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Everything you feared about stones is true... from their live broadcast...
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Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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It's an unreliable self-selected sample, the poll is meaningless. You can use it, with caution, as one way to judge the reception of the new DLC, but it really isn't enough to form an accurate conclusion.Attorneyatlawl wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »
You guys want this to sell right? As it is you arent going to sell very many of these and when the people who dont use the forums figure out what you have done there will be an uproar like you have never seen.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »SuraklinPrime wrote: »But as a PvP player I have severe doubts about this one single mechanic - that being hit by a single kill removes everything you may have done since entering the zone and rewards someone for scoring one single kill when they may have not one single thing I can loot when I turn the tables on them.
Like @ZOS_BrianWheeler mentioned yesterday on ESO Live - we'll be watching PTS closely, tracking the data and feedback. We'll test out a couple of different loss percentages and see what strikes the right balance.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/196972/do-you-plan-on-getting-the-imperial-city-dlc/p1
Yeah right, they're not going to sell much...
With 99% confidence & 8.5% margin of error, 49% of player population will buy this DLC.
But hey, keep pounding your chest & making noise lol
Did you pay attention to the numbers? Fact is 99% of the players never use these forums. These forums are basically all one demographic. Its why companies should get their feedback from more than just the small amount who use these forums.
That poll has less than 500 total votes.
It's called a "statistically significant sample size" that is able to get a "confidence" rating. This confidence determines the margin of error. You don't need to survey 80% of people from every place they exist to get a relevant and accurate cross-section of data. @DDuke is completely correct as to what this data means.Edited by Rosveen on July 19, 2015 9:06PM0 -
Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I have a question. Is the pvp crowd saying they cannot pvp unless they can loot other players? Because everyone keeps saying its a pvp expansion. Yet unless they can gank newbies and loot them it isnt really pvp?
Ganking, in a general sense and as a concept let alone a practice, is a common and every day part of the pvp experience, whether you are ganking a "noob" or an Emperor.
If you have a problem with that then you obviously do not need to pvp.
Pretty simple.1 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I have a question. Is the pvp crowd saying they cannot pvp unless they can loot other players? Because everyone keeps saying its a pvp expansion. Yet unless they can gank newbies and loot them it isnt really pvp?
PvP players asked ZOS for an Arena to fight other players in small-scale settings.
Despite ZOS having an Arena for ESO programmed (it has been used at conventions before), we have never seen it.
Instead, we got a PvE "Arena."
PvP players asked ZOS for open world PvP.
ZOS offered a compromise by using a flag system with the Justice System.
PvE players complained, and ZOS eventually put it on the backburner to neverneverland.
PvP players asked ZOS for an option to play on a full loot PvP server.
ZOS offered a compromise by using a collect and drop system with full loot capabilities.
This story had not ended yet, but have presumptions on the ending people are trying to pen.
Am glad that @ZOS_RichLambert has asserted this as a thing of value to PvP players primarily.
It is good to see someone on staff take the PvP population seriously, rather than pushing them aside to second-class citizen status and considering them unworthy of content as a minority group.Edited by Samadhi on July 19, 2015 9:06PM"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »MsPtibiscuit wrote: »I can't believe are really complaining about a system like that. This is the first time ESO devs try to do something different than the typical themepark content, and people, without even trying the system, are already unhappy.
You guys really need to get out of this "progression" mentality. Stop thinking that you have to have 62 stones by the end of the evening, and if you can't achieve that, then it is the fault of the game or bad gamedesign.
Just play the game as it is, enjoy victories, learn from defeats. Even if you lose some stones along the way, the frustration will make the next victory sweeter.
People often forget that while full-loot PvP (The way stone works is similar to that) lets jerks play like jerks, it also lets white knights play like white knights. If you don't like the gankers, go form a group and patrol the area to protect the members of your faction.
That's what happened in BDO where a player pacified a region where spawn-killers were active. It's the kind of *** you can't do without spawn-killers in the first place.
Had to give you an awesome for that. You almost paint a positive picture of what Imperial "ganker" City could be and then I remembered human nature and more specifically...human pvp'er nature. Nope. Not gonna happen!
I think its cute people believe that everyone will play fair and people will defend the players who arent as good at pvp. Fact is like every game thats tried this it will end in disaster.
It's also flawed thinking that someone bad at PvP who gets their stones taken away will be able to just "form a group and patrol the area" for great justice. People who are bad at PvP are not going to make very good gank patrols are they? They also likely don't run with other people who are great at PvP. Their gear and skills are not set up to PvP. That advice might be valid for people who like and/or are good at PvP but then they don't need convincing to participate in the PvP system do they?
Then, those who don't enjoy PVP shouldn't need convincing to not participate in something they don't like. What's the problem here, exactly? Go earn gold and items to trade in PVE-land. Heck knows you can't go get vet dungeon, undaunted, and trials sets by PVP'ing at all, or master weapons in any feasible way. The imbalance is that you can simply buy everything from the Imperial City with gold. I'd rather this weren't the case, but given the huge amounts of complaints over even having a PVP expansion in the first place... I can only imagine how that would go over
. Edited by Attorneyatlawl on July 19, 2015 9:06PM-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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It's an unreliable self-selected sample, the poll is meaningless.Attorneyatlawl wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »
You guys want this to sell right? As it is you arent going to sell very many of these and when the people who dont use the forums figure out what you have done there will be an uproar like you have never seen.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »SuraklinPrime wrote: »But as a PvP player I have severe doubts about this one single mechanic - that being hit by a single kill removes everything you may have done since entering the zone and rewards someone for scoring one single kill when they may have not one single thing I can loot when I turn the tables on them.
