Siphoning Strikes?

starkerealm

Honestly, thinking about it further...

The existing ability, unchanged. It only applies to weapon attacks (not ability usage).

Leeching, unchanged.

Siphoning Attacks, ability no longer applies a damage debuff, but still does not apply to non-weapon attacks.

DisgracefulMind

Spiderwebs wrote: »

After testing this all last night, this is agonizing. I've played a nb tank since a little after launch, and siphoning strikes had always been the bread-and-butter skill, since we don't have a self-heal or damage shields or even a aoe cc or anything. That's the trade-off, and it made for an interesting, fun, active style of tanking.

Now it's just clunky and painful. Ten seconds means that I'm constantly flipping bars to desperately try to keep my buffs up, trying to not die and try to get a couple hits in to restore my flagging resources (which, by the way, is a waste of effort -
It rarely restores as much magicka as it costs now) before something hits me too hard and I can't recover. We don't have an "oh ***" button. A tank can't cloak and run and away from the mantikora.

I'm completely crushed by this change. Nb tanking is my all-time favorite thing in this game, but at this rate, I'm going to have to level a dk like everyone else and retire her. It's no longer worth the struggle. Please, please take another look at it. I don't know what about it warranted such a change in the first place, but as someone said above, it's completely destroying a whole class of nightblades.

I really hope they listen to posters like you. Nightblade tanks who tank harder end-game content know what they're talking about.
LISTEN TO THEM ZOS.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

hrothbern wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

10 Seconds does seem a little short for this skill especially from a tanking point of view.

I would have to wait to see the regain values listed here (sorry if I missed them) or test myself on PTS.

Mostly I see this becoming a quick fire skill followed by a spam of light/skill attacks when resources are low. Which adds an interesting dynamic to the skill.

I tested a couple of hours ago: with Jewelry 3x198 Mag Cost reduction, 7x HA the Cost of Siphoning attacks is 1118 Mag for 10 seconds and the regain is 10% of 1891. So on Average, IF you would per 10 seconds ONLY cast 1x Siphoning Attacks the net gain on SA would be 1891-1118= 774 Mag..... Nowhere close to pay even 1x Sap Essence.

And as a non-magicka-cost-reducing tank, SA costs nearly double what it returns. Like you pointed out, this makes it even worse.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

SturgeHammer wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

SturgeHammer wrote: »

Spiderwebs wrote: »

After testing this all last night, this is agonizing. I've played a nb tank since a little after launch, and siphoning strikes had always been the bread-and-butter skill, since we don't have a self-heal or damage shields or even a aoe cc or anything. That's the trade-off, and it made for an interesting, fun, active style of tanking.

Now it's just clunky and painful. Ten seconds means that I'm constantly flipping bars to desperately try to keep my buffs up, trying to not die and try to get a couple hits in to restore my flagging resources (which, by the way, is a waste of effort -
It rarely restores as much magicka as it costs now) before something hits me too hard and I can't recover. We don't have an "oh ***" button. A tank can't cloak and run and away from the mantikora.

I'm completely crushed by this change. Nb tanking is my all-time favorite thing in this game, but at this rate, I'm going to have to level a dk like everyone else and retire her. It's no longer worth the struggle. Please, please take another look at it. I don't know what about it warranted such a change in the first place, but as someone said above, it's completely destroying a whole class of nightblades.

Siphoning Strikes was pretty much the main resource management engine on my NB tank and, even though I haven't tried this out yet on PTS, I don't think I like the way this sounds. 10 Seconds is just way too short for this effect. It should be at least 30 seconds or go back to being a toggle. Sure, the down side of the pre-IC strikes was real and made it awkward for damage dealers, but it was Ideal for tanks, which is who I always assumed this ability was designed for.

Not to mention, the Magicka cost of the ability is double what it replenishes. Most times it won't even "pay for itself" so to speak. The toggle and damage penalty was the right way to go for this.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, I think the the way to go here would be to get rid of the toggle and make the resource siphoning, and the old drawback, a passive for just having it on the skill bar. Then you could activate (similar mechanics to restoring aura), for a magicka cost to remove the damage drawback for X seconds.

I think this would allow it to be good for tanks, and at least an option for other play styles.

Very interesting. I like this idea.

starkerealm

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

SturgeHammer wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

SturgeHammer wrote: »

Spiderwebs wrote: »

After testing this all last night, this is agonizing. I've played a nb tank since a little after launch, and siphoning strikes had always been the bread-and-butter skill, since we don't have a self-heal or damage shields or even a aoe cc or anything. That's the trade-off, and it made for an interesting, fun, active style of tanking.

