This guild trader system is so bad.

MornaBaine

I belong to one really nice big trading guild and while they are awesome I have to say I HATE this system. Hate it like my vampire hates fire. Surely there must be a better way.

Divinius

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

ZOS won't ever be able to satisfy everyone. Some people want everything handed to them on a silver platter, be it high end gear, gold, guild trader, items, XP, AP, levels, crafting professions, skill points and armor styles.

While, some of us, understand that if you get everything you wish in an instant the game will die within a month.

This is the most ridiculous argument I've seen, and it's been made several times in this thread.

Virtually every other MMO in existence has a global AH. Many of them are very successful. And the ones that failed sure-as-heck did not fail because they had a global AH.

There are admittedly a few somewhat valid arguments against a global AH in this game. This is not one of them.

LEGENDARYYY

Divinius wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

ZOS won't ever be able to satisfy everyone. Some people want everything handed to them on a silver platter, be it high end gear, gold, guild trader, items, XP, AP, levels, crafting professions, skill points and armor styles.

While, some of us, understand that if you get everything you wish in an instant the game will die within a month.

This is the most ridiculous argument I've seen, and it's been made several times in this thread.

Virtually every other MMO in existence has a global AH. Many of them are very successful. And the ones that failed sure-as-heck did not fail because they had a global AH.

There are admittedly a few somewhat valid arguments against a global AH in this game. This is not one of them.

Who are you to tell me my points aint valid?

Where are your points? I don't see em.

Just cus you don't find the exact item you want, for the exact price you want, wherever you want in an instant doesn't make the system bad.

When you go shopping IRL you may have to check several stores to find exactly what you are looking for.

Only thing that needs improvement when it comes to trading is the UI. It's too simple. It needs to be like the AwesomeGuildStore addon, and even better. PS4/xbox users must have a hard time.

Milktray

Farorin wrote: »

I love the guild trader system, it allows for competition, bargain hunting, better sale quality, and diversity.

I think they need to increase the number of locations, and possibly even have a few single traders that can combine multiple guilds that are up for hire, or something else to add to the current system, but in general I love the current system.

I check the guilds and if i see something nice n cheap i then check the others and see what ppl are selling for .. if it's worth it buy from those selling cheap, bung on x amount and post on the other guilds ;-)

Great system but could do with a better sort/search system on console

Divinius

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

ZOS won't ever be able to satisfy everyone. Some people want everything handed to them on a silver platter, be it high end gear, gold, guild trader, items, XP, AP, levels, crafting professions, skill points and armor styles.

While, some of us, understand that if you get everything you wish in an instant the game will die within a month.

This is the most ridiculous argument I've seen, and it's been made several times in this thread.

Virtually every other MMO in existence has a global AH. Many of them are very successful. And the ones that failed sure-as-heck did not fail because they had a global AH.

There are admittedly a few somewhat valid arguments against a global AH in this game. This is not one of them.

Who are you to tell me my points aint valid?

Where are your points? I don't see em.

Just cus you don't find the exact item you want, for the exact price you want, wherever you want in an instant doesn't make the system bad.

When you go shopping IRL you may have to check several stores to find exactly what you are looking for.

Only thing that needs improvement when it comes to trading is the UI. It's too simple. It needs to be like the AwesomeGuildStore addon, and even better. PS4/xbox users must have a hard time.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make that seem personal against you, as your post was just an example of many like it that I've seen.

And actually, I have already posted several times in this thread explaining my points exactly, and addressing the very things you are referring to (I even explained why the system is far worse than real-life shopping). Feel free to read through them if you'd like.

Not being able to effectively put sellers in contact with buyers is exactly why I feel this system is bad.

Also, I don't feel that expecting the same level of convenience (which exists in virtually every other MMO) when trying to trade with other players, is in any way unreasonable.

Cherryblossom

Sallington wrote: »

The best part about he current system is that a single person can't create their own market by buying ALL of a certain material/item, and then selling it for whatever they want.

Why not, if they travel round all the traders buying said item, yes they in fact can.... the only Variation you get is in guilds without a trader. As you can only belong to 5 guilds max of 2500 people to buy off, the chances of finding what you actually want is very slim.

Prices if you look round the traders are very similar for specific items, so prices don't change much outside of these norms so the micro trading system you seem to think is there, actually isn't.

