Siphoning Strikes?

Altyrann

Draehl wrote: »

Ipsius wrote: »

It feels awful. I decided to try out the new revamped grim focus too. Then I realized, someone using grim focus AND siphoning attacks gets to recast siphoning attacks every 10 seconds and grim focus every 4 attacks. What fun!

Slightly unrelated, but Grim Focus should require 5 attacks to proc, but casting the projectile should also re-activate the buff. This skill lacks flow, just like how Siphoning Attacks will if it becomes an activated skill.

It may be unrelated, but absolutely this. The clunky double click and having to check buff trackers to make sure you got timing right is just plain horrible, and as an added bonus is something you almost never get to practice outside bosses to get used to.

Draehl

Altyrann wrote: »

- Clicking a button every 10 seconds did not fill my life with joy and wonder

And that is where the problem lies... Clearly, the intent is to adjust the skill so we can't keep permablocking, but they went and hurt the flow of combat in the process.

Ipsius

If that's the intent, simply lower the amount restored or lower the proc chance. 3% restore on normal attack with a 10% chance on other skills for 1,000 extra resource restore instead of 1,700? 5% chance on other attacks instead of 10%? Anything but making it something to recast.

If you are using Grim Focus and Siphoning Attacks on cooldown, you are rebuffing yourself 540 times an hour. 540 is assuming Grim Focus goes for the full 20 seconds; it takes 4 light attacks before you can utilize the arrow thingy and recast it, so cooldown could potentially be 4 seconds. Combined with Siphoning Attacks, that would make it 1,260 self buffs an hour.

Who on EARTH thinks that's fun or smooth gameplay??

I've played on the pts, and just TESTING it was agonizing. @ZOS_GinaBruno , can you please forward this to the relevant parties so they can have a second look at the change to Siphoning Strikes/Attacks before the patch goes live? I didn't realize until I did the math how annoying this change really is.

Altyrann

Ipsius wrote: »

If that's the intent, simply lower the amount restored or lower the proc chance. 3% restore on normal attack with a 10% chance on other skills for 1,000 extra resource restore instead of 1,700? 5% chance on other attacks instead of 10%? Anything but making it something to recast.

If you are using Grim Focus and Siphoning Attacks on cooldown, you are rebuffing yourself 540 times an hour. 540 is assuming Grim Focus goes for the full 20 seconds; it takes 4 light attacks before you can utilize the arrow thingy and recast it, so cooldown could potentially be 4 seconds. Combined with Siphoning Attacks, that would make it 1,260 self buffs an hour.

Who on EARTH thinks that's fun or smooth gameplay??

I've played on the pts, and just TESTING it was agonizing. @ZOS_GinaBruno , can you please forward this to the relevant parties so they can have a second look at the change to Siphoning Strikes/Attacks before the patch goes live? I didn't realize until I did the math how annoying this change really is.

While I agree about the quality of life irritation from constant rebuffing (bear in mind that we are probably clicking a button every second during fights either way, possibly 2 if weaving, so it is less number of clicks and more disruption of flow), I would strongly disagree that lowering the amount restored is the right lever to pull for balance.

Previously it was an interesting choice of pretty much permanent sustain vs. damage/healing. The new version, in a different way, gives almost entirely the same result, as you basically spend one cast every 10 seconds (hence losing damage/healing) in return for sustain. In my opinion, to make sure the skill remains interesting, it needs to offer enough benefit meaningfully to change gameplay (permanent sustain while using aoe, for example, is an interesting change - running out of resources slightly more slowly less so), it needs an appropriate cost to maintain balance, and it needs a practical mechanic.

For the benefit, I think it is just a case of tweaking proc rate/amount recovered, which hopefully is something PTS testing can inform. I am certainly going to keep testing with different gear/enchants and see what works well. Personally (and this is purely from a PvE persepctive) I would like this skill to basically take you to a position where you have permanent sustain, but with a commensurate cost (see below). From early tests it doesn't feel like it is there yet.

