Cloak Needs A Nerf

Xeven

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

15 seconds is not long enough to kill anyone good, and they are so fast while spamming cloak and double take that they can easily leave your detect radius. You get 15 seconds out of every 45 to maybe put some pressure. The rest of the time you are their play thing.

Most people dont know this but MageBlades rarely ever hide (press control to crouch). They have the regen to spam cloak every 2.5 seconds infinitely.

I am about to blow your mind. A NB can walk right into your flare and stand there and cloak. It doesnt work unless they crouch, and they don't.

There currently is no viable magicka counter to cloak (besides lol NB onry mark). Magelight radius is smaller than a detect pot, and MageBlades are FAR too fast for you to keep them within it for long.

Granted, I faceroll MageBlades on my Sorc erryday, none of them know how to use cloak properly.

Knootewoot

Xeven wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

15 seconds is not long enough to kill anyone good, and they are so fast while spamming cloak and double take that they can easily leave your detect radius. You get 15 seconds out of every 45 to maybe put some pressure. The rest of the time you are their play thing.

Most people dont know this but MageBlades rarely ever hide (press control to crouch). They have the regen to spam cloak every 2.5 seconds infinitely.

I am about to blow your mind. A NB can walk right into your flare and stand there and cloak. It doesnt work unless they crouch, and they don't.

There currently is no viable magicka counter to cloak (besides lol NB onry mark). Magelight radius is smaller than a detect pot, and MageBlades are FAR too fast for you to keep them within it for long.

Granted, I faceroll MageBlades on my Sorc erryday. None of them know how to use cloak properly however.

Spamming streak?

Tdroid

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

In my experience, with skills like Radiant Magelight, it does offer some level of counter to cloak, but it does little to nothing for anything else. Especially stamina characters, who have little benefit from spell crit. And, yes, I know Cloak is very powerful and skills that counter that alone could be good in theory, this is a game where we have a very limited number of skill slots that can not be changed during combat. And for a skill like Magelight, it needs to be double slotted to not have to constantly reactivate it.

On my damage bar, I need a strong single target skill, a gap closer and an execute skill at least. If I am a 2-hander, I also typically have to run Rally here. If I DW, I need Hidden Blade. That is 4 slots already.

If I am a Sorc, I also need Bound Armaments, which needs to be double slotted. 6 out of 10 slots taken.
As a Templar I need to run Repentence for the passive and activated regen, so 5 slots.
As a Nightblade, I should be running Cloak, but that is another discussion.
As a Dragonknight, I might have space for it.

I need at least one reliable heal. So now we are up to at least half of my bar already, and not even covered all the minimum requirements for the essentials. I also need some form of non-heal defense, like Spiked Armor for resist buff and preferably a Major Evasion buff. I need anti-CC(Shuffle is good for that) and preferably mobility. And on top of all of this, I should also slot some CC of my own.

With minimum requirements for what will make a functional setup being this demanding on our poor 10 slots, having a skill with the only purpose of countering Cloak is going to hurt me, because it requires me to shaft something very important. A Magicka build can get away with Magelight, because the crit is nice, but a Stam build don't benefit enough from it for the most part. We simply don't have enough slots to have this narrowly focused skills.

vamp_emily

Tdroid wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

In my experience, with skills like Radiant Magelight, it does offer some level of counter to cloak, but it does little to nothing for anything else. Especially stamina characters, who have little benefit from spell crit. And, yes, I know Cloak is very powerful and skills that counter that alone could be good in theory, this is a game where we have a very limited number of skill slots that can not be changed during combat. And for a skill like Magelight, it needs to be double slotted to not have to constantly reactivate it.

On my damage bar, I need a strong single target skill, a gap closer and an execute skill at least. If I am a 2-hander, I also typically have to run Rally here. If I DW, I need Hidden Blade. That is 4 slots already.

If I am a Sorc, I also need Bound Armaments, which needs to be double slotted. 6 out of 10 slots taken.
As a Templar I need to run Repentence for the passive and activated regen, so 5 slots.
As a Nightblade, I should be running Cloak, but that is another discussion.
As a Dragonknight, I might have space for it.

I need at least one reliable heal. So now we are up to at least half of my bar already, and not even covered all the minimum requirements for the essentials. I also need some form of non-heal defense, like Spiked Armor for resist buff and preferably a Major Evasion buff. I need anti-CC(Shuffle is good for that) and preferably mobility. And on top of all of this, I should also slot some CC of my own.

With minimum requirements for what will make a functional setup being this demanding on our poor 10 slots, having a skill with the only purpose of countering Cloak is going to hurt me, because it requires me to shaft something very important. A Magicka build can get away with Magelight, because the crit is nice, but a Stam build don't benefit enough from it for the most part. We simply don't have enough slots to have this narrowly focused skills.

I understand what you are saying. As a NB I would love to free up two slots but I have to use cloak to survive a fight. NBs don't have those strong single target skills that you talk about, and it is sad that we have to use cloak to retreat.

I suggest taking a good look at other classes and maybe remove their over powering skills and then I would be ok with nerfing cloak.

Tdroid

vamp_emily wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

In my experience, with skills like Radiant Magelight, it does offer some level of counter to cloak, but it does little to nothing for anything else. Especially stamina characters, who have little benefit from spell crit. And, yes, I know Cloak is very powerful and skills that counter that alone could be good in theory, this is a game where we have a very limited number of skill slots that can not be changed during combat. And for a skill like Magelight, it needs to be double slotted to not have to constantly reactivate it.

On my damage bar, I need a strong single target skill, a gap closer and an execute skill at least. If I am a 2-hander, I also typically have to run Rally here. If I DW, I need Hidden Blade. That is 4 slots already.

If I am a Sorc, I also need Bound Armaments, which needs to be double slotted. 6 out of 10 slots taken.
As a Templar I need to run Repentence for the passive and activated regen, so 5 slots.
As a Nightblade, I should be running Cloak, but that is another discussion.
As a Dragonknight, I might have space for it.

I need at least one reliable heal. So now we are up to at least half of my bar already, and not even covered all the minimum requirements for the essentials. I also need some form of non-heal defense, like Spiked Armor for resist buff and preferably a Major Evasion buff. I need anti-CC(Shuffle is good for that) and preferably mobility. And on top of all of this, I should also slot some CC of my own.

With minimum requirements for what will make a functional setup being this demanding on our poor 10 slots, having a skill with the only purpose of countering Cloak is going to hurt me, because it requires me to shaft something very important. A Magicka build can get away with Magelight, because the crit is nice, but a Stam build don't benefit enough from it for the most part. We simply don't have enough slots to have this narrowly focused skills.

