Cloak Needs A Nerf
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Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Darnathian wrote: »
How exactly were shields nerfed? No they were not. Sorc shield stacking is still supreme. Equally skilled nb vrs sorc the sorc will always win still.
False I tear through magicka shield stacking sorcs. Without shield breaker.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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revonine✭✭✭✭
False I tear through magicka shield stacking sorcs. Without shield breaker.
My own experience corroborates Cathexis' claims. Hardened Ward and Healing Ward are considerably less powerful than they were in 1.6 and it's easy for a well geared stamina user to break through. Many sorcs now are putting more points back into health and running Combat Prayer to combat this. The shield stackers in this patch with zero points into health once I get their shields down are into execute range after a fear and small burst. And I'm not even that well geared.2 -
Gunphu✭✭✭
My own experience corroborates Cathexis' claims. Hardened Ward and Healing Ward are considerably less powerful than they were in 1.6 and it's easy for a well geared stamina user to break through. Many sorcs now are putting more points back into health and running Combat Prayer to combat this. The shield stackers in this patch with zero points into health once I get their shields down are into execute range after a fear and small burst. And I'm not even that well geared.
So they cant stand out in the open and tank 5 people with ease anymore. The problem is sorcs still try to stand there and just spam shields. Now they have to use LoS and think before bolting around and use strategy. But with the nerf to shields and the over nerf to bolt (should of been like 20% more) the shield breaker should get adjusted. Put a 3 second codown on it and reduce damage.
Also increase the affectiveness of the light armor CP tree by a significant amount.
If you nerf cloak nothing should pull them out of cloak and get rid of potions. Everyone forgets NBs fight each other and have to run counters specificaly for NBs. I personally run caltrops or steal tornado and they work great.
Edited by Gunphu on October 9, 2015 11:48PM0 -
revonine✭✭✭✭Well the fact you can heavily mitigate magic and elemental damage but not physical with CP is ridiculous too.Edited by revonine on October 10, 2015 12:13AM0
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Rayste✭✭✭
My own experience corroborates Cathexis' claims. Hardened Ward and Healing Ward are considerably less powerful than they were in 1.6 and it's easy for a well geared stamina user to break through. Many sorcs now are putting more points back into health and running Combat Prayer to combat this. The shield stackers in this patch with zero points into health once I get their shields down are into execute range after a fear and small burst. And I'm not even that well geared.
I can confirm this on the receiving end. Well played stamina builds do not need to use shield breaker set to kill even good sorcs.The Teach - AD Templar0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
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False I tear through magicka shield stacking sorcs. Without shield breaker.
Class?0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
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My own experience corroborates Cathexis' claims. Hardened Ward and Healing Ward are considerably less powerful than they were in 1.6 and it's easy for a well geared stamina user to break through. Many sorcs now are putting more points back into health and running Combat Prayer to combat this. The shield stackers in this patch with zero points into health once I get their shields down are into execute range after a fear and small burst. And I'm not even that well geared.
Because you are a NB!!!!!!!! Lol0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Darnathian wrote: »
Class?
Stamina Sorcerer.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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kadar✭✭✭✭✭
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But you can't just simply remove the player variable to satisfy the argument that one skill completely negates another. That doesn't work. You're putting all the skills in a vacuum and not considering the idea that the player's response can directly influence the impact of a counter. The only skill/counter combo you listed that might be a hard counter when you take that into consideration is a dot/purge interaction, and even then dots still do damage before the purge. Every supposed hard counter you mentioned is circumstantial. Dodge roll only counters wrecking blow if the end of the roll occurs after the swing and outside its range. Players influence both the direction of rolls and the subsequent positioning of the wrecking blow. Same goes for caltrops, detect pots, steel tornade, etcetc.
I'm not removing player variables. I am considering the "response" of BOTH players. While you, are considering only the response of the NB. How is that a fair comparison?
A NB counters a detect pot by moving away from it, right? By your argument, detect pots don't hard counter Cloak because the NB can move away from the potion user. What you are not considering is that the user of the detect pot is moving toward the NB.
