Siphoning Strikes?

hrothbern

Tannus15 wrote: »

Yeah, this almost entirely looks like something ZOS had to do to deal with the fact that siphon NB tanks would be far superior to everyone else with the stamina block nerf.

You want your siphon back? Get ZOS to ditch the Tank nerf.

ZOS doing something about the perma block is fine with me.... as long as the "tank role" can still function, also for normal MMO players.

But this Siphoning Action destroys a whole class line of the NB.

IF it does not change, I will level an alt, a Dragon Knight, and pick up my beloved tanking role again with a DK, because a DK CAN stilkl tank after the Stamina Recovery nerf.
A NB NOT.

shugg

Im not on the pts as i play on console however i like some of the change to this skill, i would like to see a long duration on it and a scale able return. I have tanked with the pressmt skill and enjoy the way it worked, just found having it on both bars and taunt on each was annoying when there are some good skills out there to enjoy.

AssaultLemming

Castle wrote: »

t.claudio.usnub18_ESO wrote: »

So it's no longer a toggle so whats this mean?
Does this mean that so long as you have it on your bars you will gain this effect?
Is it a passive skill like a Templars Restoring Aura?
Is it a short term buff like like Two Handed Momentum?

It is a standard Buff with a duration of 10s per activation.

This is terrible. Short term buffs are a plague in this game already. 60 seconds please.

AssaultLemming

Ipsius wrote: »

It feels awful. I decided to try out the new revamped grim focus too. Then I realized, someone using grim focus AND siphoning attacks gets to recast siphoning attacks every 10 seconds and grim focus every 4 attacks. What fun!

And rally, and blur, and camo Hunter

Xeniph

Yes, this is a bad change.

Buffs most NB's maintain-

Blur- 26s
Grim focus- 20s (More like 10s, if you use spectral bow. As you have to refresh it to get the bow to proc again.)
Camo hunter- 15 seconds ( and has to be refreshed IN stealth now)

And now you want to add another one? 10 seconds no less.

By the time we are done buffing, it will be time to refresh them again.

Artis

I actually don't feel it's too bad of a change for tanks, but it will be such a pain for dps. I mean, magicka NB were already so difficult to play for such a low dps compared to all other classes/builds, too many things to track - all the dots +mark target+ grim focus, which had to pressed twice to be renewed. Now siphoning attacks seem to be very unrewarding to use as well. 10s for very small regeneration.. meh, either make it very powerful (which would mean people would still abuse it - click every 10s and have infinite resources) or make it last much longer.. or a combination of both

Farorin

I didn't really use it in the first place, but now it is even less appealing, but like with the pre-nerf siphoning strikes, I will give this skill a go again before cementing my decision.

Vegaroth

good way to ruin a good skill

R0M2K

10s buff.... Worst case scenario, thanks for making me focus on FCT numbers instead of actual gameplay screen. (Yeah visuals but still theres so many of them applying ontop of each other that is irrelevant.)

helediron

Ten secons is too short. It is not in line with other buffs like grim, blur, shades etc. Cast every ten seconds is even harder dps drop than previous debuff because it removes one dps ability cast. Ten seconds is not at all usable for weapon swapping.

And at the same time fix the grim focus too so that spectral arrow reactivates itself so that we don't need to double click it. It's too clunky now.

I suggest the dev team makes a magicka nb and test their dps. Try both single target and AoE fights e.g. in Sanctum. Try tanking Mantikora with Saptank.

Rune_Relic

R0M2K wrote: »

10s buff.... Worst case scenario, thanks for making me focus on FCT numbers instead of actual gameplay screen. (Yeah visuals but still theres so many of them applying ontop of each other that is irrelevant.)

this

@ZOS ...Are we supposed to be immersed in combat or clock watching ?
Consistency please.

I am NB stamina tank. This is going to hurt.
The problem was not with syphoning attacks.
The problem was with Heal/Regen/damaga on hit skills + aoe procs like caltrops.
ie.. caltrop builds.

If you made it proc on per cast rather than per AoE hit...the infinity builds would have been eradicated.
Can you fix the relationship with multiple procs rather than make a skill redundant.
Did you see that video the other day with stacked experthunter in craglorn using caltrops ?
One shot everything as soon as it spawned.

Increasing regen with damage was always a bad idea as you then create
TANK + DPS combo builds.
The idea was either or..... and not and ?
I think you need to rethink the meta so it doenst actually encourage and allow combo builds without penalty/compromise.
This may have been the intent here....maybe....but it hurts everyone and not just the infinity builds.