LEGENDARYYY

Divinius wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

ZOS won't ever be able to satisfy everyone. Some people want everything handed to them on a silver platter, be it high end gear, gold, guild trader, items, XP, AP, levels, crafting professions, skill points and armor styles.

While, some of us, understand that if you get everything you wish in an instant the game will die within a month.

This is the most ridiculous argument I've seen, and it's been made several times in this thread.

Virtually every other MMO in existence has a global AH. Many of them are very successful. And the ones that failed sure-as-heck did not fail because they had a global AH.

There are admittedly a few somewhat valid arguments against a global AH in this game. This is not one of them.

Who are you to tell me my points aint valid?

Where are your points? I don't see em.

Just cus you don't find the exact item you want, for the exact price you want, wherever you want in an instant doesn't make the system bad.

When you go shopping IRL you may have to check several stores to find exactly what you are looking for.

Only thing that needs improvement when it comes to trading is the UI. It's too simple. It needs to be like the AwesomeGuildStore addon, and even better. PS4/xbox users must have a hard time.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make that seem personal against you, as your post was just an example of many like it that I've seen.

And actually, I have already posted several times in this thread explaining my points exactly, and addressing the very things you are referring to (I even explained why the system is far worse than real-life shopping). Feel free to read through them if you'd like.

Not being able to effectively put sellers in contact with buyers is exactly why I feel this system is bad.

Also, I don't feel that expecting the same level of convenience (which exists in virtually every other MMO) when trying to trade with other players, is in any way unreasonable.

ya, that's where we disagree. I don't think everything should be convenient and easy. I think this system is great cus it opens up plenty of possibilities and variety.

You can buy cheap and resell for profit, you can price different based on which zones your guild traders are. The system is very dynamic and offers both high risk and low risk tactics to earn money.

An AH would be utterly boring imo.

Tandor

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork amd hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

So people want the guild trader system to be hard on the buyer so buyers are discouraged out of purchasing their stuff? Huh?

You're putting it crudely but yes, and I've explained this enough so I won't be doing so again: if it were too easy to find anything and everything you want at the store then there would be no incentive to actually go questing and Dungeon crawling and whathaveyou, this system occupies a middle ground between an auction house (which would be too easy) and no trading at all (which would be decidedly hard to trade in that instance). This system allows limited trading without letting it get out of hand, that's the whole point of them designing it this way.

And I can tell you from experience that as hard as it can be to find things you want at the traders, it's easy enough that all my things sell just fine, and every so often I hit up the traders looking for potion materials (I play a lot of PvP and don't like stopping to harvest stuff on my way to a keep).

So people are clamoring to join trade guilds with kiosks to sell items to a population that must climb walls and jump through hoops to, maybe, buy their stuff? (If the buyer doesn't give up in frustrations first.)

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this. I wonder how many businesses could stay afloat with this philosophy.

Very few, but the ones that could would make an awful lot of money.

That's the only thing you have to remember when reading people's defence of the present trading system.

That's decidedly narrow minded of you, I imagine some people support it for that reason but the rest of us would rather have no trading at all than an auction house, and the current system is better than no trading at all so it's perfectly situated in the middle ground. It could use a few tweaks perhaps but is largely good as is.

The people who want an auction house no doubt hate it, but the people who hate the idea of an auction house like it, we're coming at it from two different perspectives wanting two different things so of course we don't agree, but that's no reason to over-simplify and generalize the rationale of the people you disagree with.

It's no different to you generalising about people who don't like the present trading system and assuming they all want an auction house ! A lot of us just want a better trading system than the one we've got.

wraith808

Tandor wrote: »

It's no different to you generalising about people who don't like the present trading system and assuming they all want an auction house ! A lot of us just want a better trading system than the one we've got.

Well if that's truly the case, and they've already said that there will not be an AH, then why not workshop on the trading system we have, rather than the sole suggestion of rip it out and give an AH?

Zachy_B

The system sucks. Needs to be revamped for sure. Or AH. Either or works for me.

Cherryblossom

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

It works well enough as is that things do indeed sell, and it's not supposed to be like a real life store, if it were they would have just given us an auction house and been done with it. We're not supposed to buy anything and everything more easily than questing for it, and an auction house would make it too easy, that's all there is to it.

Read my other posts on this page and the previous page if you want any more explanation from me on this because I've repeated myself enough and it's really not that complicated at all.

I've read through a few of your arguements for keeping as is.

I would like to address them.