I understand what you are saying. As a NB I would love to free up two slots but I have to use cloak to survive a fight. NBs don't have those strong single target skills that you talk about, and it is sad that we have to use cloak to retreat.

I suggest taking a good look at other classes and maybe remove their over powering skills and then I would be ok with nerfing cloak.

I'm assuming you run Magicka NB then, since Surprise Attack is a very strong single target skill for stamblades. Especially when either coming out of Cloak or after Ambush.

For me, the ideal way to balance the game would be to brinng back the soft caps and severely diminish the effect of Champion Points(say, max 10% benefit). Without the extreme burst and endless resource regen people have, I don't think Cloak would be as powerful as an offensive skill. Also, I think it would be fair that spamming it should incur a similar penalty to Bolt Escape and now Dodging. Or have it be a sustained toggle skill that drains magicka as you use it.

Or, at the very least, the soft caps and CP nerf could reduce the number of gankers. Hopefully.

CP5

vamp_emily wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

In my experience, with skills like Radiant Magelight, it does offer some level of counter to cloak, but it does little to nothing for anything else. Especially stamina characters, who have little benefit from spell crit. And, yes, I know Cloak is very powerful and skills that counter that alone could be good in theory, this is a game where we have a very limited number of skill slots that can not be changed during combat. And for a skill like Magelight, it needs to be double slotted to not have to constantly reactivate it.

On my damage bar, I need a strong single target skill, a gap closer and an execute skill at least. If I am a 2-hander, I also typically have to run Rally here. If I DW, I need Hidden Blade. That is 4 slots already.

If I am a Sorc, I also need Bound Armaments, which needs to be double slotted. 6 out of 10 slots taken.
As a Templar I need to run Repentence for the passive and activated regen, so 5 slots.
As a Nightblade, I should be running Cloak, but that is another discussion.
As a Dragonknight, I might have space for it.

I need at least one reliable heal. So now we are up to at least half of my bar already, and not even covered all the minimum requirements for the essentials. I also need some form of non-heal defense, like Spiked Armor for resist buff and preferably a Major Evasion buff. I need anti-CC(Shuffle is good for that) and preferably mobility. And on top of all of this, I should also slot some CC of my own.

With minimum requirements for what will make a functional setup being this demanding on our poor 10 slots, having a skill with the only purpose of countering Cloak is going to hurt me, because it requires me to shaft something very important. A Magicka build can get away with Magelight, because the crit is nice, but a Stam build don't benefit enough from it for the most part. We simply don't have enough slots to have this narrowly focused skills.

I understand what you are saying. As a NB I would love to free up two slots but I have to use cloak to survive a fight. NBs don't have those strong single target skills that you talk about, and it is sad that we have to use cloak to retreat.

I suggest taking a good look at other classes and maybe remove their over powering skills and then I would be ok with nerfing cloak.

They have been, DK's scales, nerfed. Sorc's bolt escape, nerfed several times. Templars? Hard for them to catch a break. Cloak is the defensive class skill that evaded a nerf of some type and after the changes to both class specific skills and dodge roll and block, cloak stands out like a sore thumb (if it weren't for the fact that it's invisible).

The counters for other classes unique traits are more useful. Gap-closers are always helpful for melee builds, not just for running down sorcs. Healing debuffs are far more than just an anti-templar skill. Purge does so much more than negate a dk's dots. But NB's require skills that are either incredibly situational or just bad to keep them from cloaking.

killingspreeb16_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

In my experience, with skills like Radiant Magelight, it does offer some level of counter to cloak, but it does little to nothing for anything else. Especially stamina characters, who have little benefit from spell crit. And, yes, I know Cloak is very powerful and skills that counter that alone could be good in theory, this is a game where we have a very limited number of skill slots that can not be changed during combat. And for a skill like Magelight, it needs to be double slotted to not have to constantly reactivate it.

On my damage bar, I need a strong single target skill, a gap closer and an execute skill at least. If I am a 2-hander, I also typically have to run Rally here. If I DW, I need Hidden Blade. That is 4 slots already.

If I am a Sorc, I also need Bound Armaments, which needs to be double slotted. 6 out of 10 slots taken.
As a Templar I need to run Repentence for the passive and activated regen, so 5 slots.
As a Nightblade, I should be running Cloak, but that is another discussion.
As a Dragonknight, I might have space for it.

I need at least one reliable heal. So now we are up to at least half of my bar already, and not even covered all the minimum requirements for the essentials. I also need some form of non-heal defense, like Spiked Armor for resist buff and preferably a Major Evasion buff. I need anti-CC(Shuffle is good for that) and preferably mobility. And on top of all of this, I should also slot some CC of my own.

With minimum requirements for what will make a functional setup being this demanding on our poor 10 slots, having a skill with the only purpose of countering Cloak is going to hurt me, because it requires me to shaft something very important. A Magicka build can get away with Magelight, because the crit is nice, but a Stam build don't benefit enough from it for the most part. We simply don't have enough slots to have this narrowly focused skills.

I understand what you are saying. As a NB I would love to free up two slots but I have to use cloak to survive a fight. NBs don't have those strong single target skills that you talk about, and it is sad that we have to use cloak to retreat.

I suggest taking a good look at other classes and maybe remove their over powering skills and then I would be ok with nerfing cloak.

They have been, DK's scales, nerfed. Sorc's bolt escape, nerfed several times. Templars? Hard for them to catch a break. Cloak is the defensive class skill that evaded a nerf of some type and after the changes to both class specific skills and dodge roll and block, cloak stands out like a sore thumb (if it weren't for the fact that it's invisible).

The counters for other classes unique traits are more useful. Gap-closers are always helpful for melee builds, not just for running down sorcs. Healing debuffs are far more than just an anti-templar skill. Purge does so much more than negate a dk's dots. But NB's require skills that are either incredibly situational or just bad to keep them from cloaking.

The counter to cloak are usefull too,some player can break my cloak easily other can't,gapcloser are not good to take down a sorc since the animation of bolt is faster and don't require a target to work and ALWAYS work(but i agree that gapcloser have more utility overall),if you add a penality to claok you realise that most of counter should be removed?

we need to go on this nerf train for every ability in the game?

CP5

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

In my experience, with skills like Radiant Magelight, it does offer some level of counter to cloak, but it does little to nothing for anything else. Especially stamina characters, who have little benefit from spell crit. And, yes, I know Cloak is very powerful and skills that counter that alone could be good in theory, this is a game where we have a very limited number of skill slots that can not be changed during combat. And for a skill like Magelight, it needs to be double slotted to not have to constantly reactivate it.

On my damage bar, I need a strong single target skill, a gap closer and an execute skill at least. If I am a 2-hander, I also typically have to run Rally here. If I DW, I need Hidden Blade. That is 4 slots already.