Like @ZOS_BrianWheeler mentioned yesterday on ESO Live - we'll be watching PTS closely, tracking the data and feedback. We'll test out a couple of different loss percentages and see what strikes the right balance.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/196972/do-you-plan-on-getting-the-imperial-city-dlc/p1
Yeah right, they're not going to sell much...
With 99% confidence & 8.5% margin of error, 49% of player population will buy this DLC.
But hey, keep pounding your chest & making noise lol
Did you pay attention to the numbers? Fact is 99% of the players never use these forums. These forums are basically all one demographic. Its why companies should get their feedback from more than just the small amount who use these forums.
That poll has less than 500 total votes.
It's called a "statistically significant sample size" that is able to get a "confidence" rating. This confidence determines the margin of error. You don't need to survey 80% of people from every place they exist to get a relevant and accurate cross-section of data. @DDuke is completely correct as to what this data means.
It is 99% reliable.
Question is whether you want to bet on the 1%, or the 99%.0 -
King Bozo✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »
A simple as pie... PVP zone, you suck i get the loot.Emma_Eunjung wrote: »I swear if the carebears are getting ZOS to tear this great feature down again there is truly no hope for this game as an MMO.
Who gave you the idea that you are entitled to Tel Var stones? You lose absolutely nothing by not collecting them yourself.
Want VR16 gear? Collect loot from scaled group dungeons, craft it yourself or buy it with gold.
Want the specific new PvP gear from Tel Var vendors? Buy them from players with gold.
There are ways for you around the Tel Var system if you are such a delicate flower that you can't bear actually losing something once in a while. For everybody else, it actually makes good game design.
Who gave YOU the idea that you are entitled to MY Tel Var stones? See how that works?
If it's a PvP zone only, then why is all this juicy PvE content being stuffed inside of it? They should have divided the IC into two sections, one PvP space that functions like the rest of Cyrodiil, and one PvE space that has all the goodies in it that PvEers want to grind WITHOUT being robbed.
I'm NOT robbing you I EARN MY REWARD for killing you, since i usually dont kill mobs till dawn in order to get the loot i want,
i will camper your death body and wait for your pve friends.
I wish sometimes that Valkin Skoria had the possibilities to come in the forums, complaining about the fact that someone has looted his head 100 times a day.
And on a side note WE PLAY CYRODILL already why we should have MORE CYRODILL again?
LOL, what? If lose 100 stones out my inventory when you kill me, and your inventory gains 100 stones, then I got news for you, Robin Hood.... YOU ROBBED ME.
You can call it a "reward" or whatever you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you STOLE it.
You need to realize the stones are not yours until you make it safely out of harms ways. I am going to love this element of the game. I am imagining all the wonderful hate mail can't wait 1 -
EQBallzz✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I've seen this mentioned a few times in various threads now, so i'll clarify some here. Imperial City is meant for the PVP player - it's their turn for some love. If you love PVE and are clamoring for more of that type of content, the Orsinium DLC will be exactly what you want.
If that is the case then why did you raise the level cap two levels and not give PvE players any reasonable way to level up? Why is there a new high end gear system that only revolves around PvP? Are pure PvE players expected to just stay at v14 until the next DLC?3 -
RazzPitazz✭✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »RazzPitazz wrote: »ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »SuraklinPrime wrote: »But as a PvP player I have severe doubts about this one single mechanic - that being hit by a single kill removes everything you may have done since entering the zone and rewards someone for scoring one single kill when they may have not one single thing I can loot when I turn the tables on them.
Like @ZOS_BrianWheeler mentioned yesterday on ESO Live - we'll be watching PTS closely, tracking the data and feedback. We'll test out a couple of different loss percentages and see what strikes the right balance.
Can you sPeak real quick if PvErs will be able to obtain equivalent gear outside of IC? I think this is one of the major concerns at the moment.
Yep! All of it can be traded for by pve drops and gold.
I should rephrase that question a little.
Is there any way to obtain equivalent VR16 gear without having to purchase the DLC? As it stands (from what we know) gear from within IC can only be sold to other players who also have access to IC. For those who do not wish to PvP but want to remain relevant in terms of PvE gear, are there any options?Edited by RazzPitazz on July 19, 2015 9:07PMPC NA
VR1 - Jar'eed - Khajiit Dragon Knight - AD
VR1 - Broad Tail - Argonian Templar - EP
All-Star Crafter Guild0 -
trimsic_ESO✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »SuraklinPrime wrote: »But as a PvP player I have severe doubts about this one single mechanic - that being hit by a single kill removes everything you may have done since entering the zone and rewards someone for scoring one single kill when they may have not one single thing I can loot when I turn the tables on them.
Like @ZOS_BrianWheeler mentioned yesterday on ESO Live - we'll be watching PTS closely, tracking the data and feedback. We'll test out a couple of different loss percentages and see what strikes the right balance.
It's great to see that, as usual, ZOS will be listening to the players' feedback in order to fine tune their game.
Some people of course are scared about losing all the stones they won when they get killed. But they can also earn a lot of stones by killing their enemies. When some enemies will be spotted in some districts, I'm pretty sure that people will yell about their presence and will start to team up to chase them down. That's the exciting part of this system.
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Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I've seen this mentioned a few times in various threads now, so i'll clarify some here. Imperial City is meant for the PVP player - it's their turn for some love. If you love PVE and are clamoring for more of that type of content, the Orsinium DLC will be exactly what you want.
If that is the case then why did you raise the level cap two levels and not give PvE players any reasonable way to level up? Why is there a new high end gear system that only revolves around PvP? Are pure PvE players expected to just stay at v14 until the next DLC?
