered in what sense? A nightblade who cloaks continuously for 10 seconds is running away, not fighting anyone. I don't see what this proposed change would solve.

Yea, killing a magicka NB when i am on my DK is a pain in the ass, but that has more to do with healing ward than cloak.

Well all of the NBs called for a streak nerf for this exact reason...

So your argument is basically spite and revenge? (Also can't be 'all' because I didn't - ambush can counter streak, takes a bit of skill & luck to time it right but it can be done)

Derra

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I'm a nightblade. I have piercing mark. Cloak is overpowered unless you have piercing mark.

Overpowered in what sense? A nightblade who cloaks continuously for 10 seconds is running away, not fighting anyone. I don't see what this proposed change would solve.

Yea, killing a magicka NB when i am on my DK is a pain in the ass, but that has more to do with healing ward than cloak.

Well all of the NBs called for a streak nerf for this exact reason...

So your argument is basically spite and revenge? (Also can't be 'all' because I didn't - ambush can counter streak, takes a bit of skill & luck to time it right but it can be done)

No the argument is NOT spite and revenge but it´s for the sake of equality. It´s clearely not desired by the games designers for any class to disengage from combat at will so when the ability to do so gets removed from one class it´s only fair to do so for the others aswell.

Tavore1138

Derra wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I'm a nightblade. I have piercing mark. Cloak is overpowered unless you have piercing mark.

Overpowered in what sense? A nightblade who cloaks continuously for 10 seconds is running away, not fighting anyone. I don't see what this proposed change would solve.

Yea, killing a magicka NB when i am on my DK is a pain in the ass, but that has more to do with healing ward than cloak.

Well all of the NBs called for a streak nerf for this exact reason...

So your argument is basically spite and revenge? (Also can't be 'all' because I didn't - ambush can counter streak, takes a bit of skill & luck to time it right but it can be done)

No the argument is NOT spite and revenge but it´s for the sake of equality. It´s clearely not desired by the games designers for any class to disengage from combat at will so when the ability to do so gets removed from one class it´s only fair to do so for the others aswell.

'The' argument may not be - his seems to be

I don't think we know what they intended as they have never been clear - it is possible that they do want NBs to keep manoeuvrability in keeping with our stealthy nature. It seems unlikely they would spend over a year trying to get the skill to actually work in time for their new gankfest only to nerf it 3 weeks later.

Garion

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I'm a nightblade. I have piercing mark. Cloak is overpowered unless you have piercing mark.

Overpowered in what sense? A nightblade who cloaks continuously for 10 seconds is running away, not fighting anyone. I don't see what this proposed change would solve.

Yea, killing a magicka NB when i am on my DK is a pain in the ass, but that has more to do with healing ward than cloak.

Well all of the NBs called for a streak nerf for this exact reason...

So your argument is basically spite and revenge? (Also can't be 'all' because I didn't - ambush can counter streak, takes a bit of skill & luck to time it right but it can be done)

No the argument is NOT spite and revenge but it´s for the sake of equality. It´s clearely not desired by the games designers for any class to disengage from combat at will so when the ability to do so gets removed from one class it´s only fair to do so for the others aswell.

'The' argument may not be - his seems to be

I don't think we know what they intended as they have never been clear - it is possible that they do want NBs to keep manoeuvrability in keeping with our stealthy nature. It seems unlikely they would spend over a year trying to get the skill to actually work in time for their new gankfest only to nerf it 3 weeks later.

It's not my argument at all. I was merely pointing out that I find Sharee's point funny, given that so many NBs called for a streak nerf because of the fact it allowed you to escape from combat. That's not okay, but when a nightblade is doing it, it's fine!

Ganj

Damn i should open a topic on this subject too. Beucase 4 topics not enough obviously. And no any kinda nerf to cloak would kill stam nb. Most of them have 9-13k magicka so they cant spam cloak anyway. Im not gonna even mention that there are more than 10 ways to counter cloak for every class. Its even useless to argue that. It is balanced at the moment. People should just leave farming TV stones next to their base like a sheep flock instead of complaining about cloak. So maybe they can learn how to counter their opponents abilities.

