This guild trader system is so bad.

Lucius_Aelius

Divinius wrote: »

Sykis wrote: »

It's no different then going to the store now. If you shop for speed then prepare to spend more. If you shop for the best price expect it to take longer. That's how I see it. It's like shopping not 15 years ago before everything had a web site or Amazon.

Sorry, but it is nothing like shopping at real-life stores, now or 15 years ago. In the real world, if I want to buy shoes, I can go to a show store. If I want food, I go to a grocery store. Whatever I want, I already know where to go to find it. In Tamriel, every store is a tiny department store that can sell everything, but only ever actually has a completely random and very select few items at any given time. If I want a pair of shoes, I can't just go to the nearest shoe store. I have to go to 50 stores, hoping one of them has any shoes, and if they do, that they have anything close to my size.

Also, the real world has an actual functional economy. Multiple stores might sell shoes at slightly different prices, but you know there's no chance of one store selling a pair of shoes for $5 while another is selling the exact same shoes for $1000. In this game, however, without addons that track prices for you, if you want to make sure you aren't ridiculously overpaying for something, you have to go to multiple stores to check prices, since there is no stable economy. (As an aside, that's my favorite argument to see against a global AH -- that it will "ruin the economy." Here's a hint: this game has no economy to ruin.)

Sausage wrote: »

I love how people spend hours grinding CPs, especially whining wheres new concent, but when they have to spend 15min with Auction house, it leads to ragequit.

When I'm grinding CPs, I know I'm spending my time in a valuable way, making progress toward something. When I'm searching 30 guild traders for the one recipe I'm missing, and don't find it, then I just wasted an hour or more and accomplished exactly nothing. See the huge difference there?

{edited for typos}

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

Economy is all about trading and being able to get things you want or need in exchange for things you have, with many people trading amongst each other and establishing a framework to conduct their affairs, but unlike in real life we dont want an economy where you can buy anything you want for cheap because that would make it easier to acquire things in the store than by actually playing the game, and if that happened the economy and this game altogether would be completely broken. It's not supposed to be easy to find what you want at the guild traders, that's the whole point of having this system.

Playing the game and getting things yourself is supposed to be the primary way of acquiring things, buying and selling at guild traders is just an extra that lets you get something in return for things you have too much of as well as potentially being able to buy something you need to round out your set or make some potions or whatever. This system isn't supposed to be perfect, it's trying to occupy the middle ground between an auction house and having no trading at all, the intent being to allow limited trading without having it get too crazy with everything anyone could ever want always available for low prices at every store.

Lucius_Aelius

k2blader wrote: »

Agree, the guild trader system is the pits.

The only people you see defending it are those who most benefit from it, i.e. folks in monopolistic trading guilds.

There should be any easy way for anyone to sell items to the general public without having to join a trade guild that always has a guild trader in Rawlkha and/or Eldenroot.

There's also two different conversations going on here, one is about buying and the other about selling. The only good suggestions I've heard for improving buying is to have a search feature at the store while you're talking to any given trader that lets you search that one trader's inventory, apart from that I think the buying system is perfect as is.

Selling is another issue altogether, and I agree there need to be changes to help sellers, like extra guild traders in the world and letting people who aren't in the guild sell things in the store for an extra premium paid to the guild from your profits (and an extra listing fee perhaps).

Of course everyone should have the ability to sell their stuff, but many people seem to think that buying is supposed to be easy and you shouldn't have to schlep around to every trader trying to find something you want. It's not supposed to be easy to find what you want at the store, if it were then you might as well just farm gold and buy everything you could ever want or need. Playing the game and getting things yourself is supposed to be your primary way of acquiring things, the guild stores are there as an extra to let you buy a few select items you haven't gotten enough of on your own, while also selling things you don't need so all that extra stuff in your inventory doesn't go to waste.

Divinius

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Lucius_Aelius

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away (or at least faster than questing) and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork and hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

Tholian1

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork amd hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

So people want the guild trader system to be hard on the buyer so buyers are discouraged out of purchasing their stuff? Huh?