Given that the NB is within the radius of the potion, there is nothing he can do to make Cloak perform it's intended function. That is the definition of a hard counter.
Cloak will never function inside caltrops. Dots will never tick after they have been purged. WB will never hit a dodging player. Shield Breaker will always pass through a shield.1 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well 0.5% of sorcs had super op shields and teleport.
Both got nerfed bc if these few players. Why should it be different for NBs.
0.5% or Sorcs running shields and BE in 1.6 were OP? What? I must have a different definition of super OP in mind...
By slotting those two skills and putting all points in Magicka, even a mediocre player could face tank 8 people and systematically destroy them with their also massive dps numbers. All while wearing a dress.
The comparison between Sorcs in 1.6 and MNBs in 1.7 is a weak one at best. There is a minuscule number of MNBs who can pull off something similar to the above (which was easily achieved by a large number of players).2 -
revonine✭✭✭✭Darnathian wrote: »
Because you are a NB!!!!!!!! Lol
And Cathexis is a stamsorc. You think stamina NB's hit hard because they're NB's? Stamina Sorcs, Templars and DK hit crazy hard too. I believe I've seen a vid of a stamina DK absolutely wrecking face with heavy bow attacks from stealth and molten weapons from this patch. And I thought NB's hit hard from stealth. Stamina Sorcerers have movement speeds comparable to a Magicka NB in stealth they can fly across the map all the while having the damage of a stamina user. Stamina Templars have huge upfront damage with Biting Jabs.
There's a reason even sorcerers are switching to stamina now. The top ten leaderboards in Asura's on PS4 has a stamsorc in it. Second place last I checked with 6 days to go on the campaign.Edited by revonine on October 10, 2015 11:56PM0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
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And Cathexis is a stamsorc. You think stamina NB's hit hard because they're NB's? Stamina Sorcs, Templars and DK hit crazy hard too. I believe I've seen a vid of a stamina DK absolutely wrecking face with heavy bow attacks from stealth and molten weapons from this patch. And I thought NB's hit hard from stealth. Stamina Sorcerers have movement speeds comparable to a Magicka NB in stealth they can fly across the map all the while having the damage of a stamina user. Stamina Templars have huge upfront damage with Biting Jabs.
There's a reason even sorcerers are switching to stamina now. The top ten leaderboards in Asura's on PS4 has a stamsorc in it. Second place last I checked with 6 days to go on the campaign.
Stamina nightblades were never the specific problem being addressed. The problem being addressed was the nb capacity to spam cloak indefinitely as a means to avoid damage and the capacity to use mobs as an instant escape. Also a significantly greater proportion of most leaderboards are now nightblades.The_Outsider wrote: »
I'm not removing player variables. I am considering the "response" of BOTH players. While you, are considering only the response of the NB. How is that a fair comparison?
A NB counters a detect pot by moving away from it, right? By your argument, detect pots don't hard counter Cloak because the NB can move away from the potion user. What you are not considering is that the user of the detect pot is moving toward the NB.
Given that the NB is within the radius of the potion, there is nothing he can do to make Cloak perform it's intended function. That is the definition of a hard counter.
Cloak will never function inside caltrops. Dots will never tick after they have been purged. WB will never hit a dodging player. Shield Breaker will always pass through a shield.
@The_Outsider
I'm not only considering the response of the nightblade with respect to counters, in fact that was exactly my point. The player interaction directly influences the concept of what is considered a hard counter, and as I said in my last post, you can't just declare a counter infallible without considering the players on either end. Hense my original point which is that a counter isn't a dedicated I win button, it is just a means to keep up with the opponent. The problem with cloak spam is that it allows the nightblade to expend the resources of their opponent indefinitely to keep , at a significantly higher cost.
Yes the user is moving toward the nightblade, but that doesn't mean nightblades are incapable of evading a potion. Evade the potion > cloak functions.