Things do indeed sell - correct, but I belong to 3 trading guilds all with Guild Traders and I can expressly say not everything sells, so due to this most will only put up for sale those things they can be sure will sell.

With this in mind your other point about having to do dungeons and real world stuff to get gear and things - awesome idea, I do this and have picked up bits and pieces of sets, but never a full set! To get a full set I need to buy the other bits ( I can't keep killing things hoping to get what I want, as I will over level the set I actually want!).
Now here's the problem going back to the first part, as there is very little profit from selling these low level sets, no one really adds them to the market! So I can spend an hour and not find the gloves I want or ignore an entire part of the game dynamics which you want everyone to do which is to get the things the game provides i.e. armour sets....

So this system doesn't trivalise the acquisition of loot, it actually invalidates it because the sets you pick up as you level are almost always incomplete, with no real method of aquiring it!

What is needed is a system that would actually make Loot worthwhile, a system where People would be able to search for the set at the level they want and generally find the piece's they want.

ZOS are aware that their Trading System is flawed, otherwise they would not of added the Guild Traders into the game, this is a sticky plaster currently, I would suggest that the actual economy is an incredibly important part of any MMO and currently this is failing Buyers and Sellers.

But it's obvious that there will never be an AH so it's imortant to create a System that is better than the current system.

Firstly there needs to be a method in which the whole community are involved in buying and selling; currently based on there being about 140 Guild Traders Dotted all over the place that is a maximum of 70k sellers, so if the overal population is 700k 90% of the community is excluded from Selling - this is awful no one can justify the exclusion of the majority of the community from part of the game!

Searching for Items is quite simply to much bother, this UI is still not good on PC with all the addon's, I honestly wouldn't bother on Consoles to even look! This has to be better.

The acquistion of loot sets needs to be easier to sell, so they actually become useful and worthwhile.

How would I do all of this Auction House, but I know that is not going to happen as I would assume how trading was originally set up has made this impossible which is why they ruled it out.
So what other options are there!

Less Guild Traders; but each trader sells for Multiple Guilds.
Ability to search for Armour Sets, this may even encourage Crafters to put full sets up for sale.
May be make the Traders level Specific for the Area, so if you go to a trader in the starting area Armours are level 1-15
Allow the guildless to sell 5 items at any Guild Trader, this would allow those that can't trade to trade, also raise funds for guilds as they get a commission.

BUT THE SIMPLE FACT IS THE CURRENT SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE COMMUNITY...

THIS IS A FACT, any thing that excludes the majority of the community is not working for the community.

Tandor

wraith808 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

It's no different to you generalising about people who don't like the present trading system and assuming they all want an auction house ! A lot of us just want a better trading system than the one we've got.

Well if that's truly the case, and they've already said that there will not be an AH, then why not workshop on the trading system we have, rather than the sole suggestion of rip it out and give an AH?

A lot of us have already argued over the past year for a different system rather than an auction house. I have myself said on this very thread (post #18) that I am not hooked on the idea of an auction house. I am totally against any core part of the game - such as the trading system - being locked behind guild membership but there have been ways put forward whereby the existing system could be improved to get around that restriction, e.g by the provision in each zone city of an additional trader that non-guild or unsuccessful guild members could use for selling items at a greatly increased commission rate compared to guild traders, and with the commission being shared between the guilds trading in that location.

There have also been suggestions put forward for improving the trading system for buyers, providing a central search facility for example, perhaps coupled with a "purchase and retrieve" option enabling buyers to access guild traders that are located in areas they cannot access due to level or faction restrictions, and which would enable them to have the item mailed to them at a significant additional cost compared with hoofing it to the trader and buying it there (rather like the way items purchased on EQ2's broker are cheaper if you go to the vendor's house to buy it although you can still pay the full price buying centrally at the broker if you prefer).

I have long argued that with both defenders of the trading system and its detractors wanting to see changes to it, whether by tweaking or more substantial reform, and with this topic being so regularly raised (even more so now console players are denied the opportunity to make the best of the trading system's faults through addons), it would be desirable for ZOS to lead an official discussion on how best to improve the trading system so as to open it up to all players and do away with the administrative nightmare that bedevils guildmasters every week. That discussion should be much more than "Guild Traders versus Auction House", and I would welcome it very much.

Eriquito3

I agree the guild trader system is garbage. They just need to add an auction house.

TyCobbBA365

What are people selling to get a decent amount of gold?