Now it's just clunky and painful. Ten seconds means that I'm constantly flipping bars to desperately try to keep my buffs up, trying to not die and try to get a couple hits in to restore my flagging resources (which, by the way, is a waste of effort -
It rarely restores as much magicka as it costs now) before something hits me too hard and I can't recover. We don't have an "oh ***" button. A tank can't cloak and run and away from the mantikora.

I'm completely crushed by this change. Nb tanking is my all-time favorite thing in this game, but at this rate, I'm going to have to level a dk like everyone else and retire her. It's no longer worth the struggle. Please, please take another look at it. I don't know what about it warranted such a change in the first place, but as someone said above, it's completely destroying a whole class of nightblades.

Siphoning Strikes was pretty much the main resource management engine on my NB tank and, even though I haven't tried this out yet on PTS, I don't think I like the way this sounds. 10 Seconds is just way too short for this effect. It should be at least 30 seconds or go back to being a toggle. Sure, the down side of the pre-IC strikes was real and made it awkward for damage dealers, but it was Ideal for tanks, which is who I always assumed this ability was designed for.

Not to mention, the Magicka cost of the ability is double what it replenishes. Most times it won't even "pay for itself" so to speak. The toggle and damage penalty was the right way to go for this.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, I think the the way to go here would be to get rid of the toggle and make the resource siphoning, and the old drawback, a passive for just having it on the skill bar. Then you could activate (similar mechanics to restoring aura), for a magicka cost to remove the damage drawback for X seconds.

I think this would allow it to be good for tanks, and at least an option for other play styles.

Very interesting. I like this idea.

That would be interesting.

But, can we all agree that X needs to be > 10?

Turelus

hrothbern wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

10 Seconds does seem a little short for this skill especially from a tanking point of view.

I would have to wait to see the regain values listed here (sorry if I missed them) or test myself on PTS.

Mostly I see this becoming a quick fire skill followed by a spam of light/skill attacks when resources are low. Which adds an interesting dynamic to the skill.

I tested a couple of hours ago: with Jewelry 3x198 Mag Cost reduction, 7x HA the Cost of Siphoning attacks is 1118 Mag for 10 seconds and the regain is 10% of 1891. So on Average, IF you would per 10 seconds ONLY cast 1x Siphoning Attacks the net gain on SA would be 1891-1118= 774 Mag..... Nowhere close to pay even 1x Sap Essence.

Thanks for the numbers. That seems a little sad though, hopefully if we can get some good structured feedback, numbers etc and have this somewhere more usable ready for release.

hrothbern

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

SturgeHammer wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

SturgeHammer wrote: »

Spiderwebs wrote: »

After testing this all last night, this is agonizing. I've played a nb tank since a little after launch, and siphoning strikes had always been the bread-and-butter skill, since we don't have a self-heal or damage shields or even a aoe cc or anything. That's the trade-off, and it made for an interesting, fun, active style of tanking.

Now it's just clunky and painful. Ten seconds means that I'm constantly flipping bars to desperately try to keep my buffs up, trying to not die and try to get a couple hits in to restore my flagging resources (which, by the way, is a waste of effort -
It rarely restores as much magicka as it costs now) before something hits me too hard and I can't recover. We don't have an "oh ***" button. A tank can't cloak and run and away from the mantikora.

I'm completely crushed by this change. Nb tanking is my all-time favorite thing in this game, but at this rate, I'm going to have to level a dk like everyone else and retire her. It's no longer worth the struggle. Please, please take another look at it. I don't know what about it warranted such a change in the first place, but as someone said above, it's completely destroying a whole class of nightblades.

Siphoning Strikes was pretty much the main resource management engine on my NB tank and, even though I haven't tried this out yet on PTS, I don't think I like the way this sounds. 10 Seconds is just way too short for this effect. It should be at least 30 seconds or go back to being a toggle. Sure, the down side of the pre-IC strikes was real and made it awkward for damage dealers, but it was Ideal for tanks, which is who I always assumed this ability was designed for.

Not to mention, the Magicka cost of the ability is double what it replenishes. Most times it won't even "pay for itself" so to speak. The toggle and damage penalty was the right way to go for this.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, I think the the way to go here would be to get rid of the toggle and make the resource siphoning, and the old drawback, a passive for just having it on the skill bar. Then you could activate (similar mechanics to restoring aura), for a magicka cost to remove the damage drawback for X seconds.

I think this would allow it to be good for tanks, and at least an option for other play styles.

Very interesting. I like this idea.