If you are doing ANY group content AT ALL, you will easily get to v16 very quickly. There are repeatables to do in Craglorn, there are all the undaunteds silver and gold, there is DSA and v DSA, Trials, etc. This is assuming you are already done with every thing else in every zone. If you are not done with that, you would likely make v16 in a couple days just from vet level quests. Gear options are still going to be quite numerous given dungeon rescaling, the new undaunteds, and the new two dunegoens in IC. You can still get stones no one can take from you to buy crafting mats, and you can also buy them from other players. Options abound.0 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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Why is it reliable? An honest question. I still don't know how I ever passed my statistics class, I'm greener than grass.
It's an unreliable self-selected sample, the poll is meaningless.Attorneyatlawl wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »
You guys want this to sell right? As it is you arent going to sell very many of these and when the people who dont use the forums figure out what you have done there will be an uproar like you have never seen.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »SuraklinPrime wrote: »But as a PvP player I have severe doubts about this one single mechanic - that being hit by a single kill removes everything you may have done since entering the zone and rewards someone for scoring one single kill when they may have not one single thing I can loot when I turn the tables on them.
Like @ZOS_BrianWheeler mentioned yesterday on ESO Live - we'll be watching PTS closely, tracking the data and feedback. We'll test out a couple of different loss percentages and see what strikes the right balance.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/196972/do-you-plan-on-getting-the-imperial-city-dlc/p1
Yeah right, they're not going to sell much...
With 99% confidence & 8.5% margin of error, 49% of player population will buy this DLC.
But hey, keep pounding your chest & making noise lol
Did you pay attention to the numbers? Fact is 99% of the players never use these forums. These forums are basically all one demographic. Its why companies should get their feedback from more than just the small amount who use these forums.
That poll has less than 500 total votes.
It's called a "statistically significant sample size" that is able to get a "confidence" rating. This confidence determines the margin of error. You don't need to survey 80% of people from every place they exist to get a relevant and accurate cross-section of data. @DDuke is completely correct as to what this data means.
It is 99% reliable.
Question is whether you want to bet on the 1%, or the 99%. But experience with forum polls and forum users in general tells me that their opinions often wildly differ from those of the whole customer base. 0 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I have a question. Is the pvp crowd saying they cannot pvp unless they can loot other players? Because everyone keeps saying its a pvp expansion. Yet unless they can gank newbies and loot them it isnt really pvp?
EXACTLY. Imagine if ZoS had announced IC without the Tel Var corpse-looting mechanic and never even told anyone they had considered it.... would PvPers be complaining? LOL, no, they would STILL be psyched to have new content, and PvEers wouldn't have much to say against it. If anything, PvEers would probably be talking about all the new armors they will be able to buy or craft.
This entire controversy is entirely unnecessary, created out of foolish lack of foresight on ZoS' part. Hopefully, they will avert this nightmare before Update 7 goes Live.
Edited by Emma_Overload on July 20, 2015 8:02AM#CAREBEARMASTERRACE4 -
EQBallzz✭✭✭✭✭
✭newtinmpls wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Reading the comments, I'm starting to think most of these players deserve to get griefed. Sorry.
I'm not clear why.
What I see is players who don't like fighting other players, and concurrent to that have not develped those skills (again: not interested in that aspect of the game) perceving that suddenly they are given an "opportunity" which essentially forces them to go toe-to-toe with groups and individuals who not only outmatch them, but are already laying on the threats and mockery because of the imbalance in combat skills.
So a PvE'er deserves to be greifed, because s/he dosn't share your enjoyment for a particular playstyle, and doesn't particularly care to have rewards related to the PvE experience obtainable only via PvP?
Is that what you mean to be saying?
That comment was made by me, not jamesharv.
I stick by it, however.
An entitled PvEr who QQs on the forums when a certain DLC/content patch isn't 100% tailored for his/her preferences (but in favor of game diversity tries to appease to other types of players) absolutely deserves to get griefed.
You grief the forums, I grief you in game. That's how griefing works.
I must say you are fitting the stereotypical PvP mentality perfectly and you're exactly why people hate PvP.4 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I have a question. Is the pvp crowd saying they cannot pvp unless they can loot other players? Because everyone keeps saying its a pvp expansion. Yet unless they can gank newbies and loot them it isnt really pvp?
EXACTLY. Imagine if ZoS had announced IC without the Tel Var corpse-looting mechanic and never even told anyone they had considered it.... would PvPers be complaining? LOL, no, they would STILL be psyched to have new content, and PvEers wouldn't have much to say against it. In anything, PvEers would probably be talking about all the new armors they will be able to buy or craft.
This entire controversy is entirely unnecessary, created out of foolish lack of foresight on ZoS' part. Hopefully, they will avert this nightmare before Update 7 goes Live.
You make a great point here, PvE players are only complaining because ZOS announced an additional feature for PvP players to be excited over; one that makes this new system dynamic and unique compared to the rest of the PvP in game.
Can totally agree that they will hopefully make it clear to PvE players that they are under no obligation to play in the PvP zone, and can stick to the new dungeons that were designed to give them new content.
It would be great if ZOS could avert further misinformed complaints.Edited by Samadhi on July 19, 2015 9:20PM"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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Why is it reliable? An honest question. I still don't know how I ever passed my statistics class, I'm greener than grass.
It's an unreliable self-selected sample, the poll is meaningless.Attorneyatlawl wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »
You guys want this to sell right? As it is you arent going to sell very many of these and when the people who dont use the forums figure out what you have done there will be an uproar like you have never seen.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »SuraklinPrime wrote: »But as a PvP player I have severe doubts about this one single mechanic - that being hit by a single kill removes everything you may have done since entering the zone and rewards someone for scoring one single kill when they may have not one single thing I can loot when I turn the tables on them.