Derra

Ganj wrote: »

Damn i should open a topic on this subject too. Beucase 4 topics not enough obviously. And no any kinda nerf to cloak would kill stam nb. Most of them have 9-13k magicka so they cant spam cloak anyway. Im not gonna even mention that there are more than 10 ways to counter cloak for every class. Its even useless to argue that. It is balanced at the moment. People should just leave farming TV stones next to their base like a sheep flock instead of complaining about cloak. So maybe they can learn how to counter their opponents abilities.

The only vaible counter to cloak widely available to magica builds is a detect potion (vaible as in widely accessable and not a single purpose skill)

I´ve posted my personal approach for that matter a couple of times now in various topics: I´d halt magica regen for nb but ONLY while you´re actually cloaked and not detected in any form.
Cloak by it´s design needs to be spammed sometimes to get it to work - or to take benefit of the secondary effects.

I also like the idea of the op to give diminishing returns on the duration - also with the addition of not giving a penatly when cloak is not working.

eliisra

Garion wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I'm a nightblade. I have piercing mark. Cloak is overpowered unless you have piercing mark.

Overpowered in what sense? A nightblade who cloaks continuously for 10 seconds is running away, not fighting anyone. I don't see what this proposed change would solve.

Yea, killing a magicka NB when i am on my DK is a pain in the ass, but that has more to do with healing ward than cloak.

Well all of the NBs called for a streak nerf for this exact reason...

So your argument is basically spite and revenge? (Also can't be 'all' because I didn't - ambush can counter streak, takes a bit of skill & luck to time it right but it can be done)

No the argument is NOT spite and revenge but it´s for the sake of equality. It´s clearely not desired by the games designers for any class to disengage from combat at will so when the ability to do so gets removed from one class it´s only fair to do so for the others aswell.

'The' argument may not be - his seems to be

I don't think we know what they intended as they have never been clear - it is possible that they do want NBs to keep manoeuvrability in keeping with our stealthy nature. It seems unlikely they would spend over a year trying to get the skill to actually work in time for their new gankfest only to nerf it 3 weeks later.

It's not my argument at all. I was merely pointing out that I find Sharee's point funny, given that so many NBs called for a streak nerf because of the fact it allowed you to escape from combat. That's not okay, but when a nightblade is doing it, it's fine!

I know, I'm almost laughing, so much deja-vu. Nightblades rationalizing their right to escape at will, with exact same arguments sorcs used over a year.

1. Sounds like a L2P issue
2. When escaping I'm not attacking
3. You mad?
4. But it's so easy to counter
5. I dont have any self heals
6. Troll post?!

Extra funny, since many of these guys used to rage about sorcs getting away. Double standards much?

Meanwhile it's pretty clear, that ZoS doesn't want anyone to get away. Everyone needs to die to zerg. Why I wouldn't be surprised if Cloak gets adjusted soon enough.

WalksAmongShadows

Derra wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

NB cloak needs to get the same threatment as sorc Streak do.. its the same type of skill that is used to get away from a fight.. so when streak got nerfed so should NB cloak nuff said

Actually cloak is working differently from bolt escape.

I personally think it would be way better to halt magica regen while you´re not visible to any other player while in cloak. Cloak by design needs to be spammed in certain situations to even get it to work. Also there is no way of telling if someone is using a detect potion.
If it were to work like streak you´d pretty much be able to shut it down 100% as a defensive skill. Therefor i´d tie the penatly to the skill actually working (only when your character is hidden).

I think you have a good idea here, perhaps completely halt magicka regen or reduce it by certain percentage, needs some testing first.

Tavore1138

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

NB cloak needs to get the same threatment as sorc Streak do.. its the same type of skill that is used to get away from a fight.. so when streak got nerfed so should NB cloak nuff said

Actually cloak is working differently from bolt escape.

I personally think it would be way better to halt magica regen while you´re not visible to any other player while in cloak. Cloak by design needs to be spammed in certain situations to even get it to work. Also there is no way of telling if someone is using a detect potion.
If it were to work like streak you´d pretty much be able to shut it down 100% as a defensive skill. Therefor i´d tie the penatly to the skill actually working (only when your character is hidden).

I think you have a good idea here, perhaps completely halt magicka regen or reduce it by certain percentage, needs some testing first.

