The Day ESO Dies

Lettigall

Rune_Relic wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

I would be more apt to agree with the sentiments of this thread on CP's if there was mathematical proof that CP's have a noteworthy impact on character performance by way of PvP and PvE. As far as "collapse of guilds", it is the life blood of MMOs, every game in the history of MMOs has had a dark era, for many it was a failure for many it was a success.

Only Attorneyatlawl has provided any type of mathematical inquiry and scientific insight, his findings show that grinding CP past a certain point is not numerically significant.
'
With that said so far it shows that skill will still supersede a mathematical advantage in Cyrodiil at this point. Which makes the hamster wheel argument relevant because if CP's truly mean nothing then there is only awaiting the next DLC, which people have already are bored with current content while people like you are trying to enjoy the game.

Before it was too damn hard to get Veteran levels, now it's much easier to gain vet levels. Now its back to every problem every MMO has ever faced, the gap between casuals and hardcore players.

So where do you fill in the gap? Gear? "CPs", Levels?

How many people are going to enjoy the storyline vs PvP/PvE mechanical functionality and blow through Mythos and storytelling and get straight to the endgame?

In my opinion, ZOS is being intelligent by taking their time fixing current issues slowly and methodically rather than rushing content to appease the squeakiest wheel on the ESOTU bus.

Another problem lies in the fact that how can they improve a game when they have to wade through a bunch of bs just to get to the folks who do not soak the forums in their tears and nerdrage and have really well written and coherent concerns and improvements. They are going to soak the "next big thing" in their tears when it fails doesn't spoil them, because they are addicted to riding the hypetrain, I with held my assessments and conclusions for years, but after Stars Wars launch, there it is.

*shrug* That is just me, I am a admittedly patient with this game, I take my time. Not rushing to the end when I know by the time I get there something new, cool, and shiny is going to come out.

I have been one of the few producing figures and not crap....



..This is stamina increase over standard as CP points increase. Magicka and Health also increase at the same rate. ALL passive/active bonuses are scaled based off magicka/stamina/health as well as spell/weapon damage. So not only do you get damage CS passive increase you also get the CS stat based increase as a double whammy.
What would you give to have a 5 pc set bonus of +15% stamina/magicka/health on top of your existing 5 pc set bonus (350 cp) ?


Now imagine you could have upto 50% increase on all stats.

One thing that cannot be added in any charts are passives when 10, 30, 75, and 120 points spent in a constellation. When you unlock those passives, things that you normally do(dodge, block, break free, drink potion) start giving you bonuses.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Neolink7 wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something here but adding "seasons" to the CP system doesn't fix anything really. There's still no catch up mechanic there. Someone who's been playing longer or has more "seasons" will still always have more CP.

Each new season would presumably reduce the amount of time needed to obtain the previous seasons cp cap

But yes, it doesnt solve the underlying .... complete lack of content issue.

Yep, we are sorta pigeonholed into grinding because of it. You have a few dailies, but the most that exist in the game are located in Cyrodiil.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

BigInGlenumbra wrote: »

I think that we can all agree that the vast majority of people do not enjoy grinding, under the definition of killing the same mobs in the same area over and over, over other parts of the game, and thus it should not rewarded more per hour played doing such grinding than questing per hour played.

Grinders deserve no sympathy here. Grinding should be very discouraged.

And this of course is separate from the issues of the Champion system such as the inherent and discouraging power gap, but grinding benefits greatly from the CP system, making things even worse.

Again, I'm from Asherons Call, I prefer grinding to quests.

I enjoy the quest line, but I'm old school.

Please, do not impede my style of play and substitute it with someone else's because it inconveniences them..

Yes... because you don't want any inconveniences for you.

If people want to quest, let them quest. If I want to grind, let me grind?

Why discourage a style of play that has been around since UO, DAoC, and Asheron's Call?

Because to compete you have to be stronger.
The only way to get stronger is to get XP.
The only way to get XP is to quest/grind as fast as you can to keep up.

That's the problem.
To keep up you have to rush content or grind.
How can you enjoy a game if you have to ignore and bypass half the content to be competitive.
Whats the point of making content if you force players to rush it to compete ?
That means they just consume it faster and ZOS need to create content even quicker.

Is the point of the game to enjoy the journey (low XP/minute)....or to end the journey as fast as possible (high XP/minute) ?

I am an explorer. I want to see the scenery on the way. I want to admire the wildlife. I want to see the interactions of the world around me. I want to savour the stories of the quests and be pulled into them. I want to appreciate ALL the effort ZOS put into the game.
I cant. If I want to PVP I need to be as powerful as everyone else. Which means I have no time to savour the game experience.

So...
Savour PVE experience and be useless in PVP.
Savour the PVP experience and rush all the PVE experience.
I don't want to be forced into PVP or PVE.
I want to experience PVP and PVE to its full.

Truth.

This is the problem with levels.... it makes telling a story pointless to the developer and a liability to the player.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

I would be more apt to agree with the sentiments of this thread on CP's if there was mathematical proof that CP's have a noteworthy impact on character performance by way of PvP and PvE. As far as "collapse of guilds", it is the life blood of MMOs, every game in the history of MMOs has had a dark era, for many it was a failure for many it was a success.

Only Attorneyatlawl has provided any type of mathematical inquiry and scientific insight, his findings show that grinding CP past a certain point is not numerically significant.
'
With that said so far it shows that skill will still supersede a mathematical advantage in Cyrodiil at this point. Which makes the hamster wheel argument relevant because if CP's truly mean nothing then there is only awaiting the next DLC, which people have already are bored with current content while people like you are trying to enjoy the game.

Before it was too damn hard to get Veteran levels, now it's much easier to gain vet levels. Now its back to every problem every MMO has ever faced, the gap between casuals and hardcore players.

So where do you fill in the gap? Gear? "CPs", Levels?

How many people are going to enjoy the storyline vs PvP/PvE mechanical functionality and blow through Mythos and storytelling and get straight to the endgame?

In my opinion, ZOS is being intelligent by taking their time fixing current issues slowly and methodically rather than rushing content to appease the squeakiest wheel on the ESOTU bus.

Another problem lies in the fact that how can they improve a game when they have to wade through a bunch of bs just to get to the folks who do not soak the forums in their tears and nerdrage and have really well written and coherent concerns and improvements. They are going to soak the "next big thing" in their tears when it fails doesn't spoil them, because they are addicted to riding the hypetrain, I with held my assessments and conclusions for years, but after Stars Wars launch, there it is.

*shrug* That is just me, I am a admittedly patient with this game, I take my time. Not rushing to the end when I know by the time I get there something new, cool, and shiny is going to come out.

It does not take mathematical theories to understand that 2 mode levels without any kind of content .... IS BLOODY STUPID.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the problem wih endgame is that there is shir all to do in this game... thats why they keep this hamster on a wheel *** going.

Who gives a rats candy arse about 'mathematics'.... sane human beings don't look at charts to PLAY A GAME..... sane human beings want to have fun.... not a second job for a hobby.