Lastly I'd like to return to an important point which has also been made which is to remind nightblades that they not only have cloak but some of the best mobility skills and CC in the game.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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CP5✭✭✭✭✭
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Stamina nightblades were never the specific problem being addressed. The problem being addressed was the nb capacity to spam cloak indefinitely as a means to avoid damage and the capacity to use mobs as an instant escape. Also a significantly greater proportion of most leaderboards are now nightblades.
@The_Outsider
I'm not only considering the response of the nightblade with respect to counters, in fact that was exactly my point. The player interaction directly influences the concept of what is considered a hard counter, and as I said in my last post, you can't just declare a counter infallible without considering the players on either end. Hense my original point which is that a counter isn't a dedicated I win button, it is just a means to keep up with the opponent. The problem with cloak spam is that it allows the nightblade to expend the resources of their opponent indefinitely to keep , at a significantly higher cost.
Yes the user is moving toward the nightblade, but that doesn't mean nightblades are incapable of evading a potion. Evade the potion > cloak functions.
Lastly I'd like to return to an important point which has also been made which is to remind nightblades that they not only have cloak but some of the best mobility skills and CC in the game.
Like fear moving a target away and then snaring them, or cripple giving the nb a speed buff and snaring their target, or the shade to teleport to when away from the detector.0 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
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Stamina nightblades were never the specific problem being addressed. The problem being addressed was the nb capacity to spam cloak indefinitely as a means to avoid damage and the capacity to use mobs as an instant escape. Also a significantly greater proportion of most leaderboards are now nightblades.
@The_Outsider
I'm not only considering the response of the nightblade with respect to counters, in fact that was exactly my point. The player interaction directly influences the concept of what is considered a hard counter, and as I said in my last post, you can't just declare a counter infallible without considering the players on either end. Hense my original point which is that a counter isn't a dedicated I win button, it is just a means to keep up with the opponent. The problem with cloak spam is that it allows the nightblade to expend the resources of their opponent indefinitely to keep , at a significantly higher cost.
Yes the user is moving toward the nightblade, but that doesn't mean nightblades are incapable of evading a potion. Evade the potion > cloak functions.
Lastly I'd like to return to an important point which has also been made which is to remind nightblades that they not only have cloak but some of the best mobility skills and CC in the game.
Ahem. Stay close to the NB > Cloak functions. For some reason you're giving the hypothetical NB the advantage of being the better player. NB has tools to escape, Opponent has tools to pursue. At this point, we are just arguing technicalities, and we clearly have different understandings of the term "hard counter." We're actually saying very close to the same things, but stressing different sides!
When you successfully use an ability or item against another player, and your skill nullifies the effect of your opponent's skill, the first skill or item is a hard counter. Whether the opponent then responds in any other means (running away, casting more abilities, ect.) is irrelevant.
I only meant to point out that many of the thingsnot only help in combating cloak, they dispel it. It's the difference between a gap closer's effect on a shield, and Shield Breaker on a shield.
Edited by kadar on October 11, 2015 2:42AM0 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't care how much a Nightblade cloaks, but there's two situations that really peeve me off
1. We're in a 1v1, they get to 20% health, cloak and I never see them again when I'm trying to finish my NB bounty quest. I HATE THIS. Die with some god damn dignity, and feed me ap. You're being selfish.
2. I'm a S+B DK. I have DoTs. They are are totally nulled by the fact a NB can just cloak it off in half a second. This means, the DoT is gone, and they can stealth around me until they've recovered. It also means my primary damage is going to come from a 1h sword. gg
Other than that, I don't care.2 -
revonine✭✭✭✭
Stamina nightblades were never the specific problem being addressed. The problem being addressed was the nb capacity to spam cloak indefinitely as a means to avoid damage and the capacity to use mobs as an instant escape. Also a significantly greater proportion of most leaderboards are now nightblades.
