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Cloak Needs A Nerf
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Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »^Except that purely speaking of the Cloak skill, it does have a bunch of "I win" buttons. They could also be called "hard counters" in the sense that they completely nullify the skill.
Yesterday in IC sewer zone chat, I made the statement: Detect pot > NB. Immediately, no fewer than 3 other players type back, "ya, except detect pots don't work when they cloak." And: "no, only AOE will pull them out of cloak."
We then had a really informative discussion about how to shut down Cloak. It is this kind of confusion and misinformation that facilitate the belief in the Cloak spamming Demi-gods of legend.
Many times, upon being countered, a NB loses all advantage and progress it's made (with it's OP cloak, I mean) by being slammed with every ability on my bar while it tries to figure out why I am still hitting it.
Cloak is strong. Whatever happens with the (sort of) promised nerf, let's keep it that way. Cause who likes watered-down skills (*cough* dragonblood*cough*).
@The_Outsider except that if you really think about it, there is no true hard counter to any ability. An easy example is the cloak potion dilemma. A good nightblade can anicipate potions, move out of range, cloak spam through mobs and achieve safety.
Because nightblades have this magical ability to know when players are going to use detect potions.
You are really trying hard.Edited by Domander on October 5, 2015 5:05AM4 -
AllPlayAndNoWork✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.
Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.
Way to go and cave in to the inept players out there.......... This game is becoming a nerf paradise for the players who cant play PvP.
1 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.
Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.
Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.
And even though we don't know each other, we have fought many times and Ali Sabre is an honest to goodness great NB.
Lol. Curse is laughable? How many times do you cast curse then burst down a Nb trying to escape using cloak. Seems like everyone has forgotten that cloak is our only survival skill. Let's see. NB has no instant class heal, no class shield, and one of the most counter prone survival skills and now the devs are considering a nerf. cloak is not OP because as a magicka NB I have to end up spamming it just to survive. Stamina NB don't even have that luxury of trying to spam it.
Sorcs have no instant class heal, no cloak and yet a set was implemented to hardcounter their defensive skill while at the same time nerfing it. (Not to mention the set does a lot more than that...)
Do you think stamina Sorcs could spam Bolt Escape or make a lot of use out of their Ward? Just because someone doesn't use a skill to it's full potential, doesn't mean the skill is not too strong.
Why should it be a sign for a skill to not be OP when you are spamming it to survive? Do you think Shieldspamming is fine and proof that shields are balanced, too?
I think those are pretty good points @ToRelax
I really don't wanna compare Cloak to other skills, but since we all are already, I think the difference would be Effective Cloak counters vs. Effective Shield counters. Looking at it that way, it's easy to see why ZOS thought Shield Breaker was a good idea, imo.
Yeah, I know, and I don't have anything against a counter to shields. But it's just different from the counters to Cloak. Detect pots would give you a 20m radius and every enemy in that area will be made visible and unable to dodge with Cloak. That is 1/3 of the time at best (well, 1/2 actually if you are using cdr glyphs
). I do think you should see when you are detected by a potion and it should only work for the user, too, though.
Ranged weapon normal attacks go over 28m if I am not mistaken, and the set works all the time. It also doesn't make shields just a magicka waste, they can kill yourself or allies, too. It turns all mitigation useless until you get rid of shields, making it a counter to high resistances, blocking, Mistform as well. It works on shields that do not affect the enemy's attacks anyway and it even works with Fossilize, wich is just a joke.
But enough of this, shields needed a counter, but in the form to make a fight worth it please.
In my other comment I was more pointing out that shields and especially Hardened Ward were reduced at the same time as they implemented a counter to them, since the user I quoted made a point they shouldn't nerf Cloak because it already has counters.Edited by ToRelax on October 5, 2015 6:11AMDAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU2 -
Xeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭I rolled a MageBlade just because Cloak is so OP. I mean it is stupid ridiculous OP. I can perma cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other, all while traveling at the speed of light with my magicka bar at 100%. I can troll groups for days even if they have AOE, Magelight, Flare, Pots etc, simply because I am so ****ing fast while cloaked. You might see me for a second, but once I hit that double take combined with cloak speed bonus from CW, I am the fastest class in the game AND I'm ****ing invisible. Lol. I dont even use a horse. Seriously.
