Cloak Needs A Nerf

Cathexis

Knootewoot wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

The best explanation I have heard for the problem is this:

Magicka nightblades currently have the ability to control when a fight begins, and when it ends, irrespective of counters.
This rationale was used to implement changes to bolt escape and it's morphs (yes it had counters too, you just didn't use them).
Subsequently, no other class now currently has this capacity.
The exact same rationale applies here: a class has the absolute capacity to dictate the terms of a fight, and it has been determined, by popular opinion, that that capacity is imbalanced.

Every class can control when a fight begins. Just stealth and wait for someone to walk by and attack.

Many people already said it.. cloak is OP.. if combined with shadow. Or you could say.. cloak is not OP because not everyone wants or uses shadow. Then they say.. if you not use shadow you don't use your class abilities right (as if everyone NB should use shadow). So basically... cloak is not OP.. it's shadow.

So keep cloak as it is and nerf shadow.

@Knootewoot stealth and cloak are not the same thing. Perhaps I should be more clear then: nightblades can control when a fight begins AND ends, at any time.

FuriousFridge

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

This is one of the skills that is pushing nightblades in to the overpowered territory. The skill needs to stay spammable for its after effects like 100% crit or DOT removal, but the duration of invisibility should be treated like bolt escape and last 33%-50% less time each time its cast. You should not be able to stay invisible continuously for longer than 7-10 seconds, which is already a long time.

First cloak: duration is 100% 3.5 seconds
Second Cloak: is 2.3 seconds
Third Cloak: is 1.5 seconds
Fourth Cloak: is 1 second
Fifth Cloak: is .6 seconds
Sixth Cloak: is .4 seconds
Seventh Cloak: is .3 seconds
Eight Cloak: is .2 seconds
Ninth Cloak: is .1 seconds

Something like this would allow people to only be invisible for about 7-10 seconds max if they spam cloak. The timer should be similar to roll dodge and bolt escape.

Just stop...

Erudition

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.

Domander

Erudition wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.

It's troubling that players think there are counters to bolt escape.....

Gap closers do not counter bolt escape, they just let players keep up sometimes

It's very easy to nullify cloak, and multiple ways to do it.

Erudition

Erudition wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.

And even though we don't know each other, we have fought many times and Ali Sabre is an honest to goodness great NB.

JDar

After a month of IC with a fully functional cloak, I think it's pretty obvious that if nightblades are too strong it's not because of cloak. Stamina nightblades are still dropping tons of physical damage with very little means of resistance like there is for magicka damage (harness magicka, champion system), and magicka nightblades are easily dealt with despite being able to remain invisible for protracted periods of time. @ZOS_GinaBruno please close this thread and consider how easy it is to deal physical damage in this game.

xXNesTXx

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Thanks for hear to the stupids and make the game a little bit more ***

Nightblades don't have shields, don't have self healing and the only real advantage is the stealth bonus, and now you want nerf the cloak.....first one make the stamina builds almost useless, and now wants nerf the magicka builds too.... very nice....

Templars are crap since beginning, Dk gets a huge nerf (Because of the same crybabies)....and now it's time to destroy NB class too....well...if you want that we only play with sorcerer class, can remove the others from the game directly...

Damnit the low options of MMO in console....Because ESO does not look great in a future.....

NativeJoe

While I agree that nightblades are killing me ALOT more then they used to now... I would never ask for a nerf. Don't asks for nerfs to anyone. instead ask for the other classes to be brought up to par with the new status quo. When u "ask" for the "nerf hammer" you NEVER get what you want. trust me. they start swinging it and don't know when to stop...and before you know it several classes are crippled for months.

Xsorus

You could just remove the moronic change to cloak that made it dodge attacks

zatohonour

Erudition wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.

Respectfully,cloak doesn't work instantly after a detect pot is used.

Darnathian

xXNesTXx wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Thanks for hear to the stupids and make the game a little bit more ***

Nightblades don't have shields, don't have self healing and the only real advantage is the stealth bonus, and now you want nerf the cloak.....first one make the stamina builds almost useless, and now wants nerf the magicka builds too.... very nice....

