Siphoning Strikes?

Draehl

septvestige wrote: »

Every class can play every role in this game but let's face it for example NB is a DPS class. It is designed like that and it should excel in that role specially.
Noone wants a Tamriel populated only by Nightblades. If NB can be best in every role that could happen.

Every class should be good at different aspects of each role. Committing each class to a role only trivializes core design behind the weapon/armor/open skill bar design of the game. I would instantly quit if there was a sudden declaration that they didn't intend to at least design everyone to be close in effectiveness.

Do I have a problem that DKs are the best tanks or Templars the best healers? No. But they need to continue to work towards "close enough" balancing, again where other classes have perks in situations. NB healers are significantly more difficult to play than templars, but we do well in very long fights and can offer a little supplemental DPS. I'm fine with that distinction.

Siphoning strikes was too good in regaining resources.

Only OP within the context of the block changes. Prior to that it was balanced in that there was a defined drawback. I'll admit the skill needs a nerf now, but the current mandatory "buff" method has got to go in lieu of something else.
 

naturegroup

So there was a broken game mechanic that involved siphoning attacks procing on DOT effects.... so in order to fix this they decided to nerf siphoning attacks soo hard that it becomes useless (destroying 50% of magicka NB builds) rather than fixing the broken mechanic??

Someone please tell me that I've got this wrong

P.S sorry that I've got nothing constructive to say, too stupid and lazy to try and help with a solution (I love the game and can't wait for imperial city to come to the live servers)

Arkh__Longstride

A core mechanic of NB gone, like that. NB tank is dead and a lot of magika build are screwed. No words

naturegroup

Here's to hoping if enough of us voice our distress they'll reverse the change

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

I don't think this really needs to be reverted - just either increased in effectiveness so that it matches the old 3 and 15% and make it last for 20 seconds OR make it 5% and 20% and leave it at 10 seconds.

kojou

Used this in PTS and decided it was too cumbersome to keep refreshing for the small benefit it provides. If it is goes live like it is I will definitely not spend skill points on it.

MY thoughts in order of preference:

1. Leave all the values and the toggling alone and make it not proc on DOT if it must be changed.
2. Make it last > 20 seconds and increase the values to 3 and 15%
3. Remove it altogether and just replace it with a large push button heal like Breath of Life.

Anyone else try it in PTS and have other thoughts?

fyrnas

Just leave it useless and buff DKs with something new..maybe if they add some healing skills to DKs it will be nice...everybody should be playing DKs cuz its just almost best class for everything..except healing so fixt that!!..we wana DK healers! *** this others classes!

I hate this..this was only reason why play NB tank against other classes. And as others are saying..this skill was ok...other skills like clatrops etc. are bad. But i think all of us know how is ZoS working..if somebody have headache they just cut his head down.

p.s. DK is only class im not playing cuz its so shiny (that is balance in real:) )

kojou

fyrnas wrote: »

Just leave it useless and buff DKs with something new..maybe if they add some healing skills to DKs it will be nice...everybody should be playing DKs cuz its just almost best class for everything..except healing so fixt that!!..we wana DK healers! *** this others classes!

I hate this..this was only reason why play NB tank against other classes. And as others are saying..this skill was ok...other skills like clatrops etc. are bad. But i think all of us know how is ZoS working..if somebody have headache they just cut his head down.

p.s. DK is only class im not playing cuz its so shiny (that is balance in real:) )

Fortunately I have a VR14 Nightblade, a VR14 Dragon Knight, and I am working on a VR10 Templar, so whatever the FOTM is I will be covered. ZOS nerfs Nightblades, I play my DK, etc... The only thing I may never have is a Sorc. I just don't like the play style.

Celas_Dranacea

Please just make the duration a bit longer and I'll be cool with it. I think the really skilled players who are willing to practice this will see that it's pretty freakin good. 20 seconds or even 15 seconds will go
Along way to calming folks down.

kogadrake

naturegroup wrote: »

So there was a broken game mechanic that involved siphoning attacks procing on DOT effects.... so in order to fix this they decided to nerf siphoning attacks soo hard that it becomes useless (destroying 50% of magicka NB builds) rather than fixing the broken mechanic??

Most top end magicka DPS builds I read only use SA for sustained AOE... single target there is no need for it with proper gear/build and ~50+ CP... and well 100% sustained AoE with 5+ targets, even at 83% dmg was a bit OP...