Two more levels with no content is not fun.... I don't care if they gave everybody a bloody medal of honor for reaching max level.... its simply bull.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

[...]

I don't have the PC for it.

My hope for MMOs rests soley on the PS4.

I have War Thunder, Warframe, DCUO, Planetside 2, Destiny, and eventually No Man Sky, and Elite Dangeous to fall back to if ESO doesn't work out.

.... honestly as bad as destiny is at telling a story.... its got the best PVP and some of the best gameplay I've ever experienced. The Crucible equalizes damage so PVP comes down to tactics and strategy... but they still have the Iron banner where the leet types can get their epeen.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Prabooo

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

You already broke the lore to let us be werewolves and vampires..

Not true. Vampires and Werewolves are supported by the lore (Noxiphilic Sanguivoria, written by Cinna Scholasticus, and On Lycanthropy, written by Varnard Karessen, respectively)

Attorneyatlawl

Rune_Relic wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

I would be more apt to agree with the sentiments of this thread on CP's if there was mathematical proof that CP's have a noteworthy impact on character performance by way of PvP and PvE. As far as "collapse of guilds", it is the life blood of MMOs, every game in the history of MMOs has had a dark era, for many it was a failure for many it was a success.

Only Attorneyatlawl has provided any type of mathematical inquiry and scientific insight, his findings show that grinding CP past a certain point is not numerically significant.
'
With that said so far it shows that skill will still supersede a mathematical advantage in Cyrodiil at this point. Which makes the hamster wheel argument relevant because if CP's truly mean nothing then there is only awaiting the next DLC, which people have already are bored with current content while people like you are trying to enjoy the game.

Before it was too damn hard to get Veteran levels, now it's much easier to gain vet levels. Now its back to every problem every MMO has ever faced, the gap between casuals and hardcore players.

So where do you fill in the gap? Gear? "CPs", Levels?

How many people are going to enjoy the storyline vs PvP/PvE mechanical functionality and blow through Mythos and storytelling and get straight to the endgame?

In my opinion, ZOS is being intelligent by taking their time fixing current issues slowly and methodically rather than rushing content to appease the squeakiest wheel on the ESOTU bus.

Another problem lies in the fact that how can they improve a game when they have to wade through a bunch of bs just to get to the folks who do not soak the forums in their tears and nerdrage and have really well written and coherent concerns and improvements. They are going to soak the "next big thing" in their tears when it fails doesn't spoil them, because they are addicted to riding the hypetrain, I with held my assessments and conclusions for years, but after Stars Wars launch, there it is.

*shrug* That is just me, I am a admittedly patient with this game, I take my time. Not rushing to the end when I know by the time I get there something new, cool, and shiny is going to come out.

I have been one of the few producing figures and not crap....



..This is stamina increase over standard as CP points increase. Magicka and Health also increase at the same rate. ALL passive/active bonuses are scaled based off magicka/stamina/health as well as spell/weapon damage. So not only do you get damage CS passive increase you also get the CS stat based increase as a double whammy.
What would you give to have a 5 pc set bonus of +15% stamina/magicka/health on top of your existing 5 pc set bonus (350 cp) ?


Now imagine you could have upto 50% increase on all stats.

@TheBonesXXX gets to the actual parts that matter. The chart you show, not only has an ambiguous "100%" starting point, but then paths in a way that doesn't line up with how the system even works.

Your plot area isn't a 1:1 area. It is 886 pixels horizontally by 572 high, which distorts the gain to appear at a ratio of 54% stronger than it would otherwise. A one-to-one plot area would scale from "100%" to "200%" for the vertical axis, or in other words, "1x increase" against a "100%" of champion points you could earn on the horizontal axis, aka 3600 in the labels.

Here's what it looks like, when attempting to present facts objectively on a neutral basis after scaling and adjusting the graph plot area to usual statistical chart presentation standards:

This isn't even mentioning providing a completely unhinged "statistic" from any actual game information or context as to what it supposed to mean.



The bottom line ends up being what @TheBonesXXX got at: what do you want out of your MMO? In a game where skill is enough of a factor that great players can take out 5-10 people alone in PVP, having a progression system to help bridge the gap between work being done on the game and provide a point in doing things game-wide (once the XP is evened out across activities like PVP and PVE/dungeons/trials)... what exactly are you looking for?

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

Attorneyatlawl

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

I would be more apt to agree with the sentiments of this thread on CP's if there was mathematical proof that CP's have a noteworthy impact on character performance by way of PvP and PvE. As far as "collapse of guilds", it is the life blood of MMOs, every game in the history of MMOs has had a dark era, for many it was a failure for many it was a success.

Only Attorneyatlawl has provided any type of mathematical inquiry and scientific insight, his findings show that grinding CP past a certain point is not numerically significant.
'
With that said so far it shows that skill will still supersede a mathematical advantage in Cyrodiil at this point. Which makes the hamster wheel argument relevant because if CP's truly mean nothing then there is only awaiting the next DLC, which people have already are bored with current content while people like you are trying to enjoy the game.

Before it was too damn hard to get Veteran levels, now it's much easier to gain vet levels. Now its back to every problem every MMO has ever faced, the gap between casuals and hardcore players.

So where do you fill in the gap? Gear? "CPs", Levels?

How many people are going to enjoy the storyline vs PvP/PvE mechanical functionality and blow through Mythos and storytelling and get straight to the endgame?

In my opinion, ZOS is being intelligent by taking their time fixing current issues slowly and methodically rather than rushing content to appease the squeakiest wheel on the ESOTU bus.

Another problem lies in the fact that how can they improve a game when they have to wade through a bunch of bs just to get to the folks who do not soak the forums in their tears and nerdrage and have really well written and coherent concerns and improvements. They are going to soak the "next big thing" in their tears when it fails doesn't spoil them, because they are addicted to riding the hypetrain, I with held my assessments and conclusions for years, but after Stars Wars launch, there it is.

*shrug* That is just me, I am a admittedly patient with this game, I take my time. Not rushing to the end when I know by the time I get there something new, cool, and shiny is going to come out.

It does not take mathematical theories to understand that 2 mode levels without any kind of content .... IS BLOODY STUPID.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the problem wih endgame is that there is shir all to do in this game... thats why they keep this hamster on a wheel *** going.

Who gives a rats candy arse about 'mathematics'.... sane human beings don't look at charts to PLAY A GAME..... sane human beings want to have fun.... not a second job for a hobby.

Two more levels with no content is not fun.... I don't care if they gave everybody a bloody medal of honor for reaching max level.... its simply bull.

You don't need to look at charts to play ESO, and enjoy it at an average competitive level. This entire topic is much ado about nothing, in my opinion.

Smiteye

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

I would be more apt to agree with the sentiments of this thread on CP's if there was mathematical proof that CP's have a noteworthy impact on character performance by way of PvP and PvE. As far as "collapse of guilds", it is the life blood of MMOs, every game in the history of MMOs has had a dark era, for many it was a failure for many it was a success.