If I am a Sorc, I also need Bound Armaments, which needs to be double slotted. 6 out of 10 slots taken.
As a Templar I need to run Repentence for the passive and activated regen, so 5 slots.
As a Nightblade, I should be running Cloak, but that is another discussion.
As a Dragonknight, I might have space for it.

I need at least one reliable heal. So now we are up to at least half of my bar already, and not even covered all the minimum requirements for the essentials. I also need some form of non-heal defense, like Spiked Armor for resist buff and preferably a Major Evasion buff. I need anti-CC(Shuffle is good for that) and preferably mobility. And on top of all of this, I should also slot some CC of my own.

With minimum requirements for what will make a functional setup being this demanding on our poor 10 slots, having a skill with the only purpose of countering Cloak is going to hurt me, because it requires me to shaft something very important. A Magicka build can get away with Magelight, because the crit is nice, but a Stam build don't benefit enough from it for the most part. We simply don't have enough slots to have this narrowly focused skills.

I understand what you are saying. As a NB I would love to free up two slots but I have to use cloak to survive a fight. NBs don't have those strong single target skills that you talk about, and it is sad that we have to use cloak to retreat.

I suggest taking a good look at other classes and maybe remove their over powering skills and then I would be ok with nerfing cloak.

They have been, DK's scales, nerfed. Sorc's bolt escape, nerfed several times. Templars? Hard for them to catch a break. Cloak is the defensive class skill that evaded a nerf of some type and after the changes to both class specific skills and dodge roll and block, cloak stands out like a sore thumb (if it weren't for the fact that it's invisible).

The counters for other classes unique traits are more useful. Gap-closers are always helpful for melee builds, not just for running down sorcs. Healing debuffs are far more than just an anti-templar skill. Purge does so much more than negate a dk's dots. But NB's require skills that are either incredibly situational or just bad to keep them from cloaking.

The counter to cloak are usefull too,some player can break my cloak easily other can't,gapcloser are not good to take down a sorc since the animation of bolt is faster and don't require a target to work and ALWAYS work(but i agree that gapcloser have more utility overall),if you add a penality to claok you realise that most of counter should be removed?

we need to go on this nerf train for every ability in the game?

Radiant Magelight has an odd delay when a nb cloaks in its range sometimes (think it procs once or twice a second) and is otherwise only useful in taking the bite out of sneak attacks. Flare does little beyond checking areas for sneaking targets, haven't gotten a chance on one of my nb's to test it out to see what happens on my end but it isn't effective. AOE spam, most people only leave my aoe's because they get tired of hearing their character make noises. If you block while using the gap closer you block the stun and can keep up with a sorc (i've done this several times).

Again, I don't want zos to just run around nerfing things, but there are two things I want others to understand. 1. nb's aren't only made of cloak, they have so much going for them that anyone shouting "if cloak is nerfed the class is ruined" are to busy hiding under their cloak to see, and 2. cloak is the only defensive tactic not recently nerfed, roll dodges (not a nb exclusive thing), blocking, bolting, shields, even mist form, all less effective now and not to mention sun shield and scales. NB's have gotten off easy, and its funny seeing those who told others to adapt to nerf now say "we're not op, don't nerf us! look over there, something else to nerf! or lets just stopping all nerfs and not change our skills"

killingspreeb16_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

In my experience, with skills like Radiant Magelight, it does offer some level of counter to cloak, but it does little to nothing for anything else. Especially stamina characters, who have little benefit from spell crit. And, yes, I know Cloak is very powerful and skills that counter that alone could be good in theory, this is a game where we have a very limited number of skill slots that can not be changed during combat. And for a skill like Magelight, it needs to be double slotted to not have to constantly reactivate it.

On my damage bar, I need a strong single target skill, a gap closer and an execute skill at least. If I am a 2-hander, I also typically have to run Rally here. If I DW, I need Hidden Blade. That is 4 slots already.

If I am a Sorc, I also need Bound Armaments, which needs to be double slotted. 6 out of 10 slots taken.
As a Templar I need to run Repentence for the passive and activated regen, so 5 slots.
As a Nightblade, I should be running Cloak, but that is another discussion.
As a Dragonknight, I might have space for it.

I need at least one reliable heal. So now we are up to at least half of my bar already, and not even covered all the minimum requirements for the essentials. I also need some form of non-heal defense, like Spiked Armor for resist buff and preferably a Major Evasion buff. I need anti-CC(Shuffle is good for that) and preferably mobility. And on top of all of this, I should also slot some CC of my own.

With minimum requirements for what will make a functional setup being this demanding on our poor 10 slots, having a skill with the only purpose of countering Cloak is going to hurt me, because it requires me to shaft something very important. A Magicka build can get away with Magelight, because the crit is nice, but a Stam build don't benefit enough from it for the most part. We simply don't have enough slots to have this narrowly focused skills.

I understand what you are saying. As a NB I would love to free up two slots but I have to use cloak to survive a fight. NBs don't have those strong single target skills that you talk about, and it is sad that we have to use cloak to retreat.

I suggest taking a good look at other classes and maybe remove their over powering skills and then I would be ok with nerfing cloak.

They have been, DK's scales, nerfed. Sorc's bolt escape, nerfed several times. Templars? Hard for them to catch a break. Cloak is the defensive class skill that evaded a nerf of some type and after the changes to both class specific skills and dodge roll and block, cloak stands out like a sore thumb (if it weren't for the fact that it's invisible).

The counters for other classes unique traits are more useful. Gap-closers are always helpful for melee builds, not just for running down sorcs. Healing debuffs are far more than just an anti-templar skill. Purge does so much more than negate a dk's dots. But NB's require skills that are either incredibly situational or just bad to keep them from cloaking.

The counter to cloak are usefull too,some player can break my cloak easily other can't,gapcloser are not good to take down a sorc since the animation of bolt is faster and don't require a target to work and ALWAYS work(but i agree that gapcloser have more utility overall),if you add a penality to claok you realise that most of counter should be removed?

we need to go on this nerf train for every ability in the game?

Radiant Magelight has an odd delay when a nb cloaks in its range sometimes (think it procs once or twice a second) and is otherwise only useful in taking the bite out of sneak attacks. Flare does little beyond checking areas for sneaking targets, haven't gotten a chance on one of my nb's to test it out to see what happens on my end but it isn't effective. AOE spam, most people only leave my aoe's because they get tired of hearing their character make noises. If you block while using the gap closer you block the stun and can keep up with a sorc (i've done this several times).