I'm level 45 with my only character and the only thing I sell are recipes that I have already learned. I sell a green recipe for 300 gold each. I'm working on my blacksmithing so I'm deconstructing pretty much everything that I find and I'm learning the motifs that I find.

Thymos

TyCobbBA365 wrote: »

What are people selling to get a decent amount of gold?

I'm level 45 with my only character and the only thing I sell are recipes that I have already learned. I sell a green recipe for 300 gold each. I'm working on my blacksmithing so I'm deconstructing pretty much everything that I find and I'm learning the motifs that I find.

TyCobbBA365 wrote: »

What are people selling to get a decent amount of gold?

I'm level 45 with my only character and the only thing I sell are recipes that I have already learned. I sell a green recipe for 300 gold each. I'm working on my blacksmithing so I'm deconstructing pretty much everything that I find and I'm learning the motifs that I find.

I sell just about anything. Gear that has the Intricate trait tends to sell really well, no matter the level. People often buy up blue and purple gear for cheap, so they can deconstruct it in hopes of getting Blue or Purple upgrade material. People buy raw materials for just about every craft. Certain plants sell very well for alchemists. Aspect and Potency runes sell very well, even glyphs that you pick up. Fishing bait even sells really well.

From doing provisioning writs, I often get recipes that I already know, and will sell those too.

I generally make my gold from volume, vs. having a few high costing items.

I am in 3 guilds that have guild traders. 2 are in Wayrest, and the third is in Riften, I think. I've been able to sell through all 3, and not just to people inside the guild, but through the traders.

You can see why I like the current system. I recently joined a 3rd one, because I was filling up my 60 slots, now I have 90.

amgame308_ESO

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork amd hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

So people want the guild trader system to be hard on the buyer so buyers are discouraged out of purchasing their stuff? Huh?

You're putting it crudely but yes, and I've explained this enough so I won't be doing so again: if it were too easy to find anything and everything you want at the store then there would be no incentive to actually go questing and Dungeon crawling and whathaveyou, this system occupies a middle ground between an auction house (which would be too easy) and no trading at all (which would be decidedly hard to trade in that instance). This system allows limited trading without letting it get out of hand, that's the whole point of them designing it this way.

And I can tell you from experience that as hard as it can be to find things you want at the traders, it's easy enough that all my things sell just fine, and every so often I hit up the traders looking for potion materials (I play a lot of PvP and don't like stopping to harvest stuff on my way to a keep).

So people are clamoring to join trade guilds with kiosks to sell items to a population that must climb walls and jump through hoops to, maybe, buy their stuff? (If the buyer doesn't give up in frustrations first.)

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this. I wonder how many businesses could stay afloat with this philosophy.

Trading guilds are business in ESO, you don't have to wonder you have examples of very successful business right there in game. At least you pointed out the issue, you'll be able to wrap your head around it in time. Once you do, you'll see the beauty of it and appreciate what this unique economy does for the game.

amgame308_ESO

Pentegarn wrote: »

Worst system I've ever experienced. I purchased a couple of racial motifs conveniently placed on a DF trader (don't remember the guild name and really couldn't care less) when I first began playing this game. Hell, I didn't even realize it WAS a guild trader. I just thought I was using the AH. Then I noticed the different traders, each with their own items and prices. I haven't used a guild trader since, and probably never will.

It's not worth it to me to waste my game time, traveling all over Tamriel, checking trader after trader. It's a boring waste of time. I'd just as soon find/earn what I want myself, or buy it from a seller in the zone chat.

Others may like this system, to each their own. But I don't use it. I'll take the typical, run-of-the-mill, public AH 1,000 times over, any day of the week over the guild trader system ESO uses. There may be worse systems out there in other games. But of the string of MMO's I've played since EQ, ESO has the worst system I've seen to date. Entirely my opinion of course, the there it is.

Mission accomplished, you actually spend time experiencing the content rather than one stop shopping for all your gear. In my opinion this is the best economic system of any game I've ever played. Creates competition between econmic minded players, controls inflation, discourages gold sellers, and allows for shopping for a good deal on items. Sure i have to port around and shop at different stores but that is about the only drawback. I wrapped my head around the system and make plenty of gold selling items.