Lucius_Aelius

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork amd hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

So people want the guild trader system to be hard on the buyer so buyers are discouraged out of purchasing their stuff? Huh?

You're putting it crudely but yes, and I've explained this enough so I won't be doing so again: if it were too easy to find anything and everything you want at the store then there would be no incentive to actually go questing and Dungeon crawling and whathaveyou, this system occupies a middle ground between an auction house (which would be too easy) and no trading at all (which would be decidedly hard to trade in that instance). This system allows limited trading without letting it get out of hand, that's the whole point of them designing it this way.

And I can tell you from experience that as hard as it can be to find things you want at the traders, it's easy enough that all my things sell just fine, and every so often I hit up the traders looking for potion materials (I play a lot of PvP and don't like stopping to harvest stuff on my way to a keep).

Tholian1

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork amd hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

So people want the guild trader system to be hard on the buyer so buyers are discouraged out of purchasing their stuff? Huh?

You're putting it crudely but yes, and I've explained this enough so I won't be doing so again: if it were too easy to find anything and everything you want at the store then there would be no incentive to actually go questing and Dungeon crawling and whathaveyou, this system occupies a middle ground between an auction house (which would be too easy) and no trading at all (which would be decidedly hard to trade in that instance). This system allows limited trading without letting it get out of hand, that's the whole point of them designing it this way.

And I can tell you from experience that as hard as it can be to find things you want at the traders, it's easy enough that all my things sell just fine, and every so often I hit up the traders looking for potion materials (I play a lot of PvP and don't like stopping to harvest stuff on my way to a keep).

So people are clamoring to join trade guilds with kiosks to sell items to a population that must climb walls and jump through hoops to, maybe, buy their stuff? (If the buyer doesn't give up in frustrations first.)

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this. I wonder how many businesses could stay afloat with this philosophy.

david.haypreub18_ESO

I was willing to give this guild system a try, and did... but I have to say I would much prefer a global auction house.

Trying to find anything on the consoles is even worse than on PC.

It was a good experiment, but it has failed IMHO. Just give us a global auction house already.

MrSuplex

The current system is a joke and I just do not understand how anyone with a brain can support it.

Kavatchian

QueenAyrenn wrote: »

Bids for some traders are getting close to one million. That is insane. Without a good guild trader, nobody can compete with those numbers, and it's becoming impossible to get a good guild trader.

Is there any word yet on when we'll finally get an auction house? This system is a headache, and a hassle.

I AGREE! The only way I've been able to get my guild a trader is by claiming a mine or log camp in PVP. Not like it makes much of a difference as no one even uses those as stores.

The Guild Traders have become a monopoly to the big trading companies like East Empire Trade Company who always get the same spot. Just sucks really.

Lucius_Aelius

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork amd hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

So people want the guild trader system to be hard on the buyer so buyers are discouraged out of purchasing their stuff? Huh?

You're putting it crudely but yes, and I've explained this enough so I won't be doing so again: if it were too easy to find anything and everything you want at the store then there would be no incentive to actually go questing and Dungeon crawling and whathaveyou, this system occupies a middle ground between an auction house (which would be too easy) and no trading at all (which would be decidedly hard to trade in that instance). This system allows limited trading without letting it get out of hand, that's the whole point of them designing it this way.

And I can tell you from experience that as hard as it can be to find things you want at the traders, it's easy enough that all my things sell just fine, and every so often I hit up the traders looking for potion materials (I play a lot of PvP and don't like stopping to harvest stuff on my way to a keep).

So people are clamoring to join trade guilds with kiosks to sell items to a population that must climb walls and jump through hoops to, maybe, buy their stuff? (If the buyer doesn't give up in frustrations first.)

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this. I wonder how many businesses could stay afloat with this philosophy.

It works well enough as is that things do indeed sell, and it's not supposed to be like a real life store, if it were they would have just given us an auction house and been done with it. We're not supposed to buy anything and everything more easily than questing for it, and an auction house would make it too easy, that's all there is to it.

Read my other posts on this page and the previous page if you want any more explanation from me on this because I've repeated myself enough and it's really not that complicated at all.

mwd419_ESO

It's really the worst. WTB auction house.