Solanum

Well, I feel like a bit of a moron for being so happy about the change, after briefly testing it on the PTS it is indeed as many have pointed out in this thread, not very enjoyable.

Leeching strikes is near useless, in both old and new version.

Giving up one of our five skill slots should merit something nice, so for example, this is what I would like to see:

Siphoning strikes:
Imbue your weapon with soul stealing-power.
Each attack restores at least 3% magicka and stamina and has a chance to restore 15%
When activated your.... (pick one of the following!)

damage is halved, but you restore twice as much of your resources.
damage is increased, but your abilities cost twice as much.
damage is increased, but you no longer restore magicka and stamina.
summon an angry specter that proceeds to attack your enemies.

...for ten seconds.

Siphoning attacks:
Does the same as Siphoning strikes, except that all attacks have a chance of restoring 15%

Leeching strikes:
Does the same as Siphoning strikes, except that it also restores health, and has a chance to restore 15% health.

Castle

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Can you activate multiple Assassin's Will's back to back within the duration?

Or does the console/pts have an animation/aduio bug?

No, you can only do one Assassin's Will within the duration of the effect. It sounds like an Animation/Audio bug.

Spiderwebs

After testing this all last night, this is agonizing. I've played a nb tank since a little after launch, and siphoning strikes had always been the bread-and-butter skill, since we don't have a self-heal or damage shields or even a aoe cc or anything. That's the trade-off, and it made for an interesting, fun, active style of tanking.

Now it's just clunky and painful. Ten seconds means that I'm constantly flipping bars to desperately try to keep my buffs up, trying to not die and try to get a couple hits in to restore my flagging resources (which, by the way, is a waste of effort -
It rarely restores as much magicka as it costs now) before something hits me too hard and I can't recover. We don't have an "oh ***" button. A tank can't cloak and run and away from the mantikora.

I'm completely crushed by this change. Nb tanking is my all-time favorite thing in this game, but at this rate, I'm going to have to level a dk like everyone else and retire her. It's no longer worth the struggle. Please, please take another look at it. I don't know what about it warranted such a change in the first place, but as someone said above, it's completely destroying a whole class of nightblades.

Aerathnor

Sounds rough, hopefully it will either get a duration increase or become a true passive.

Arkh__Longstride

NB tank is dead if this goes live.Just not worth the pain

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Spiderwebs wrote: »

After testing this all last night, this is agonizing. I've played a nb tank since a little after launch, and siphoning strikes had always been the bread-and-butter skill, since we don't have a self-heal or damage shields or even a aoe cc or anything. That's the trade-off, and it made for an interesting, fun, active style of tanking.

Now it's just clunky and painful. Ten seconds means that I'm constantly flipping bars to desperately try to keep my buffs up, trying to not die and try to get a couple hits in to restore my flagging resources (which, by the way, is a waste of effort -
It rarely restores as much magicka as it costs now) before something hits me too hard and I can't recover. We don't have an "oh ***" button. A tank can't cloak and run and away from the mantikora.

I'm completely crushed by this change. Nb tanking is my all-time favorite thing in this game, but at this rate, I'm going to have to level a dk like everyone else and retire her. It's no longer worth the struggle. Please, please take another look at it. I don't know what about it warranted such a change in the first place, but as someone said above, it's completely destroying a whole class of nightblades.

Same here. Been playing an Argonian NB tank since 5-day early access of PC launch, and SA has been a cornerstone of that build ever since. First they took away potion effectiveness from Argonians and NBs and effectively made Argonians the weakest race in the game and crippled NB burst healing (also thanks to increased potion cooldown), and now this change to SA on top of the insulting 2% increase to stat return on potions for Argonians. This change seems to be a knee-jerk balance to the change to halting stamina regen while blocking, and effectively makes NB tanks less desirable in groups. I've always loved tanking on this character and recently NB tanks were starting to get recognition as solid choices in end-game, but now? I just hope they change it before it goes live.

Like others have said: Leave it as it is, since removing melee attack status from Caltrops and also making SA not proc off each hit of an AoE is enough to balance it.

Cherryblossom

Hoodster92_ESO wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

ugh, well, guess I'm retiring my NB tank.

I am trying to wrap my head around how as a NB tank we can be effective making leaderboard times?? With Caltrops and Siphoning Strikes I could do dps while tanking which DK tanks and Templar tanks were already doing..... Now I am not sure if my NB tank will be effective..... unless all tanks get hit this way NB tanks will only be good for raid tanking.