Divinius

Tandor wrote: »

I have long argued that with both defenders of the trading system and its detractors wanting to see changes to it, whether by tweaking or more substantial reform, and with this topic being so regularly raised (even more so now console players are denied the opportunity to make the best of the trading system's faults through addons), it would be desirable for ZOS to lead an official discussion on how best to improve the trading system so as to open it up to all players and do away with the administrative nightmare that bedevils guildmasters every week. That discussion should be much more than "Guild Traders versus Auction House", and I would welcome it very much.

Excellent suggestion! I'll even start us off!

Let's assume that ZOS will never add an actual Auction House. Most players would still agree that the existing system has some room for improvement, so I'll focus on ideas to improve the current system, instead of just asking for a global AH. Here's my proposed plan:

Move all 140 (or however many there are) Guild Trader NPCs in the game into one large separate zone. We'll call it "The Marketplace" or something. Each of the three factions will have their own copy of this zone, but they will all access the same traders (as it is now with Guild Traders). This prevents some traders from having vastly more desirable locations than others, and makes it much less annoying for buyers, as they can shop around in one big place, instead of having to travel across the entirety of Tamriel.

Next, change the bidding on Guild Traders NPCs such that guilds no longer have to bid on a specific trader, they just bid to get ANY trader. Traders are then assigned in order, by bid magnitude. Highest bids get Trader NPCs near the zone-in point of The Marketplace, while the lower bids get Traders that are placed further back.

Those two things would prevent Guilds being locked out of a trader entirely, and make the system far less prone to abuse. By having them all in the same basic area, it also significantly decreases the difference between the most expensive and least expensive trader locations (in addition to the convenience for buyers as already mentioned).


But we can do more to improve the system. After all given the limited number of Guild traders, there's still going to be a lot of players that won't be in a guild that can have a trader at all. So let's see what else we can improve:

Split player guilds into two types. Trading guilds, and Social guilds. Players can still be in up to 5 guilds, but they are limited to only being in ONE Trading guild.

To compensate for players only being allowed into one trade guild instead of 5, the maximum number of players allowed in the new trade-specific guilds will be increased by an order of magnitude. Trade Guilds will cap out at 5000 members instead of 500 (Social guilds can stay at 500).

Given the limited number of Guild Trader NPCs available, this will increase the number of players that can have access to them by 10x (and effectively closer to 50x, since players can no longer be in more than one trade guild).


So now we have 10 to 50 times more people that have access to a guild trader to sell their stuff (which may actually be enough for all active players on a server), and all guild traders are in the same easy-to-reach location. Buying and selling just became far simpler and more convenient, and using and managing guild traders aren't nearly the hassle they used to be.

But wait, we can go ever further! Players still have to walk to each of the 140 guild traders in The Marketplace to search for items they want. So how about we add a series of special bulletin boards (all identical), in the front of The Marketplace that can be accessed to do automatic custom searches of the wares on ALL the guild traders. It would show up which traders had the items, and at what price, so you could just go to that trader and buy it!

Further refinements could include the ability for an the bulletin board to send a request directly to the trader for you, take your money, and have the item mailed to you, for a small additional fee.

Now the one drawback I see here is that The Marketplace and the bulletin boards in front would be VERY busy places. So perhaps we should put copies of the bulletin boards in other zones. Say, one in each major city? Then players could just go to the nearest Marketplace bulletin board and do their item searches and purchase requests there.


There we go! I think the existing system has now been modified to be almost perfect. And see, we didn't need a global AH at all. We have a "Remotely Accessable Trade Guild Marketplace"! We can call it the RATGM.

Tholian1

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork amd hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

So people want the guild trader system to be hard on the buyer so buyers are discouraged out of purchasing their stuff? Huh?

You're putting it crudely but yes, and I've explained this enough so I won't be doing so again: if it were too easy to find anything and everything you want at the store then there would be no incentive to actually go questing and Dungeon crawling and whathaveyou, this system occupies a middle ground between an auction house (which would be too easy) and no trading at all (which would be decidedly hard to trade in that instance). This system allows limited trading without letting it get out of hand, that's the whole point of them designing it this way.

And I can tell you from experience that as hard as it can be to find things you want at the traders, it's easy enough that all my things sell just fine, and every so often I hit up the traders looking for potion materials (I play a lot of PvP and don't like stopping to harvest stuff on my way to a keep).

So people are clamoring to join trade guilds with kiosks to sell items to a population that must climb walls and jump through hoops to, maybe, buy their stuff? (If the buyer doesn't give up in frustrations first.)

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this. I wonder how many businesses could stay afloat with this philosophy.