@The_Outsider
I'm not only considering the response of the nightblade with respect to counters, in fact that was exactly my point. The player interaction directly influences the concept of what is considered a hard counter, and as I said in my last post, you can't just declare a counter infallible without considering the players on either end. Hense my original point which is that a counter isn't a dedicated I win button, it is just a means to keep up with the opponent. The problem with cloak spam is that it allows the nightblade to expend the resources of their opponent indefinitely to keep , at a significantly higher cost.
Yes the user is moving toward the nightblade, but that doesn't mean nightblades are incapable of evading a potion. Evade the potion > cloak functions.
Lastly I'd like to return to an important point which has also been made which is to remind nightblades that they not only have cloak but some of the best mobility skills and CC in the game.
The capacity to cloak past mobs is only an issue in one DLC. DLC that will become obsolete in the near future if they keep releasing content quarterly. You can't justify potentially harming a class for all future content based on this.
Speaking of harming a class. A NB cannot go toe to toe with another class without cloak magicka NB's especially are extraordinarily squishy great mobility or not. A light armour sorcerer has a class shield, a light armour templar has the heals. Great mobility is countered easily because CC exists.
Stamina Nightblades only have access to rally if they are using 2-handed and Vigor. If your Bow and dual wielding you only have access to two HOTs Vigor and Blood Craze. HOT's do not keep you alive in toe to toe combat against a competent opponent.
If cloak is nerfed the entire class will have to be assessed. If it isn't NB's will the the worst class in PvP for survivability by a large margin. Unless everyone starts running Sword and Board or something. Which I think some people want to see because it's Nightblade bashing season.Edited by revonine on October 11, 2015 3:45AM1 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »
Ahem. Stay close to the NB > Cloak functions. For some reason you're giving the hypothetical NB the advantage of being the better player. NB has tools to escape, Opponent has tools to pursue. At this point, we are just arguing technicalities, and we clearly have different understandings of the term "hard counter." We're actually saying very close to the same things, but stressing different sides!
When you successfully use an ability or item against another player, and your skill nullifies the effect of your opponent's skill, the first skill or item is a hard counter. Whether the opponent then responds in any other means (running away, casting more abilities, ect.) is irrelevant.
I only meant to point out that many of the thingsnot only help in combating cloak, they dispel it. It's the difference between a gap closer's effect on a shield, and Shield Breaker on a shield.
Yes and my point is that you have to drop a counter successfully. Meaning whether or not its effect negates another ability is contingent on its circumstantial effectiveness. Not just whether or not it is used. Its not just an I win button.
For example, magelight is a great cloak counter. If your target stays completely still and you happen to bump into them in stealth. Suddenly, not so great. Caltrops is great at breaking stealth, unfortunately a nightblade can roll, teleport, or run out of them. Suddenly, not so great.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
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The capacity to cloak past mobs is only an issue in one DLC. DLC that will become obsolete in the near future if they keep releasing content quarterly. You can't justify potentially harming a class for all future content based on this.
Speaking of harming a class. A NB cannot go toe to toe with another class without cloak magicka NB's especially are extraordinarily squishy great mobility or not. A light armour sorcerer has a class shield, a light armour templar has the heals. Great mobility is countered easily because CC exists.
Stamina Nightblades only have access to rally if they are using 2-handed and Vigor. If your Bow and dual wielding you only have access to two HOTs Vigor and Blood Craze. HOT's do not keep you alive in toe to toe combat against a competent opponent.
If cloak is nerfed the entire class will have to be assessed. If it isn't NB's will the the worst class in PvP for survivability by a large margin. Unless everyone starts running Sword and Board or something. Which I think some people want to see because it's Nightblade bashing season.
This guy responded to you so I dont have to:
Like fear moving a target away and then snaring them, or cripple giving the nb a speed buff and snaring their target, or the shade to teleport to when away from the detector.
And also the problem is not just in the DLC it affect cyrodiil as well.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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revonine✭✭✭✭
This guy responded to you so I dont have to:
And also the problem is not just in the DLC it affect cyrodiil as well.
