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Siphoning Strikes?
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Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭Good point. The only good thing to come from the patch is the potential benefit of having an option that doesn't take up both bars. The idea that you must have a skill on both bars to keep the toggle active is ridiculous. You should turn it on and it stay active for any bars it is slotted on. I can't speak for everyone else, but my secondary resto staff bar has no attacks on it. Heals and utility skills only. Being forced to slot Siphoning, or Inner Light, or whatever when I'm only needing it on one bar is rather silly and punitive.
Absolutely. Having a toggle on both bars makes sense *if* the use case is that you have the skill active at all times, e.g. to constantly build stamina for blocking as a tank. If you are using it for bursts of AoE then an activated skill makes sense, but only if it is worth the cost/time of using, and is not a painful mechanic. Unfortunately, leeching does not work at all for the former given low return and lack of proc on abilities and siphoning, though closer, is a little too low on return and a little short on duration at the current 10s.
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Ipsius✭✭✭✭It seems that in trying to make both morphs have separate viabilities, both morphs have been reduced to suckitude. If the flat return duration is boosted, then it will be viable...
Which means leaching strike toggle will continue to never be used. Ugh.Edited by Ipsius on August 13, 2015 1:18AM2 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭Given the statement in the patch notes, I am hoping we will see the 15s duration implemented in the next maintenance window. I think that could leave siphoning in a decent spot, though would be keen to run some dungeons to test properly. For DD it could be something which, if cast in the right moment (running between packs, waiting for next wave to spawn etc.), minimising the loss from activiating, could be very useful and the increased damage/offhealing is very handy. For tanks it would become another cooldown to manage in return for sustain. The fixed values do not seem far off something sensible and work particularly well for "off stats", e.g. stamina for a magicka based tank.
Leeching, unfortunately, just looks horrible. Taking an almost unused skill and reducing the benefit while maintaining the cost just doesn't seem likely to convince anyone to start using it.0 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno :
First, thanks to you and your team for listening to our feedback about siphoning strikes and leeching strikes and making some changes! It must be difficult with a thousand voices yelling and complaining every time anything changes, but I appreciate your continued efforts to make as many people happy as possible.
On to siphoning attacks/ leeching strikes. Initially on the PTS, siphoning strikes and its morphs were made a 10 second buff with fixed resource returns. In reaction to nightblade feedback on these forums, the latest Pts made changes: leeching strikes was to remain a toggle, and siphoning attacks was to have a 15 second duration.
Unfortunately, this creates a dilemma. Leeching strikes was given toggle status and returns magicka/stamina (only on standard attacks) based on the players highest stat, as well as 2% hp. This comes along with the hefty damage reduction of 17%. Since the resource returns scale, a player with moderate stats can expect 700-800 stamina/magicka/hp per light attack.
The self buff version of siphoning attacks returns a fixed amount of resources exceeding 900, and also has a chance to restore over 1,000 mp/stam on ability attacks. Currently on the Pts, its duration is still 10 seconds (not sure if that's intended)
Again, while I appreciate the attempt at improving the skill, why would anyone use leeching strikes (especially if siphoning attacks gets the duration boost)? The only reason the % damage reduction was acceptable on siphoning attacks as a toggle was because it returned resources on ability use; assuming siphoning attacks' duration gets boosted as announced the choices are:
Leeching strikes: toggle, 700-800 hp/mp/Stam per light attack. -17% damage/healing.
Siphoning attacks: 15 sec self buff. 900+ stam/mp per light attack, proc chance to restore a large chunk more on all skill use. No penalty.
Again, the question is, why would anyone ever use leeching strikes? A small chunk of hp only on normal weapon swings isn't worth a 17% power reduction to anyone. Not even tanks would use leeching over siphoning attacks.
Please ask the team to have another look at making both of these morphs useful. When nightblades said they wanted the skill to remain a toggle, I'm pretty sure they all were referring to siphoning attacks specifically
there are lots of suggestions in this and other threads on what changes the community would like to see, but I won't reiterate them. Just know that as it stands, these two morphs are not yet appropriately tweaked.
Thanks!Edited by Ipsius on August 14, 2015 5:22PM1 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭No way! I just replaced it for the 7th time! Wait...
Edited by Ipsius on August 14, 2015 3:54PM0 -
helediron✭✭✭✭✭
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Just repeating what i wrote few weeks ago. Drop the leeching strikes and make the morphs from Siphoning Attacks. I have tested more this skill on PTS and the timed version has to be at least 20 seconds. Otherwise it is a dps loss and too difficult to use with weapon swap. For magicka use it is even worse as resource gain because of the magicka cost. Twenty seconds make it good pair with other buff/debuff spells like blur, shadows and mark target.If ZOS keeps the toggle and this new version, i hope both morphs are versions of Siphoning Attack. The Leeching Strikes is almost never used and can be dropped away.
Morph 1: Siphoning Attacks toggled.
Morph 2: Siphoning Attacks timed, at least 20 seconds.