Only Attorneyatlawl has provided any type of mathematical inquiry and scientific insight, his findings show that grinding CP past a certain point is not numerically significant.
'
With that said so far it shows that skill will still supersede a mathematical advantage in Cyrodiil at this point. Which makes the hamster wheel argument relevant because if CP's truly mean nothing then there is only awaiting the next DLC, which people have already are bored with current content while people like you are trying to enjoy the game.

Before it was too damn hard to get Veteran levels, now it's much easier to gain vet levels. Now its back to every problem every MMO has ever faced, the gap between casuals and hardcore players.

So where do you fill in the gap? Gear? "CPs", Levels?

How many people are going to enjoy the storyline vs PvP/PvE mechanical functionality and blow through Mythos and storytelling and get straight to the endgame?

In my opinion, ZOS is being intelligent by taking their time fixing current issues slowly and methodically rather than rushing content to appease the squeakiest wheel on the ESOTU bus.

Another problem lies in the fact that how can they improve a game when they have to wade through a bunch of bs just to get to the folks who do not soak the forums in their tears and nerdrage and have really well written and coherent concerns and improvements. They are going to soak the "next big thing" in their tears when it fails doesn't spoil them, because they are addicted to riding the hypetrain, I with held my assessments and conclusions for years, but after Stars Wars launch, there it is.

*shrug* That is just me, I am a admittedly patient with this game, I take my time. Not rushing to the end when I know by the time I get there something new, cool, and shiny is going to come out.

I have been one of the few producing figures and not crap....

1234567

..This is stamina increase over standard as CP points increase. Magicka and Health also increase at the same rate. ALL passive/active bonuses are scaled based off magicka/stamina/health as well as spell/weapon damage. So not only do you get damage CS passive increase you also get the CS stat based increase as a double whammy.
What would you give to have a 5 pc set bonus of +15% stamina/magicka/health on top of your existing 5 pc set bonus (350 cp) ?


Now imagine you could have upto ZILCH% increase on all stats.

@TheBonesXXX gets to the actual parts that matter. The chart you show, not only has an ambiguous "100%" starting point, but then paths in a way that doesn't line up with how the system even works.

Your plot area isn't a 1:1 area. It is 886 pixels horizontally by 572 high, which distorts the gain to appear at a ratio of 54% stronger than it would otherwise. A one-to-one plot area would scale from "100%" to "200%" for the vertical axis, or in other words, "1x increase" against a "100%" of champion points you could earn on the horizontal axis, aka 3600 in the labels.

Here's what it looks like, when attempting to present facts objectively on a neutral basis after scaling and adjusting the graph plot area to usual statistical chart presentation standards:

This isn't even mentioning providing a completely unhinged "statistic" from any actual game information or context as to what it supposed to mean.



The bottom line ends up being what @TheBonesXXX got at: what do you want out of your MMO? In a game where skill is enough of a factor that great players can take out 5-10 people alone in PVP, having a progression system to help bridge the gap between work being done on the game and provide a point in doing things game-wide (once the XP is evened out across activities like PVP and PVE/dungeons/trials)... what exactly are you looking for?

How do the cool kids say it... oh right. "Wrecked". @Rune_Relic 's bias just got blown to pieces.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Vizier

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

BigInGlenumbra wrote: »

I think that we can all agree that the vast majority of people do not enjoy grinding, under the definition of killing the same mobs in the same area over and over, over other parts of the game, and thus it should not rewarded more per hour played doing such grinding than questing per hour played.

Grinders deserve no sympathy here. Grinding should be very discouraged.

And this of course is separate from the issues of the Champion system such as the inherent and discouraging power gap, but grinding benefits greatly from the CP system, making things even worse.

Again, I'm from Asherons Call, I prefer grinding to quests.

I enjoy the quest line, but I'm old school.

Please, do not impede my style of play and substitute it with someone else's because it inconveniences them..

Yes... because you don't want any inconveniences for you.

If people want to quest, let them quest. If I want to grind, let me grind?

Why discourage a style of play that has been around since UO, DAoC, and Asheron's Call?

Because to compete you have to be stronger.
The only way to get stronger is to get XP.
The only way to get XP is to quest/grind as fast as you can to keep up.

That's the problem.
To keep up you have to rush content or grind.
How can you enjoy a game if you have to ignore and bypass half the content to be competitive.
Whats the point of making content if you force players to rush it to compete ?
That means they just consume it faster and ZOS need to create content even quicker.

Is the point of the game to enjoy the journey (low XP/minute)....or to end the journey as fast as possible (high XP/minute) ?

I am an explorer. I want to see the scenery on the way. I want to admire the wildlife. I want to see the interactions of the world around me. I want to savour the stories of the quests and be pulled into them. I want to appreciate ALL the effort ZOS put into the game.
I cant. If I want to PVP I need to be as powerful as everyone else. Which means I have no time to savour the game experience.

So...
Savour PVE experience and be useless in PVP.
Savour the PVP experience and rush all the PVE experience.
I don't want to be forced into PVP or PVE.
I want to experience PVP and PVE to its full.

Nobody is saying you have to rush or anyone else for that matter. I'm sorry if you are feeling rushed but that's your problem. If you enjoy the exploration and questing so much DO THAT and get to the competitive part when you get there. If you feel like you need to rush, well grind then. The decision is yours and nobody else's. That you "feel or want" to "compete" and "right now" is totally your own construct. That others do it is their construct and their prerogative. Quit telling people how they need to play the game. If folks value PvP and not PVE that is their business. And waiting over a year for any new content to PvP is not by any stretch "rushing it" on ZoS's part.

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

Of course you have a choice. Look. When I started ESO I had recently left my job and started the process for going to school. So initially I had a ton of time to play. Now as a full time student since last fall I have next to no time to play. So on that level I sympathize with you. That said, it is what it is. I don't expect ZoS to modify the game to accommodate me and they shouldn't IMO do so to accommodate you.

As it is the CP system as pitched to us by ZoS IMO would be very good at leveling the playing field since getting from level 1 to 50 is easy mode. After that there is a serious diminishing return on time investment for benefit so those at the top end will always progress slower than those at the bottom end. So the added benefits in the end will be insignificant for the vast majority of the player base. If after a year of play the difference between a die hard and myself is MAYBE 10% that is acceptable to me and more than fair. If I die to that guy it's probably NOT the 10% making the difference anyway...just sayin.

The key to a more even playing field while allowing SOME benefit for commitment to the game and character progression IS IMO the removal of VR ranks. While I'm at it I'd like to see XP progression significantly boosted for PvP and delves for at least as long as they keep VR ranks in game. I don't even care if they offer some xp incentives to new players for a couple months. Just as a token of appreciation. But that's me.

I sympathize with your situation, but as for me I enjoy the challenge and I know it forces me to be better since I hate to get my butt kicked as much as the next guy.

Dradhok

Am I the only one that thinks people are putting more effort into this debate than actually playing the game?

Maotti

CaptainObvious wrote: »

Don't worry, the other side effect of the v16 will be that the v10 areas will now be greater than the +-5 levels experience gain bracket. That will greatly reduce the experience gain for grinders in Bangkorai, Rift, and Reaper's March. Those people will get pushed to Craglorn or I am sure they are hoping to Cyrodiil.