Tholian1

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork amd hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

So people want the guild trader system to be hard on the buyer so buyers are discouraged out of purchasing their stuff? Huh?

You're putting it crudely but yes, and I've explained this enough so I won't be doing so again: if it were too easy to find anything and everything you want at the store then there would be no incentive to actually go questing and Dungeon crawling and whathaveyou, this system occupies a middle ground between an auction house (which would be too easy) and no trading at all (which would be decidedly hard to trade in that instance). This system allows limited trading without letting it get out of hand, that's the whole point of them designing it this way.

And I can tell you from experience that as hard as it can be to find things you want at the traders, it's easy enough that all my things sell just fine, and every so often I hit up the traders looking for potion materials (I play a lot of PvP and don't like stopping to harvest stuff on my way to a keep).

So people are clamoring to join trade guilds with kiosks to sell items to a population that must climb walls and jump through hoops to, maybe, buy their stuff? (If the buyer doesn't give up in frustrations first.)

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this. I wonder how many businesses could stay afloat with this philosophy.

It works well enough as is that things do indeed sell, and it's not supposed to be like a real life store, if it were they would have just given us an auction house and been done with it. We're not supposed to buy anything and everything more easily than questing for it, and an auction house would make itvtoo easy, that's all there is to it.

Read my other posts on this page and the previous page if you want any more explanation from me on this because I've repeated myself enough and it's really not that complicated at all.

No need to repeat yourself. You can't really make any sense out of senselessness. I for one am getting a headache even trying.

k2blader

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork amd hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

So people want the guild trader system to be hard on the buyer so buyers are discouraged out of purchasing their stuff? Huh?

You're putting it crudely but yes, and I've explained this enough so I won't be doing so again: if it were too easy to find anything and everything you want at the store then there would be no incentive to actually go questing and Dungeon crawling and whathaveyou, this system occupies a middle ground between an auction house (which would be too easy) and no trading at all (which would be decidedly hard to trade in that instance). This system allows limited trading without letting it get out of hand, that's the whole point of them designing it this way.

And I can tell you from experience that as hard as it can be to find things you want at the traders, it's easy enough that all my things sell just fine, and every so often I hit up the traders looking for potion materials (I play a lot of PvP and don't like stopping to harvest stuff on my way to a keep).

So people are clamoring to join trade guilds with kiosks to sell items to a population that must climb walls and jump through hoops to, maybe, buy their stuff? (If the buyer doesn't give up in frustrations first.)

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this. I wonder how many businesses could stay afloat with this philosophy.

I saw a decent trade guild (one that usually has a guild trader) advertising in zone that they were recruiting. I whispered the person for an invite, he was nice but went into a spiel describing all I would need to do to stay in the guild-- i.e. how much I'd need to sell per week, etc. I was like, "Oh, no thanks then," because I didn't know it would come with such strings. I don't play the game to "sell enough stuff" to be in a trading guild.

Lucius_Aelius

MrSuplex wrote: »

The current system is a joke and I just do not understand how anyone with a brain can support it.

I think the issue here is that some people just want an auction house and nothing less is good enough, myself and others meanwhile would rather not have any trading at all than have an auction house, for us this system is great because it allows limited trading without letting it get out of hand and make playing the game to acquire things pointless. We're coming at this issue from two different sides looking for two different things, I'm hardly surprised we don't agree.

Lucius_Aelius

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork amd hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

So people want the guild trader system to be hard on the buyer so buyers are discouraged out of purchasing their stuff? Huh?

You're putting it crudely but yes, and I've explained this enough so I won't be doing so again: if it were too easy to find anything and everything you want at the store then there would be no incentive to actually go questing and Dungeon crawling and whathaveyou, this system occupies a middle ground between an auction house (which would be too easy) and no trading at all (which would be decidedly hard to trade in that instance). This system allows limited trading without letting it get out of hand, that's the whole point of them designing it this way.

And I can tell you from experience that as hard as it can be to find things you want at the traders, it's easy enough that all my things sell just fine, and every so often I hit up the traders looking for potion materials (I play a lot of PvP and don't like stopping to harvest stuff on my way to a keep).