Again, I don't want zos to just run around nerfing things, but there are two things I want others to understand. 1. nb's aren't only made of cloak, they have so much going for them that anyone shouting "if cloak is nerfed the class is ruined" are to busy hiding under their cloak to see, and 2. cloak is the only defensive tactic not recently nerfed, roll dodges (not a nb exclusive thing), blocking, bolting, shields, even mist form, all less effective now and not to mention sun shield and scales. NB's have gotten off easy, and its funny seeing those who told others to adapt to nerf now say "we're not op, don't nerf us! look over there, something else to nerf! or lets just stopping all nerfs and not change our skills"

same goes for sorc,they are the top class(in my opinion)and look how many player where complain about shieldbreaker (i find that set very situational)the only counter to shieldstacking,the reason why cloak don't have a penality is because can be countered by many thing unlike bolt even if i catch you again you traveled your distance,is not like my gapcloser keep you on place make you lose mana and then nothing,while the counter to cloak does exatclty that.I will support a buff for magelight and flare or even a penality to cloak IF most counter are removed,im a stamina NB i can't spam cloak endlessly2-3 time and im OOM,and i never supported any nerf to Dk scale or Sorc Bolt.

if we go on the Nerf train well shield and heal i think are the next target,since they can be spammed without penality.

CP5

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

In my experience, with skills like Radiant Magelight, it does offer some level of counter to cloak, but it does little to nothing for anything else. Especially stamina characters, who have little benefit from spell crit. And, yes, I know Cloak is very powerful and skills that counter that alone could be good in theory, this is a game where we have a very limited number of skill slots that can not be changed during combat. And for a skill like Magelight, it needs to be double slotted to not have to constantly reactivate it.

On my damage bar, I need a strong single target skill, a gap closer and an execute skill at least. If I am a 2-hander, I also typically have to run Rally here. If I DW, I need Hidden Blade. That is 4 slots already.

If I am a Sorc, I also need Bound Armaments, which needs to be double slotted. 6 out of 10 slots taken.
As a Templar I need to run Repentence for the passive and activated regen, so 5 slots.
As a Nightblade, I should be running Cloak, but that is another discussion.
As a Dragonknight, I might have space for it.

I need at least one reliable heal. So now we are up to at least half of my bar already, and not even covered all the minimum requirements for the essentials. I also need some form of non-heal defense, like Spiked Armor for resist buff and preferably a Major Evasion buff. I need anti-CC(Shuffle is good for that) and preferably mobility. And on top of all of this, I should also slot some CC of my own.

With minimum requirements for what will make a functional setup being this demanding on our poor 10 slots, having a skill with the only purpose of countering Cloak is going to hurt me, because it requires me to shaft something very important. A Magicka build can get away with Magelight, because the crit is nice, but a Stam build don't benefit enough from it for the most part. We simply don't have enough slots to have this narrowly focused skills.

I understand what you are saying. As a NB I would love to free up two slots but I have to use cloak to survive a fight. NBs don't have those strong single target skills that you talk about, and it is sad that we have to use cloak to retreat.

I suggest taking a good look at other classes and maybe remove their over powering skills and then I would be ok with nerfing cloak.

They have been, DK's scales, nerfed. Sorc's bolt escape, nerfed several times. Templars? Hard for them to catch a break. Cloak is the defensive class skill that evaded a nerf of some type and after the changes to both class specific skills and dodge roll and block, cloak stands out like a sore thumb (if it weren't for the fact that it's invisible).

The counters for other classes unique traits are more useful. Gap-closers are always helpful for melee builds, not just for running down sorcs. Healing debuffs are far more than just an anti-templar skill. Purge does so much more than negate a dk's dots. But NB's require skills that are either incredibly situational or just bad to keep them from cloaking.

The counter to cloak are usefull too,some player can break my cloak easily other can't,gapcloser are not good to take down a sorc since the animation of bolt is faster and don't require a target to work and ALWAYS work(but i agree that gapcloser have more utility overall),if you add a penality to claok you realise that most of counter should be removed?

we need to go on this nerf train for every ability in the game?

Radiant Magelight has an odd delay when a nb cloaks in its range sometimes (think it procs once or twice a second) and is otherwise only useful in taking the bite out of sneak attacks. Flare does little beyond checking areas for sneaking targets, haven't gotten a chance on one of my nb's to test it out to see what happens on my end but it isn't effective. AOE spam, most people only leave my aoe's because they get tired of hearing their character make noises. If you block while using the gap closer you block the stun and can keep up with a sorc (i've done this several times).

Again, I don't want zos to just run around nerfing things, but there are two things I want others to understand. 1. nb's aren't only made of cloak, they have so much going for them that anyone shouting "if cloak is nerfed the class is ruined" are to busy hiding under their cloak to see, and 2. cloak is the only defensive tactic not recently nerfed, roll dodges (not a nb exclusive thing), blocking, bolting, shields, even mist form, all less effective now and not to mention sun shield and scales. NB's have gotten off easy, and its funny seeing those who told others to adapt to nerf now say "we're not op, don't nerf us! look over there, something else to nerf! or lets just stopping all nerfs and not change our skills"

same goes for sorc,they are the top class(in my opinion)and look how many player where complain about shieldbreaker (i find that set very situational)the only counter to shieldstacking,the reason why cloak don't have a penality is because can be countered by many thing unlike bolt even if i catch you again you traveled your distance,is not like my gapcloser keep you on place make you lose mana and then nothing,while the counter to cloak does exatclty that.I will support a buff for magelight and flare or even a penality to cloak IF most counter are removed,im a stamina NB i can't spam cloak endlessly2-3 time and im OOM,and i never supported any nerf to Dk scale or Sorc Bolt.

if we go on the Nerf train well shield and heal i think are the next target,since they can be spammed without penality.

Sadly I expect a nerf sometime for cloak since that is the way things have gone. People still argue that bolt needs a nerf despite all of its nerfs but to be fair heals already have the somewhat-widely available heal debuffs.

killingspreeb16_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

In my experience, with skills like Radiant Magelight, it does offer some level of counter to cloak, but it does little to nothing for anything else. Especially stamina characters, who have little benefit from spell crit. And, yes, I know Cloak is very powerful and skills that counter that alone could be good in theory, this is a game where we have a very limited number of skill slots that can not be changed during combat. And for a skill like Magelight, it needs to be double slotted to not have to constantly reactivate it.

On my damage bar, I need a strong single target skill, a gap closer and an execute skill at least. If I am a 2-hander, I also typically have to run Rally here. If I DW, I need Hidden Blade. That is 4 slots already.

If I am a Sorc, I also need Bound Armaments, which needs to be double slotted. 6 out of 10 slots taken.
As a Templar I need to run Repentence for the passive and activated regen, so 5 slots.
As a Nightblade, I should be running Cloak, but that is another discussion.
As a Dragonknight, I might have space for it.