Yes, if something really needs to be done about it then this seems like an approach that isn't killing those of us who use it as intended. Personally with all these skills (cloak, streak, block, roll) I'd allow a low but decent usage before additional penalties kick in - 2 or 3 uses and then no more stamina/magicka regen depending on skill. If it is the perma-people you are looking to prevent not the use of the skill itself then allowing a couple of penalty free uses seems fair, otherwise be honest and call for the skill to be removed altogether.

Ernest145

Yonkit wrote: »

Detect Potions, Radiant Magelight, Any form of AoE, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, Piercing Mark, NPCs, Roaming Bosses, Charge Attacks. It's your fault for not using the counters available, don't come to the forums and complain about an issue that only affects lazy individuals.

Detect potions - with the nerf to them they aren't really worth it when the night blade can los and cloak or shade and have all the mobs aggro you
Magelight- it is crap and does nothing and you know it
Caltrops & flare- only good for a night blade who isn't using shuffle and/or shade
Piercing mark- good counter but guess what, it is only available to night blades gg ZOS.
Npcs- you mean the npcs you can cloak from and have them aggro you enemies???
Charge attacks- fear then cloak boom fixed

Sabre is one of the top night blades and even he admits cloak is overpowered. I have a majicka nightblade and it is unbelievably easy to escape and reengage whenever i want to. I have had enemies use every single "counter" you said works and I can say 9 times out of 10 they don't work.

Sharee

Garion wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I'm a nightblade. I have piercing mark. Cloak is overpowered unless you have piercing mark.

Overpowered in what sense? A nightblade who cloaks continuously for 10 seconds is running away, not fighting anyone. I don't see what this proposed change would solve.

Yea, killing a magicka NB when i am on my DK is a pain in the ass, but that has more to do with healing ward than cloak.

Well all of the NBs called for a streak nerf for this exact reason...

No. The reason why people (everyone, not just NBs) called for a streak nerf is the fact that there is no potion that would make streak use magicka and then not work, there is no skill that would make streak use magicka and then not work.

For cloak, there is both.

Garion

Sharee wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I'm a nightblade. I have piercing mark. Cloak is overpowered unless you have piercing mark.

Overpowered in what sense? A nightblade who cloaks continuously for 10 seconds is running away, not fighting anyone. I don't see what this proposed change would solve.

Yea, killing a magicka NB when i am on my DK is a pain in the ass, but that has more to do with healing ward than cloak.

Well all of the NBs called for a streak nerf for this exact reason...

No. The reason why people (everyone, not just NBs) called for a streak nerf is the fact that there is no potion that would make streak use magicka and then not work, there is no skill that would make streak use magicka and then not work.

For cloak, there is both.

Lol okay

ToRelax

If you want to use the skill to get away, then combine it with Shadow Image, it takes a few seconds to get away with only Cloak, so use your gap opener maybe?
I mean, that's like saying I have such a hard time to escape as a Sorc by just spamming shields and running away with Lightning Form, because I don't want to use Bolt Escape.

saiyan_84

Nightblades are a stealth assassin type class. A class designed around stealth is common in any MMO. The class is designed to hit hard and run. They are squishy as *** if you didnt go tank. Magicka nbs would be squishy as *** as well if shields were made critable but ZoS is STILL refusing to do that which doesnt make any sense to me. Instead ZoS forces people to equip a lame ass 5 piece armor set but thats a discussion for another day.

The real problem is the 50% damage nerf. "OH Im getting ganked by a class designed to gank people boohoo Woe is me. Im so great at this game I shouldnt even take one death. ZoS do something" (just had to get that out there) With the 50% dmg nerf, ZoS made TTK longer. Most people hit like a wet noodle right now which is making the counters to stealth seem like garbage. Magelight for example. Using it gives you a small window of opportunity to kill a nb spamming cloak. In 1.6, thats all you needed. You pop magelight and you see that pesky nightblade and boom you close the gap and YOU HAD THE DMG TO KILL HIM. Now with the 50% dmg nerf, most people dont have the dmg to bring that nightblade down in the window that magelight gives. So he does what hes suppose to do, HIT AND RUN.

I think all counters to cloak do exactly that, with the exception of piercing mark which does its job very well. They give you a small window of opportunity to kill the nightblade. Right now, people dont have the damage to take advantage of that opportunity. Do you want nightblades to apologize for it? Hell no man. ZoS did that so deal with it.