Cloak wasn't an issue before IC. Suddenly after IC release they're was uproar. This thread that we're debating on so heavily wasn't started before IC.
Yanno what. Cloak is a mobility tool. This meta currently mobility is king. The problem is the meta. Not individual classes or skills.1 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Your last I totally agree with.^
I mostly continue to argue, because I enjoy it. Haha. Guilty.
If we're talking ability vs. ability, Cloak loses every time. There's just simply a lot of counters slotted on too many bars.
But now, if we're talking about Cloak, used in conjunction with a bunch of other tactics like dodge roll, shuffle/double take, speed while invisible (if Magicka), vigor, resto staff, ect. That makes for a mighty evasive NB. Because you're right, in the right scenario, a NB can get out of caltrops.
Maybe if ZOS believed in balance tweaks, we should be talking about balancing individual skills. But they don't, and have said as much.
So instead we endure imbalance and hope that ZOS finally gets around to fixing the underlying issues plauguing pvp.0 -
Docmandu✭✭✭✭✭
✭Played BWB again yesterday, first time since release of IC, as Vet PvP on EU is a *** of zerg balls and super lag. It was quite refreshing being able to cast skills, but also apparent how super easy mode NBs are in BWB.
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Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
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Cloak wasn't an issue before IC. Suddenly after IC release they're was uproar. This thread that we're debating on so heavily wasn't started before IC.
Yanno what. Cloak is a mobility tool. This meta currently mobility is king. The problem is the meta. Not individual classes or skills.
Cloak wasn't an issue before because the prepatch meta was instant kill.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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Domander✭✭✭✭✭
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Cloak wasn't an issue before because the prepatch meta was instant kill.
And the ability was broken by gap closers/ anything that wasn't a projectile, and you could have near 100% detect uptime. While detected, cloak is already nerfed compared to 1.6 because in 1.6 projectiles would still miss even if you could be seen.Edited by Domander on October 11, 2015 9:22PM1 -
revonine✭✭✭✭
And the ability was broken by gap closers/ anything that wasn't a projectile, and you could have near 100% detect uptime. While detected, cloak is already nerfed compared to 1.6 because in 1.6 projectiles would still miss even if you could be seen.
It's funny because now that cloak has been fixed to apparently how it's been intended to function people suddenly have a problem with it. They had no problem letting this one slide when it didn't work half the time and was completely unreliable. It still kinda is as you can't pull a Houdini with it an instantly escape versus even 2 competent players using the tools available to them.Edited by revonine on October 11, 2015 10:05PM1 -
Riggsy✭✭✭✭Being a nightblade is playing on easy mode, if you nerf cloak they might actually have to try.MMAGA - We Made Medium Armor Great AgainEvasion: Casting this ability and its morphs now requires that you wear 5 pieces of Medium Armor.
Woe Biden - Mule
Donald Thump - Mule
M'aiq Pence - Mule0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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That's what the armor passives are for.....
Clueless. It´s not like there is not a spellresist passive - so i guess remove all the magic and elemental / dot passives?
YAY i´m all for that.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
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Knootewoot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Being a nightblade is playing on easy mode, if you nerf cloak they might actually have to try.
Have you tried one? Please make a magicka NB and see how well you fare in PvP. Less damage then stamina counterpart and more squishy due to mostly light armor users. Cloak nerfed would not make much difference since not everybody spams it (except if it fails all the time) but it would hurt some magblade builds.
Lately I hope they nerf it. Then, when people are done with their sorcs and DK's and stamblades, will want to try something else. And when they try magblade they will cry for cloak to be better. And I will laugh while I play CU٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
"I am a nightblade. Blending the disciplines of the stealthy agent and subtle wizard, I move unseen and undetected, foil locks and traps, and teleport to safety when threatened, or strike like a viper from ambush. The College of Illusion hides me and fuddles or pacifies my opponents. The College of Mysticism detects my object, reflects and dispels enemy spells, and makes good my escape. The key to a nightblade's success is avoidance, by spell or by stealth; with these skills, all things are possible."0
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