To balance this, a cost similar to live where you take a flat hit on damage/healing seems sensible. If it is a toggle, this cost would be active when the benefit was active.

I think there is scope to add some more variety to both the cost and the mechanic by saying you get some lower amount of sustain purely for slotting the skill (cost there is loss of the skill slot which you could have used elsewhere) and then can toggle it on for substantially higher sustain at a cost of reduced damage/healing (maybe even have only a damage penalty - this could both boost NB healing and would be a boon for solo players).

Ipsius

Altyrann wrote: »

Ipsius wrote: »

If that's the intent, simply lower the amount restored or lower the proc chance. 3% restore on normal attack with a 10% chance on other skills for 1,000 extra resource restore instead of 1,700? 5% chance on other attacks instead of 10%? Anything but making it something to recast.

If you are using Grim Focus and Siphoning Attacks on cooldown, you are rebuffing yourself 540 times an hour. 540 is assuming Grim Focus goes for the full 20 seconds; it takes 4 light attacks before you can utilize the arrow thingy and recast it, so cooldown could potentially be 4 seconds. Combined with Siphoning Attacks, that would make it 1,260 self buffs an hour.

Who on EARTH thinks that's fun or smooth gameplay??

I've played on the pts, and just TESTING it was agonizing. @ZOS_GinaBruno , can you please forward this to the relevant parties so they can have a second look at the change to Siphoning Strikes/Attacks before the patch goes live? I didn't realize until I did the math how annoying this change really is.

While I agree about the quality of life irritation from constant rebuffing (bear in mind that we are probably clicking a button every second during fights either way, possibly 2 if weaving, so it is less number of clicks and more disruption of flow), I would strongly disagree that lowering the amount restored is the right lever to pull for balance.

Previously it was an interesting choice of pretty much permanent sustain vs. damage/healing. The new version, in a different way, gives almost entirely the same result, as you basically spend one cast every 10 seconds (hence losing damage/healing) in return for sustain. In my opinion, to make sure the skill remains interesting, it needs to offer enough benefit meaningfully to change gameplay (permanent sustain while using aoe, for example, is an interesting change - running out of resources slightly more slowly less so), it needs an appropriate cost to maintain balance, and it needs a practical mechanic.

For the benefit, I think it is just a case of tweaking proc rate/amount recovered, which hopefully is something PTS testing can inform. I am certainly going to keep testing with different gear/enchants and see what works well. Personally (and this is purely from a PvE persepctive) I would like this skill to basically take you to a position where you have permanent sustain, but with a commensurate cost (see below). From early tests it doesn't feel like it is there yet.

To balance this, a cost similar to live where you take a flat hit on damage/healing seems sensible. If it is a toggle, this cost would be active when the benefit was active.

I think there is scope to add some more variety to both the cost and the mechanic by saying you get some lower amount of sustain purely for slotting the skill (cost there is loss of the skill slot which you could have used elsewhere) and then can toggle it on for substantially higher sustain at a cost of reduced damage/healing (maybe even have only a damage penalty - this could both boost NB healing and would be a boon for solo players).

That sounds reasonable. A passive regain while on the par, with an "on activate" effect for a set period of time that sacrifices damage for increased regain (if I'm understanding you correctly). This, and so many other suggestions, are so much better than what they chose to implement that I simply don't understand it. I truly hope they make some serious modifications in the coming weeks...

Altyrann

The on activate bit could either be for x seconds or a toggle. Either way the idea is that it would be high benefit vs. cost used to change gameplay in specific situations rather than a low benefit for low cost with no particular impact beyond the need to rebuff often.

Ipsius

And my emphasis on the button presses wasn't to imply we wouldn't be pressing all those buttons anyway ;-) More to emphasize that that massive number of button presses won't feel meaningful and are largely extra compared to a toggle.

When you press an attack, you perform the attack and do damage; that feels like you're accomplishing something. When you use a long duration buff, you are setting up everything to follow; you feel like it's worth using it for every 20-30+ seconds. When you have a toggle, you know it's effect is worth the spot it's taking up on one or both of your bars, and you don't have to think about it after you toggle it on.