Anyone defending cloak needs to have their head checked. Cloak is ****ing absurd.5 -
Getting tired of this...In the sewers with quite a number of stones, when I get ganked by a NB (of course). The good news is I can deal with them pretty easily in combat, but when they cloak I can't ever find them. Most of the time, I'll use a detect potion, but those will only work for so long and after that the NB is long gone. I check everywhere after he cloaks with lightning flood, boundless storm, streak, and everything else others have mentioned. I usually go back to my business then get ganked again by the same NB till one time he finds me low on health and kills me. I understand NBs need some form of survivability, but this is something else. I just can't find a counter for it unless I curse, but that freaking NB just cloaks again unless I spam that curse button and luckily hit him.0
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Araxleon✭✭✭✭✭I rolled a MageBlade just because Cloak is so OP. I mean it is stupid ridiculous OP. I can perma cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other, all while traveling at the speed of light with my magicka bar at 100%. I can troll groups for days even if they have AOE, Magelight, Flare, Pots etc, simply because I am so ****ing fast while cloaked. You might see me for a second, but once I hit that double take combined with cloak speed bonus from CW, I am the fastest class in the game AND I'm ****ing invisible. Lol. I dont even use a horse. Seriously.
Anyone defending cloak needs to have their head checked. Cloak is ****ing absurd.
sigh, cookie cutter sorc builds wont counter it soo easily
act of rage gives me a run for my money1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.
Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.
Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.
And even though we don't know each other, we have fought many times and Ali Sabre is an honest to goodness great NB.
Lol. Curse is laughable? How many times do you cast curse then burst down a Nb trying to escape using cloak. Seems like everyone has forgotten that cloak is our only survival skill. Let's see. NB has no instant class heal, no class shield, and one of the most counter prone survival skills and now the devs are considering a nerf. cloak is not OP because as a magicka NB I have to end up spamming it just to survive. Stamina NB don't even have that luxury of trying to spam it.
Sorcs have no instant class heal, no cloak and yet a set was implemented to hardcounter their defensive skill while at the same time nerfing it. (Not to mention the set does a lot more than that...)
Do you think stamina Sorcs could spam Bolt Escape or make a lot of use out of their Ward? Just because someone doesn't use a skill to it's full potential, doesn't mean the skill is not too strong.
Why should it be a sign for a skill to not be OP when you are spamming it to survive? Do you think Shieldspamming is fine and proof that shields are balanced, too?
I think those are pretty good points @ToRelax
I really don't wanna compare Cloak to other skills, but since we all are already, I think the difference would be Effective Cloak counters vs. Effective Shield counters. Looking at it that way, it's easy to see why ZOS thought Shield Breaker was a good idea, imo.
Well i´ve yet to see those effective cloak counters available to magica builds. Considering IC is a terrain where you have to fight too (and it´s less likely to get away from a nb there than it is elsewhere) every aoe can no longer be considered a counter to cloak. You´re aggroing NPCs while the NB is able to ignore them.
When AOE is partially ruled out you´re left with: Magelight (which is needed for pve so you might not even have access to the morph needed) and potions.
It´s like all the sorcs telling you there were counters to bolt escape and it´s equally true. They´re maybe hard or impossible to utilize but hey that´s tough luck bro.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
_Proteus_✭✭Anyone having trouble with cloak as a stam build simply has to put caltrops over an area. Anyone running a magicka build can gap close and aoe repeatedly on a cloak spammer (spam gap close and aoe in that order in a 0, 1, 0, 1 pattern). A stam build can also do this if they don't want to use caltrops (which is a great skill anyway). If you are still unwilling to do all of this, just equip a detect pot and use it after the nightblade has engaged you.