So people are clamoring to join trade guilds with kiosks to sell items to a population that must climb walls and jump through hoops to, maybe, buy their stuff? (If the buyer doesn't give up in frustrations first.)

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this. I wonder how many businesses could stay afloat with this philosophy.

It works well enough as is that things do indeed sell, and it's not supposed to be like a real life store, if it were they would have just given us an auction house and been done with it. We're not supposed to buy anything and everything more easily than questing for it, and an auction house would make itvtoo easy, that's all there is to it.

Read my other posts on this page and the previous page if you want any more explanation from me on this because I've repeated myself enough and it's really not that complicated at all.

No need to repeat yourself. You can't really make any sense out of senselessness. I for one am getting a headache even trying.

Lol, it makes perfect sense in the context of the game, you're just not thinking about it correctly on some level, and I don't have the inclination to sit here all day and enlighten you.

Divinius

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it.

OK, thanks. Just wanted to make sure I understood.

rb2001

It's atrocious. At the very least, your last selection matrix should remain as you hop from trader to trader.

Lucius_Aelius

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it.

OK, thanks. Just wanted to make sure I understood.

Glad I could help (sarcasm aside).

Divinius

rb2001 wrote: »

It's atrocious. At the very least, your last selection matrix should remain as you hop from trader to trader.

If you are on PC, get the Awesome Guild Store addon. It's amazing.

If you are on console... well, god help you.

Tandor

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork amd hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

So people want the guild trader system to be hard on the buyer so buyers are discouraged out of purchasing their stuff? Huh?

You're putting it crudely but yes, and I've explained this enough so I won't be doing so again: if it were too easy to find anything and everything you want at the store then there would be no incentive to actually go questing and Dungeon crawling and whathaveyou, this system occupies a middle ground between an auction house (which would be too easy) and no trading at all (which would be decidedly hard to trade in that instance). This system allows limited trading without letting it get out of hand, that's the whole point of them designing it this way.

And I can tell you from experience that as hard as it can be to find things you want at the traders, it's easy enough that all my things sell just fine, and every so often I hit up the traders looking for potion materials (I play a lot of PvP and don't like stopping to harvest stuff on my way to a keep).

So people are clamoring to join trade guilds with kiosks to sell items to a population that must climb walls and jump through hoops to, maybe, buy their stuff? (If the buyer doesn't give up in frustrations first.)

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this. I wonder how many businesses could stay afloat with this philosophy.

Very few, but the ones that could would make an awful lot of money.

That's the only thing you have to remember when reading people's defence of the present trading system.

Lucius_Aelius

Tandor wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I don't think you know what an economy is if you don't think this game has one, because that's just nonsense, just because the economy is chaotic and rapidly changing doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, and yes an auction house would completely ruin the game's economy.

OK... So the game does have an economy. It's "chaotic and rapidly changing" which you somehow equate to "good."

Adding an AH would stabilize it significantly, which you equate to "ruining it."

Does that about sum it up?

Yep, that's about it. If you had things too readily available for cheap at the store then it would be easier to buy anything and everything you could ever want or need without actually playing the game to acquire it (apart from farming gold, which is easy and boring). That would effectively render most of the game pointless to play. You're supposed to actually go do quests or dungeons or AvA or whatever to acquire things, the guild stores are just there for extras, both selling extra things of yours and buying a few things you're missing, not buying entire sets of armor and weapons and all that without acquiring any yourself.

It's not supposed to be easier to get anything and everything at the store than by playing the game, and if it were it would be broken and boring. A central auction house would have way too much of everything in one place for a cheap price, and that would profoundly ruin this game's economy. Why go quest for something when you can farm gold for an hour and just buy it at the auction house?