The way Siphoning Attacks is on the PTS is an unfulfilling button press for extremely temporary marginal resource regen. There's no impact of damage, there's no satisfaction of accomplishing very much... and on top of that... every... 10... seconds. It's simply annoying at that point.

Draehl

To play off your idea as well as to avoid problems with blocking...

Give it a passive effect (when slotted, similar to Molten Whip) that reduces cost of magicka/stamina abilities only by a percentage. Lets call it 5% for example.

Give it an activated effect where attacks/skills regenerate resources at a very low rate and/or power attacks generate significantly more resources. Tack on a damage penalty as necessary.


The trick being to build enough of the power of the skill into the reduced skill cost and/or power attack resource bonus so we achieve...

A ) Weak enough to not sufficiently sustain permablocking.
and
B ) Weak enough to warrant a duration long enough that it is not cumbersome.

Rescorla_ESO

Wisler89 wrote: »

Castle wrote: »

t.claudio.usnub18_ESO wrote: »

So it's no longer a toggle so whats this mean?
Does this mean that so long as you have it on your bars you will gain this effect?
Is it a passive skill like a Templars Restoring Aura?
Is it a short term buff like like Two Handed Momentum?

It is a standard Buff with a duration of 10s per activation.

Why are you doing this? This Nerf (and yes I consider this a nerf for Siphoning Strikes) killed the reason why I play NB-Tank. I was sooo looking forward to tank more with my NB, thanks to the no-regen nerf while blocking.

I can guarantee that 99% of NB-players will no longer use this skill, not in PvP, not in PvE

I guess I'm in the 1% who like this change. I think toggled skills that turn off when you switch weapon bars suck. I'm perfectly with refreshing this every 10 seconds if it means the buff applies to both weapon skill bars. AOE DPS should be significantly higher thanks to no longer having a penalty to weapon damage.

Altyrann

I agree about the lack of impact when you have to cast every 10 seconds. At least with a DoT, for example, you see the damage and timing it well gives maximum benefit. I am not a fan of toggles which are on full time (glaring at Inner Light taking a spot on both bars as I type) but do like those where you pick and choose where they help. On live, for example, I run pledges as a magicka tank, and toggle siphoning on when engaging large groups so I can block and heal the group with sap essence, but toggle it off for fights with single targets where only specific big attacks need blocking so I can help the group with more off healing/damage.

Strider_Roshin

Castle wrote: »

t.claudio.usnub18_ESO wrote: »

So it's no longer a toggle so whats this mean?
Does this mean that so long as you have it on your bars you will gain this effect?
Is it a passive skill like a Templars Restoring Aura?
Is it a short term buff like like Two Handed Momentum?

It is a standard Buff with a duration of 10s per activation.

10 seconds? Hahaha let me just throw this on the same bar as agony ;-)

Ipsius

Altyrann wrote: »

I agree about the lack of impact when you have to cast every 10 seconds. At least with a DoT, for example, you see the damage and timing it well gives maximum benefit. I am not a fan of toggles which are on full time (glaring at Inner Light taking a spot on both bars as I type) but do like those where you pick and choose where they help. On live, for example, I run pledges as a magicka tank, and toggle siphoning on when engaging large groups so I can block and heal the group with sap essence, but toggle it off for fights with single targets where only specific big attacks need blocking so I can help the group with more off healing/damage.

Right! It made magicka-tanking a possibility and added real versatility to a variety of builds. Perhaps it was too good at restoring resources, but you can always point to the substantial damage reduction as the tradeoff. Taking up a spot on one, potentially 2 bars is another tradeoff. I kept it on both bars simply because of the annoyance of having to toggle it back on, and now I'm looking at having to "toggle" it back on every 10 seconds.

What bothers me, even after "venting" on this forum, is that there are so many good, valid, balanced alternative ideas to adjust the skill meaningfully. It makes me wonder, how on earth did they land on the changes they chose?

Altyrann

Draehl wrote: »

To play off your idea as well as to avoid problems with blocking...