Templars are crap since beginning, Dk gets a huge nerf (Because of the same crybabies)....and now it's time to destroy NB class too....well...if you want that we only play with sorcerer class, can remove the others from the game directly...

Damnit the low options of MMO in console....Because ESO does not look great in a future.....

Well the problem is you can't destroy one class, then leave the other 2 as is. Anyone that says sorcs were nerfed is plain wrong. They lowered damage by the same as healing. Before you say it Derra I know shields are a little less effective but sorcs are still op. Remove shield breaker and remove shield stacking.
NBs would be fine if they removed the detect potion nerf. Make it 30 seconds or something.

Try small tweaks or something.

Waiting till next year for changes through the holidays ZOS? Terrible idea. You cannot tell me doing a straight 50% damage and heal nerf takes that long. Look at your player base leaving. Tweak it now or you will not survive the winter. I promise you that. Star Wars Battlefront alone is going to hurt this game I love

LoreRiley

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

NB cloak needs to get the same threatment as sorc Streak do.. its the same type of skill that is used to get away from a fight.. so when streak got nerfed so should NB cloak nuff said

No, Sorcs escape makes them go a huge distance away sp 3-4 streaks isnt a problem for them

3-4 cloaks will not get us anywhere since we still have to walk

Cathexis

Domander wrote: »

Erudition wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.

It's troubling that players think there are counters to bolt escape.....

Gap closers do not counter bolt escape, they just let players keep up sometimes

It's very easy to nullify cloak, and multiple ways to do it.

@Domander

Wait wait wait, cloak counters operate on the exact same principle as you claim bolt counters do. They allow players to keep up. That's it.

Your just twisting the reality to suit your argument.

ToRelax

LoreRiley wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

NB cloak needs to get the same threatment as sorc Streak do.. its the same type of skill that is used to get away from a fight.. so when streak got nerfed so should NB cloak nuff said

No, Sorcs escape makes them go a huge distance away sp 3-4 streaks isnt a problem for them

3-4 cloaks will not get us anywhere since we still have to walk

With decent cost reduction but no cost reduction glyphs, 4 Bolt Escapes would cost around 18k magicka. Count 27k if the Sorc was rooted for one...

Domander

Cathexis wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Erudition wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.

It's troubling that players think there are counters to bolt escape.....

Gap closers do not counter bolt escape, they just let players keep up sometimes

It's very easy to nullify cloak, and multiple ways to do it.

@Domander

Wait wait wait, cloak counters operate on the exact same principle as you claim bolt counters do. They allow players to keep up. That's it.

Your just twisting the reality to suit your argument.

Have you ever tried to cloak in caltrops? Bolt escape does what it's supposed to do every. single. time.

How about a potion that prevents bolt escape from working? @Cathexis Do you still think the principle is the same?

Galalin

LoreRiley wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

NB cloak needs to get the same threatment as sorc Streak do.. its the same type of skill that is used to get away from a fight.. so when streak got nerfed so should NB cloak nuff said

No, Sorcs escape makes them go a huge distance away sp 3-4 streaks isnt a problem for them

3-4 cloaks will not get us anywhere since we still have to walk

That argument would be great if you were shitting big balls of light out of your butt like a sorc does.... you may have to walk but nobody sees you do it... just saying

DK SCRUB OUT

P.S. Oh yeah almost forgot.... dirty sorcs!

Ara_Valleria

JDar wrote: »

After a month of IC with a fully functional cloak, I think it's pretty obvious that if nightblades are too strong it's not because of cloak. Stamina nightblades are still dropping tons of physical damage with very little means of resistance like there is for magicka damage (harness magicka, champion system), and magicka nightblades are easily dealt with despite being able to remain invisible for protracted periods of time. @ZOS_GinaBruno please close this thread and consider how easy it is to deal physical damage in this game.

All forum QQs are converted to life force which is then absorbed by ZoS to maintain their vitality.
So nope, they wont close this thread.

#SummonTheNerfHammerWithYourQQs

Cathexis

Domander wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Erudition wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.