Oh and seeing sorcs complain about NBs reminds me of launch. Sorcs with endless bolt complaining about DKs, and eventually DKs were finally nerfed to the ground in 1.6 (in terms of 1 vs X), while Sorcs stayed as the top classes in game. Now it's the NBs. I don't know about you, but it does sound like a clever diversionary strategy to me.2 -
OGLezard✭✭✭✭✭
✭Detect Potions, Radiant Magelight, Any form of AoE, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, Piercing Mark, NPCs, Roaming Bosses, Charge Attacks. It's your fault for not using the counters available, don't come to the forums and complain about an issue that only affects lazy individuals.
steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado, oh crap they got away, teleport strike, steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado......
seems pretty lazy to me.......0 -
OGLezard✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.
Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.
Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.
And even though we don't know each other, we have fought many times and Ali Sabre is an honest to goodness great NB.
Lol. Curse is laughable? How many times do you cast curse then burst down a Nb trying to escape using cloak. Seems like everyone has forgotten that cloak is our only survival skill. Let's see. NB has no instant class heal, no class shield, and one of the most counter prone survival skills and now the devs are considering a nerf. cloak is not OP because as a magicka NB I have to end up spamming it just to survive. Stamina NB don't even have that luxury of trying to spam it.
Sorcs have no instant class heal, no cloak and yet a set was implemented to hardcounter their defensive skill while at the same time nerfing it. (Not to mention the set does a lot more than that...)
Do you think stamina Sorcs could spam Bolt Escape or make a lot of use out of their Ward? Just because someone doesn't use a skill to it's full potential, doesn't mean the skill is not too strong.
Why should it be a sign for a skill to not be OP when you are spamming it to survive? Do you think Shieldspamming is fine and proof that shields are balanced, too?
I think those are pretty good points @ToRelax
I really don't wanna compare Cloak to other skills, but since we all are already, I think the difference would be Effective Cloak counters vs. Effective Shield counters. Looking at it that way, it's easy to see why ZOS thought Shield Breaker was a good idea, imo.
Yeah, I know, and I don't have anything against a counter to shields. But it's just different from the counters to Cloak. Detect pots would give you a 20m radius and every enemy in that area will be made visible and unable to dodge with Cloak. That is 1/3 of the time at best (well, 1/2 actually if you are using cdr glyphs). I do think you should see when you are detected by a potion and it should only work for the user, too, though.
Ranged weapon normal attacks go over 28m if I am not mistaken, and the set works all the time. It also doesn't make shields just a magicka waste, they can kill yourself or allies, too. It turns all mitigation useless until you get rid of shields, making it a counter to high resistances, blocking, Mistform as well. It works on shields that do not affect the enemy's attacks anyway and it even works with Fossilize, wich is just a joke.
But enough of this, shields needed a counter, but in the form to make a fight worth it please.
In my other comment I was more pointing out that shields and especially Hardened Ward were reduced at the same time as they implemented a counter to them, since the user I quoted made a point they shouldn't nerf Cloak because it already has counters.
@ToRelax you are aware there is a set that hard counters cloak/invis right? Increases damage done to sneaking targets by 50% and increases detect radius by like 25 yards maybe more....dont remember
EDIT: 20% damage increase according to this link
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sentry+SetEdited by OGLezard on October 5, 2015 2:43PM0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.
Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.
Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.
And even though we don't know each other, we have fought many times and Ali Sabre is an honest to goodness great NB.
Lol. Curse is laughable? How many times do you cast curse then burst down a Nb trying to escape using cloak. Seems like everyone has forgotten that cloak is our only survival skill. Let's see. NB has no instant class heal, no class shield, and one of the most counter prone survival skills and now the devs are considering a nerf. cloak is not OP because as a magicka NB I have to end up spamming it just to survive. Stamina NB don't even have that luxury of trying to spam it.
Sorcs have no instant class heal, no cloak and yet a set was implemented to hardcounter their defensive skill while at the same time nerfing it. (Not to mention the set does a lot more than that...)
Do you think stamina Sorcs could spam Bolt Escape or make a lot of use out of their Ward? Just because someone doesn't use a skill to it's full potential, doesn't mean the skill is not too strong.
Why should it be a sign for a skill to not be OP when you are spamming it to survive? Do you think Shieldspamming is fine and proof that shields are balanced, too?