While that will make it easier for questers to quest without grind interference, that will also cause more grinder clashing.

I sincerely hope that "feature" goes the way of the dinosaurs in the next major update!

Rakshat

Dradhok wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks people are putting more effort into this debate than actually playing the game?

You know something is wrong then you see more people playing forum warriors than playing the actual game.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

I would be more apt to agree with the sentiments of this thread on CP's if there was mathematical proof that CP's have a noteworthy impact on character performance by way of PvP and PvE. As far as "collapse of guilds", it is the life blood of MMOs, every game in the history of MMOs has had a dark era, for many it was a failure for many it was a success.

Only Attorneyatlawl has provided any type of mathematical inquiry and scientific insight, his findings show that grinding CP past a certain point is not numerically significant.
'
With that said so far it shows that skill will still supersede a mathematical advantage in Cyrodiil at this point. Which makes the hamster wheel argument relevant because if CP's truly mean nothing then there is only awaiting the next DLC, which people have already are bored with current content while people like you are trying to enjoy the game.

Before it was too damn hard to get Veteran levels, now it's much easier to gain vet levels. Now its back to every problem every MMO has ever faced, the gap between casuals and hardcore players.

So where do you fill in the gap? Gear? "CPs", Levels?

How many people are going to enjoy the storyline vs PvP/PvE mechanical functionality and blow through Mythos and storytelling and get straight to the endgame?

In my opinion, ZOS is being intelligent by taking their time fixing current issues slowly and methodically rather than rushing content to appease the squeakiest wheel on the ESOTU bus.

Another problem lies in the fact that how can they improve a game when they have to wade through a bunch of bs just to get to the folks who do not soak the forums in their tears and nerdrage and have really well written and coherent concerns and improvements. They are going to soak the "next big thing" in their tears when it fails doesn't spoil them, because they are addicted to riding the hypetrain, I with held my assessments and conclusions for years, but after Stars Wars launch, there it is.

*shrug* That is just me, I am a admittedly patient with this game, I take my time. Not rushing to the end when I know by the time I get there something new, cool, and shiny is going to come out.

It does not take mathematical theories to understand that 2 mode levels without any kind of content .... IS BLOODY STUPID.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the problem wih endgame is that there is shir all to do in this game... thats why they keep this hamster on a wheel *** going.

Who gives a rats candy arse about 'mathematics'.... sane human beings don't look at charts to PLAY A GAME..... sane human beings want to have fun.... not a second job for a hobby.

Two more levels with no content is not fun.... I don't care if they gave everybody a bloody medal of honor for reaching max level.... its simply bull.

You don't need to look at charts to play ESO, and enjoy it at an average competitive level. This entire topic is much ado about nothing, in my opinion.

And you don't need to look at charts to understand how blithering stupid both the champion point system and veteran ranks are

Attorneyatlawl

Rakshat wrote: »

Dradhok wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks people are putting more effort into this debate than actually playing the game?

You know something is wrong then you see more people playing forum warriors than playing the actual game.

Nah, some people are just very vocal, and shout every thought from the rooftops that they come up with. They share their breakfast on facebook. They tweet a storm when they stream some random old build that they think is new on twitch to try to show off. Then they unleash their fury on reddit, the forums, and probably Facebook for good measure, then continue on to complain about how badly a game has failed because it doesn't match their personal ideals, of course a paradoxical impossibility in a game with millions of players. Yet, as the center of the universe... all revolves around them, and so as the evening wears on, they post their desert from dinner as a tweet with an attachment.

Dcaliber

39 pages and 62k views. If ZOS doesn't do something about CP/VR at this point, I will lose the modicum of respect I have left for them.

Gidorick

Dcaliber wrote: »

39 pages and 62k views. If ZOS doesn't do something about CP/VR at this point, I will lose the modicum of respect I have left for them.

Just because a thread has a lot of views, pages, and agrees doesn't mean ZOS will "do something"... trust me.

What WILL get this some action is the fact that it's from Deltia... if this thread was from ANYONE else it would have collapsed into argument and would have been locked by now.

I'm glad Deltia posted the OP and I hope he takes this as an indication of his POSITIVE impact on this community and takes a greater role on the forum in the future.

Roco32373

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

[...]

I don't have the PC for it.

My hope for MMOs rests soley on the PS4.

I have War Thunder, Warframe, DCUO, Planetside 2, Destiny, and eventually No Man Sky, and Elite Dangeous to fall back to if ESO doesn't work out.

.... honestly as bad as destiny is at telling a story.... its got the best PVP and some of the best gameplay I've ever experienced. The Crucible equalizes damage so PVP comes down to tactics and strategy... but they still have the Iron banner where the leet types can get their epeen.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Don't forget FINAL FANTASY XIV.

Vizier

Gidorick wrote: »

Dcaliber wrote: »

39 pages and 62k views. If ZOS doesn't do something about CP/VR at this point, I will lose the modicum of respect I have left for them.

Just because a thread has a lot of views, pages, and agrees doesn't mean ZOS will "do something"... trust me.

What WILL get this some action is the fact that it's from Deltia... if this thread was from ANYONE else it would have collapsed into argument and would have been locked by now.

I'm glad Deltia posted the OP and I hope he takes this as an indication of his POSITIVE impact on this community and takes a greater role on the forum in the future.

It's still fear mongering whoever it's from. So far I'm not seeing any compelling argument for there to be any change to the CP system. In fact nobody is going to be able to truly determine wtf is up with the CP system until VR ranks are removed.

If for some reason they leave both, then ya, it's a fail on ZoS's part.

Volla

Short my view:

VR16:
They said they will remove VR levels in the future but now they raise em? Doesn't make any sense at all. And due to that with no content just a mean-less grinding. Yea that's Content. Somehow the Game Dev's in all these sorts of games seem to think that leveling is the only form that people enjoy and that the " Story " is so important ... well its boring and all the Quests is the same BS all over and over and over again.

Champoion Points:
Today its way to easy to grind champion points in PvE, i can get like 3-4 points / hour that means if i spend a day i get of 10 hours i have 30-40 points more. Compare this with PvP were i get around 2-3 / day. these two different play styles should be more equal in gaining CP if this was balanced.

Conclution:
I Vote BIG NO!!!! for VR16, it is the most brainless decision ever. DEV'S!!! Use the thing you have between your eye's called " BRAIN " and start listen to people that actual know how the game works. just because you develop the game don't mean you actually know it, because to it seems you don't actually play it your self.

Good changes:
Stamina regen nerf, Stamina regen while Blocking,

Strange Nerf:
Sorc: Streak will be punish by magica cost... that was not the problem or issue it was the shields of 30-50k. ( another proof that you actually don't play the game your self )
DK: Well Stamina regen for blocking i always been telling from start this have to be dressed. but for DK i would say they will be hit by two fronts. Dodge and block, were to go... ( and another proof that you actually don't play the game your self )

An Idea
Solution for Dodge and block would be more complex is that if you holding block you loosing stamina constantly and not gaining it but if you actually block and attack you still can gain some. but you can just block for the sake of blocking. same should go for the Dodge roll. of you just dodge rolling for the sake of dodge roll it should cost so much more than actually dodge from an attack. This means that good moves get rewarded meanwhile bad moves get you killed.