Both versions have to give enough resources back for sustained use. This is the core feature of magicka nightblades to stay alive without class shields and burst heals, at melee range by spamming Sap Essence. Current new SA broke that for magicka DDs and saptanks. Make sure the timed version actually gives significant amount of mana back after subtracting the cost of the spell.
ZOS, if you have a spell for resource gain, the minimum it should do IS resource gain. I think there is again a saboteur in NB team...
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Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭Testing with a live character with CP and reduce spell cost enchants siphoning definitely does gain you resources.0
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umagon✭✭✭✭✭Leeching pairs well with the swallow soul+degeneration rotation. It just needs a bit of boost to the healing. Also you need to build around healing and health recovery to make the most of it. I tested this on live the other day in pvp; where I have my heavy armor healing setup and it showed some potential. On pts before the latest patch I found with the same built but with vigor replacing leeching I could solo tank some of the sewer bosses without a healer.0
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ZOS_GinaBrunoCommunity Manager
We were a little ahead of ourselves. It will be correctly increased to 15 seconds in the next PTS patch.2 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭Leeching pairs well with the swallow soul+degeneration rotation. It just needs a bit of boost to the healing. Also you need to build around healing and health recovery to make the most of it. I tested this on live the other day in pvp; where I have my heavy armor healing setup and it showed some potential. On pts before the latest patch I found with the same built but with vigor replacing leeching I could solo tank some of the sewer bosses without a healer.
When I tested it, I had around 27k HP, around +30% healing done, and around +15% healing received, and it was still only around 800 hp per light attack. Pretty good for sure, but worth -17% power and giving up a chance to proc resource gain on ability attacks? I don't think so, anyway. I agree that it needs to get a big boost to it's healing if it's going to retain it's damage penalty.0 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭It all depends on your build and rotation if the -17% affects you or not. With the swallow soul + degeneration rotation including the light and heavy attacks the damge reduction gets a bit nullified. Degeneration procs the mage guild effects and all the healing additives add to the 100% health return on degeneration's proc I think mine was about 122%. And the resource gain proc is another it really depends on the build type of thing.
I think they are trying to pull away from the unlimited resources players have and tone it down a bit. Also that leeching might have been the true tanking morph but it got eclipsed because unlimited resources was better. Also I don't feel leeching is ment to be a stand alone skill, it seems to be more additive.0 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭Because there is a good amount of self healing in the siphoning tree, all of it dependent on spell power, it will take a little more health per tick on leeching to be worth sacrificing the 17%, and that is before factoring the damage loss. This is especially true if it only procs on basic attacks.0
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Pappa✭✭✭*Kiss the goat*0 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭Because there is a good amount of self healing in the siphoning tree, all of it dependent on spell power, it will take a little more health per tick on leeching to be worth sacrificing the 17%, and that is before factoring the damage loss. This is especially true if it only procs on basic attacks.
Exactly. That -17% is making your swallow soul do less damage and therefore heal less, lowers the heal from your saps, and may even effect the heal from leeching strikes itself.
Instead of thinking of "making up" the 17% reduction in weapon/spell power (leeching strikes penalty) by gaining major sorcery from degeneration or sap essence, think of just having that +20% power without having to make up for any reduction (siphoning attacks).
Your swallow soul does more damage, so it heals for more, and every other heal heals more, every attack hurts more. That's where leeching strikes, in its current form, really falls short.
With major sorcery...
Leeching strikes: spell/weapon power 100% - 17% + 20%, resource regain on basic attack only, small hp regain
Siphoning attacks: spell/weapon power 100% + 20%, resource regain on basic and proc chance on all attacks
So even with a heal-centric or tanking build, it still makes no sense to use leeching strikes in its current form.
If you had 30k hp and +50% heals received, you're still only looking at 600+300=900 hp per light attack. That sounds pretty nice, but you're sacrificing that 17% damage and the time you're spending light attacking when you could be using skills. AND it's assuming you have a decently high hp, very heals-centric build, which means you're again sacrificing gear/champion points in other areas. 2% hp simply isn't worth it.
I think the simplest fix would be to reduce/tweak the amount of resource returned per attack, remove the damage penalty, and/or increase the hp return. I know it shouldn't be overpowered, but I want it to be useful!Edited by Ipsius on August 14, 2015 6:58PM0 -
helediron✭✭✭✭✭
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Make it twenty. Look at the other buffs. There are many at twenty seconds range. When tanking the main bar has ten second skills like taunt and shadow barrier trigger. The swap has twenty second buffs applied on every second round. Same applies to dps with cripple and grim clunky on main bar and buffs on swap at twenty second rotation. Think and have some consistency.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »
While we are at the subject, you should fix also the imbalance in magicka cost vs. gain. You might increase magicka regen and/or add some minor buff to it.