I think those are pretty good points @ToRelax
I really don't wanna compare Cloak to other skills, but since we all are already, I think the difference would be Effective Cloak counters vs. Effective Shield counters. Looking at it that way, it's easy to see why ZOS thought Shield Breaker was a good idea, imo.
Yeah, I know, and I don't have anything against a counter to shields. But it's just different from the counters to Cloak. Detect pots would give you a 20m radius and every enemy in that area will be made visible and unable to dodge with Cloak. That is 1/3 of the time at best (well, 1/2 actually if you are using cdr glyphs). I do think you should see when you are detected by a potion and it should only work for the user, too, though.
Ranged weapon normal attacks go over 28m if I am not mistaken, and the set works all the time. It also doesn't make shields just a magicka waste, they can kill yourself or allies, too. It turns all mitigation useless until you get rid of shields, making it a counter to high resistances, blocking, Mistform as well. It works on shields that do not affect the enemy's attacks anyway and it even works with Fossilize, wich is just a joke.
But enough of this, shields needed a counter, but in the form to make a fight worth it please.
In my other comment I was more pointing out that shields and especially Hardened Ward were reduced at the same time as they implemented a counter to them, since the user I quoted made a point they shouldn't nerf Cloak because it already has counters.
@ToRelax you are aware there is a set that hard counters cloak/invis right? Increases damage done to sneaking targets by 50% and increases detect radius by like 25 yards maybe more....dont remember
EDIT: 20% damage increase according to this link
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sentry+Set
Just no?
Edit: So you already found it. Well yeah, 25 yards is a bit more than 50% detectionr radius, and this does not reveal invisible enemies frmo my understanding.Edited by ToRelax on October 5, 2015 2:47PMDAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
TheNephilimCrow✭✭✭Just want to say, people who heavily rely on cloak and think the class would be broken without it, or that nightblades only have cloak to survive, or that they need compensation for it being nerfed, have you looked out from under your cloak recently and seen how many skills the class has? Cloak is only one skill, you have others that allow you to do things no other class can, please look at them for a bit before saying the class would be ruined with a change to cloak.
Out of all the classes in game (with perhaps the exception of the rarely looked at templars) NB's have received many buffs and bug fixes and very few nerfs (of which many of these nerfs were blanket ones that hit all classes, not just NB's).
You are right... in the fact that we have more then one skill. But good combinations rely on stealth.
Am I right to assume that you are wanting to deny us the right to use the best combos for our class, when I'm sure you are using an OP combo for yours?
Taking away cloak from a NB or even nerfing it as hard as everyone is wanting will kill 75% of the builds the class has. Not to mention that NB's are squishy and have hardly any self heals to match other class. Such as Rushed Ceremony, Dark Exchange or even Dragons Blood. I go back to what I originally said in my own post. If you want the skill nerfed or gone, then give us means to heal ourselves just like other classes.
Before you even say it, Funnel Health (morph) doesn't even come close in the way other classes can heal.
For example, sorce can get Health and Stam/Mag from Dark Exchange or Dark Conversion and you say NB is broken because we can hide? Ridiculous.
Edit: Also, I'm talking about Class Skills, not weapon heals like Rally.Edited by TheNephilimCrow on October 5, 2015 3:01PMPSN, Youtube & Twitch: TheNephilimCrow
[NA] ESO EP Guild (GM): The Order of Crows (PvE) - 300+ Members (Discontinued)
[NA] ESO AD Guild (GM): The Blades of Ayrenn (PvP) - 45 Members (Actively Recruiting)|:Veteran Rank:|
VR16 - AD Breton - S&S/Bow Werewolf Stamina Nightblade - Title "Savage Shadow"
VR 1 - AD Altmer - DW/Resto Magicka Sorcerer - Title "Spellsword"
|:Non-Veteran:|
LVL 45 - DC Bosmer - Jack of Trades (Master Provisioning, Blacksmithing, etc.)