Give it a passive effect (when slotted, similar to Molten Whip) that reduces cost of magicka/stamina abilities only by a percentage. Lets call it 5% for example.

Give it an activated effect where attacks/skills regenerate resources at a very low rate and/or power attacks generate significantly more resources. Tack on a damage penalty as necessary.


The trick being to build enough of the power of the skill into the reduced skill cost and/or power attack resource bonus so we achieve...

A ) Weak enough to not sufficiently sustain permablocking.
and
B ) Weak enough to warrant a duration long enough that it is not cumbersome.

I do like the idea of a passive cost reduction as a starting point. On the second part, I think you can avoid the duration issue by having a toggle, but would lean the other way in terms of it needing to be weak enough and say instead it should be strong enough to allow permablocking/aoe spam/whatever else, but at a high cost such that you would want to use it only if the situation warranted it.

PlagueMonk

I used to swear by this skill when there were damage caps in place because, even with the handicap, I could still come close to cap lvls. With the caps removed however, taking a 22% hit to damage was.....crippling. So I swore off my beloved siphoning strikes many moons ago and this just solidifies my position that it is not worth even considering again.

Honestly, it should remain a toggle with no damage handicap. Done, finished. You are already sacrificing SOOOO much having it take up a place on your bar (or both bars in my case because I ran double melee) that anything more makes it a worthless ability.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. Just to clarify one point, Siphoning Strikes is an activated skill with a duration, so you don't need to put it on both skill bars. That said, we've passed this thread along to the team for review, and will let you know if we intend to make any additional changes to this skill.

Ipsius

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. Just to clarify one point, Siphoning Strikes is an activated skill with a duration, so you don't need to put it on both skill bars. That said, we've passed this thread along to the team for review, and will let you know if we intend to make any additional changes to this skill.

That's great to hear, thank you!

jwboudreau1b16_ESO

PlagueMonk wrote: »

I used to swear by this skill when there were damage caps in place because, even with the handicap, I could still come close to cap lvls. With the caps removed however, taking a 22% hit to damage was.....crippling. So I swore off my beloved siphoning strikes many moons ago and this just solidifies my position that it is not worth even considering again.

Honestly, it should remain a toggle with no damage handicap. Done, finished. You are already sacrificing SOOOO much having it take up a place on your bar (or both bars in my case because I ran double melee) that anything more makes it a worthless ability.

I think the idea is that you can toggle it when your resource is low, pinch off a couple quick strikes, and then untoggle it. When used strategically, it's still very good.

GreenSoup2HoT

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. Just to clarify one point, Siphoning Strikes is an activated skill with a duration, so you don't need to put it on both skill bars. That said, we've passed this thread along to the team for review, and will let you know if we intend to make any additional changes to this skill.

Nice Gina!

To add.

I'm not sure how Relentless Focus work's right now. On console anyway, if i use Relentless Focus and Fire the spectral Bow, once i hit another 7 light attack's my bow does the animation to use another Assassin's Will.

On the pts. If you fire Assassin's Will after 4 light attack's, you need to use the skill again if you want to activate Assassin's Will a 2nd time. However you can still hear the sound when Assassin's Will is available, once you light attack 4 time's again within the duration of the first Relentless Focus, you cannot fire it.
.
.
.
Can you activate multiple Assassin's Will's back to back within the duration?

Or does the console/pts have an animation/aduio bug?

Wing

sad to see such a fun and unique skill with clear bonuses and draw backs destroyed and turned into such a crap shadow of itself, very sad.

ShadowHvo

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. Just to clarify one point, Siphoning Strikes is an activated skill with a duration, so you don't need to put it on both skill bars. That said, we've passed this thread along to the team for review, and will let you know if we intend to make any additional changes to this skill.

I honestly do hope the higher-ups will get in with some changes for this, for it isn't very good.

I've now been playing around with it on the PTS, both whilst PvE'ing and PvP'ing, the return of both stamina and magicka is way.. way lower, and Leeching Strikes still only offers 2% in health return, it does not share the same fixed numbers like magicka and stamina.