At least this way if you want to buy something you have to go to all the traders and browse their inventories individually to see if they have it, and even if they do it'll probably be overpriced, which means if you really want to take the easy path and buy something instead of questing and earning it yourself then you'll at least have to do some work to get it. I for one love that the traders are all scattered, it makes it less likely that you'll go to them for every little thing just because it takes so long to do, and as such encourages you to actually play the game (which is more fun) to get what you want. And if you really need something right away and don't want to go look for it in the wild, you can put in some legwork amd hit up the traders, which is better than having no trading at all by a longshot and doesnt ruin the economy by its existence.

So people want the guild trader system to be hard on the buyer so buyers are discouraged out of purchasing their stuff? Huh?

You're putting it crudely but yes, and I've explained this enough so I won't be doing so again: if it were too easy to find anything and everything you want at the store then there would be no incentive to actually go questing and Dungeon crawling and whathaveyou, this system occupies a middle ground between an auction house (which would be too easy) and no trading at all (which would be decidedly hard to trade in that instance). This system allows limited trading without letting it get out of hand, that's the whole point of them designing it this way.

And I can tell you from experience that as hard as it can be to find things you want at the traders, it's easy enough that all my things sell just fine, and every so often I hit up the traders looking for potion materials (I play a lot of PvP and don't like stopping to harvest stuff on my way to a keep).

So people are clamoring to join trade guilds with kiosks to sell items to a population that must climb walls and jump through hoops to, maybe, buy their stuff? (If the buyer doesn't give up in frustrations first.)

Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this. I wonder how many businesses could stay afloat with this philosophy.

Very few, but the ones that could would make an awful lot of money.

That's the only thing you have to remember when reading people's defence of the present trading system.

That's decidedly narrow minded of you, I imagine some people support it for that reason but the rest of us would rather have no trading at all than an auction house, and the current system is better than no trading at all so it's perfectly situated in the middle ground. It could use a few tweaks perhaps but is largely good as is.

The people who want an auction house no doubt hate it, but the people who hate the idea of an auction house like it, we're coming at it from two different perspectives wanting two different things so of course we don't agree, but that's no reason to over-simplify and generalize the rationale of the people you disagree with.

Korah_Eaglecry

We already have a ton of Trader Locations. How many more locations are buyers going to need to shop to get what they want?

Its time for a real AH to be set up. Just set it up to look like a bazaar with numerous NPC Traders that players can talk too.

Chillic

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

This is the case for playing the game, not for buying goods. If I want realism, I'll go to Target. I want to spend the time I have to play a game to actually play a game. There is a reason they don't have something in their trailer like "Embark on an epic journey to find common materials". I don't care if its an AH or the current system is improved but what we have now is trash.

I think you're missing the point here, playing the game is how you're supposed to get your primary loot, trading and buying from guild traders are just extras, and they're not supposed to be a better source for things than playing the game and getting them yourself without buying them.

The whole point of not having an auction house is that it would be easier to get anything you'd ever need from it than actually playing the game, and that's not what the Developers or most of us want. Having the guild traders isn't supposed to be a convenient way to acquire things, it's just better than having nothing at all because at least this way there is some centralized buying and selling of extra loot greater than zero to help mitigate RNG, if you've got to much of something you don't need you can sell it and get something for it you do need (gold), and if you need something you haven't gotten enough of you can check the traders to see if they have what you want.

You're not guaranteed to find what you want but that's the point, if you were guaranteed to find anything you ever wanted at the store you'd never have to play the game to acquire anything, aside from farming for gold of course but this game would be boring (and broken) as hell if all you had to do was farm gold to get anything you'd ever want or need.

And I for one love that you have to do some legwork in order to find things, again otherwise it would just be too easy and you might as well have an auction house. It's not a bug or mistake you're complaining about, it's a feature, and I (along with many others) think it's an excellent system for occupying the middle ground between an auction house and having no trading at all. Being able to search the inventory of any single guild trader while you're talking to him would be a nice and realistic feature, like asking a store owner in real life if he has such and such, but any other features to make finding things easier I've heard suggested would only hurt the game and break lore/realism, which would compromise immersion.

And your analogy about Target is nonsense, Target would be a perfect place to go where you're pretty much guaranteed to find what you want for a fair price, and that's exactly what this system isn't and what it's not at all trying to be. Playing the game and getting your own loot is how you're supposed to get most of your stuff, buying from guild traders is just extra and isn't supposed to be easier than getting your things by playing the game.