Like @ZOS_BrianWheeler mentioned yesterday on ESO Live - we'll be watching PTS closely, tracking the data and feedback. We'll test out a couple of different loss percentages and see what strikes the right balance.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/196972/do-you-plan-on-getting-the-imperial-city-dlc/p1
Yeah right, they're not going to sell much...
With 99% confidence & 8.5% margin of error, 49% of player population will buy this DLC.
But hey, keep pounding your chest & making noise lol
Did you pay attention to the numbers? Fact is 99% of the players never use these forums. These forums are basically all one demographic. Its why companies should get their feedback from more than just the small amount who use these forums.
That poll has less than 500 total votes.
It's called a "statistically significant sample size" that is able to get a "confidence" rating. This confidence determines the margin of error. You don't need to survey 80% of people from every place they exist to get a relevant and accurate cross-section of data. @DDuke is completely correct as to what this data means.
It is 99% reliable.
Question is whether you want to bet on the 1%, or the 99%. But experience with forum polls and forum users in general tells me that their opinions often wildly differ from those of the whole customer base.
I really don't feel like writing essays here, so here's a link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error
You can apply margin of error to any poll, and it will give accurate representation of how the larger populace would vote.
Of course this requires the poll to be valid in the first place (unbiased & not rigged).0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭newtinmpls wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Reading the comments, I'm starting to think most of these players deserve to get griefed. Sorry.
I'm not clear why.
What I see is players who don't like fighting other players, and concurrent to that have not develped those skills (again: not interested in that aspect of the game) perceving that suddenly they are given an "opportunity" which essentially forces them to go toe-to-toe with groups and individuals who not only outmatch them, but are already laying on the threats and mockery because of the imbalance in combat skills.
So a PvE'er deserves to be greifed, because s/he dosn't share your enjoyment for a particular playstyle, and doesn't particularly care to have rewards related to the PvE experience obtainable only via PvP?
Is that what you mean to be saying?
That comment was made by me, not jamesharv.
I stick by it, however.
An entitled PvEr who QQs on the forums when a certain DLC/content patch isn't 100% tailored for his/her preferences (but in favor of game diversity tries to appease to other types of players) absolutely deserves to get griefed.
You grief the forums, I grief you in game. That's how griefing works.
I must say you are fitting the stereotypical PvP mentality perfectly and you're exactly why people hate PvP.
Because I hate people who think they're entitled to everything?
That's ok, I don't mind those people hating me.2 -
Kerioko✭✭✭✭Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »eonowakb16_ESO wrote: »
If the ones that are zerg'ed have not any opportunity to gain Stones they ones that zerg them will get no Stones. So pure zerging will not work.
O a great point my dear tonnopesce.... Lol
Zerging the zerg that zerg the zerg... I belive that the few that have gained a stone will immediatly come to cry in the forums...
The solo PVE'er reaction when the pug zergs hits IC.....
Dinosaur Chicken Nuggets - Argonian mNB Tank/Heals (PVP)
Strawberry Semifreddo - Dunmer mSorc DPS // Sunny D-Light - Breton mTemp Heals
Peanut Butter Sandwich - Orc sDK DPS // Kellogg's Frosted Flakes - Argonian mWard Tank/Heals (PVE)Cor-Leonisfriendship - integrity - perseverance3 -
Darkmage1337✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thank you @ZOS_RichLambert for the solid public service announcement and reminder.
Having watched ESO Live and having read all of the various Imperial City-related forum threads, I figured I'd give my input since I've been lurking around for awhile now.
I wholly welcome the planned features for the Imperial City and the Telvar Stones token-system. Afterall, the ESO community has been waiting over a year for the Imperial City. It has been stated before that the IC update would probably be one of the few PVP-related content updates for ESO. (If anything, it'll be the only one _ever_ since arena and/or battleground-styled content isn't being planned [as the Devs stated numerous times already in previous threads and Q&A.])
Plus, game-balances like ability-adjustments and bug-fixes aren't considered "content" (e.g. new areas/zones.)
Speaking of new areas, the "PVE-only crowd" got Craglorn and is getting: Orsinium, Murkmire, Clockwork City, Abah's Landing, Mephala's Realm, and the unnamed AD adventure-zone area. (Craglorn is a DC-area, Murkmire is an EP-area, and so the future & third area would be the respective AD adventure-zone area to complete the adventure-zone trisect). That is 7 PVE-focused zones compared to the 1 and only PVP-focused zone. (Mind you, IC is both PVP & PVE.)
It is about time PVPers are finally getting some entertainment. Cyrodiil has been awfully dead & empty or laggy & zergy for the past year. Not to mention past and present class-&-ability imbalances (which is always on-going).
You all should be excited and grateful that we're even getting a content update at all in 2015... "We know!" (tm)
@Attorneyatlawl and @DDuke brought up very good comments in this thread, as well. Bravo to you both, I was happy to read them.
The /thread is: less banter & QQ and more constructive discussion on MMO design & mechanics. Their system will work out just fine, the only mechanic up for discussion is the percentage of loss. 100% would be fine with me and 50% would be fine with me. Either way, I'll see you all in the Imperial City. For those who don't show; well, you can always go back to Skyrim. ^.~
ESO is either a MMORPG with Elder Scrolls story & gameplay or an Elder Scrolls game with a few MMO designs & mechanics thrown in. Pick one, not both. That is pretty much what any ESO debate will always come down to.