Fully agree
In this way the ability can service several roles....... including TANKING

WhiskeyJac

Yup the return values are so low u can gain by dropping shield and letting the actual regen give back stam , so a class with no shield and insta heals just lost its only way of sustaining itself , So NB back to dps then , ZOS keeps saying any role and keeps making changes such each can do only one thing , with no stam while blocking only way to tank hard hitting mobs is to have a Templar throwing shards so all other class heals are out of the window, now this.

Nice one ZOS

ginoboehm

how about making two morphes keeping one as a toggle as it was (permablock casting in pvp shouldn't be a real issue with lower damage and so on) and one buff usefull for dps? keep it as it was and change the other morph no tank is using anyway. otherwise nb tanks become a bad choice and all we like about them is lost

Morridune

As much as i try to look at positive ways to view updates and ways they can be usefull, 10s is just too short its a nice idea but I cant see how its going to be practical in improving gameplay on NB without either increasing the return or the duration it looks just too awkward a skill to fit into any set up now and to frustrating at what it could of been to spend any extended period of time to try

Ghasi

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Even as an NB-hating Sorc, I have to say that 10 seconds is way too low. Should be at least 20 seconds to keep it in line with similar buffs for other classes.

Even the sorcs think that's too much...A SORC!

Not my siphoning strikes
From a toggle to 10s!!! wtf leave the damage debuff and give me my toggle back.
If this change stays as is, my whole build will get ruined. People complained about the damage debuff,
but for me, having one less skill to cast is what really allowed my build to work. a lot of small short buffs.
my sustain is going to go out the window...back to the old nightblade damage burst into cloak for pvp i guess.

helediron wrote: »

Ten secons is too short. It is not in line with other buffs like grim, blur, shades etc. Cast every ten seconds is even harder dps drop than previous debuff because it removes one dps ability cast. Ten seconds is not at all usable for weapon swapping.

btw
with no stam regen on blocking for tanks, and dodge cost increase (for people like me), ward spamming as a defense will rule pvp i'm pretty sure. at least as far as sustainable defenses go.

kogadrake

This is my thought. on live we have a 17% dmg penalty on a 100% uptime toggle skill. On PTS, we get no penalty, but have to use the skill about every 10moves to maintain 100% uptime. This means you replace 1 skill every 10seconds with SA, this would be your weakest skill in rotation, and should be about a 6-8% drop in DPS (weakest skill used 1 less time every 10seconds, factor in light attack weaving and I think this number should hold up) and we get back about a 1/3 of the resource on proc (assuming main attribute is ~30k, less if talking tank as they will maybe be 17-18k stam??).

The easiest solution that makes the smallest change to the players is to drop the resource returns (to level on PTS or maybe up them slightly) and keep it a toggle skill but make the dmg penalty 10% for rank I and 7% for rank IV. Then it function like it does now, but gets rid of the infinite sustain on AOE or single target and still achieves the same DPS penalty that needing to cast it every 10 seconds would.

This fixes the functionality aspect of the skill, then its a question of if returns are high enough, which only testing can tell. based on tanking as a NB on live, i dont see it being a huge issue to maintain stamina even with the changes, but maybe this is because I am used to DK tanking where I have to manage it to some level and when I get on my NB it just stays full without needing spears to keep it up.

Ghasi

SturgeHammer wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno, I think the the way to go here would be to get rid of the toggle and make the resource siphoning, and the old drawback, a passive for just having it on the skill bar. Then you could activate (similar mechanics to restoring aura), for a magicka cost to remove the damage drawback for X seconds.

I think this would allow it to be good for tanks, and at least an option for other play styles.

Clap! Applaude! YES!
if there NEEDS to be a change to the ability, this is one of the best i've heard.
@ZOS_GinaBruno, please give this man a raise
if this sounds like too much then pls, just leave it alone, but whatever you do, don't leave things as they are.

kogadrake

SturgeHammer wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno, I think the the way to go here would be to get rid of the toggle and make the resource siphoning, and the old drawback, a passive for just having it on the skill bar. Then you could activate (similar mechanics to restoring aura), for a magicka cost to remove the damage drawback for X seconds.

I think this would allow it to be good for tanks, and at least an option for other play styles.

The issue with this type of setup is if your a magicka build with SA on your dual wield bar thats used for impale and AoE, you would need to maintain the buff to execute without a penalty making it have the same issue as the current setup. Yes it would make AoE easier as it would be auto on an not need to worry about toggling it on (assuming only on one bar).

I still think changing the return (similar to what is on PTS) and thus also reducing the penalty since the skill is not as strong (say down to 7%) would gain the same overall effect without disrupting how players builds work.