It's troubling that players think there are counters to bolt escape.....

Gap closers do not counter bolt escape, they just let players keep up sometimes

It's very easy to nullify cloak, and multiple ways to do it.

@Domander

Wait wait wait, cloak counters operate on the exact same principle as you claim bolt counters do. They allow players to keep up. That's it.

Your just twisting the reality to suit your argument.

Have you ever tried to cloak in caltrops? Bolt escape does what it's supposed to do every. single. time.

How about a potion that prevents bolt escape from working? @Cathexis Do you still think the principle is the same?

@Domander
You can't make the argument that a cloak counter doesn't work for bolt. Of course it isn't the same because caltrops isn't a counter for bolt. Potions also only work a proportion of the time, and you have to be carrying them, and you have to be willing to expend one, which you usually only do if the fight is going your way. Ergo, potion is redundant. It also is easy for nightblades to evade counters using cloak through npcs or caltrops by just moving out of caltrops.

Bolt escape also does not do what it is supposed to every single time. If you get stunned, caught in a series of gap closers, run off a cliff, hit a wall, take any kind of fall damage at the wrong time, fall victim to the new slow fall bug, get bombed by a dozen players before the cast registers, bolt escape fails. I can't tell you the number of times I've died after a bolt escape to damage I took before the bolt escape.

What does this illustrate? Cloak counters serve the same function as any other skill counter - the capacity to keep up with your opponent. A counter isn't a dedicated I win button.

kadar

^Except that purely speaking of the Cloak skill, it does have a bunch of "I win" buttons. They could also be called "hard counters" in the sense that they completely nullify the skill.

Yesterday in IC sewer zone chat, I made the statement: Detect pot > NB. Immediately, no fewer than 3 other players type back, "ya, except detect pots don't work when they cloak." And: "no, only AOE will pull them out of cloak."

We then had a really informative discussion about how to shut down Cloak. It is this kind of confusion and misinformation that facilitate the belief in the Cloak spamming Demi-gods of legend.

Many times, upon being countered, a NB loses all advantage and progress it's made (with it's OP cloak, I mean) by being slammed with every ability on my bar while it tries to figure out why I am still hitting it.

Cloak is strong. Whatever happens with the (sort of) promised nerf, let's keep it that way. Cause who likes watered-down skills (*cough* dragonblood*cough*).

NativeJoe

LoL you guys think the cloak is the issue? the HARD CC and the macro's, and animation cancling to the sky and back is the issue lol. Their cloak doesn't kill anything and is part of their class. The other crap I just mentioned does. I mean... many of their basic attacks hit as hard as ultimates.

Galalin

NativeJoe wrote: »

LoL you guys think the cloak is the issue? the HARD CC and the macro's, and animation cancling to the sky and back is the issue lol. Their cloak doesn't kill anything and is part of their class. The other crap I just mentioned does. I mean... many of their basic attacks hit as hard as ultimates.

You must be new here

DK SCRUB OUT

LegacyDM

Erudition wrote: »

Erudition wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.

And even though we don't know each other, we have fought many times and Ali Sabre is an honest to goodness great NB.

Lol. Curse is laughable? How many times do you cast curse then burst down a Nb trying to escape using cloak. Seems like everyone has forgotten that cloak is our only survival skill. Let's see. NB has no instant class heal, no class shield, and one of the most counter prone survival skills and now the devs are considering a nerf. cloak is not OP because as a magicka NB I have to end up spamming it just to survive. Stamina NB don't even have that luxury of trying to spam it.

TheNephilimCrow

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

I mean, that wouldn't solve the issue here. It's not something that needs to be nerf'd. You said it yourself, there are multiple ways of countering it. Why put more of a negative trait to it?

The nightblade class is all about survival. By making additions against that effect will eventually kill the class. Make it unplayable. They are already squishy as it is, aside from a few semi-tank builds you can do. Which, no one should be forced to build their characters in a way that they do not want.

The only saving grace, which, since the changes isn't much of one, is the 2 seconds of breath you can possibly get by cloaking.