Elder Scrolls Online: the only single-player MMORPG on the market. ESO needs more solid MMO mechanics & design and less mediocre singe-player content that can be just steamrolled through. The Imperial City will be a welcomed addition and is ESO's icing-on-the-cake.ESO Platform/Region: PC/NA. ESO ID: @Darkmage1337GM of Absolute Virtue. Co-GM of Absolute Vice. 8-time Former Emperor, out of 13 characters. 3 Templars, 3 Sorcerers, 2 Nightblades, 2 Dragonknights, 1 Warden. 1 Necromancer, and 1 Arcanist. The Ebonheart Pact: The Dark-Mage (Former Emperor), The Undying Nightshade, The Moonlit-Knight, The Killionaire (Former Emperor), Swims-Among-Slaughterfish (Former Emperor), The Undead Mage, and The Dark-Warlock. The Aldmeri Dominion: The Dawn-Bringer (Former Empress), The Ironwood Kid (Former Emperor), and The Storm-Sword. The Daggerfall Covenant: The Storm-Shield (Former Empress), The Savage-Beast, and The Burning-Crusader CP: 1,900.2 -
EQBallzz✭✭✭✭✭
✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »MsPtibiscuit wrote: »I can't believe are really complaining about a system like that. This is the first time ESO devs try to do something different than the typical themepark content, and people, without even trying the system, are already unhappy.
You guys really need to get out of this "progression" mentality. Stop thinking that you have to have 62 stones by the end of the evening, and if you can't achieve that, then it is the fault of the game or bad gamedesign.
Just play the game as it is, enjoy victories, learn from defeats. Even if you lose some stones along the way, the frustration will make the next victory sweeter.
People often forget that while full-loot PvP (The way stone works is similar to that) lets jerks play like jerks, it also lets white knights play like white knights. If you don't like the gankers, go form a group and patrol the area to protect the members of your faction.
That's what happened in BDO where a player pacified a region where spawn-killers were active. It's the kind of *** you can't do without spawn-killers in the first place.
Had to give you an awesome for that. You almost paint a positive picture of what Imperial "ganker" City could be and then I remembered human nature and more specifically...human pvp'er nature. Nope. Not gonna happen!
I think its cute people believe that everyone will play fair and people will defend the players who arent as good at pvp. Fact is like every game thats tried this it will end in disaster.
It's also flawed thinking that someone bad at PvP who gets their stones taken away will be able to just "form a group and patrol the area" for great justice. People who are bad at PvP are not going to make very good gank patrols are they? They also likely don't run with other people who are great at PvP. Their gear and skills are not set up to PvP. That advice might be valid for people who like and/or are good at PvP but then they don't need convincing to participate in the PvP system do they?
Then, those who don't enjoy PVP shouldn't need convincing to not participate in something they don't like. What's the problem here, exactly? Go earn gold and items to trade in PVE-land. Heck knows you can't go get vet dungeon, undaunted, and trials sets by PVP'ing at all, or master weapons in any feasible way. The imbalance is that you can simply buy everything from the Imperial City with gold. I'd rather this weren't the case, but given the huge amounts of complaints over even having a PVP expansion in the first place... I can only imagine how that would go over.
That would be fine if they had not raised the level cap yet again but given no actual content for PvE players to level up with outside of IC. That would be fine had they not introduced a new end-game gear systems that mostly revolves around PvP. You say people can just buy it but I have a feeling the large majority of players won't have near enough gold to purchase those sets. I suspect farming gold for weeks to buy gear from players who get to actually participate in the new content doesn't sound too appealing to most.2 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Darkmage1337 wrote: »Thank you @ZOS_RichLambert for the solid public service announcement and reminder.Having watched ESO Live and having read all of the various Imperial City-related forum threads, I figured I'd give my input since I've been lurking around for awhile now.
I wholly welcome the planned features for the Imperial City and the Telvar Stones token-system. Afterall, the ESO community has been waiting over a year for the Imperial City. It has been stated before that the IC update would probably be one of the few PVP-related content updates for ESO. (If anything, it'll be the only one _ever_ since arena and/or battleground-styled content isn't being planned [as the Devs stated numerous times already in previous threads and Q&A.])
Plus, game-balances like ability-adjustments and bug-fixes aren't considered "content" (e.g. new areas/zones.)
Speaking of new areas, the "PVE-only crowd" got Craglorn and is getting: Orsinium, Murkmire, Clockwork City, Abah's Landing, Mephala's Realm, and the unnamed AD adventure-zone area. (Craglorn is a DC-area, Murkmire is an EP-area, and so the future & third area would be the respective AD adventure-zone area to complete the adventure-zone trisect). That is 7 PVE-focused zones compared to the 1 and only PVP-focused zone. (Mind you, IC is both PVP & PVE.)
It is about time PVPers are finally getting some entertainment. Cyrodiil has been awfully dead & empty or laggy & zergy for the past year. Not to mention past and present class-&-ability imbalances (which is always on-going).
You all should be excited and grateful that we're even getting a content update at all in 2015... "We know!" (tm)
@Attorneyatlawl and @DDuke brought up very good comments in this thread, as well. Bravo to you both, I was happy to read them.
The /thread is: less banter & QQ and more constructive discussion on MMO design & mechanics. Their system will work out just fine, the only mechanic up for discussion is the percentage of loss. 100% would be fine with me and 50% would be fine with me. Either way, I'll see you all in the Imperial City. For those who don't show; well, you can always go back to Skyrim. ^.~
ESO is either a MMORPG with Elder Scrolls story & gameplay or an Elder Scrolls game with a few MMO designs & mechanics thrown in. Pick one, not both. That is pretty much what any ESO debate will always come down to.
Elder Scrolls Online: the only single-player MMORPG on the market. ESO needs more solid MMO mechanics & design and less mediocre singe-player content that can be just steamrolled through. The Imperial City will be a welcomed addition and is ESO's icing-on-the-cake.