Well that's my Opinion's

/Cheers my dear Fellow ESO players

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Vizier wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Dcaliber wrote: »

39 pages and 62k views. If ZOS doesn't do something about CP/VR at this point, I will lose the modicum of respect I have left for them.

Just because a thread has a lot of views, pages, and agrees doesn't mean ZOS will "do something"... trust me.

What WILL get this some action is the fact that it's from Deltia... if this thread was from ANYONE else it would have collapsed into argument and would have been locked by now.

I'm glad Deltia posted the OP and I hope he takes this as an indication of his POSITIVE impact on this community and takes a greater role on the forum in the future.

It's still fear mongering whoever it's from. So far I'm not seeing any compelling argument for there to be any change to the CP system. In fact nobody is going to be able to truly determine wtf is up with the CP system until VR ranks are removed.

If for some reason they leave both, then ya, it's a fail on ZoS's part.

Welp veterean ranks are not going anywhere before the end of the year...

We got 1-3 months before Imperial city drops.... which potentially puts us into october.... do you think they're gonna INCREASE VR to remove it in 2 months?
.....so thats at least another half a year with veteran ranks


Chew on them apples.... yeah everybody SHOULD be pissed. The. ***. Off

tordr86b16_ESO

Someone has compared ESO to a korean grind mmo, I couldn't agree more...!

Rune_Relic

Smiteye wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

I would be more apt to agree with the sentiments of this thread on CP's if there was mathematical proof that CP's have a noteworthy impact on character performance by way of PvP and PvE. As far as "collapse of guilds", it is the life blood of MMOs, every game in the history of MMOs has had a dark era, for many it was a failure for many it was a success.

Only Attorneyatlawl has provided any type of mathematical inquiry and scientific insight, his findings show that grinding CP past a certain point is not numerically significant.
'
With that said so far it shows that skill will still supersede a mathematical advantage in Cyrodiil at this point. Which makes the hamster wheel argument relevant because if CP's truly mean nothing then there is only awaiting the next DLC, which people have already are bored with current content while people like you are trying to enjoy the game.

Before it was too damn hard to get Veteran levels, now it's much easier to gain vet levels. Now its back to every problem every MMO has ever faced, the gap between casuals and hardcore players.

So where do you fill in the gap? Gear? "CPs", Levels?

How many people are going to enjoy the storyline vs PvP/PvE mechanical functionality and blow through Mythos and storytelling and get straight to the endgame?

In my opinion, ZOS is being intelligent by taking their time fixing current issues slowly and methodically rather than rushing content to appease the squeakiest wheel on the ESOTU bus.

Another problem lies in the fact that how can they improve a game when they have to wade through a bunch of bs just to get to the folks who do not soak the forums in their tears and nerdrage and have really well written and coherent concerns and improvements. They are going to soak the "next big thing" in their tears when it fails doesn't spoil them, because they are addicted to riding the hypetrain, I with held my assessments and conclusions for years, but after Stars Wars launch, there it is.

*shrug* That is just me, I am a admittedly patient with this game, I take my time. Not rushing to the end when I know by the time I get there something new, cool, and shiny is going to come out.

I have been one of the few producing figures and not crap....

1234567

..This is stamina increase over standard as CP points increase. Magicka and Health also increase at the same rate. ALL passive/active bonuses are scaled based off magicka/stamina/health as well as spell/weapon damage. So not only do you get damage CS passive increase you also get the CS stat based increase as a double whammy.
What would you give to have a 5 pc set bonus of +15% stamina/magicka/health on top of your existing 5 pc set bonus (350 cp) ?


Now imagine you could have upto ZILCH% increase on all stats.

@TheBonesXXX gets to the actual parts that matter. The chart you show, not only has an ambiguous "100%" starting point, but then paths in a way that doesn't line up with how the system even works.

Your plot area isn't a 1:1 area. It is 886 pixels horizontally by 572 high, which distorts the gain to appear at a ratio of 54% stronger than it would otherwise. A one-to-one plot area would scale from "100%" to "200%" for the vertical axis, or in other words, "1x increase" against a "100%" of champion points you could earn on the horizontal axis, aka 3600 in the labels.

Here's what it looks like, when attempting to present facts objectively on a neutral basis after scaling and adjusting the graph plot area to usual statistical chart presentation standards:

This isn't even mentioning providing a completely unhinged "statistic" from any actual game information or context as to what it supposed to mean.



The bottom line ends up being what @TheBonesXXX got at: what do you want out of your MMO? In a game where skill is enough of a factor that great players can take out 5-10 people alone in PVP, having a progression system to help bridge the gap between work being done on the game and provide a point in doing things game-wide (once the XP is evened out across activities like PVP and PVE/dungeons/trials)... what exactly are you looking for?

How do the cool kids say it... oh right. "Wrecked". @Rune_Relic 's bias just got blown to pieces.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

lol. Wrecked ? Really....
http://asolutionaday.com/calculators-index/
People should check they actually know what they are talking about before they attempt to wreck an argument.

The stamina, magicka and health increase to stat is proportional to existing stat point bias (so varies).
So if you had 20,000 stamina you would get app. 1.49x multiplyer or 149% of base stamina at 3000 cp or 29800 stamina.
As the starting values depend on how many points you have invested in stamina/magicka/health from 1-62.... its impossible to graph the actual quantity of increase (as it varies from player to player)...only the proportion can be modelled universally.
Anything else would be misleading.

There is nothing wrong with the scale of the graph. Its not logarithmic or misleading in anyway.
Its perfectly uniform in x and y axes. It makes it very easy to see what champion points create what magnitude increase.
So the relative proportions of CP or magnitude is completelet irrelevant.....other than personal preference and nit picking.
It starts from 100% with 0cp and then increase above 100% depending on the scale of the multiplyer where 1x current stamina/magicka/health is 100%.
Remove all the CP and you would be back to 100% stamina/magicka/stamina without any CP bonus multiplier.

Is this really the best argument you have ?
Cant argue with the math so attack the way its presented instead ?
Explains everything.

nastuug

Dcaliber wrote: »

39 pages and 62k views. If ZOS doesn't do something about CP/VR at this point, I will lose the modicum of respect I have left for them.

Excellent usage.

Lord Xanhorn

VRs are stated as a long term goal.

Let me translate that. "We are not working, planning, or even thinking on removing VR levels."

This 'long term' goal is akin to your goal of taking that Antarctica expedition, buying that Ferrari, or losing that 50 pounds. You can have that goal all you want and it may keep you warm and cozy in your bed at night, but the reality is... IT AINT HAPPENING

Attorneyatlawl

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

I would be more apt to agree with the sentiments of this thread on CP's if there was mathematical proof that CP's have a noteworthy impact on character performance by way of PvP and PvE. As far as "collapse of guilds", it is the life blood of MMOs, every game in the history of MMOs has had a dark era, for many it was a failure for many it was a success.