I need at least one reliable heal. So now we are up to at least half of my bar already, and not even covered all the minimum requirements for the essentials. I also need some form of non-heal defense, like Spiked Armor for resist buff and preferably a Major Evasion buff. I need anti-CC(Shuffle is good for that) and preferably mobility. And on top of all of this, I should also slot some CC of my own.

With minimum requirements for what will make a functional setup being this demanding on our poor 10 slots, having a skill with the only purpose of countering Cloak is going to hurt me, because it requires me to shaft something very important. A Magicka build can get away with Magelight, because the crit is nice, but a Stam build don't benefit enough from it for the most part. We simply don't have enough slots to have this narrowly focused skills.

I understand what you are saying. As a NB I would love to free up two slots but I have to use cloak to survive a fight. NBs don't have those strong single target skills that you talk about, and it is sad that we have to use cloak to retreat.

I suggest taking a good look at other classes and maybe remove their over powering skills and then I would be ok with nerfing cloak.

They have been, DK's scales, nerfed. Sorc's bolt escape, nerfed several times. Templars? Hard for them to catch a break. Cloak is the defensive class skill that evaded a nerf of some type and after the changes to both class specific skills and dodge roll and block, cloak stands out like a sore thumb (if it weren't for the fact that it's invisible).

The counters for other classes unique traits are more useful. Gap-closers are always helpful for melee builds, not just for running down sorcs. Healing debuffs are far more than just an anti-templar skill. Purge does so much more than negate a dk's dots. But NB's require skills that are either incredibly situational or just bad to keep them from cloaking.

The counter to cloak are usefull too,some player can break my cloak easily other can't,gapcloser are not good to take down a sorc since the animation of bolt is faster and don't require a target to work and ALWAYS work(but i agree that gapcloser have more utility overall),if you add a penality to claok you realise that most of counter should be removed?

we need to go on this nerf train for every ability in the game?

Radiant Magelight has an odd delay when a nb cloaks in its range sometimes (think it procs once or twice a second) and is otherwise only useful in taking the bite out of sneak attacks. Flare does little beyond checking areas for sneaking targets, haven't gotten a chance on one of my nb's to test it out to see what happens on my end but it isn't effective. AOE spam, most people only leave my aoe's because they get tired of hearing their character make noises. If you block while using the gap closer you block the stun and can keep up with a sorc (i've done this several times).

Again, I don't want zos to just run around nerfing things, but there are two things I want others to understand. 1. nb's aren't only made of cloak, they have so much going for them that anyone shouting "if cloak is nerfed the class is ruined" are to busy hiding under their cloak to see, and 2. cloak is the only defensive tactic not recently nerfed, roll dodges (not a nb exclusive thing), blocking, bolting, shields, even mist form, all less effective now and not to mention sun shield and scales. NB's have gotten off easy, and its funny seeing those who told others to adapt to nerf now say "we're not op, don't nerf us! look over there, something else to nerf! or lets just stopping all nerfs and not change our skills"

same goes for sorc,they are the top class(in my opinion)and look how many player where complain about shieldbreaker (i find that set very situational)the only counter to shieldstacking,the reason why cloak don't have a penality is because can be countered by many thing unlike bolt even if i catch you again you traveled your distance,is not like my gapcloser keep you on place make you lose mana and then nothing,while the counter to cloak does exatclty that.I will support a buff for magelight and flare or even a penality to cloak IF most counter are removed,im a stamina NB i can't spam cloak endlessly2-3 time and im OOM,and i never supported any nerf to Dk scale or Sorc Bolt.

if we go on the Nerf train well shield and heal i think are the next target,since they can be spammed without penality.

Sadly I expect a nerf sometime for cloak since that is the way things have gone. People still argue that bolt needs a nerf despite all of its nerfs but to be fair heals already have the somewhat-widely available heal debuffs.

ye i know but since heal can be spammed someone will find them annoyng(since every spammed defense is like to get a penality) and start asking nerf for "reason".A nerf to cloak that will not destroy the ability for a stamina NB don't know something like speed buff are not working while you are under the effect of cloak or magika regen capped at 1k for example are somethng that will make the ability less powerfull but viable especially for a stamina Nb that can't spam cloak.

revonine

I've been gap closed while trying to cloak away so many times and have been pulled out of cloak this way even after these so called fixes. Even if it doesn't damage me follow up with an aoe and I'm immediately found again.

No nerfs to cloak should even be considered until this buggy skill has been fixed.

kadar

Tdroid wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

In my experience, with skills like Radiant Magelight, it does offer some level of counter to cloak, but it does little to nothing for anything else. Especially stamina characters, who have little benefit from spell crit. And, yes, I know Cloak is very powerful and skills that counter that alone could be good in theory, this is a game where we have a very limited number of skill slots that can not be changed during combat. And for a skill like Magelight, it needs to be double slotted to not have to constantly reactivate it.

On my damage bar, I need a strong single target skill, a gap closer and an execute skill at least. If I am a 2-hander, I also typically have to run Rally here. If I DW, I need Hidden Blade. That is 4 slots already.

If I am a Sorc, I also need Bound Armaments, which needs to be double slotted. 6 out of 10 slots taken.
As a Templar I need to run Repentence for the passive and activated regen, so 5 slots.
As a Nightblade, I should be running Cloak, but that is another discussion.
As a Dragonknight, I might have space for it.

I need at least one reliable heal. So now we are up to at least half of my bar already, and not even covered all the minimum requirements for the essentials. I also need some form of non-heal defense, like Spiked Armor for resist buff and preferably a Major Evasion buff. I need anti-CC(Shuffle is good for that) and preferably mobility. And on top of all of this, I should also slot some CC of my own.

With minimum requirements for what will make a functional setup being this demanding on our poor 10 slots, having a skill with the only purpose of countering Cloak is going to hurt me, because it requires me to shaft something very important. A Magicka build can get away with Magelight, because the crit is nice, but a Stam build don't benefit enough from it for the most part. We simply don't have enough slots to have this narrowly focused skills.

@Tdroid
Good points, mate. I think I addressed this in an earlier comment on this thread. IF you feel that MageBlade's are SO OP to deserve a slot on your bar (as I mentioned, I don't)-- Caltrops (you speak as though you are a Stam build. If you feel that you MUST counter the MNBs with a skill, ZOS has given us options, and combinations of options.

And I agree with you. As a Stam NB, I have a hard time freeing up a slot. So I choose not to. Most of the time. My build is centered around my ability to perform without the support of a group, and that sounds a little bit like the hypothetical builds you talked about. What I will do when grouped, is sacrifice a little survivability or dmg and slot caltrops or mark for some added group utility.

kadar

Xeven wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

15 seconds is not long enough to kill anyone good, and they are so fast while spamming cloak and double take that they can easily leave your detect radius. You get 15 seconds out of every 45 to maybe put some pressure. The rest of the time you are their play thing.