Your signature refers to you as the "Former Ultimate-Champion-of-the-World"? Lies and slander!
-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.0 -
Tavore1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »
You guys want this to sell right? As it is you arent going to sell very many of these and when the people who dont use the forums figure out what you have done there will be an uproar like you have never seen.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »SuraklinPrime wrote: »But as a PvP player I have severe doubts about this one single mechanic - that being hit by a single kill removes everything you may have done since entering the zone and rewards someone for scoring one single kill when they may have not one single thing I can loot when I turn the tables on them.
Like @ZOS_BrianWheeler mentioned yesterday on ESO Live - we'll be watching PTS closely, tracking the data and feedback. We'll test out a couple of different loss percentages and see what strikes the right balance.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/196972/do-you-plan-on-getting-the-imperial-city-dlc/p1
Yeah right, they're not going to sell much...
With 99% confidence & 8.5% margin of error, 49% of player population will buy this DLC.
But hey, keep pounding your chest & making noise lol
Did you pay attention to the numbers? Fact is 99% of the players never use these forums. These forums are basically all one demographic. Its why companies should get their feedback from more than just the small amount who use these forums.
That poll has less than 500 total votes.
Most people don't vote on electoral polls either, but the interesting thing is that you can determine public opinion even with a small sample size. This is called margin of error.
Please take a moment and educate yourself.
With only 257 votes we can already determine the real number is between 40% & 56%.
Actually a key part of opinion polling is ensuring the sample is representative of the population it is meant to reflect, I suspect we here on the forums are not a representative sample of gamers.GM - Malazan
Raid Leader - Hungry Wolves
Legio Mortuum0 -
Romo✭✭✭✭DaveTheMinion wrote: »I cannot believe that this company would give a thumbs up to something that is going to cause so much grief and eventually cause players to leave.
ESO players can take it, the fact is, we need to deal with all kind of stuff. You put a siege weapon, someone kills you right there. You're riding to battle, two guys jump on you, and kill you before you have chance to do anything. Zerging is also one thing, sometimes you just face enemy zerg you simply cant win and you just have to do your best. Or dont you just love when someone pours hot oil and kills 5 guys right there. So that said, ESO players are used to little hard time, griefing etc.
I am used to all that over the many MMOs I've played, EXCEPT for the griefing as envisioned here.
All of that was anticipated, EXCEPT for the griefing here.
Hell, I've stood in a keep with a warband and a half(36 guys/girls/critters of some sort) awaiting a zerg of 137+ in warhammer. We all stood fought and died. Comes with the territory.
But never in modern mmo time has griefing been condoned. It was always considered harassment, even the minor griefing such as rez/body lurking to continue the killing. But, never saw body looting in any way shape or form.
100%/50%/10%... hell with that I'm even gone from BTP to say nothing of paying for this cr@p.
Plus runs out with Sept. 1 coming on. And then we'll see if this useless thing is still in.0 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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This doesn't explain how a self-selected forum sample is representative of the ESO population. Margin of error doesn't account for this bias.
Why is it reliable? An honest question. I still don't know how I ever passed my statistics class, I'm greener than grass.
It's an unreliable self-selected sample, the poll is meaningless.Attorneyatlawl wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »
You guys want this to sell right? As it is you arent going to sell very many of these and when the people who dont use the forums figure out what you have done there will be an uproar like you have never seen.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »SuraklinPrime wrote: »But as a PvP player I have severe doubts about this one single mechanic - that being hit by a single kill removes everything you may have done since entering the zone and rewards someone for scoring one single kill when they may have not one single thing I can loot when I turn the tables on them.
Like @ZOS_BrianWheeler mentioned yesterday on ESO Live - we'll be watching PTS closely, tracking the data and feedback. We'll test out a couple of different loss percentages and see what strikes the right balance.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/196972/do-you-plan-on-getting-the-imperial-city-dlc/p1
Yeah right, they're not going to sell much...
With 99% confidence & 8.5% margin of error, 49% of player population will buy this DLC.
But hey, keep pounding your chest & making noise lol
Did you pay attention to the numbers? Fact is 99% of the players never use these forums. These forums are basically all one demographic. Its why companies should get their feedback from more than just the small amount who use these forums.
That poll has less than 500 total votes.
It's called a "statistically significant sample size" that is able to get a "confidence" rating. This confidence determines the margin of error. You don't need to survey 80% of people from every place they exist to get a relevant and accurate cross-section of data. @DDuke is completely correct as to what this data means.
It is 99% reliable.
Question is whether you want to bet on the 1%, or the 99%. But experience with forum polls and forum users in general tells me that their opinions often wildly differ from those of the whole customer base.
I really don't feel like writing essays here, so here's a link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error
You can apply margin of error to any poll, and it will give accurate representation of how the larger populace would vote.
Of course this requires the poll to be valid in the first place (unbiased & not rigged).Edited by Rosveen on July 19, 2015 9:57PM1 -
Darkmage1337✭✭✭✭✭
✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Darkmage1337 wrote: »Thank you @ZOS_RichLambert for the solid public service announcement and reminder.Having watched ESO Live and having read all of the various Imperial City-related forum threads, I figured I'd give my input since I've been lurking around for awhile now.
I wholly welcome the planned features for the Imperial City and the Telvar Stones token-system. Afterall, the ESO community has been waiting over a year for the Imperial City. It has been stated before that the IC update would probably be one of the few PVP-related content updates for ESO. (If anything, it'll be the only one _ever_ since arena and/or battleground-styled content isn't being planned [as the Devs stated numerous times already in previous threads and Q&A.])
Plus, game-balances like ability-adjustments and bug-fixes aren't considered "content" (e.g. new areas/zones.)