Lvl 22 - AD Breton - Templar - Hybrid Build - PvE - Title "The Holy Knight"
LVL 21 - AD Imperial - Dragonknight - Tank Build (In Progress)- Title "The Copper Knight"
Lvl 13 - AD Khajit - DW Magicka Nightblade - Title "Mystical Thief"0 -
ScruffyWhiskers✭✭✭✭✭Detect Potions, Radiant Magelight, Any form of AoE, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, Piercing Mark, NPCs, Roaming Bosses, Charge Attacks. It's your fault for not using the counters available, don't come to the forums and complain about an issue that only affects lazy individuals.
steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado, oh crap they got away, teleport strike, steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado......
seems pretty lazy to me.......
Hehe. Yeah Yonkit's steel tornado and caltrops build is a real PITA for a cloaker. I don't even try anymore. Taking it on is about as productive as fighting Erkon 1 v 1 after chasing him across the map. You just learn not to grab a tiger by the tail.
But he is correct. So many players don't even bother with the counters. Usually the new players in small groups. I can kill 2 or 3 man teams in 30 seconds if they don't have a detect potion. Pop the potion or have a competent player in the group and I am toast. I really hate to say this because it has become so trite and over used but there really is a "lack of game mechanics awareness" dynamic going on here a.k.a. L2P
0 -
revonine✭✭✭✭ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »Detect Potions, Radiant Magelight, Any form of AoE, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, Piercing Mark, NPCs, Roaming Bosses, Charge Attacks. It's your fault for not using the counters available, don't come to the forums and complain about an issue that only affects lazy individuals.
steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado, oh crap they got away, teleport strike, steel tornado steel tornado steel tornado......
seems pretty lazy to me.......
Hehe. Yeah Yonkit's steel tornado and caltrops build is a real PITA for a cloaker. I don't even try anymore. Taking it on is about as productive as fighting Erkon 1 v 1 after chasing him across the map. You just learn not to grab a tiger by the tail.
But he is correct. So many players don't even bother with the counters. Usually the new players in small groups. I can kill 2 or 3 man teams in 30 seconds if they don't have a detect potion. Pop the potion or have a competent player in the group and I am toast. I really hate to say this because it has become so trite and over used but there really is a "lack of game mechanics awareness" dynamic going on here a.k.a. L2P
And it's those new players in those groups that will come to the forums to complain and start a new nerf train.2 -
TheNephilimCrow✭✭✭joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.
Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.
Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.
And even though we don't know each other, we have fought many times and Ali Sabre is an honest to goodness great NB.
Lol. Curse is laughable? How many times do you cast curse then burst down a Nb trying to escape using cloak. Seems like everyone has forgotten that cloak is our only survival skill. Let's see. NB has no instant class heal, no class shield, and one of the most counter prone survival skills and now the devs are considering a nerf. cloak is not OP because as a magicka NB I have to end up spamming it just to survive. Stamina NB don't even have that luxury of trying to spam it.
Sorcs have no instant class heal, no cloak and yet a set was implemented to hardcounter their defensive skill while at the same time nerfing it. (Not to mention the set does a lot more than that...)
Do you think stamina Sorcs could spam Bolt Escape or make a lot of use out of their Ward? Just because someone doesn't use a skill to it's full potential, doesn't mean the skill is not too strong.
Why should it be a sign for a skill to not be OP when you are spamming it to survive? Do you think Shieldspamming is fine and proof that shields are balanced, too?
Sorcs do have a better class heal then NBs. It's called Dark Exchange. It gives Health and Magicka or Health and Stamina at the cost of either Magicka or Stamina. So, theres that.
While it may not be an instant heal like a Templar, neither is Dragon's blood. It's still a damn sight better then what any NB can do with class skills.
And, no, I wouldn't think a Stam build Sorc could spam Bolt Escape, but neither could a Stam Build Nightblade. Unless they have something that lowers the cost of magicka, it's 3k a cast. So its not like I can continuously spam it forever and never come out of it.