As for selling issues, I agree that some extra guild traders in the world would be helpful so more guilds can have stores to sell from (and cut down on excessive bidding), and I also like the idea I heard suggested that people outside of the guild should still be able to sell in the store for an added premium to the guild taken out of your profits. It's only fair that everyone has a chance to sell their excess items, but as far as buyers are concerned I think this system is in a good place and doesn't need any tweaking, it's fine as is and certainly isn't garbage, you only think that because you want it to be something it isn't and was never trying to be.

Oh no, I got the point. I PVP and really only PVP. Unless players start putting runes in their ass and dropping them when kicked, I am stuck with a *** poor excuse of a trade system. Sorry, but I have spent the last 25 minutes looking around for runes to craft a friend some stuff cause he is just starting the game. Yes, this is what I want to pay for and spend my time doing... more please. If you think my Target comment was actually comparing the game, you have issues. One is reality, one fantasy. My fantasy is not shopping. But just to clue you in on Target. I took my daughter there to get some shorts for Back to School shopping... didn't have ***, so yes, it's just like ESO

Blade_07

QueenAyrenn wrote: »

Bids for some traders are getting close to one million. That is insane. Without a good guild trader, nobody can compete with those numbers, and it's becoming impossible to get a good guild trader.

Is there any word yet on when we'll finally get an auction house? This system is a headache, and a hassle.

I'm with you on this and this has been hashed, hashed, hashed, and rehashed over and over and I dont think they will ever do the right thing and that is to give us a damn auction house! I have played many MMO's and this is by far the worst economy system ever and you should have seen it at the release of the game, it was completely HELLISH!!! Auction houses are so damn nice to have for many reasons but they wanted to try something new and it sucks sweaty monkey b????. They will never change it because I believe pride and time spent wont allow them to make the correct choice but that is my guess. I could be totally wrong though. Sorry Zenimax for the elbow slam to the cranium but its true.

BlueGreenMikey

For what it's worth, I make a ton of money trading, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that it's a major pain in the ass to comparison shop. Someone across the map might be selling something for like 10% of what I'm selling it for, but I know that most people aren't checking all the traders once they find what they want. All I really have to check for pricing purposes are the traders near my own, and sometimes all I have to check is my own trader.

I almost never purchase anything, however. Too annoying. And I'm not going to spend the time to comparison shop, and since I know I might get fleeced (since I'm fleecing people myself), I'm just not going to chance it unless I really, really need something (like a recipe for a writ, for example).

One addition that I would like to see: let's say I need a specific recipe. I'd like to be able to search for that specific recipe across all guild traders in areas that I've encountered. I'd like the game to tell me just one piece of information: if/where that recipe is for sale. I don't need a price, I don't need a quantity, I don't need anything but a simple notification that the product is for sale. Kind of like me calling a store on the phone and saying, "Uh, do you carry this cookbook?"

The system is still relatively onerous. I'd have to take the time to travel to the trader, see if the price is even worth it. And if it's in multiple places, if I care enough, I'd have to comparison shop at all the traders. And who knows, I might leave to check a price and it gets bought out from under my nose.

It preserves the same economy, and it shouldn't have a major effect on prices or the economy, so sellers would stay happy, but it strongly removes a lot of the major frustration that buyers have. Plus, things might sell more if I know all I have to do to buy the thing I want is to travel to one particular trader in a city. Sellers might do better, and prices might go up.

driosketch wrote: »

Last week my two guilds picked up traders in Shornhelm both for 100g each. You guys fighting over the "Top" spots are going to price yourselves out of business.

It seems like Shornhelm should be much more expensive. It's always so busy in the crafting section. But most of the traders there are often low on stock too (XBOX NA). Who knows.

Divinius wrote: »

Now, I know there are a LOT more Guild Traders out there than the 20+ NPCs I checked, and it's entirely possible that some or all of the recipes I need are sitting up for sale on some of those other traders.