Most people dont know this but MageBlades rarely ever hide (press control to crouch). They have the regen to spam cloak every 2.5 seconds infinitely.

I am about to blow your mind. A NB can walk right into your flare and stand there and cloak. It doesnt work unless they crouch, and they don't.

There currently is no viable magicka counter to cloak (besides lol NB onry mark). Magelight radius is smaller than a detect pot, and MageBlades are FAR too fast for you to keep them within it for long.

Granted, I faceroll MageBlades on my Sorc erryday, none of them know how to use cloak properly.

@Xeven

15 seconds is plenty of time to kill any player when you are in a group (assuming some competency). 15 seconds is also plenty of time to kill the vast majority of players even when solo (again assuming some competency). This is also assuming that the absolute only thing you are doing is using a detect pot. Many players use a detect pot + other counters (and they should).

Concerning Flare... My mind is quite blown. Why would ZOS even design a skill that functions so poorly, I don't know. I think Joy mentioned earlier how flare should be buffed into a usable state. Most certainly it should.

Magicka Sorc...last time I fought one....Oh. Streak. You just have to guess in a general direction, watch it break cloak, and then watch the NB have to CC break. Might even proc frag for some sweet deeps.

Granted, I faceroll MageBlades on my Sorc erryday, none of them know how to use cloak properly.

This^
I also do some facerolling. And I'm not even a great player. Which is part of my point. If ZOS nerfs Cloak into the ground (like many here think they should) because 0.5% of MNBs are super OP, I will be a sad khajit. The skill will then be useless for the rest of us mortals down here. 99.5% of us.

Derra

Well 0.5% of sorcs had super op shields and teleport.

Both got nerfed bc if these few players. Why should it be different for NBs.

k2blader

Derra wrote: »

Well 0.5% of sorcs had super op shields and teleport.

Both got nerfed bc if these few players. Why should it be different for NBs.

Nailed it.

Forum history has shown NBs are by far the most vocal to call for nerfs on others so I have little sympathy.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Funny seeing so many familiar names from the Shieldbreaker threads here objecting. lmao

Sabre, I know you want balance, but honestly, this isn't the way to go about it. Other games use skill cooldowns, ESO uses resources, so until our beloved "infinite resources" aren't fixed (though anything threatening the zerg does get nerfed that way already, yes...) there will be no balance and nothing close to it.
So yeah, leave Cloak alone. And someone shut off the crying NBs.

I'm afraid it seems that after months of going on about 'fix cloak' threads the nightblades here have developed a purely cloaked source of infinite power. They will be able to spam this source of power with the continued memories of broken skills, thread hijacking, and robberies of other players sweat rolls that they will be able to go on forever, and can not be turned off (as the off switch is also, cloaked).

EDIT: Also, NB's that believe that 1. cloak being changed would break their entire class, you know there are 3 skill trees with rather nice skills in them, right? 2. that you have 3 major movement speed buffs plus a decent teleport you could use to escape, rather than just spamming cloak

this

Hexys

Nightblade -> endless cloak to regain full health
Sorcerer -> streak away to regain full health
Templar -> Breath of Life to regain full health
Dragonknight -> R.I.P. if no ultimate

Only 'personal' problem I have with Nightblades is that they go into a fight, oh wait can't win let's cloak 5 times regain health and try to burst again. I find this a pathetic playstyle and would love to see a nerf to cloak in a way nightblades can't regen health or get healed while cloaking.

Soulac

Hexys wrote: »

Nightblade -> endless cloak to regain full health
Sorcerer -> streak away to regain full health
Templar -> Breath of Life to regain full health
Dragonknight -> R.I.P. if no ultimate

Only 'personal' problem I have with Nightblades is that they go into a fight, oh wait can't win let's cloak 5 times regain health and try to burst again. I find this a pathetic playstyle and would love to see a nerf to cloak in a way nightblades can't regen health or get healed while cloaking.

Healing ward + break cloak by yourself before it ends.
Stopping healing would rather hit Staminablades than perm cloaking Magicka ones.

TheNephilimCrow

Hexys wrote: »

Nightblade -> endless cloak to regain full health
Sorcerer -> streak away to regain full health
Templar -> Breath of Life to regain full health
Dragonknight -> R.I.P. if no ultimate

Only 'personal' problem I have with Nightblades is that they go into a fight, oh wait can't win let's cloak 5 times regain health and try to burst again. I find this a pathetic playstyle and would love to see a nerf to cloak in a way nightblades can't regen health or get healed while cloaking.

Oh but other classes spamming self heals is just super acceptable. Right?

Cathexis

The_Outsider wrote: »

you then also have to make the assumption that the nightblade is doing everything in their power to counter that player. So both players are trying to counter each other.

That's exactly what I was trying to point out actually. And it's why I prefaced my original statement with "purely speaking of the Cloak skill."

Since it's an obvious given that both players are doing everything in their power to win, the only things we are left to measure are the effects that individual skills have on each other. To clarify: Caltrops/Detect pots/RML/AOE/ect. (Gap closures being an example of an advantage instead of an "I win") hard counter Cloak in the same way that dodge roll counters Wrecking Blow, or purge counters a DoT, or shield breaker hard counters a shield. These skills nullify/ignore other skills completely. No NB can ever Cloak through these counters. The only option is to flee. And since the opponent obviously will pursue, those ideas cancel each other. (Also if the NB is the aggressor, forcing him to flee is a win in and of itself).

So as to not get lost in the logic banter, my over-all goal here is to point out just how effectively cloak can be countered with the tools that we have. Also that a few of these counters are not simply slight advantages against cloak. They completely reverse the effect instantaneously. There is also an eerie similarity between the arguments of Shield Breaker vs. Shields and Things-that-break-Cloak vs. Cloak.

But you can't just simply remove the player variable to satisfy the argument that one skill completely negates another. That doesn't work. You're putting all the skills in a vacuum and not considering the idea that the player's response can directly influence the impact of a counter. The only skill/counter combo you listed that might be a hard counter when you take that into consideration is a dot/purge interaction, and even then dots still do damage before the purge. Every supposed hard counter you mentioned is circumstantial. Dodge roll only counters wrecking blow if the end of the roll occurs after the swing and outside its range. Players influence both the direction of rolls and the subsequent positioning of the wrecking blow. Same goes for caltrops, detect pots, steel tornade, etcetc.

tist

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Bolt escape is not even an escape at this point. If you do manage to clear some distance and get caught you will be out of mana. Many players are now using snares and roots this patch as well. Perma Invis that clears dots is vastly superior.

edit: I do not think cloak needs a nerf but other classes should have a reliable escape as well. Bolt escape nerf reverted and mist form needs to be only targetable by AOE.