Ipsius

Thanks again for all the ideas, guys! I think the admins have received the message. If you do any /feedback on the PTS, that might also help. Please be nice though. These folks have to deal with everyone yelling at them over tons of changes, so the least we humble NB's can do is not add to the problem (especially since they've already acknowledged that they're looking into fixing Siphoning Attacks!)

I still would like to know, though, if Siphoning Attacks is intended to not proc on damage shields. I remember it being an issue with certain things not proccing against damage shields (that were supposed to); can anyone test on the PTS?

Draehl

I still prefer the idea of nerfing the numbers and making it a "when slotted" (non-toggle effect) - The skill gets an outright nerf, but we gain a skill slot on our other bar and aren't forced to run it on both unless we want to.

That said I still like the alternate *idea* of it being an activated skill, but changing the implementation to something like Absorb Magic or Molten Whip to encourage power attacking for resource return.

Passive: Reduces magicka and stamina ability costs by 8%

Active: For 15 seconds your power attacks restore 70% more resources.

Elijah_Crow

The changes to this core ability went way too far and in the wrong direction. There was an already significant trade off for DPS. I don't care that you gave us that back, we made the sacrifice for regen. Don't think it's balanced, make it a 30% damage reduction or 40% but don't change the core way the class skill line is used.

Nightblades have very weak to no class healing. They have no damage shields. The one thing that set them apart (for roles other than dps) was resource management and this skill was key.

Might as well take away Dragonknight dragon leap or standard while your at it. Too much.

Xeniph

Anyone able to confirm it returns resources on shielded targets? I swear it's not working with shields still, even in the new form.

kojou

i am very glad to see some push back on this change. There are some dungeons that I would actually slot this on for my DPS to keep stamina up when it was more important than the dps loss and toggle it until i build my resources back up.

With the way the ability is now I wouldn't use it. I already have to keep up reapers mark, camo-hunter, relentless fucus and double take, so this would be (like another poster stated) slotted on the same bar I keep Agony.

Actually I will save the 2 skill points for something else altogether and not even activate it.

My vote is for leaving the skill alone and making sure it procs on things it was intended to proc on.

ColtPython

This skill was fine the way it was. And it was a core component of the NB. The real issue was the fact that it proc'd off of caltrops making it way too OP. Caltrops is the real OP skill here.
BTW I have tested this on PTS the tiny siphons that do happen in the 10 seconds (2 at best) still proc off of caltrops.

capricorn152245ub17_ESO

I have to agree the skill was fine as it was. And that being said, it was the only way forward I saw as a NB tank. With the ability changed as it is, I don't see how a NB tank can hope to regain resources except from other players (like in Blazing Spear or Mystic Orb) or potions (which also got a nerf in this class previously).

Back when I first theorycrafted a NB tank (I had been DPS previously), my guildmates and I sat around and spitballed a bit about how to approach designing for NBs. What did they have? What makes them special? Sorcs had the highest DPS at the time. DKs were considered by many (and by many still are) the only valid tanking class. Templars had not got their DPS love, and so they were considered the best healers.

Nightblades had something unique though: they had abilities which made them more of a threat, the more enemies you threw at them. Abilities like Sap Essence, or Soul Tether, which return damage/heals based on the number of enemies hit. But this is also their downfall. Nightblades didn't do well with few enemies, caltrops + SA or otherwise, but could excel when faced with multiple combatants. Did it mean you always won? No. Does it mean you had "infinite" resources with SA? Actually, no. I think this is a symptom of the DPS skyrocketing with the advent of the CP system and heavy use of Ravager sets after the stamina DPS boost in 1.6, resulting in fights becoming shorter and resource exhaustion disappearing as a problem. Even in this setup, DK tanks seem to be able to put more damage out and have decent resource management, and Templar tanks are still able to shield and heal themselves. Nightblades had nothing but excellent resource management to bring to the tanking table.

With the stamina regen changes that are on the PTS, I don't see who in their right mind would take a NB tank over a DK or a Templar (who admittedly are both having their own problems with tanking as well). I can already see that after being kicked from groups, or refused as a NB healer on Live, I actually have no case to offer as to why a group should take me in that role either with the severe increase in demand for Stamina batteries.

My preliminary testing in the PTS indicates Caltrops may be the only persistent AoE that procs SA (still). (I tried Degenerate/Structured Entropy, Poison Mist, Scalding Rune, Refreshing Path, Veil of Blades, and Soul Tether). While if there is an initial hit of damage, that can proc SA, the subsequent ticks don't seem to proc it in any of these abilities. I think then, if what was wanted was a decrease in Caltrops use, what we actually will end up getting is a decrease in SA use. As it stands, the skill is annoying to use. A 10 second buff, even when not tanking (which is all watching timers anyhow) is far too short to be efficacious. It's tedious, and in the end, I believe most players will simply ditch it for an ability that feels less like the snooze button in the morning.