Speaking of new areas, the "PVE-only crowd" got Craglorn and is getting: Orsinium, Murkmire, Clockwork City, Abah's Landing, Mephala's Realm, and the unnamed AD adventure-zone area. (Craglorn is a DC-area, Murkmire is an EP-area, and so the future & third area would be the respective AD adventure-zone area to complete the adventure-zone trisect). That is 7 PVE-focused zones compared to the 1 and only PVP-focused zone. (Mind you, IC is both PVP & PVE.)
It is about time PVPers are finally getting some entertainment. Cyrodiil has been awfully dead & empty or laggy & zergy for the past year. Not to mention past and present class-&-ability imbalances (which is always on-going).
You all should be excited and grateful that we're even getting a content update at all in 2015... "We know!" (tm)
@Attorneyatlawl and @DDuke brought up very good comments in this thread, as well. Bravo to you both, I was happy to read them.
The /thread is: less banter & QQ and more constructive discussion on MMO design & mechanics. Their system will work out just fine, the only mechanic up for discussion is the percentage of loss. 100% would be fine with me and 50% would be fine with me. Either way, I'll see you all in the Imperial City. For those who don't show; well, you can always go back to Skyrim. ^.~
ESO is either a MMORPG with Elder Scrolls story & gameplay or an Elder Scrolls game with a few MMO designs & mechanics thrown in. Pick one, not both. That is pretty much what any ESO debate will always come down to.
Elder Scrolls Online: the only single-player MMORPG on the market. ESO needs more solid MMO mechanics & design and less mediocre singe-player content that can be just steamrolled through. The Imperial City will be a welcomed addition and is ESO's icing-on-the-cake.
Your signature refers to you as the "Former Ultimate-Champion-of-the-World"? Lies and slander!
Well, I was TIME Magazine's Person-of-the-Year for 2006. That has to count for something, rite?
ESO Platform/Region: PC/NA. ESO ID: @Darkmage1337GM of Absolute Virtue. Co-GM of Absolute Vice. 8-time Former Emperor, out of 13 characters. 3 Templars, 3 Sorcerers, 2 Nightblades, 2 Dragonknights, 1 Warden. 1 Necromancer, and 1 Arcanist. The Ebonheart Pact: The Dark-Mage (Former Emperor), The Undying Nightshade, The Moonlit-Knight, The Killionaire (Former Emperor), Swims-Among-Slaughterfish (Former Emperor), The Undead Mage, and The Dark-Warlock. The Aldmeri Dominion: The Dawn-Bringer (Former Empress), The Ironwood Kid (Former Emperor), and The Storm-Sword. The Daggerfall Covenant: The Storm-Shield (Former Empress), The Savage-Beast, and The Burning-Crusader CP: 1,900.1 -
Tavore1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I have a question. Is the pvp crowd saying they cannot pvp unless they can loot other players? Because everyone keeps saying its a pvp expansion. Yet unless they can gank newbies and loot them it isnt really pvp?
PvP players asked ZOS for an Arena to fight other players in small-scale settings.
Despite ZOS having an Arena for ESO programmed (it has been used at conventions before), we have never seen it.
Instead, we got a PvE "Arena."
PvP players asked ZOS for open world PvP.
ZOS offered a compromise by using a flag system with the Justice System.
PvE players complained, and ZOS eventually put it on the backburner to neverneverland.
PvP players asked ZOS for an option to play on a full loot PvP server.
ZOS offered a compromise by using a collect and drop system with full loot capabilities.
This story had not ended yet, but have presumptions on the ending people are trying to pen.
Am glad that @ZOS_RichLambert has asserted this as a thing of value to PvP players primarily.
It is good to see someone on staff take the PvP population seriously, rather than pushing them aside to second-class citizen status and considering them unworthy of content as a minority group.
I wish people would stop implying that PvP players are one group with one opinion, I am a PvP player and yet in a moment of amger I started this thread, I have calmed down somewhat but I still do not like the mechanic as announced.
I 100% do not want open world PvP and I am massively indifferent to 'duels'.
All PvP people do not have one voice any more than PvE players do, its not an us vs. them thing...GM - Malazan
Raid Leader - Hungry Wolves
Legio Mortuum2 -
Romo✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I have a question. Is the pvp crowd saying they cannot pvp unless they can loot other players? Because everyone keeps saying its a pvp expansion. Yet unless they can gank newbies and loot them it isnt really pvp?
EXACTLY. Imagine if ZoS had announced IC without the Tel Var corpse-looting mechanic and never even told anyone they had considered it.... would PvPers be complaining? LOL, no, they would STILL be psyched to have new content, and PvEers wouldn't have much to say against it. In anything, PvEers would probably be talking about all the new armors they will be able to buy or craft.
This entire controversy is entirely unnecessary, created out of foolish lack of foresight on ZoS' part. Hopefully, they will avert this nightmare before Update 7 goes Live.
Perfect post, what I've been trying to say all along.3 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SuraklinPrime wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I have a question. Is the pvp crowd saying they cannot pvp unless they can loot other players? Because everyone keeps saying its a pvp expansion. Yet unless they can gank newbies and loot them it isnt really pvp?
PvP players asked ZOS for an Arena to fight other players in small-scale settings.
Despite ZOS having an Arena for ESO programmed (it has been used at conventions before), we have never seen it.
Instead, we got a PvE "Arena."
PvP players asked ZOS for open world PvP.
ZOS offered a compromise by using a flag system with the Justice System.
PvE players complained, and ZOS eventually put it on the backburner to neverneverland.
PvP players asked ZOS for an option to play on a full loot PvP server.
ZOS offered a compromise by using a collect and drop system with full loot capabilities.