Edit: And I know that Bolt Escape increases with each use.Edited by TheNephilimCrow on October 5, 2015 3:18PMPSN, Youtube & Twitch: TheNephilimCrow
[NA] ESO EP Guild (GM): The Order of Crows (PvE) - 300+ Members (Discontinued)
[NA] ESO AD Guild (GM): The Blades of Ayrenn (PvP) - 45 Members (Actively Recruiting)|:Veteran Rank:|
VR16 - AD Breton - S&S/Bow Werewolf Stamina Nightblade - Title "Savage Shadow"
VR 1 - AD Altmer - DW/Resto Magicka Sorcerer - Title "Spellsword"
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LVL 45 - DC Bosmer - Jack of Trades (Master Provisioning, Blacksmithing, etc.)
Lvl 22 - AD Breton - Templar - Hybrid Build - PvE - Title "The Holy Knight"
LVL 21 - AD Imperial - Dragonknight - Tank Build (In Progress)- Title "The Copper Knight"
Lvl 13 - AD Khajit - DW Magicka Nightblade - Title "Mystical Thief"0 -
Xeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheNephilimCrow wrote: »joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.
Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.
Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.
And even though we don't know each other, we have fought many times and Ali Sabre is an honest to goodness great NB.
Lol. Curse is laughable? How many times do you cast curse then burst down a Nb trying to escape using cloak. Seems like everyone has forgotten that cloak is our only survival skill. Let's see. NB has no instant class heal, no class shield, and one of the most counter prone survival skills and now the devs are considering a nerf. cloak is not OP because as a magicka NB I have to end up spamming it just to survive. Stamina NB don't even have that luxury of trying to spam it.
Sorcs have no instant class heal, no cloak and yet a set was implemented to hardcounter their defensive skill while at the same time nerfing it. (Not to mention the set does a lot more than that...)
Do you think stamina Sorcs could spam Bolt Escape or make a lot of use out of their Ward? Just because someone doesn't use a skill to it's full potential, doesn't mean the skill is not too strong.
Why should it be a sign for a skill to not be OP when you are spamming it to survive? Do you think Shieldspamming is fine and proof that shields are balanced, too?
Sorcs do have a better class heal then NBs. It's called Dark Exchange. It gives Health and Magicka or Health and Stamina at the cost of either Magicka or Stamina. So, theres that.
While it may not be an instant heal like a Templar, neither is Dragon's blood. It's still a damn sight better then what any NB can do with class skills.
They do not. Swallow Soul hits like a truck (way harder than Crushing Shock) AND heals. You can keep any class on the defensive simply by weaving this in their face combined with fear every 8 seconds. It's like Sorc, but easy mode. NB don't even have to jack with elemental CP or max magicka, they just go full Magic Damage/Spell Power and profit.
I'm really sick of listening to NB QQ. I destroy v16s on my v2 NB all night long. It's an extremely strong class with solid abilities and passives.
Edited by Xeven on October 5, 2015 3:24PM3 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TheNephilimCrow wrote: »Just want to say, people who heavily rely on cloak and think the class would be broken without it, or that nightblades only have cloak to survive, or that they need compensation for it being nerfed, have you looked out from under your cloak recently and seen how many skills the class has? Cloak is only one skill, you have others that allow you to do things no other class can, please look at them for a bit before saying the class would be ruined with a change to cloak.
Out of all the classes in game (with perhaps the exception of the rarely looked at templars) NB's have received many buffs and bug fixes and very few nerfs (of which many of these nerfs were blanket ones that hit all classes, not just NB's).
You are right... in the fact that we have more then one skill. But good combinations rely on stealth.
Am I right to assume that you are wanting to deny us the right to use the best combos for our class, when I'm sure you are using an OP combo for yours?
Taking away cloak from a NB or even nerfing it as hard as everyone is wanting will kill 75% of the builds the class has. Not to mention that NB's are squishy and have hardly any self heals to match other class. Such as Rushed Ceremony, Dark Exchange or even Dragons Blood. I go back to what I originally said in my own post. If you want the skill nerfed or gone, then give us means to heal ourselves just like other classes.
Before you even say it, Funnel Health (morph) doesn't even come close in the way other classes can heal.