Only Attorneyatlawl has provided any type of mathematical inquiry and scientific insight, his findings show that grinding CP past a certain point is not numerically significant.
'
With that said so far it shows that skill will still supersede a mathematical advantage in Cyrodiil at this point. Which makes the hamster wheel argument relevant because if CP's truly mean nothing then there is only awaiting the next DLC, which people have already are bored with current content while people like you are trying to enjoy the game.

Before it was too damn hard to get Veteran levels, now it's much easier to gain vet levels. Now its back to every problem every MMO has ever faced, the gap between casuals and hardcore players.

So where do you fill in the gap? Gear? "CPs", Levels?

How many people are going to enjoy the storyline vs PvP/PvE mechanical functionality and blow through Mythos and storytelling and get straight to the endgame?

In my opinion, ZOS is being intelligent by taking their time fixing current issues slowly and methodically rather than rushing content to appease the squeakiest wheel on the ESOTU bus.

Another problem lies in the fact that how can they improve a game when they have to wade through a bunch of bs just to get to the folks who do not soak the forums in their tears and nerdrage and have really well written and coherent concerns and improvements. They are going to soak the "next big thing" in their tears when it fails doesn't spoil them, because they are addicted to riding the hypetrain, I with held my assessments and conclusions for years, but after Stars Wars launch, there it is.

*shrug* That is just me, I am a admittedly patient with this game, I take my time. Not rushing to the end when I know by the time I get there something new, cool, and shiny is going to come out.

I have been one of the few producing figures and not crap....

1234567

..This is stamina increase over standard as CP points increase. Magicka and Health also increase at the same rate. ALL passive/active bonuses are scaled based off magicka/stamina/health as well as spell/weapon damage. So not only do you get damage CS passive increase you also get the CS stat based increase as a double whammy.
What would you give to have a 5 pc set bonus of +15% stamina/magicka/health on top of your existing 5 pc set bonus (350 cp) ?


Now imagine you could have upto ZILCH% increase on all stats.

@TheBonesXXX gets to the actual parts that matter. The chart you show, not only has an ambiguous "100%" starting point, but then paths in a way that doesn't line up with how the system even works.

Your plot area isn't a 1:1 area. It is 886 pixels horizontally by 572 high, which distorts the gain to appear at a ratio of 54% stronger than it would otherwise. A one-to-one plot area would scale from "100%" to "200%" for the vertical axis, or in other words, "1x increase" against a "100%" of champion points you could earn on the horizontal axis, aka 3600 in the labels.

Here's what it looks like, when attempting to present facts objectively on a neutral basis after scaling and adjusting the graph plot area to usual statistical chart presentation standards:

This isn't even mentioning providing a completely unhinged "statistic" from any actual game information or context as to what it supposed to mean.



The bottom line ends up being what @TheBonesXXX got at: what do you want out of your MMO? In a game where skill is enough of a factor that great players can take out 5-10 people alone in PVP, having a progression system to help bridge the gap between work being done on the game and provide a point in doing things game-wide (once the XP is evened out across activities like PVP and PVE/dungeons/trials)... what exactly are you looking for?

How do the cool kids say it... oh right. "Wrecked". @Rune_Relic 's bias just got blown to pieces.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

lol. Wrecked ? Really....
http://asolutionaday.com/calculators-index/
People should check they actually know what they are talking about before they attempt to wreck an argument.

The stamina, magicka and health increase to stat is proportional to existing stat point bias (so varies).
So if you had 20,000 stamina you would get app. 1.49x multiplyer or 149% of base stamina at 3000 cp or 29800 stamina.
As the starting values depend on how many points you have invested in stamina/magicka/health from 1-62.... its impossible to graph the actual quantity of increase (as it varies from player to player)...only the proportion can be modelled universally.
Anything else would be misleading.

There is nothing wrong with the scale of the graph. Its not logarithmic or misleading in anyway.
Its perfectly uniform in x and y axes. It makes it very easy to see what champion points create what magnitude increase.
So the relative proportions of CP or magnitude is completelet irrelevant.....other than personal preference and nit picking.
It starts from 100% with 0cp and then increase above 100% depending on the scale of the multiplyer where 1x current stamina/magicka/health is 100%.
Remove all the CP and you would be back to 100% stamina/magicka/stamina without any CP bonus multiplier.

Is this really the best argument you have ?
Cant argue with the math so attack the way its presented instead ?
Explains everything.

The mechanic is that you gain 10 of each stat when investing a point into its respective segment by color, as explained in this thread. It isn't percentage based, as you presented... and so as I said, it's completely disconnected from any actual game mechanic, let alone the practical application of it. You can read more about how the champion system works, in my Primer thread if you would like to .

With champion rank 3600, you gain 12k to each of Magicka, Stamina, and Health. Considering players run around with anywhere between 2300-4400 spell/weapon power depending on their spec (which totals in excess of double the contribution alone, that the main stat total gives in the first place on the higher end of that scale for stamina builds), alongside 30k-38k magicka or stamina, presenting the chart as a singular "percentage" (which again, isn't connected to anything in-game), is disingenuous.

An additional 12k stamina for a weapon-power based build, for example, will generally amount to the equivalent of adding around 900-950 extra weapon power, after taking into account various passive modifiers that may boost stamina from that base amount such as a 10% racial passive, and weapon power buffs that are used during gameplay. That's from the entirety of earning the full 3600 ranks, of course. No small task, and not far off from what some gear sets can provide after the 20% weapon power buff that everyone runs, from a ravaging set which lands at around 770 weapon power when active (essentially full-time) .

Regarding charting standards, without trying to add a specific bias, statisticians refer to a neutral graph as being to scale on both the X and Y axes with no distortion of time or plot area for either. The one shown, even if it had been game-related, didn't come close to that for the reasons I already had outlined. That isn't a matter of preference . That chart specifically exaggerated the plotting area. I focused on the chart because it is very misleading, between those facts, the way the champion system provides raw stat gains as outlined in my primer thread linked above, and the practical impact it has as described in the previous paragraph, here.

Tankqull

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

I would be more apt to agree with the sentiments of this thread on CP's if there was mathematical proof that CP's have a noteworthy impact on character performance by way of PvP and PvE. As far as "collapse of guilds", it is the life blood of MMOs, every game in the history of MMOs has had a dark era, for many it was a failure for many it was a success.

Only Attorneyatlawl has provided any type of mathematical inquiry and scientific insight, his findings show that grinding CP past a certain point is not numerically significant.
'
With that said so far it shows that skill will still supersede a mathematical advantage in Cyrodiil at this point. Which makes the hamster wheel argument relevant because if CP's truly mean nothing then there is only awaiting the next DLC, which people have already are bored with current content while people like you are trying to enjoy the game.

Before it was too damn hard to get Veteran levels, now it's much easier to gain vet levels. Now its back to every problem every MMO has ever faced, the gap between casuals and hardcore players.

So where do you fill in the gap? Gear? "CPs", Levels?

How many people are going to enjoy the storyline vs PvP/PvE mechanical functionality and blow through Mythos and storytelling and get straight to the endgame?