Which tanks get a skill that are permanently on, all the others need to recast their skills! This change sure gives you an extra slot!

starkerealm

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Like others have said: Leave it as it is, since removing melee attack status from Caltrops and also making SA not proc off each hit of an AoE is enough to balance it.

Or just change the existing ability to not proc off of a persistent AoE like Caltrops and Path.

hrothbern

starkerealm wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Like others have said: Leave it as it is, since removing melee attack status from Caltrops and also making SA not proc off each hit of an AoE is enough to balance it.

Or just change the existing ability to not proc off of a persistent AoE like Caltrops and Path.

Very much : Indeed

We need with SA every hit of Sape Essence, but we do NOT need subsequent hits of Path and Caltrops

ZOS_GinaBruno

Just to follow up on this, we are aware of the issues reported in this thread, and are looking into making some additional changes and improvements to Siphoning Strikes. Overall, the goal is to have the ability remain useful to tanks, while also being effective for other play styles. Thanks again for everyone's feedback, we are reading it.

hrothbern

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to follow up on this, we are aware of the issues reported in this thread, and are looking into making some additional changes and improvements to Siphoning Strikes. Overall, the goal is to have the ability remain useful to tanks, while also being effective for other play styles. Thanks again for everyone's feedback, we are reading it.

Appreciated :-)

Turelus

10 Seconds does seem a little short for this skill especially from a tanking point of view.

I would have to wait to see the regain values listed here (sorry if I missed them) or test myself on PTS.

Mostly I see this becoming a quick fire skill followed by a spam of light/skill attacks when resources are low. Which adds an interesting dynamic to the skill.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

hrothbern wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Like others have said: Leave it as it is, since removing melee attack status from Caltrops and also making SA not proc off each hit of an AoE is enough to balance it.

Or just change the existing ability to not proc off of a persistent AoE like Caltrops and Path.

Very much : Indeed

We need with SA every hit of Sape Essence, but we do NOT need subsequent hits of Path and Caltrops

That would be ideal, but it just depends on how things are coded probably and how that can most easily be tweaked. Ground-target AoEs should not proc it for each hit/target, but instant AoE attacks should proc for each hit/target then?

SturgeHammer

Spiderwebs wrote: »

After testing this all last night, this is agonizing. I've played a nb tank since a little after launch, and siphoning strikes had always been the bread-and-butter skill, since we don't have a self-heal or damage shields or even a aoe cc or anything. That's the trade-off, and it made for an interesting, fun, active style of tanking.

Now it's just clunky and painful. Ten seconds means that I'm constantly flipping bars to desperately try to keep my buffs up, trying to not die and try to get a couple hits in to restore my flagging resources (which, by the way, is a waste of effort -
It rarely restores as much magicka as it costs now) before something hits me too hard and I can't recover. We don't have an "oh ***" button. A tank can't cloak and run and away from the mantikora.

I'm completely crushed by this change. Nb tanking is my all-time favorite thing in this game, but at this rate, I'm going to have to level a dk like everyone else and retire her. It's no longer worth the struggle. Please, please take another look at it. I don't know what about it warranted such a change in the first place, but as someone said above, it's completely destroying a whole class of nightblades.

Siphoning Strikes was pretty much the main resource management engine on my NB tank and, even though I haven't tried this out yet on PTS, I don't think I like the way this sounds. 10 Seconds is just way too short for this effect. It should be at least 30 seconds or go back to being a toggle. Sure, the down side of the pre-IC strikes was real and made it awkward for damage dealers, but it was Ideal for tanks, which is who I always assumed this ability was designed for.

WhiskeyJac

Regain values are pretty low compared to previous values initially it was 15% now it somewhere around 2-3% I think bye bye NB Tank

ThatNeonZebraAgain

SturgeHammer wrote: »

Spiderwebs wrote: »

After testing this all last night, this is agonizing. I've played a nb tank since a little after launch, and siphoning strikes had always been the bread-and-butter skill, since we don't have a self-heal or damage shields or even a aoe cc or anything. That's the trade-off, and it made for an interesting, fun, active style of tanking.

Now it's just clunky and painful. Ten seconds means that I'm constantly flipping bars to desperately try to keep my buffs up, trying to not die and try to get a couple hits in to restore my flagging resources (which, by the way, is a waste of effort -
It rarely restores as much magicka as it costs now) before something hits me too hard and I can't recover. We don't have an "oh ***" button. A tank can't cloak and run and away from the mantikora.