For example, sorce can get Health and Stam/Mag from Dark Exchange or Dark Conversion and you say NB is broken because we can hide? Ridiculous.
Edit: Also, I'm talking about Class Skills, not weapon heals like Rally.
Bolt has been nerfed several times yet people still feel it is overpowered despite the fact that many sorc builds can't easily use it without destroying their magicka reserves. Dark Exchange is a slow and in Cyrodiil, rather laughable heal that has both the cast time but also this awkward delay on it, I wouldn't even try calling it a decent self heal.
Nightblades have several hots, two strong burst heals that require killing the target (which works for them given their burst damage capabilities) and can again do many things other classes can't. NB's can take a nerf, not because I like the idea of ZOS continuing to go against what they've said to the community but because the class can take it.
Its irritating that it feels that around half the enemies I fight always cloak away, the best class to counter them is another nb, and that they keep saying that cloak is the only thing they have. Against a good nb most counters are weak, and if the nb knows what they are doing fighting them is a royal pain.
I like the fact that nb's have class defining skills that a vast majority of their builds can use, but with the state of most every other classes build having their defenses nerfed, and their class defining skills restricted, NB's stand out as the only one graced by ZOS not to face the nerf hammer, and I am just amused by how much they are shouting to not be nerfed.0 -
revonine✭✭✭✭I've re-rolled to stamblade in prep for these nerfs since we don't rely that much on cloak anyway. Why fight it the so called vocal minority always wins anyway. I'm calling it now.0
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ScruffyWhiskers✭✭✭✭✭They do not. Swallow Soul hits like a truck (way harder than Crushing Shock) AND heals. You can keep any class on the defensive simply by weaving this in their face combined with fear every 8 seconds. It's like Sorc, but easy mode. NB don't even have to jack with elemental CP or max magicka, they just go full Magic Damage/Spell Power and profit.
I'm really sick of listening to NB QQ. I destroy v16s on my v2 NB all night long. It's an extremely strong class with solid abilities and passives.
How many times have you hit a shield with swallow soul and gotten zilch? How many times have you had the target dodge it? It's not really a reliable heal. You would be better off with mutagen running from your restro stick.
Nobody is saying that NB is a gimp class. When the game first launched though it was horrible. Most of the abilities did not work. That's not an exaggeration. DK's were god kings back then so things have changed.
There are also a lot of really bad NB's playing as well. My most killed class according to Kill Count is NB. I would much rather fight a NB than any other class. The one class I hate fighting is Templar right now. The only thing more un-fun than a normal skilled Templar is a high skilled Sorc.
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ThePonzzz✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cloak just isn't that powerful. The duration is too short to be used more than a handful of times by stamina DPS builds. If you're a siphoning nightblade you can maybe pull off about 7 or 8, but at the cost of your offensive power. I was a magicka build prior to update 7, and I'd hardly call it powerful. As a stamina build, I get to maybe toss out 2 or 3 casts and it's *rare* to get away from anyone but newbs.0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Dark Exchange as main heal, suggested by a NB.
You know, Strife alone will give you higher hps than that and Siphoning Attacks is far better to restore resources, it even restores both stamina and magicka.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dark Exchange as main heal, suggested by a NB.
You know, Strife alone will give you higher hps than that and Siphoning Attacks is far better to restore resources, it even restores both stamina and magicka.
Well yep. That settles basically the whole argument. It´s a comment of such boundless ignorance and simplemindedness this will someday come to haunt NBs back when they get an ability reworked to have a classheal that will be equally good as dark exchange (in exchange for funnel and sap heal).<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nightblades counter cloak with Mark. Any stamina build counters cloak with caltrops. So Magicka Sorcs, Magicka Templars, and Magicka DragonKnights are left with (only) any form of AOE, Detect pots, Radiant Magelight, Gap closers, Streak, ect...