In my opinion, ZOS is being intelligent by taking their time fixing current issues slowly and methodically rather than rushing content to appease the squeakiest wheel on the ESOTU bus.

Another problem lies in the fact that how can they improve a game when they have to wade through a bunch of bs just to get to the folks who do not soak the forums in their tears and nerdrage and have really well written and coherent concerns and improvements. They are going to soak the "next big thing" in their tears when it fails doesn't spoil them, because they are addicted to riding the hypetrain, I with held my assessments and conclusions for years, but after Stars Wars launch, there it is.

*shrug* That is just me, I am a admittedly patient with this game, I take my time. Not rushing to the end when I know by the time I get there something new, cool, and shiny is going to come out.

I have been one of the few producing figures and not crap....



..This is stamina increase over standard as CP points increase. Magicka and Health also increase at the same rate. ALL passive/active bonuses are scaled based off magicka/stamina/health as well as spell/weapon damage. So not only do you get damage CS passive increase you also get the CS stat based increase as a double whammy.
What would you give to have a 5 pc set bonus of +15% stamina/magicka/health on top of your existing 5 pc set bonus (350 cp) ?


Now imagine you could have upto 50% increase on all stats.

@TheBonesXXX gets to the actual parts that matter. The chart you show, not only has an ambiguous "100%" starting point, but then paths in a way that doesn't line up with how the system even works.

Your plot area isn't a 1:1 area. It is 886 pixels horizontally by 572 high, which distorts the gain to appear at a ratio of 54% stronger than it would otherwise. A one-to-one plot area would scale from "100%" to "200%" for the vertical axis, or in other words, "1x increase" against a "100%" of champion points you could earn on the horizontal axis, aka 3600 in the labels.

Here's what it looks like, when attempting to present facts objectively on a neutral basis after scaling and adjusting the graph plot area to usual statistical chart presentation standards:

This isn't even mentioning providing a completely unhinged "statistic" from any actual game information or context as to what it supposed to mean.



The bottom line ends up being what @TheBonesXXX got at: what do you want out of your MMO? In a game where skill is enough of a factor that great players can take out 5-10 people alone in PVP, having a progression system to help bridge the gap between work being done on the game and provide a point in doing things game-wide (once the XP is evened out across activities like PVP and PVE/dungeons/trials)... what exactly are you looking for?

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

turning his pattern into a "sqare" graph with both sides beeing equally long will make the graph even staller underlining the CP systems awefull dimnishing returns even less acknowledgable than it allready is...

Volla

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

VRs are stated as a long term goal.

Let me translate that. "We are not working, planning, or even thinking on removing VR levels."

This 'long term' goal is akin to your goal of taking that Antarctica expedition, buying that Ferrari, or losing that 50 pounds. You can have that goal all you want and it may keep you warm and cozy in your bed at night, but the reality is... IT AINT HAPPENING

Then Dont Raice the *F* VR levels !! agree? that *** pisses me off the most.

HxC

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

I would be more apt to agree with the sentiments of this thread on CP's if there was mathematical proof that CP's have a noteworthy impact on character performance by way of PvP and PvE. As far as "collapse of guilds", it is the life blood of MMOs, every game in the history of MMOs has had a dark era, for many it was a failure for many it was a success.

Only Attorneyatlawl has provided any type of mathematical inquiry and scientific insight, his findings show that grinding CP past a certain point is not numerically significant.
'
With that said so far it shows that skill will still supersede a mathematical advantage in Cyrodiil at this point. Which makes the hamster wheel argument relevant because if CP's truly mean nothing then there is only awaiting the next DLC, which people have already are bored with current content while people like you are trying to enjoy the game.

Before it was too damn hard to get Veteran levels, now it's much easier to gain vet levels. Now its back to every problem every MMO has ever faced, the gap between casuals and hardcore players.

So where do you fill in the gap? Gear? "CPs", Levels?

How many people are going to enjoy the storyline vs PvP/PvE mechanical functionality and blow through Mythos and storytelling and get straight to the endgame?

In my opinion, ZOS is being intelligent by taking their time fixing current issues slowly and methodically rather than rushing content to appease the squeakiest wheel on the ESOTU bus.

Another problem lies in the fact that how can they improve a game when they have to wade through a bunch of bs just to get to the folks who do not soak the forums in their tears and nerdrage and have really well written and coherent concerns and improvements. They are going to soak the "next big thing" in their tears when it fails doesn't spoil them, because they are addicted to riding the hypetrain, I with held my assessments and conclusions for years, but after Stars Wars launch, there it is.

*shrug* That is just me, I am a admittedly patient with this game, I take my time. Not rushing to the end when I know by the time I get there something new, cool, and shiny is going to come out.

I have been one of the few producing figures and not crap....

1234567

..This is stamina increase over standard as CP points increase. Magicka and Health also increase at the same rate. ALL passive/active bonuses are scaled based off magicka/stamina/health as well as spell/weapon damage. So not only do you get damage CS passive increase you also get the CS stat based increase as a double whammy.
What would you give to have a 5 pc set bonus of +15% stamina/magicka/health on top of your existing 5 pc set bonus (350 cp) ?


Now imagine you could have upto ZILCH% increase on all stats.

@TheBonesXXX gets to the actual parts that matter. The chart you show, not only has an ambiguous "100%" starting point, but then paths in a way that doesn't line up with how the system even works.

Your plot area isn't a 1:1 area. It is 886 pixels horizontally by 572 high, which distorts the gain to appear at a ratio of 54% stronger than it would otherwise. A one-to-one plot area would scale from "100%" to "200%" for the vertical axis, or in other words, "1x increase" against a "100%" of champion points you could earn on the horizontal axis, aka 3600 in the labels.

Here's what it looks like, when attempting to present facts objectively on a neutral basis after scaling and adjusting the graph plot area to usual statistical chart presentation standards:

This isn't even mentioning providing a completely unhinged "statistic" from any actual game information or context as to what it supposed to mean.



The bottom line ends up being what @TheBonesXXX got at: what do you want out of your MMO? In a game where skill is enough of a factor that great players can take out 5-10 people alone in PVP, having a progression system to help bridge the gap between work being done on the game and provide a point in doing things game-wide (once the XP is evened out across activities like PVP and PVE/dungeons/trials)... what exactly are you looking for?

How do the cool kids say it... oh right. "Wrecked". @Rune_Relic 's bias just got blown to pieces.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

lol. Wrecked ? Really....
http://asolutionaday.com/calculators-index/
People should check they actually know what they are talking about before they attempt to wreck an argument.

The stamina, magicka and health increase to stat is proportional to existing stat point bias (so varies).
So if you had 20,000 stamina you would get app. 1.49x multiplyer or 149% of base stamina at 3000 cp or 29800 stamina.
As the starting values depend on how many points you have invested in stamina/magicka/health from 1-62.... its impossible to graph the actual quantity of increase (as it varies from player to player)...only the proportion can be modelled universally.
Anything else would be misleading.