Hoodster92_ESO

NB Tank Downed First Boss in Vet White Gold Tower



Got second boss down as well, but got stopped at the 3rd due to un known mechanic and people getting tired...... Ultimately though yes, tanking is harder than it was before, yes the 10 sec buff is really annoying, but no its not impossible.

Altyrann

Hoodster92_ESO wrote: »

NB Tank Downed First Boss in Vet White Gold Tower



Got second boss down as well, but got stopped at the 3rd due to un known mechanic and people getting tired...... Ultimately though yes, tanking is harder than it was before, yes the 10 sec buff is really annoying, but no its not impossible.

Good work on those bosses

Were you running a Magicka tank throughout (looks like you were leaning that way from the screenshot)? If so, how did you find both Stamina and Magicka management on bosses and on packs of trash (setting aside the annoyance of a 10 second rebuff cycle)?

GreyRanger

Just observing, shouldn't we be shooting for fun rather than manageable/bearable?

shugg

It sounds like all this new version needs is a longer duration and a big regen on the morphs, as i no longer tank on my NB, i am looking forward to how this skill change progresses.

Aoshy

Please... another active skill??? Really? NB already have to spend half of the fight buffing.
Even if it was 1 min, it is just too boring...
Make it works when slotted

Ipsius

Personally, a toggle with reduced effects OR an effect on slotting with an additional effect when activated would be ideal (for me). If that's not doable for whatever reason, 30 seconds is the shortest duration that wouldn't end up annoying.

Even Surge, which had a 17 second duration, got boosted up to 30 seconds. It's now an easy off-bar self-buff for sorcys; I can only imagine they made Siphoning Attacks 10 second duration because they didn't want it to be so easily usable as an off-bar buff.

Having it's effects be constant while toggled and/or slotted with an additional (potentially brief) effect when activated fixes the "off--bar" problem, and makes it much, MUCH less annoying to use.

Imagine if they made Siphoning Attacks very similar to the Templar Restoring Aura; constant resource siphoning for you while slotted AND you could give 1% resource siphon on attack to nearby allies when activated? That would make NB healers even more appealing! Just a thought.

septvestige

Every class can play every role in this game but let's face it for example NB is a DPS class. It is designed like that and it should excel in that role specially.
Noone wants a Tamriel populated only by Nightblades. If NB can be best in every role that could happen.

Think with the developers mindset! They have to balance the classes and it's easier to balance things this way when you design a class with a role associated with it. NB designed as a DPS. I tried the hard way to make a magicka NB a healer NB etc. but now it's clear to me I was swimming against the flow.

Siphoning strikes was too good in regaining resources. ZOS needs to deal with perma* and infinite* builds. This is just another example they finally started to do this. I support this mindset. It will be a long way and maybe there will be changes on this skill in the future but I see what they trying to do here.

Ipsius

You kind of contradict yourself when you say any class can play every role and then decide that NB should be just a DPS class.

You make the assumption (which isn't uncommon or even "wrong" necessarily) that there is a best Class X for role Y, and class Z "should" only play role Q. I just happen to disagree!

I've played magicka NB since launch and I've excelled as healer, tank, and DPS. It requires different skills, styles, and equipment, but versatility is a real class strength and Siphoning Attacks was a big part of that. My DPS and healing amounts were always smaller because of the damage penalty, but I could add DPS while healing and heal myself a lot as tank since I wasn't running out of resources as easily.

In the last major update, they gave siphoning skills a passive increase to heals when they're slotted. In this update, they gave sorcerers Empowered Ward morph an increase to heals done. If anything, these changes indicate that Zos WANTS and encourages any class to be good at any role they want. And that's awesome.

I look forward to whatever changes they will be making to the skill. I really hope they retain its utility and versatility, and will accept whatever trade-off they decide to implement to keep the skill balanced (as long as it's not a gall-blasted 10 second duration!!)

ABL

U know what ? I am nighblade tank. So no more stamina regen when i block. But...

They even nerf my class with syphon ability ,so now i need to spam syphon all 10s and waste magicka to have a chance to earn few ressources .

HA HA HA...T_T...

I am nightblade tank ,i cant block ,i cant regen with my syphon, what i do now?

I need magicka to use syphon and i need stamina to use block, this is crazy, what that class has done to devs to be so mutilated?