Cathexis

Domander wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^Except that purely speaking of the Cloak skill, it does have a bunch of "I win" buttons. They could also be called "hard counters" in the sense that they completely nullify the skill.

Yesterday in IC sewer zone chat, I made the statement: Detect pot > NB. Immediately, no fewer than 3 other players type back, "ya, except detect pots don't work when they cloak." And: "no, only AOE will pull them out of cloak."

We then had a really informative discussion about how to shut down Cloak. It is this kind of confusion and misinformation that facilitate the belief in the Cloak spamming Demi-gods of legend.

Many times, upon being countered, a NB loses all advantage and progress it's made (with it's OP cloak, I mean) by being slammed with every ability on my bar while it tries to figure out why I am still hitting it.

Cloak is strong. Whatever happens with the (sort of) promised nerf, let's keep it that way. Cause who likes watered-down skills (*cough* dragonblood*cough*).

@The_Outsider except that if you really think about it, there is no true hard counter to any ability. An easy example is the cloak potion dilemma. A good nightblade can anicipate potions, move out of range, cloak spam through mobs and achieve safety.

Because nightblades have this magical ability to know when players are going to use detect potions.

You are really trying hard.

@Domander
Nightblades have the exact same expectation of players when trying to find them with cloak. I have seen dozens of posts on the forums confirming this perspective with players claiming they to paraphrase "anticipate where nightblades stealth."

If players are expected to anticipate the invisible location of another player, then it is only fair that nightblades are expected to anticipate when another player chugs a potion.

Many potions offer visual cues and beyond that if you spam cloak and are still getting whacked on without any presence of a counter, maybe that is a hint.

Cathexis

tist wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Bolt escape is not even an escape at this point. If you do manage to clear some distance and get caught you will be out of mana. Many players are now using snares and roots this patch as well. Perma Invis that clears dots is vastly superior.

Agree..it was changed on the basis that it should be used as a tactical skill. Its now basically a weak version of teleport strike that does very little damage. Costs way too many resources, and doesnt place you on top of the target.

Could you imagine if teleport strike got increasing magicka costs per cast? NBs would lose their ***.

Cathexis

k2blader wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well 0.5% of sorcs had super op shields and teleport.

Both got nerfed bc if these few players. Why should it be different for NBs.

Nailed it.

Forum history has shown NBs are by far the most vocal to call for nerfs on others so I have little sympathy.

Agree.

Cathexis

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^ Really good suggestion! I think they took a step in the right direction when they (I think recently?) increased the projectile speed to be similar to caltrops'. Moar flare buffs.

I only ponder the irony of a whole bunch of players making a case for how crazy OP and powerful Cloak is right now, and in the same breathe, refuse to slot a skill that "does nothing except reveal stealthers." if it is so powerful right now, why not use one of twelve skill slots to do something about it?

I personally do not grace the cloak skill with a single counter on my bars, instead preferring the all-powerful, hard counter of detect pot.

In my experience, with skills like Radiant Magelight, it does offer some level of counter to cloak, but it does little to nothing for anything else. Especially stamina characters, who have little benefit from spell crit. And, yes, I know Cloak is very powerful and skills that counter that alone could be good in theory, this is a game where we have a very limited number of skill slots that can not be changed during combat. And for a skill like Magelight, it needs to be double slotted to not have to constantly reactivate it.

On my damage bar, I need a strong single target skill, a gap closer and an execute skill at least. If I am a 2-hander, I also typically have to run Rally here. If I DW, I need Hidden Blade. That is 4 slots already.

If I am a Sorc, I also need Bound Armaments, which needs to be double slotted. 6 out of 10 slots taken.
As a Templar I need to run Repentence for the passive and activated regen, so 5 slots.
As a Nightblade, I should be running Cloak, but that is another discussion.
As a Dragonknight, I might have space for it.

I need at least one reliable heal. So now we are up to at least half of my bar already, and not even covered all the minimum requirements for the essentials. I also need some form of non-heal defense, like Spiked Armor for resist buff and preferably a Major Evasion buff. I need anti-CC(Shuffle is good for that) and preferably mobility. And on top of all of this, I should also slot some CC of my own.

With minimum requirements for what will make a functional setup being this demanding on our poor 10 slots, having a skill with the only purpose of countering Cloak is going to hurt me, because it requires me to shaft something very important. A Magicka build can get away with Magelight, because the crit is nice, but a Stam build don't benefit enough from it for the most part. We simply don't have enough slots to have this narrowly focused skills.

I understand what you are saying. As a NB I would love to free up two slots but I have to use cloak to survive a fight. NBs don't have those strong single target skills that you talk about, and it is sad that we have to use cloak to retreat.

I suggest taking a good look at other classes and maybe remove their over powering skills and then I would be ok with nerfing cloak.

They have been, DK's scales, nerfed. Sorc's bolt escape, nerfed several times. Templars? Hard for them to catch a break. Cloak is the defensive class skill that evaded a nerf of some type and after the changes to both class specific skills and dodge roll and block, cloak stands out like a sore thumb (if it weren't for the fact that it's invisible).

The counters for other classes unique traits are more useful. Gap-closers are always helpful for melee builds, not just for running down sorcs. Healing debuffs are far more than just an anti-templar skill. Purge does so much more than negate a dk's dots. But NB's require skills that are either incredibly situational or just bad to keep them from cloaking.

The counter to cloak are usefull too,some player can break my cloak easily other can't,gapcloser are not good to take down a sorc since the animation of bolt is faster and don't require a target to work and ALWAYS work(but i agree that gapcloser have more utility overall),if you add a penality to claok you realise that most of counter should be removed?

we need to go on this nerf train for every ability in the game?

Your forgetting that virtually any range ability also counters bolt (as I have said before, I should know this, pre-IC I ran a snipe build where I relished killing sorcs with a 20-30k snipe at 45 meters).

Really the comparison between bolt and cloak is also the wrong comparison. Really the comparison should be between bolt and teleport strike, and cloak and hardened ward. In both comparisons, nightblades have the better ability. Specifically looking at cloak vs ward however, the reason these are comparable is because cloak and ward are both notoriously one button survival abilities. The reason ward was nerfed was because it provided too much survivability for a single skill. The exact same is true of cloak.. And don't ask me to prove it to you just look at the dozens of nightblades who claim that their entire survivability hinges on cloak.

Domander

Cathexis wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^Except that purely speaking of the Cloak skill, it does have a bunch of "I win" buttons. They could also be called "hard counters" in the sense that they completely nullify the skill.