On hiatus. PC,EU,AD - crafting completionist - @helediron 900+ cp, @helestor 1000+ cp, @helestar 800+ cp, @helester 700+ cp - Dragonborn Z Suomikilta, Harrods, Master Crafter. - Blog - Crafthouse: all stations, all munduses, all dummies, open to everyone1 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭Same goes for siphoning attacks morph. I look forward to 15 second duration but 20+ would be ideal, and if you have to "tweak" the resource regain, I'll gladly trade that for many, many hours of gameplay convenience0
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umagon✭✭✭✭✭Leeching needs a bit of a healing boost but I don't think the -17% is going away as it's the casting cost due to the skill being a toggle.0
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Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭Same goes for siphoning attacks morph. I look forward to 15 second duration but 20+ would be ideal, and if you have to "tweak" the resource regain, I'll gladly trade that for many, many hours of gameplay convenience
I think this is part of why having two different morphs which are both viable would help. For tanks, something that is always on with lower returns per unit time works well. (though I maintain the burnt returns are too low without abilities proccing leeching). For DD and healers the use is likely to be more bursty, so the regen should be bursty too (regardless of whether it is 15s or something else). The resource return from siphoning should not be based on perpetual use unless this is the likely use case. At the moment it is confused as all builds would use siphoning.1 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭When the community clamored for the skill to remain a toggle, they meant siphoning attacks, but leeching strikes got it. I don't think any nb would mind if leeching also became a self buff with boosted hp restore and no damage penalty. As it stands though leeching strikes doesn't fit any role that siphoning attacks doesn't fit much, much better.
They have lots and lots of ways to make both morphs fit different rolls and compete with each other. Hopefully they'll hit the mark next iteration0 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭Same goes for siphoning attacks morph. I look forward to 15 second duration but 20+ would be ideal, and if you have to "tweak" the resource regain, I'll gladly trade that for many, many hours of gameplay convenience
I think this is part of why having two different morphs which are both viable would help. For tanks, something that is always on with lower returns per unit time works well. (though I maintain the burnt returns are too low without abilities proccing leeching). For DD and healers the use is likely to be more bursty, so the regen should be bursty too (regardless of whether it is 15s or something else). The resource return from siphoning should not be based on perpetual use unless this is the likely use case. At the moment it is confused as all builds would use siphoning.
That's a great idea! @ZOS_GinaBruno , I know I keep picking on you and this thread is 9 pages long, but there are some really good ideas here that I hope someone is paying attention to.
Melding @Altyrann and other suggestions, why not make leeching strikes a low hp/stamina/mp return on basic attack (self buff OR toggle) with a chance on ALL attacks to restore a decent amount of hp (around 5-8%, like blood magic)? Just hp, not the other resources.
Leave siphoning attacks as it is, with higher returns and a chance on all attacks for even higher returns? That makes each skill distinct, significantly useful to every variety of build, with clear advantages/disadvantages to each.
If you play with the numbers, hopefully you could reduce/eliminate that -17% damage too...
I think that's the best idea yet. What do the rest of you think?Edited by Ipsius on August 14, 2015 7:48PM0 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭I would be reluctant to see magicka/stamina returns from leeching not activated on ability use. Rather, to make it work well for tanks, I see a significant damage/power penalty in return for health return. Bear in mind that the current, successful, use of the ability (morph choice aside) for tanks is to take a hit on power in return for resource return and the ability to keep blocking, especially for magicka tanks.0
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Ipsius✭✭✭✭I'd be ok with the damage penalty staying (since your description is how I use it too), but in an attempt to "balance" the penalty removal, I figured making the proc only restore health would do the trick.
That way it's at least not the obvious "only tanks" choice, but can be used by any build that prioritizes restoring hp/while still getting some resources, while siphoning attacks remains more heavily centered on resource-regain. That way, a tank/healer/dps can justify using whichever morph suits their preference/build.
Now I just need to get hired as lead skill-changer at ZOS...0 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno ,
I just read through the new PTS patch notes, and was really happy with all the new changes! I wanted to ask you specifically about any potential changes to the skill Leeching Strikes though, as it remains the same as it is on live.
As outlined in earlier posts, the positive changes made to Siphoning Attacks have made it the superior option for every role, even tanks, compared to Leeching Strikes. Might you be able to tell us if there are any plans in the works for adjusting Leeching strikes to make it a competitive morph?0 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭I meant to ask, can you clue is in whether or not it's being worked on, or if it's considered finished as-is on the PTS?
Details not necessary, just whether or not to expect an adjustment ;-)
Thanks!0 -
twistedmonk✭✭✭I agree with most of the posters here. Having a bunch of skills with timers means you spend your combat reapplying buffs instead of actually fighting. that does not make for a very enjoyable gaming experience.
- This ability no longer restores a percentage of your Magicka or Stamina. Instead, it restores a fixed amount per hit.
Edited by twistedmonk on August 21, 2015 6:20AM4 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭I think I posted asking for updates on leeching strikes right when the new pts patch notes were released... I'm guessing it got lost in the sea of people asking questions and whatnot.
So @ZOS_GinaBruno , could you please let us know if the team is still adjusting leeching strikes? I outlined in earlier posts why, with the changes to siphoning attacks, leeching strikes has no place even with tanks. Is the team still tweaking leeching strikes, or will it remain the unfortunately completely unused morph?
Thanks again for any info!Edited by Ipsius on August 21, 2015 4:36PM0