This story had not ended yet, but have presumptions on the ending people are trying to pen.
Am glad that @ZOS_RichLambert has asserted this as a thing of value to PvP players primarily.
It is good to see someone on staff take the PvP population seriously, rather than pushing them aside to second-class citizen status and considering them unworthy of content as a minority group.
I wish people would stop implying that PvP players are one group with one opinion, I am a PvP player and yet in a moment of amger I started this thread, I have calmed down somewhat but I still do not like the mechanic as announced.
I 100% do not want open world PvP and I am massively indifferent to 'duels'.
All PvP people do not have one voice any more than PvE players do, its not an us vs. them thing...
Then make a request for the type of PvP system you would like if neither Cyrodiil nor Imperial City appeal to you.
My post never stated that all PvP players asked for each of the listed systems, only that they were asked for by PvP players (in contrast to straight PvE players who would not be likely to ask for PvP systems at all).
Not all PvP people want the same thing, so not all of them want what you do.
My post outlined three different forms of PvP that were asked for by different portions of the PvP population.
Imperial City appeals to one of them.
As a PvP player who is trying to assert that not everyone wants the same thing, it would make the most sense for you to be very supportive of the new system.
Even if it does not appeal to you directly, there are people that it is highly appealing to; and, the full-loot feature is, so far, the only noteworthy difference between PvP styles in Cyrodiil and Imperial City.
Does it satisfy any PvE players?
Doubtful, it's PvP.
Does it satisfy all PvP players?
Doubtful, neither does Cyrodiil.
Does it satisfy the people it appears to be designed for?
All signs point to yes.
With the information provided so far, ZOS has done a good job.Edited by Samadhi on July 19, 2015 10:16PM"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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MissBizz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RazzPitazz wrote: »Attorneyatlawl wrote: »RazzPitazz wrote: »ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »SuraklinPrime wrote: »But as a PvP player I have severe doubts about this one single mechanic - that being hit by a single kill removes everything you may have done since entering the zone and rewards someone for scoring one single kill when they may have not one single thing I can loot when I turn the tables on them.
Like @ZOS_BrianWheeler mentioned yesterday on ESO Live - we'll be watching PTS closely, tracking the data and feedback. We'll test out a couple of different loss percentages and see what strikes the right balance.
Can you sPeak real quick if PvErs will be able to obtain equivalent gear outside of IC? I think this is one of the major concerns at the moment.
Yep! All of it can be traded for by pve drops and gold.
I should rephrase that question a little.
Is there any way to obtain equivalent VR16 gear without having to purchase the DLC? As it stands (from what we know) gear from within IC can only be sold to other players who also have access to IC. For those who do not wish to PvP but want to remain relevant in terms of PvE gear, are there any options?
@RazzPitazz There are ways outside of IC. The gear purchased with Tel Var stones (and crafting mats) are able to be sold and traded.. This includes to people who do not own the expansion. As well, with dungeons getting scaled to VR16 we should see all those dungeons sets at VR16. Oh, and if someone does buy IC or is subscribed, they also mentioned there will be new VR16 dungeons sets in the new dungeons - that gear will be BoP though, so for those you would need IC access.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »
@hamgatan My belief is that they will be technically inseparable. By which I mean, the answer to question 1 is "0 GB" and the answer to question 2 is "x GB" (which will hopefully be answered in the Patch Notes). The download of "Update 7" will include all the Imperial City content, but it will only be accessible if you've got your sub/paid your Crowns.If we can take a brief pause from all the whining and carrying on for a second and actually ask relevant technical questions, I have three..
1. How big is this DLC in size (GB?)
2. How big is Update 7 that's being released in Parallel with it (GB?)
3. Is the DLC being applied through the Launcher or available from a separate Repository (Like the Launcher Executable in the Account Page), hence taking the bandwidth load off the Servers in a more distributed fashion and not congesting traffic for both into one source.
That's correct. Remember that even though Imperial City (the area) will be inaccessible in the event that you don't purchase it, you'll still be able to purchase items that are sold from other players that they may have gotten in Imperial City. Also, we don't have an exact size of the patch yet, but expect it to be fairly sizable.
Edited by MissBizz on July 19, 2015 10:16PMLone Wolf HelpFor the solo players who know, sometimes you just need a hand.PC | NA | AD-DC-EP | Discord0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
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PvP players asked ZOS for an Arena to fight other players in small-scale settings.
Despite ZOS having an Arena for ESO programmed (it has been used at conventions before), we have never seen it.
Instead, we got a PvE "Arena."
[/quote]
As a PvE'er I too have advocated for small scale, even instanced PvP, possibly even done as writs or say 4x4x4. Because I would LOVE to dip my toes in the water in what would feel like a "safer" place - and a lot of other PvE'ers wanted/want that too.PvP players asked ZOS for open world PvP.
ZOS offered a compromise by using a flag system with the Justice System.
PvE players complained, and ZOS eventually put it on the backburner to neverneverland.
ZoS started a Justice System which currently is NPC based only. It's effectively opt-in, because unless you rob/murder/whatever on purpose, it doesn't affect you.
Some PvE players (myself included) wanted the option to be able to opt-in or opt-out so that we could not be ganked/robbed by random Players (starting to sound familiar)?. PvPers argued that they should be able to attack anyone they want.
Yes, that seems to be shelved, which makes no one happy.PvP players asked ZOS for an option to play on a full loot PvP server.
ZOS offered a compromise by using a collect and drop system with full loot capabilities.
This story had not ended yet, but have presumptions on the ending people are trying to pen.
In some ways, PvP and PvE are very different play styles. I wouldn't want to force either into the other - encourage yes, force no.
I would like to see more options.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis1