Yesterday in IC sewer zone chat, I made the statement: Detect pot > NB. Immediately, no fewer than 3 other players type back, "ya, except detect pots don't work when they cloak." And: "no, only AOE will pull them out of cloak."

We then had a really informative discussion about how to shut down Cloak. It is this kind of confusion and misinformation that facilitate the belief in the Cloak spamming Demi-gods of legend.

Many times, upon being countered, a NB loses all advantage and progress it's made (with it's OP cloak, I mean) by being slammed with every ability on my bar while it tries to figure out why I am still hitting it.

Cloak is strong. Whatever happens with the (sort of) promised nerf, let's keep it that way. Cause who likes watered-down skills (*cough* dragonblood*cough*).

@The_Outsider except that if you really think about it, there is no true hard counter to any ability. An easy example is the cloak potion dilemma. A good nightblade can anicipate potions, move out of range, cloak spam through mobs and achieve safety.

Because nightblades have this magical ability to know when players are going to use detect potions.

You are really trying hard.

@Domander
Nightblades have the exact same expectation of players when trying to find them with cloak. I have seen dozens of posts on the forums confirming this perspective with players claiming they to paraphrase "anticipate where nightblades stealth."

If players are expected to anticipate the invisible location of another player, then it is only fair that nightblades are expected to anticipate when another player chugs a potion.

Many potions offer visual cues and beyond that if you spam cloak and are still getting whacked on without any presence of a counter, maybe that is a hint.

You say a good nightblade can anticipate potions and move out of range, then you say that getting hit through cloak is a clue. I dont think you understand that once a nightblade is seen, any competent player is not going to let them out of range.

A lot of what you post is nonsense make-believe.

You can keep trying though, any nerf to cloak would also have to remove some counter play to be balanced, and that would likely be detect pots since that's the easiest change.

CP5

Domander wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^Except that purely speaking of the Cloak skill, it does have a bunch of "I win" buttons. They could also be called "hard counters" in the sense that they completely nullify the skill.

Yesterday in IC sewer zone chat, I made the statement: Detect pot > NB. Immediately, no fewer than 3 other players type back, "ya, except detect pots don't work when they cloak." And: "no, only AOE will pull them out of cloak."

We then had a really informative discussion about how to shut down Cloak. It is this kind of confusion and misinformation that facilitate the belief in the Cloak spamming Demi-gods of legend.

Many times, upon being countered, a NB loses all advantage and progress it's made (with it's OP cloak, I mean) by being slammed with every ability on my bar while it tries to figure out why I am still hitting it.

Cloak is strong. Whatever happens with the (sort of) promised nerf, let's keep it that way. Cause who likes watered-down skills (*cough* dragonblood*cough*).

@The_Outsider except that if you really think about it, there is no true hard counter to any ability. An easy example is the cloak potion dilemma. A good nightblade can anicipate potions, move out of range, cloak spam through mobs and achieve safety.

Because nightblades have this magical ability to know when players are going to use detect potions.

You are really trying hard.

@Domander
Nightblades have the exact same expectation of players when trying to find them with cloak. I have seen dozens of posts on the forums confirming this perspective with players claiming they to paraphrase "anticipate where nightblades stealth."

If players are expected to anticipate the invisible location of another player, then it is only fair that nightblades are expected to anticipate when another player chugs a potion.

Many potions offer visual cues and beyond that if you spam cloak and are still getting whacked on without any presence of a counter, maybe that is a hint.

You say a good nightblade can anticipate potions and move out of range, then you say that getting hit through cloak is a clue. I dont think you understand that once a nightblade is seen, any competent player is not going to let them out of range.

A lot of what you post is nonsense make-believe.

If the NB just spams cloak, expecting to still get away sure, but with 3 sources of the major speed buff, a long range teleport with little visual que, fear/snare combined, and likely things i'm forgetting, a nb that wants to get away will get away. I will take partial blame in causing some of the cloak is broke threads, hitting a nb with peircing mark then watching them spam cloak while running in a straight line is likely to cause a few to open up when they notice that cloak didn't get them out of jail free.

Domander

CP5 wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^Except that purely speaking of the Cloak skill, it does have a bunch of "I win" buttons. They could also be called "hard counters" in the sense that they completely nullify the skill.

Yesterday in IC sewer zone chat, I made the statement: Detect pot > NB. Immediately, no fewer than 3 other players type back, "ya, except detect pots don't work when they cloak." And: "no, only AOE will pull them out of cloak."

We then had a really informative discussion about how to shut down Cloak. It is this kind of confusion and misinformation that facilitate the belief in the Cloak spamming Demi-gods of legend.

Many times, upon being countered, a NB loses all advantage and progress it's made (with it's OP cloak, I mean) by being slammed with every ability on my bar while it tries to figure out why I am still hitting it.

Cloak is strong. Whatever happens with the (sort of) promised nerf, let's keep it that way. Cause who likes watered-down skills (*cough* dragonblood*cough*).

@The_Outsider except that if you really think about it, there is no true hard counter to any ability. An easy example is the cloak potion dilemma. A good nightblade can anicipate potions, move out of range, cloak spam through mobs and achieve safety.

Because nightblades have this magical ability to know when players are going to use detect potions.

You are really trying hard.

@Domander
Nightblades have the exact same expectation of players when trying to find them with cloak. I have seen dozens of posts on the forums confirming this perspective with players claiming they to paraphrase "anticipate where nightblades stealth."

If players are expected to anticipate the invisible location of another player, then it is only fair that nightblades are expected to anticipate when another player chugs a potion.

Many potions offer visual cues and beyond that if you spam cloak and are still getting whacked on without any presence of a counter, maybe that is a hint.

You say a good nightblade can anticipate potions and move out of range, then you say that getting hit through cloak is a clue. I dont think you understand that once a nightblade is seen, any competent player is not going to let them out of range.

A lot of what you post is nonsense make-believe.

If the NB just spams cloak, expecting to still get away sure, but with 3 sources of the major speed buff, a long range teleport with little visual que, fear/snare combined, and likely things i'm forgetting, a nb that wants to get away will get away. I will take partial blame in causing some of the cloak is broke threads, hitting a nb with peircing mark then watching them spam cloak while running in a straight line is likely to cause a few to open up when they notice that cloak didn't get them out of jail free.

This comes down to player skill, gap close/stun/snare/mark/aoe the nightblade.

Darnathian

Derra wrote: »

Well 0.5% of sorcs had super op shields and teleport.

Both got nerfed bc if these few players. Why should it be different for NBs.

How exactly were shields nerfed? No they were not. Sorc shield stacking is still supreme. Equally skilled nb vrs sorc the sorc will always win still.