Just for future reference, I've seen some very recipe-heavy traders in Wayrest (XBOX NA).

jkemmery

Blade_07 wrote: »

QueenAyrenn wrote: »

Bids for some traders are getting close to one million. That is insane. Without a good guild trader, nobody can compete with those numbers, and it's becoming impossible to get a good guild trader.

Is there any word yet on when we'll finally get an auction house? This system is a headache, and a hassle.

I'm with you on this and this has been hashed, hashed, hashed, and rehashed over and over and I dont think they will ever do the right thing and that is to give us a damn auction house! I have played many MMO's and this is by far the worst economy system ever and you should have seen it at the release of the game, it was completely HELLISH!!! Auction houses are so damn nice to have for many reasons but they wanted to try something new and it sucks sweaty monkey b????. They will never change it because I believe pride and time spent wont allow them to make the correct choice but that is my guess. I could be totally wrong though. Sorry Zenimax for the elbow slam to the cranium but its true.

They won't change it probably because it's become ingrained in the guild system now, as the primary reason many guilds exist. Also however, one important factor that the guild traders and their bidding provides is a huge gold sink to keep the economy from becoming inflated. Of course that could be accomplished with auction house fees as well.

I've actually come to like the system. It's a pain in the butt when I can't find what I need, but it's an excuse to go visit other areas I may not have been to in a while.

I can normally find anything I want after visiting 10-20 traders in different areas. It takes all of 15 minutes of my time. Most things are easily enough obtained that if the price is to high at one trader, I just go to the stall down the way.

I support the system for what it provides. I do wish the search was better, and that you could have say a dozen or so saved searches. But I would rather keep the guild trader system than abandon it and go with an auction house system.

That's my 2 cents.

Lucius_Aelius

Chillic wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

This is the case for playing the game, not for buying goods. If I want realism, I'll go to Target. I want to spend the time I have to play a game to actually play a game. There is a reason they don't have something in their trailer like "Embark on an epic journey to find common materials". I don't care if its an AH or the current system is improved but what we have now is trash.

I think you're missing the point here, playing the game is how you're supposed to get your primary loot, trading and buying from guild traders are just extras, and they're not supposed to be a better source for things than playing the game and getting them yourself without buying them.

The whole point of not having an auction house is that it would be easier to get anything you'd ever need from it than actually playing the game, and that's not what the Developers or most of us want. Having the guild traders isn't supposed to be a convenient way to acquire things, it's just better than having nothing at all because at least this way there is some centralized buying and selling of extra loot greater than zero to help mitigate RNG, if you've got to much of something you don't need you can sell it and get something for it you do need (gold), and if you need something you haven't gotten enough of you can check the traders to see if they have what you want.

You're not guaranteed to find what you want but that's the point, if you were guaranteed to find anything you ever wanted at the store you'd never have to play the game to acquire anything, aside from farming for gold of course but this game would be boring (and broken) as hell if all you had to do was farm gold to get anything you'd ever want or need.

And I for one love that you have to do some legwork in order to find things, again otherwise it would just be too easy and you might as well have an auction house. It's not a bug or mistake you're complaining about, it's a feature, and I (along with many others) think it's an excellent system for occupying the middle ground between an auction house and having no trading at all. Being able to search the inventory of any single guild trader while you're talking to him would be a nice and realistic feature, like asking a store owner in real life if he has such and such, but any other features to make finding things easier I've heard suggested would only hurt the game and break lore/realism, which would compromise immersion.

And your analogy about Target is nonsense, Target would be a perfect place to go where you're pretty much guaranteed to find what you want for a fair price, and that's exactly what this system isn't and what it's not at all trying to be. Playing the game and getting your own loot is how you're supposed to get most of your stuff, buying from guild traders is just extra and isn't supposed to be easier than getting your things by playing the game.

As for selling issues, I agree that some extra guild traders in the world would be helpful so more guilds can have stores to sell from (and cut down on excessive bidding), and I also like the idea I heard suggested that people outside of the guild should still be able to sell in the store for an added premium to the guild taken out of your profits. It's only fair that everyone has a chance to sell their excess items, but as far as buyers are concerned I think this system is in a good place and doesn't need any tweaking, it's fine as is and certainly isn't garbage, you only think that because you want it to be something it isn't and was never trying to be.