There is nothing wrong with the scale of the graph. Its not logarithmic or misleading in anyway.
Its perfectly uniform in x and y axes. It makes it very easy to see what champion points create what magnitude increase.
So the relative proportions of CP or magnitude is completelet irrelevant.....other than personal preference and nit picking.
It starts from 100% with 0cp and then increase above 100% depending on the scale of the multiplyer where 1x current stamina/magicka/health is 100%.
Remove all the CP and you would be back to 100% stamina/magicka/stamina without any CP bonus multiplier.

Is this really the best argument you have ?
Cant argue with the math so attack the way its presented instead ?
Explains everything.

20000 to 29800 is a 49% increase
100 % increase is x2 multiplier.

The Axis should start at 0 if the curve has been there to show "the stamina increase per champion point"
If you made a curve for stamina only the x axis should finish at 1200. Or your curve should not be linear if you put 3000 on x Axis

I'm agree with the other your graph is not a graph it's a green line drew on a grid.

Smiteye

HxC wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

I would be more apt to agree with the sentiments of this thread on CP's if there was mathematical proof that CP's have a noteworthy impact on character performance by way of PvP and PvE. As far as "collapse of guilds", it is the life blood of MMOs, every game in the history of MMOs has had a dark era, for many it was a failure for many it was a success.

Only Attorneyatlawl has provided any type of mathematical inquiry and scientific insight, his findings show that grinding CP past a certain point is not numerically significant.
'
With that said so far it shows that skill will still supersede a mathematical advantage in Cyrodiil at this point. Which makes the hamster wheel argument relevant because if CP's truly mean nothing then there is only awaiting the next DLC, which people have already are bored with current content while people like you are trying to enjoy the game.

Before it was too damn hard to get Veteran levels, now it's much easier to gain vet levels. Now its back to every problem every MMO has ever faced, the gap between casuals and hardcore players.

So where do you fill in the gap? Gear? "CPs", Levels?

How many people are going to enjoy the storyline vs PvP/PvE mechanical functionality and blow through Mythos and storytelling and get straight to the endgame?

In my opinion, ZOS is being intelligent by taking their time fixing current issues slowly and methodically rather than rushing content to appease the squeakiest wheel on the ESOTU bus.

Another problem lies in the fact that how can they improve a game when they have to wade through a bunch of bs just to get to the folks who do not soak the forums in their tears and nerdrage and have really well written and coherent concerns and improvements. They are going to soak the "next big thing" in their tears when it fails doesn't spoil them, because they are addicted to riding the hypetrain, I with held my assessments and conclusions for years, but after Stars Wars launch, there it is.

*shrug* That is just me, I am a admittedly patient with this game, I take my time. Not rushing to the end when I know by the time I get there something new, cool, and shiny is going to come out.

I have been one of the few producing figures and not crap....

1234567

..This is stamina increase over standard as CP points increase. Magicka and Health also increase at the same rate. ALL passive/active bonuses are scaled based off magicka/stamina/health as well as spell/weapon damage. So not only do you get damage CS passive increase you also get the CS stat based increase as a double whammy.
What would you give to have a 5 pc set bonus of +15% stamina/magicka/health on top of your existing 5 pc set bonus (350 cp) ?


Now imagine you could have upto ZILCH% increase on all stats.

@TheBonesXXX gets to the actual parts that matter. The chart you show, not only has an ambiguous "100%" starting point, but then paths in a way that doesn't line up with how the system even works.

Your plot area isn't a 1:1 area. It is 886 pixels horizontally by 572 high, which distorts the gain to appear at a ratio of 54% stronger than it would otherwise. A one-to-one plot area would scale from "100%" to "200%" for the vertical axis, or in other words, "1x increase" against a "100%" of champion points you could earn on the horizontal axis, aka 3600 in the labels.

Here's what it looks like, when attempting to present facts objectively on a neutral basis after scaling and adjusting the graph plot area to usual statistical chart presentation standards:

This isn't even mentioning providing a completely unhinged "statistic" from any actual game information or context as to what it supposed to mean.



The bottom line ends up being what @TheBonesXXX got at: what do you want out of your MMO? In a game where skill is enough of a factor that great players can take out 5-10 people alone in PVP, having a progression system to help bridge the gap between work being done on the game and provide a point in doing things game-wide (once the XP is evened out across activities like PVP and PVE/dungeons/trials)... what exactly are you looking for?

How do the cool kids say it... oh right. "Wrecked". @Rune_Relic 's bias just got blown to pieces.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

lol. Wrecked ? Really....
http://asolutionaday.com/calculators-index/
People should check they actually know what they are talking about before they attempt to wreck an argument.

The stamina, magicka and health increase to stat is proportional to existing stat point bias (so varies).
So if you had 20,000 stamina you would get app. 1.49x multiplyer or 149% of base stamina at 3000 cp or 29800 stamina.
As the starting values depend on how many points you have invested in stamina/magicka/health from 1-62.... its impossible to graph the actual quantity of increase (as it varies from player to player)...only the proportion can be modelled universally.
Anything else would be misleading.

There is nothing wrong with the scale of the graph. Its not logarithmic or misleading in anyway.
Its perfectly uniform in x and y axes. It makes it very easy to see what champion points create what magnitude increase.
So the relative proportions of CP or magnitude is completelet irrelevant.....other than personal preference and nit picking.
It starts from 100% with 0cp and then increase above 100% depending on the scale of the multiplyer where 1x current stamina/magicka/health is 100%.
Remove all the CP and you would be back to 100% stamina/magicka/stamina without any CP bonus multiplier.

Is this really the best argument you have ?
Cant argue with the math so attack the way its presented instead ?
Explains everything.

20000 to 29800 is a 49% increase
100 % increase is x2 multiplier.

The Axis should start at 0 if the curve has been there to show "the stamina increase per champion point"
If you made a curve for stamina only the x axis should finish at 1200. Or you curve should not be linear if you put 3000 on x Axis

I'm agree with the other your graph is not a graph it's a green curve drew on a grid.

Yep, I love how @attorneyatlawl got moderation on his post for remarking that it was lame mildly of rune relic to call everyone else's information "crap" from @zos_ulyssesw, yet the post with a meaningless graph calling everyone else's "crap" (rune relics term for it) remains untouched. I don't know what is even being shown but a curved line in that one.

Lord Xanhorn

Volla wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

VRs are stated as a long term goal.

Let me translate that. "We are not working, planning, or even thinking on removing VR levels."

This 'long term' goal is akin to your goal of taking that Antarctica expedition, buying that Ferrari, or losing that 50 pounds. You can have that goal all you want and it may keep you warm and cozy in your bed at night, but the reality is... IT AINT HAPPENING

Then Dont Raice the *F* VR levels !! agree? that *** pisses me off the most.

I agree but just like every MMO out there, when a new xpac comes out, they raise the level cap. It makes it easier to introduce new content/gear and not have to balance it with the old content. Since these DLCs won't add what people generally expect an expansion to add, the VR levels add a very small bump to the max level to achieve the goal without adding a bunch more to the leveling to max level requirement.

Its a broke system all around but its the one they are going with so get used to it.