Trading guilds are business in ESO, you don't have to wonder you have examples of very successful business right there in game. At least you pointed out the issue, you'll be able to wrap your head around it in time. Once you do, you'll see the beauty of it and appreciate what this unique economy does for the game.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm glad you love the system. I don't, and find it frustrating to work with. I would like to see some buyer friendly modifications made to it.

Tandor

Divinius wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I have long argued that with both defenders of the trading system and its detractors wanting to see changes to it, whether by tweaking or more substantial reform, and with this topic being so regularly raised (even more so now console players are denied the opportunity to make the best of the trading system's faults through addons), it would be desirable for ZOS to lead an official discussion on how best to improve the trading system so as to open it up to all players and do away with the administrative nightmare that bedevils guildmasters every week. That discussion should be much more than "Guild Traders versus Auction House", and I would welcome it very much.

Excellent suggestion! I'll even start us off!

You obviously didn't read the most important aspect of the suggestion !

It's high time ZOS started an official discussion on this. That would have various benefits, not least that it would indicate that they considered the subject open to discussion. Their complete silence on the future of a system that is either totally broken or at least in need of some changes, depending on your point of view, must be extremely frustrating to an awful lot of players.

As for your suggested replacement system, it sounds very reminiscent of EQ's Bazaar. Let's hope that if it was adopted here it would be easier to navigate!

Paulhewhewria

This system is a mixed bag I remember at the time we got it many were just happy that we got something that looked like a trade system,but now with all the guilds and trades/things going on In-Game we need something more refined if you ask me be it a AH or something different.

DenMoria

tist wrote: »

Yeah I have hordes of V14 set gear form dolmens, dungeons etc I can't even sell. Trading system is a complete joke.

Can't only other VR14's wear it? I mean, honestly, I'm level 9 or 10 right now (no, not VR, just 9 or 10). I would have no use for such gear that I couldn't even wear.

Sorry. It may sound like a stupid question, but I was under the impression that just about everything was level based.

Honestly though, can there really be that many VR14's out there that don't already have their own gear?

DenMoria

I think I'll just stick with my vendors and contributing to my Guild Bank.

I haven't the patience to do all that searching and haggling (even in real life), so I guess I'll never get any use out of the Trade Houses.

I hope my small contributions to the Guild Bank are okay though. Just turned in a Purple Dwemer Style manual (I had two) and hope somebody gets some use out of it.

amgame308_ESO

Tandor wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I have long argued that with both defenders of the trading system and its detractors wanting to see changes to it, whether by tweaking or more substantial reform, and with this topic being so regularly raised (even more so now console players are denied the opportunity to make the best of the trading system's faults through addons), it would be desirable for ZOS to lead an official discussion on how best to improve the trading system so as to open it up to all players and do away with the administrative nightmare that bedevils guildmasters every week. That discussion should be much more than "Guild Traders versus Auction House", and I would welcome it very much.

Excellent suggestion! I'll even start us off!

You obviously didn't read the most important aspect of the suggestion !

It's high time ZOS started an official discussion on this. That would have various benefits, not least that it would indicate that they considered the subject open to discussion. Their complete silence on the future of a system that is either totally broken or at least in need of some changes, depending on your point of view, must be extremely frustrating to an awful lot of players.

As for your suggested replacement system, it sounds very reminiscent of EQ's Bazaar. Let's hope that if it was adopted here it would be easier to navigate!

There is really nothing to be discussed. The system works and it works very well if you understand how to use it. I make about a million a month in gold and have no problems finding anything I need. The system doesn't need to be replaced, this isn't your father's auction house. The system isn't broken it is lack of knowledge and understanding how to get it to work for players that have admitted on this thread they can't wrap their head around it.

The system is not hard to navigate, it is not hard to buy things and it is not hard to sell things. There are plenty of players that use this system effectively and attempting to make demands wit faux outage for a system that has fundamentally improved the MMO economy isn't going to get you anywhere.

Get over it. This system is well thought out and the pluses far out weigh any inconvience. You want a 2 decades old MMO econmic system there are other choices out there.

L2economy.

Atricios

When the winning bid on a trader is 1,000,000+, you cannot say that it isn't working.

Now fast forward to new areas being added with traders there & perhaps additional traders in existing areas and it seems to be just fine.

Unless of course you're a milk drinker that is homesick for WoW.