Oh no, I got the point. I PVP and really only PVP. Unless players start putting runes in their ass and dropping them when kicked, I am stuck with a *** poor excuse of a trade system. Sorry, but I have spent the last 25 minutes looking around for runes to craft a friend some stuff cause he is just starting the game. Yes, this is what I want to pay for and spend my time doing... more please. If you think my Target comment was actually comparing the game, you have issues. One is reality, one fantasy. My fantasy is not shopping. But just to clue you in on Target. I took my daughter there to get some shorts for Back to School shopping... didn't have ***, so yes, it's just like ESO

So Target didn't have what you wanted one time and it's suddenly just like ESO... That's nonsense. And you're the one who brought up Target saying if you wanted shopping to be realistic you'd go there, as if it had anything to do with ESO, which it doesn't and I never suggested it did. My point is that ESO isn't trying to be super realistic, it's trying to have trading without breaking the game's economy, and while you would probably love an auction house from the sound of it I and many others would rather not have any trading at all than that.

If we're going to have trading without breaking the game and trivializing the acquisition of loot then this system does the job, it's better than having no trading at all to be sure, and since you seem to want an auction house I'm hardly surprised you hate it but for the people who would rather have no trading at all than an auction house this system is expertly placed in the middle ground and does its job admirably.

And frankly I'm glad that you can't find anything you want any time you want with hardly any effort involved, this game would be a joke if you could and that's why an auction house is a terrible idea, you like that idea though so we're clearly not going to agree on this. Playing the game is supposed to be how you get most of your loot, the trading guilds are just extra and are nice as they are for what they are, you don't like them because you expect and want more of them than they were meant to deliver and I do like them because I expect and want them to be a nice bonus on the side that is never a primary source of anything.

So basically there's no point in debating this any more between us since we clearly want completely different things from this game's trading system. I understand your point of view but I can't stress enough that trading being too easy would destroy this game, why go questing or Dungeon crawling when you can just farm some gold and buy anything you could ever want or need? That's how an auction house would be, and that would be horrible, so in light of that I think this system is the best of both worlds, it allows trading greater than zero without letting it get out of hand and destroy the game's economy.

And Runes should be something you look for rarely enough that I can't see it being a gamebreaking issue, I don't usually stop for things between keeps in PvP but even I usually stop for runes (and a few select Reagents like Namira's Rot and Columbine, I use that stuff in everything practically and can't get enough), there are so many different ones that you have to pick up a lot to build up a healthy supply, and needing lower level runes for a friend is a niche need that hardly consistutes an argument for revamping the trading system.

And if you're not prepared to do a little farming here and there to acquire such things then that's your own fault, I have to spend time farming sometimes and that's just the way it is, if you find good spots for what you're looking for you can get a lot in a short time just running in a circle.

Pentegarn

Worst system I've ever experienced. I purchased a couple of racial motifs conveniently placed on a DF trader (don't remember the guild name and really couldn't care less) when I first began playing this game. Hell, I didn't even realize it WAS a guild trader. I just thought I was using the AH. Then I noticed the different traders, each with their own items and prices. I haven't used a guild trader since, and probably never will.

It's not worth it to me to waste my game time, traveling all over Tamriel, checking trader after trader. It's a boring waste of time. I'd just as soon find/earn what I want myself, or buy it from a seller in the zone chat.

Others may like this system, to each their own. But I don't use it. I'll take the typical, run-of-the-mill, public AH 1,000 times over, any day of the week over the guild trader system ESO uses. There may be worse systems out there in other games. But of the string of MMO's I've played since EQ, ESO has the worst system I've seen to date. Entirely my opinion of course, the there it is.

LEGENDARYYY

ZOS won't ever be able to satisfy everyone. Some people want everything handed to them on a silver platter, be it high end gear, gold, guild trader, items, XP, AP, levels, crafting professions, skill points and armor styles.

While, some of us, understand that if you get everything you wish in an instant the game will die within a month.