If ZOS does nerf this, which, it would appear there will be, then why not give us something else? Like, while cloaked Magicka regen is lowered, but health is restored over time (similar to Rally) or even Health Regen. All these other classes get solid self heals. I haven't seen any of my skills really heal myself like Dark Exchange or Rushed Ceremony. Most of us depend on Vigor to save us.

CP5

Just want to say, people who heavily rely on cloak and think the class would be broken without it, or that nightblades only have cloak to survive, or that they need compensation for it being nerfed, have you looked out from under your cloak recently and seen how many skills the class has? Cloak is only one skill, you have others that allow you to do things no other class can, please look at them for a bit before saying the class would be ruined with a change to cloak.

Out of all the classes in game (with perhaps the exception of the rarely looked at templars) NB's have received many buffs and bug fixes and very few nerfs (of which many of these nerfs were blanket ones that hit all classes, not just NB's).

Cathexis

The_Outsider wrote: »

^Except that purely speaking of the Cloak skill, it does have a bunch of "I win" buttons. They could also be called "hard counters" in the sense that they completely nullify the skill.

Yesterday in IC sewer zone chat, I made the statement: Detect pot > NB. Immediately, no fewer than 3 other players type back, "ya, except detect pots don't work when they cloak." And: "no, only AOE will pull them out of cloak."

We then had a really informative discussion about how to shut down Cloak. It is this kind of confusion and misinformation that facilitate the belief in the Cloak spamming Demi-gods of legend.

Many times, upon being countered, a NB loses all advantage and progress it's made (with it's OP cloak, I mean) by being slammed with every ability on my bar while it tries to figure out why I am still hitting it.

Cloak is strong. Whatever happens with the (sort of) promised nerf, let's keep it that way. Cause who likes watered-down skills (*cough* dragonblood*cough*).

@The_Outsider except that if you really think about it, there is no true hard counter to any ability. An easy example is the cloak potion dilemma. A good nightblade can anicipate potions, move out of range, cloak spam through mobs and achieve safety.

kadar

@Cathexis, you're giving the hypothetical NB the benefit of the doubt here by assuming that they will "anticipate" the detect pot and therefore detect pot is not a hard counter to cloak. You can't play one side like that. If you're going to make that assumption about the NB in this hypothetical scenario, you must also assume that the player using the detect pot is doing everything in his/her power to make their pot effective.

We're once again back at cloak indeed having (multiple) hard counters--- skills that completely nullify cloak.
(Not to mention skills that are designed entirely around the concept of countering invisibility, but are not quite hard counters)

ToRelax

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Erudition wrote: »

Erudition wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.

And even though we don't know each other, we have fought many times and Ali Sabre is an honest to goodness great NB.

Lol. Curse is laughable? How many times do you cast curse then burst down a Nb trying to escape using cloak. Seems like everyone has forgotten that cloak is our only survival skill. Let's see. NB has no instant class heal, no class shield, and one of the most counter prone survival skills and now the devs are considering a nerf. cloak is not OP because as a magicka NB I have to end up spamming it just to survive. Stamina NB don't even have that luxury of trying to spam it.

Sorcs have no instant class heal, no cloak and yet a set was implemented to hardcounter their defensive skill while at the same time nerfing it. (Not to mention the set does a lot more than that...)
Do you think stamina Sorcs could spam Bolt Escape or make a lot of use out of their Ward? Just because someone doesn't use a skill to it's full potential, doesn't mean the skill is not too strong.
Why should it be a sign for a skill to not be OP when you are spamming it to survive? Do you think Shieldspamming is fine and proof that shields are balanced, too?

Cathexis

The_Outsider wrote: »

@Cathexis, you're giving the hypothetical NB the benefit of the doubt here by assuming that they will "anticipate" the detect pot and therefore detect pot is not a hard counter to cloak. You can't play one side like that. If you're going to make that assumption about the NB in this hypothetical scenario, you must also assume that the player using the detect pot is doing everything in his/her power to make their pot effective.