Since there are a metric butt ton of NBs around these days, and Stamina builds account for a huge percent of players out there, we are left with a, by comparison, small minority of players who don't have a super easy mode face roll counter to cloak. And then there's the reality that 90% of the time you're in group with either a NB or Stamina build. Oh and there's also like other stuff that works on cloak...0 -
kendellking_chaosb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »This is one of the skills that is pushing nightblades in to the overpowered territory. The skill needs to stay spammable for its after effects like 100% crit or DOT removal, but the duration of invisibility should be treated like bolt escape and last 33%-50% less time each time its cast. You should not be able to stay invisible continuously for longer than 7-10 seconds, which is already a long time.
First cloak: duration is 100% 3.5 seconds
Second Cloak: is 2.3 seconds
Third Cloak: is 1.5 seconds
Fourth Cloak: is 1 second
Fifth Cloak: is .6 seconds
Sixth Cloak: is .4 seconds
Seventh Cloak: is .3 seconds
Eight Cloak: is .2 seconds
Ninth Cloak: is .1 seconds
Something like this would allow people to only be invisible for about 7-10 seconds max if they spam cloak. The timer should be similar to roll dodge and bolt escape.
I'm I the only with a max level 2.9 seconds cloak where is this 3.5 coming fromChaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master
For the King of Argonia
May Sithis hold back his Void0 -
kendellking_chaosb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »This is one of the skills that is pushing nightblades in to the overpowered territory. The skill needs to stay spammable for its after effects like 100% crit or DOT removal, but the duration of invisibility should be treated like bolt escape and last 33%-50% less time each time its cast. You should not be able to stay invisible continuously for longer than 7-10 seconds, which is already a long time.
First cloak: duration is 100% 3.5 seconds
Second Cloak: is 2.3 seconds
Third Cloak: is 1.5 seconds
Fourth Cloak: is 1 second
Fifth Cloak: is .6 seconds
Sixth Cloak: is .4 seconds
Seventh Cloak: is .3 seconds
Eight Cloak: is .2 seconds
Ninth Cloak: is .1 seconds
Something like this would allow people to only be invisible for about 7-10 seconds max if they spam cloak. The timer should be similar to roll dodge and bolt escape.
I'm I the only with a max level 2.9 seconds cloak where is this 3.5 coming from also enough powers to counter it's the most countered powerChaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master
For the King of Argonia
May Sithis hold back his Void0 -
Lettigall✭✭✭✭✭
✭You can stop now, NBs won the Great Cloak war, nothing will change in next big update...
Some men just want to watch the world burn... I just want a cold beer!1 -
Duukar✭✭✭✭✭Cloak is fine. Its impossible to escape from a good player. You have no choice but to fight. Why on earth would you change it except to make it more powerful!?
This game continues to try to reward mediocrity. Why on earth can I not cloak away at all from a good player, but bad players are helpless against it?
Come on ZoS. The most counterable ability in the game doesnt need a nerf!!
Duuk2 -
xXNesTXx✭✭✭I rolled a MageBlade just because Cloak is so OP. I mean it is stupid ridiculous OP. I can perma cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other, all while traveling at the speed of light with my magicka bar at 100%. I can troll groups for days even if they have AOE, Magelight, Flare, Pots etc, simply because I am so ****ing fast while cloaked. You might see me for a second, but once I hit that double take combined with cloak speed bonus from CW, I am the fastest class in the game AND I'm ****ing invisible. Lol. I dont even use a horse. Seriously.
Anyone defending cloak needs to have their head checked. Cloak is ****ing absurd.
TROLL DETECTED!
For that comment, I bet that you never played NB Class....EU PS4 Ebonheart Pact
NB Stam VR16 Breton
NB Stam VR16 Khajiit
NB Mag VR16 Breton
Templar Mag VR16 Nord
Sorc Mag VR8 High Elf
DK Stam VR10 Red Guard1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I still think the cloak "problem" is best solved by making the Flare skill- More accessible (Right now requires assault rank 7)
- Cheaper (it cost more than highest class skills)
- Actually reveal cloakers (the tooltip says only stealth)
- Actually harm NBs (they can immediately purge the DoT)
- Have some versatility so people don't feel like they are wasting a slot (like caltrops, an excellently designed skill). This does nothing except revel stealthers.
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kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.
I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?
I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.
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