Divinius

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

There is really nothing to be discussed. The system works and it works very well if you understand how to use it. I make about a million a month in gold and have no problems finding anything I need. The system doesn't need to be replaced, this isn't your father's auction house. The system isn't broken it is lack of knowledge and understanding how to get it to work for players that have admitted on this thread they can't wrap their head around it.

The system is not hard to navigate, it is not hard to buy things and it is not hard to sell things. There are plenty of players that use this system effectively and attempting to make demands wit faux outage for a system that has fundamentally improved the MMO economy isn't going to get you anywhere.

Get over it. This system is well thought out and the pluses far out weigh any inconvience. You want a 2 decades old MMO econmic system there are other choices out there.

L2economy.

Most of the things you just said are essentially patently untrue. If it's so easy for you to find stuff, then please find me my few missing recipes.

Tandor

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I have long argued that with both defenders of the trading system and its detractors wanting to see changes to it, whether by tweaking or more substantial reform, and with this topic being so regularly raised (even more so now console players are denied the opportunity to make the best of the trading system's faults through addons), it would be desirable for ZOS to lead an official discussion on how best to improve the trading system so as to open it up to all players and do away with the administrative nightmare that bedevils guildmasters every week. That discussion should be much more than "Guild Traders versus Auction House", and I would welcome it very much.

Excellent suggestion! I'll even start us off!

You obviously didn't read the most important aspect of the suggestion !

It's high time ZOS started an official discussion on this. That would have various benefits, not least that it would indicate that they considered the subject open to discussion. Their complete silence on the future of a system that is either totally broken or at least in need of some changes, depending on your point of view, must be extremely frustrating to an awful lot of players.

As for your suggested replacement system, it sounds very reminiscent of EQ's Bazaar. Let's hope that if it was adopted here it would be easier to navigate!

There is really nothing to be discussed. The system works and it works very well if you understand how to use it. I make about a million a month in gold and have no problems finding anything I need. The system doesn't need to be replaced, this isn't your father's auction house. The system isn't broken it is lack of knowledge and understanding how to get it to work for players that have admitted on this thread they can't wrap their head around it.

The system is not hard to navigate, it is not hard to buy things and it is not hard to sell things. There are plenty of players that use this system effectively and attempting to make demands wit faux outage for a system that has fundamentally improved the MMO economy isn't going to get you anywhere.

Get over it. This system is well thought out and the pluses far out weigh any inconvience. You want a 2 decades old MMO econmic system there are other choices out there.

L2economy.

The system is indeed working well for those making a million gold a month out of it.

Thanks for supporting my case. You put the argument for reform very well.

Elsonso

Divinius wrote: »

Most of the things you just said are essentially patently untrue. If it's so easy for you to find stuff, then please find me my few missing recipes.

I am leveling a provisioner on the PC NA server right now. This character's "home" is in Rawl'kha, and has been since they were old enough to walk there. There is absolutely no recipe that has ever been needed for a writ that I have had to seriously hunt for. The same applies to any crafting material for writs that I do not have on hand, which is, admittedly, not very many. If you have a character that can get there, try it and see.

I also turn around and put recipes that I know into my guild store for others. Around half of the recipes that I come across right now are known to me, and that number is steadily increasing. All of those go back into the market for others.

Now, there are things that are problems with the kiosks. I have been trying to suggest things that seem to fit into the general direction that ZOS is going. I don't think trying to convince them to do a Global Auction house is worth the effort. My improvement list looks like this:

• Keyword searches on PC and Console should be added as part of the base game.
• They should show more items on the screen, especially on the console.
• We should be able to save searches between kiosks, even if it is just the last search.
• We should be able to find out where a specific guild has a kiosk
• The number of kiosks available should reflect the demand for kiosks.

Eriquito3

On consoles you can literally find nothing in the guild traders.

The system is trash

wraith808

Tandor wrote: »

You obviously didn't read the most important aspect of the suggestion !

It's high time ZOS started an official discussion on this. That would have various benefits, not least that it would indicate that they considered the subject open to discussion. Their complete silence on the future of a system that is either totally broken or at least in need of some changes, depending on your point of view, must be extremely frustrating to an awful lot of players.

As for your suggested replacement system, it sounds very reminiscent of EQ's Bazaar. Let's hope that if it was adopted here it would be easier to navigate!

Why does ZOS have to start an official discussion? Start it unofficially, and put your ideas in it an help to create discussion. If it's really a big deal and they're interested, it will become the location and will catch their attention. It's been done before.