The skill needed some changes, and add in the tank aspect with the block stamina changes, it really needed a change... They may not have got the change correct in the first attempt, but they got this message and hopefully what makes it to live will be better then whats on PTS, and if not it will get adjusted again, it is an MMO after all, skills will be changed multiple times before proper balance happens, and by the time it is perfect other changes in the game will force another balance, its just how these things go..

naturegroup

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Please just make the duration a bit longer and I'll be cool with it. I think the really skilled players who are willing to practice this will see that it's pretty freakin good. 20 seconds or even 15 seconds will go
Along way to calming folks down.

Did you see any of the previous posts explaining that your overall rescource regeneration will be absolutely tiny due to the cost of the skill

Even an increase in duration won't really make this a worthwhile slot
( haven't tested it myself yet so I'm just going whith what the majority have said)

SturgeHammer

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_JasonLeavey , this discussion has been active for a few days now, could we get an update in today's Q&A on the current status of Siphoning Strikes after receiving all this feedback?

Ashtaris

The thing that get's me is that ZOS has this mantra of "Play As You Want" and then takes the giant nerf hammer to skills and passives that allows you to do so! My wife was really getting to love playing a NB tank and from what we have seen on the PTS so far, the changes are going to kill that playstyle. With all the nerfs to NB regen passives, no stam regen while blocking, Siphoning Strikes, the WW stam passive, and other changes, she is just about ready to give up.

Satiar

Any update on this? Heard there were a few changes

Draehl

(Per the Q&A) They are going to have one morph that keeps the toggle + damage reduction and another morph that is duration based without the penalty. I hope for the sake of the second morph they make it at least 15 seconds and a very, very low cost.

I'll be sticking to the toggle for AoE packs.

actosh

Draehl wrote: »

(Per the Q&A) They are going to have one morph that keeps the toggle + damage reduction and another morph that is duration based without the penalty. I hope for the sake of the second morph they make it at least 15 seconds and a very, very low cost.

I'll be sticking to the toggle for AoE packs.

Nice. Nbs can still permablock then if they give the 1.6 version........

helediron

This SA works effectively as mana-to-stamina converter but it does not work as mana sustainability tool. I think if they make those two morphs, the timed version should be free-to-cast, or it should have some major magicka buff, and must be at least 20 seconds. Currently it simply doesn't do any good and does not keep Sap Essence sustainable. It is probably more useful for Steel Tornado but i tested only magicka nb. In live Steel Tornado is sustainable with e.g. three pieces of Air set and does still stronger damage than Sap Essence.

Overall i wish devs look again the skill for magicka nightblades together with Sap Essence and Funnel Health. The PvE build still does significantly less damage than stamina versions and has to wear light armor and dual wield to pass 10k damage. At melee range the sustainability and survivability is poor and damage was mediocre. At range damage is even less. Tested in IC two dungeons.

For the toggle consider if it could have Inner Light features, so i wouldn't need to use two toggles. Compare to DK FOO.

naturegroup

Thanks for keeping the toggle feature, this has absolutely saved my NB dps build, although now I'm wondering: will the toggle be the same as it is in live right now or will there be a few changes to it?

These are just suggestions, never tanked in game before so some might be a bit stupid but I guess every little helps right so here I go

You could change the damage debuff on the toggle to a drains health effect while active

You could make the non toggle morph scale so when your health is low it restores lots of rescource but when full it restores a smaller amount (might create a new risky play style)

You could make the non toggle restore rescource based on damage done but have a very short duration which might create a nice combo with merciless resolve or shadowy disguise (people would burst damage when they needed rescources)

You could make the toggle restore a high amount with a damaging attack, but has a cool down, (would solve the aoe perma blocking)

You could make the toggle restore lots of rescources if you have low dps but restore small amounts when your dps is high (if that's even possible it might create a bargain where tanks have to balance between aggro and keeping rescources).

You could make the toggle reduce healing taken instead of a damage debuff

You could change the toggle so that it restores more rescources with each consecutive light attack (up to a limit ofcourse, maybe up to 8% or something) would be useful for NB healers aswell, give them a better alternative to heavy attacking with a resto staff

Or you guys could keep the toggle exactly the same as it is in live right now (which I would be perfectly happy about)

Draehl

I like the idea of the toggle version gaining a more severe damage penalty (20%?), nerfing the stamina/magicka return to counter perma-blocking, but having it also restore health.

snackrat

What if they keep the frame of 10sec, but make the cast cost free? Like Templar's.. Repentance, is it?