I'm completely crushed by this change. Nb tanking is my all-time favorite thing in this game, but at this rate, I'm going to have to level a dk like everyone else and retire her. It's no longer worth the struggle. Please, please take another look at it. I don't know what about it warranted such a change in the first place, but as someone said above, it's completely destroying a whole class of nightblades.

Siphoning Strikes was pretty much the main resource management engine on my NB tank and, even though I haven't tried this out yet on PTS, I don't think I like the way this sounds. 10 Seconds is just way too short for this effect. It should be at least 30 seconds or go back to being a toggle. Sure, the down side of the pre-IC strikes was real and made it awkward for damage dealers, but it was Ideal for tanks, which is who I always assumed this ability was designed for.

Not to mention, the Magicka cost of the ability is double what it replenishes. Most times it won't even "pay for itself" so to speak. The toggle and damage penalty was the right way to go for this.

starkerealm

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Like others have said: Leave it as it is, since removing melee attack status from Caltrops and also making SA not proc off each hit of an AoE is enough to balance it.

Or just change the existing ability to not proc off of a persistent AoE like Caltrops and Path.

Very much : Indeed

We need with SA every hit of Sape Essence, but we do NOT need subsequent hits of Path and Caltrops

That would be ideal, but it just depends on how things are coded probably and how that can most easily be tweaked. Ground-target AoEs should not proc it for each hit/target, but instant AoE attacks should proc for each hit/target then?

Assuming the code base supports it, an ideal solution would be that it can't proc multiple times off the same target hit for a single casting, and has an AoE cap of 4 or 6.

Though, blocking persistent effects and only allowing DoTs to proc once would be ideal.

Taking it off a toggle just feels wrong to me. Temporary Buff tanking feels like more of a DK approach to life. Though, to be fair, if the DKs had more toggles than refreshing buffs, I'd probably use mine more.

hrothbern

Turelus wrote: »

10 Seconds does seem a little short for this skill especially from a tanking point of view.

I would have to wait to see the regain values listed here (sorry if I missed them) or test myself on PTS.

Mostly I see this becoming a quick fire skill followed by a spam of light/skill attacks when resources are low. Which adds an interesting dynamic to the skill.

I tested a couple of hours ago: with Jewelry 3x198 Mag Cost reduction, 7x HA the Cost of Siphoning attacks is 1118 Mag for 10 seconds and the regain is 10% of 1891. So on Average, IF you would per 10 seconds ONLY cast 1x Siphoning Attacks the net gain on SA would be 1891-1118= 774 Mag..... Nowhere close to pay even 1x Sap Essence.

SturgeHammer

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

SturgeHammer wrote: »

Spiderwebs wrote: »

After testing this all last night, this is agonizing. I've played a nb tank since a little after launch, and siphoning strikes had always been the bread-and-butter skill, since we don't have a self-heal or damage shields or even a aoe cc or anything. That's the trade-off, and it made for an interesting, fun, active style of tanking.

Now it's just clunky and painful. Ten seconds means that I'm constantly flipping bars to desperately try to keep my buffs up, trying to not die and try to get a couple hits in to restore my flagging resources (which, by the way, is a waste of effort -
It rarely restores as much magicka as it costs now) before something hits me too hard and I can't recover. We don't have an "oh ***" button. A tank can't cloak and run and away from the mantikora.

I'm completely crushed by this change. Nb tanking is my all-time favorite thing in this game, but at this rate, I'm going to have to level a dk like everyone else and retire her. It's no longer worth the struggle. Please, please take another look at it. I don't know what about it warranted such a change in the first place, but as someone said above, it's completely destroying a whole class of nightblades.

Siphoning Strikes was pretty much the main resource management engine on my NB tank and, even though I haven't tried this out yet on PTS, I don't think I like the way this sounds. 10 Seconds is just way too short for this effect. It should be at least 30 seconds or go back to being a toggle. Sure, the down side of the pre-IC strikes was real and made it awkward for damage dealers, but it was Ideal for tanks, which is who I always assumed this ability was designed for.

Not to mention, the Magicka cost of the ability is double what it replenishes. Most times it won't even "pay for itself" so to speak. The toggle and damage penalty was the right way to go for this.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, I think the the way to go here would be to get rid of the toggle and make the resource siphoning, and the old drawback, a passive for just having it on the skill bar. Then you could activate (similar mechanics to restoring aura), for a magicka cost to remove the damage drawback for X seconds.

I think this would allow it to be good for tanks, and at least an option for other play styles.