However the general point is.. the skill is useless, its not worth the cost, no less a spot on the ability bar. The only positive thing about this skill is the very cool weapon effect =/

As a fair voice, I would say return to the % entirely, and make it a toggle once more. The current installment is just not working very well.

Especially for Leeching Strikes which has been the major underdog of Siphoning Attacks since launch, the health return from it seriously needs to be increased from 2% to either 4%, or even 5% for it to be worthwhile.

I really wish to see it flourish more, and an increase in the %, as well as keeping it as a toggled ability would do just that.

Scyantific

I'll have to agree with the posters above. If it's no longer a toggle, then there needs to be an incentive to actually keep using it. A smaller passive effect while slotted with no damage penalty and a stronger effect with a damage reduction as a trade off when activated is a pretty good balance, IMO.

I *just* got the hang of tanking with my NB using Siphoning Attacks and Refreshing Path, so the new change would be a pretty good way to turn people off from NB tanking.

Emma_Overload

Even as an NB-hating Sorc, I have to say that 10 seconds is way too low. Should be at least 20 seconds to keep it in line with similar buffs for other classes.

GreyRanger

Please put the duration to something reasonable. 30s would be tolerable. Having to re-click this every 10s is such a drag.

Ipsius

Thank you all for your comments! I'm glad I'm not the only one who holds this skill near and dear. A lot of you have given great ideas, and I hope we'll have good news soon. Hopefully they make any changes before PTS goes to the EU server so our friends across the pond can test the new version, and the devs can tweak from there.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, it really encourages me to know that ZOS is listening! It must be a very stressful day for you, and I really appreciate you taking the time to respond in this forum. As usual, you rock!

Ipsius

I completely forgot to mention, Siphoning Attacks currently doesn't proc on targets with damage shields on live. Anyone know if this is a bug, intended, or already fixed on PTS?

hrothbern

Ipsius wrote: »

I completely forgot to mention, Siphoning Attacks currently doesn't proc on targets with damage shields on live. Anyone know if this is a bug, intended, or already fixed on PTS?

Very good question !

Why not leave it as the bug it is... and assume for the future it is intended....

In that way the Siphoning Tank can function in PVE with the No-Stamina Recovery action only !!!
.... No need to change the siphoning mechanics in PVE... No upsetting the tanking role in the community for PVE.

In PVP the bug can stay.... ALSO no need to change the Siphoning mechanics, because everybody in PVP has damage shields anyway.

Soulac

Ain't nobody got time for rebuffing every 10 seconds..
Shadow Image, Double Take, Grim focus.. After buffing I can buff again - wuhuu!
And if you also use something like rally as Stamina Build or rapid Reg as Magicka build.. Yay!

Elijah_Crow

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. Just to clarify one point, Siphoning Strikes is an activated skill with a duration, so you don't need to put it on both skill bars. That said, we've passed this thread along to the team for review, and will let you know if we intend to make any additional changes to this skill.

How about putting it back the way it was. This was a horrible decision.

monkeymystic

Haha is this a joke from zos? The devs really screwed up hard on designing the new siphoning attacks!

#1: Rebuffing every 10 seconds for this new poor skill is clunky, poor gameplay, and simply makes you want to never use this ability again. Devs ever learned ANYTHING from the past?

#2: The new ability is not worth having slotted by a long shot, it gimps your char with 1 less potential useful ability instead of this nonscaled poor thing that needs to be spammed.

#3: Say goodbye to NB tanks for good. Was nice seeing them around now and then.

#4: Zos basically took a key ability away, and tossed some useless ability back that will never be used, which they later have to "redo" again. "Good job there".

#5: I'm glad my main isn't a NB which just got overnerfed bigtime in this type of role.

Tannus15

Yeah, this almost entirely looks like something ZOS had to do to deal with the fact that siphon NB tanks would be far superior to everyone else with the stamina block nerf.

You want your siphon back? Get ZOS to ditch the Tank nerf.