Last I saw it took more mana to CAST it then you would regain, so overall, just terrible for actual recovery. Make it a button you pop every now and then to recover a bit. Unlike Repentance, which restores a huge amount at once, it would still require you to actually make attacks, the restoration from which is pretty terrible.

And if they wanted to nerf the amount restored, why not make the percentage restored... smaller? If they want it to be viable for ALL builds, then percentage is GOOD, because then the most commonly used ones (mag, or stam) - which DPS and healers (ie NOT TANKS) depend in ENTIRELY, would recover better (seeing as they will have upgraded attributes to increase those).
Percentage based means SS would mostly restore whatever stat you most upgraded, what with it being the most important to you, making it all-around amazing.

Xeniph

According to the latest ESO Live, they are looking at reverting one morph to the original form, a toggle. And leaving one morph like it is on pts.
We'll have to see how that plays out.

Ipsius

That leaves me curious as to whether the toggle will restore a % and the self-buff will restore a set amount of resources... whether either of them returns HP... whether they increased the duration of the self buff... So many questions!

Will they be updating the PTS when they do normal server maintenance on Monday?

Shuichi

So glad its not a toggle anymore, now this means it can work for both of your weapons without having to double slot the skill. People always look at the negatives here

hrothbern

We double slot to prevent a free of cost re-activating !!!
In case we swap bars
So an active ability is most expensive

Emma_Overload

Arkh__Longstride wrote: »

A core mechanic of NB gone, like that. NB tank is dead and a lot of magika build are screwed. No words

This is EXACTLY like what they did to Sorcs when they nerfed Surge heals.

I guess now I can forget about leveling that NB alt I was going to use just because Siphoning was so awesome

Ipsius

Shuichi wrote: »

So glad its not a toggle anymore, now this means it can work for both of your weapons without having to double slot the skill. People always look at the negatives here

Have you gotten to test it? The issue was the substantial MP cost combined with only 10 second duration that made the self buff much, much more annoying to use than the toggle. It still has to pass through the EU server's PTS so hopefully they can refine it a bit more.

With the changes from the "Ask Us Anything," the morphs seem to be a choice between: Toggle (convenience but damage reduction) vs Self buff (inconvenience, no damage reduction).

Anytime a choice is inconvenience + advantage vs convenience + disadvantage, I think it's kind of lame...

Ipsius

I do appreciate them listening, though. The morphs seem to be "tank morph-toggle" and "everyone else morph- self buff". Even with the -17% damage/healing, I still always used Siphoning Attacks for both healing and tanking.





Whatever they change the self buff to, I hope it's not as bulky and annoying as a 10 second buff...

actosh wrote: »

Draehl wrote: »

(Per the Q&A) They are going to have one morph that keeps the toggle + damage reduction and another morph that is duration based without the penalty. I hope for the sake of the second morph they make it at least 15 seconds and a very, very low cost.

I'll be sticking to the toggle for AoE packs.

Nice. Nbs can still permablock then if they give the 1.6 version........

Yeah... What can they even do about that if they're leaving one morph as a toggle? They said in the "ask us anything" that the reason they changed the skill was to make it usable by everyone, not just tanks, and they didn't change it specifically to prevent NB tank from infinitely blocking.

I would use it as a toggle OR a self buff so long as it's way, way longer duration than 10 seconds (or as has been said a hundred times in this thread, an effect on slot with an additional effect on activate). The only real variable is what the return numbers/percentages are going to be adjusted to.

Granzadabur

I really love playing nightblade khajiit and with further patch it will make khajiit's much better with robust constitution for stamina builds.
What I don't like is:
1) why are refreshing shadows "adjusted" from 30% stamina regen to 15% magicka ,stamina , health regen? I personally like the stamina only regen more and I consider this a nerf
2) I really like the current siphoning strikes attack and I would be really sad to see it change like this

Jovaras

Please, oh please, do not screw NB tanks and leave one morph like it is in Live. People like to see tanking NB's instead of DK's everywhere. I've played as NB tank since day 1 and this skill is the core.

P.S. I've made forum account for this post, although I've played ESO since day 1.

Xandryah

PLEASE, make the duration of the buff last 20 seconds at least!! THANK YOU ^_^

it's an existential resource-buff that can't be expected to be continuously refreshed, especially during combat...