We're once again back at cloak indeed having (multiple) hard counters--- skills that completely nullify cloak.
(Not to mention skills that are designed entirely around the concept of countering invisibility, but are not quite hard counters)

@The_Outsider
But you see you've argued yourself into a corner because you then also have to make the assumption that the nightblade is doing everything in their power to counter that player. So both players are trying to counter each other. Welcome to combat. That doesn't mean that potions or caltrops are ever "hard counters." No skills completely nullify the effectiveness of cloak because if you compensate for those counters cloak is still functional. I have never once fought a nb that was completely incapable of avoiding caltrops, steel tornado, boundless storm, potions, or any other counter. What you are really arguing is that nightblades are incapable of avoiding being put on the defensive. If they can't at least some of the time, that is a L2P problem. As mentioned in someone else's reply, you have more abilities than cloak. You should be able to compensate for a no cloak scenario.

kadar

you then also have to make the assumption that the nightblade is doing everything in their power to counter that player. So both players are trying to counter each other.

That's exactly what I was trying to point out actually. And it's why I prefaced my original statement with "purely speaking of the Cloak skill."

Since it's an obvious given that both players are doing everything in their power to win, the only things we are left to measure are the effects that individual skills have on each other. To clarify: Caltrops/Detect pots/RML/AOE/ect. (Gap closures being an example of an advantage instead of an "I win") hard counter Cloak in the same way that dodge roll counters Wrecking Blow, or purge counters a DoT, or shield breaker hard counters a shield. These skills nullify/ignore other skills completely. No NB can ever Cloak through these counters. The only option is to flee. And since the opponent obviously will pursue, those ideas cancel each other. (Also if the NB is the aggressor, forcing him to flee is a win in and of itself).

So as to not get lost in the logic banter, my over-all goal here is to point out just how effectively cloak can be countered with the tools that we have. Also that a few of these counters are not simply slight advantages against cloak. They completely reverse the effect instantaneously. There is also an eerie similarity between the arguments of Shield Breaker vs. Shields and Things-that-break-Cloak vs. Cloak.

kadar

ToRelax wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Erudition wrote: »

Erudition wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Respectfully, it is really troubling that you don't know there are counters to Bolt Escape (good stam players are loving that ZOS thinks that I'm sure). Moreover, the counters to cloak are laughable; inner morph that reduces magicka and provides very limited radius of visibility? A pot that works once a minute (and they cloak instantly after you pop it making it useless)? Aoe? Lol unlikely you will find them that way but maybe with steel tornado radius but what if you are magicka? What has really happened here is NB's are super organised on the forums and have worked out a standard patter they have fed ZOS which is imo kind of deceptive (thats their thing after all). An honest to goodness great NB will admit there is some OP stuff happening now just as it is fair to say that sorc's were OP before the bolt nerf and the re-emphasis on health over shields from this patch.

And even though we don't know each other, we have fought many times and Ali Sabre is an honest to goodness great NB.

Lol. Curse is laughable? How many times do you cast curse then burst down a Nb trying to escape using cloak. Seems like everyone has forgotten that cloak is our only survival skill. Let's see. NB has no instant class heal, no class shield, and one of the most counter prone survival skills and now the devs are considering a nerf. cloak is not OP because as a magicka NB I have to end up spamming it just to survive. Stamina NB don't even have that luxury of trying to spam it.

Sorcs have no instant class heal, no cloak and yet a set was implemented to hardcounter their defensive skill while at the same time nerfing it. (Not to mention the set does a lot more than that...)
Do you think stamina Sorcs could spam Bolt Escape or make a lot of use out of their Ward? Just because someone doesn't use a skill to it's full potential, doesn't mean the skill is not too strong.
Why should it be a sign for a skill to not be OP when you are spamming it to survive? Do you think Shieldspamming is fine and proof that shields are balanced, too?

I think those are pretty good points @ToRelax

I really don't wanna compare Cloak to other skills, but since we all are already, I think the difference would be Effective Cloak counters vs. Effective Shield counters. Looking at it that way, it's easy to see why ZOS thought Shield Breaker was a good idea, imo.