The Day ESO Dies

TheBonesXXX · July 2015

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

BigInGlenumbra wrote: »

I think that we can all agree that the vast majority of people do not enjoy grinding, under the definition of killing the same mobs in the same area over and over, over other parts of the game, and thus it should not rewarded more per hour played doing such grinding than questing per hour played.

Grinders deserve no sympathy here. Grinding should be very discouraged.

And this of course is separate from the issues of the Champion system such as the inherent and discouraging power gap, but grinding benefits greatly from the CP system, making things even worse.

Again, I'm from Asherons Call, I prefer grinding to quests.

I enjoy the quest line, but I'm old school.

Please, do not impede my style of play and substitute it with someone else's because it inconveniences them..

Yes... because you don't want any inconveniences for you.

If people want to quest, let them quest. If I want to grind, let me grind?

Why discourage a style of play that has been around since UO, DAoC, and Asheron's Call?

fethry8oeb17_ESO · July 2015

WoW doesn't MAKE you skip anything.
It gives you the OPTION to do so if you want to AND are prepared to pay to do so.

There's alternative way to lvl in wow, pugs with heirloom gear..-so you lose your quests and you get to lvl 90 pretty much under 20h without of actual playing hours, when you actually have to solo a bit it's lv90+ solo quests to farmville. this wasn't push a button solution but it can be done if you just afk there and join randoms and leech... and you don't have to pay for that. insta 90 is something like 50€, if you didn't get it with WoD. btw hate warmille

enough of that, i started playing again, not seriously after half year break, and i saw nothing changed
but yeah Deltia and some ppl here does have the real point where this game is going so props to them and pls JOIN ZOZ DEV team advisors. Thanks to Deltia and friends and Attorney
Ill Vote For ya

ch.ris317b14_ESO · July 2015

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

BigInGlenumbra wrote: »

I think that we can all agree that the vast majority of people do not enjoy grinding, under the definition of killing the same mobs in the same area over and over, over other parts of the game, and thus it should not rewarded more per hour played doing such grinding than questing per hour played.

Grinders deserve no sympathy here. Grinding should be very discouraged.

And this of course is separate from the issues of the Champion system such as the inherent and discouraging power gap, but grinding benefits greatly from the CP system, making things even worse.

Again, I'm from Asherons Call, I prefer grinding to quests.

I enjoy the quest line, but I'm old school.

Please, do not impede my style of play and substitute it with someone else's because it inconveniences them..

Yes... because you don't want any inconveniences for you.

If people want to quest, let them quest. If I want to grind, let me grind?

Why discourage a style of play that has been around since UO, DAoC, and Asheron's Call?

For the same reason people don't use sailboats to cross oceans anymore...

There is no point doing somehing the same way when there are better, more efficient, and MORE FUN ways of accomplishing the same task... which is to keep people playing.

Grinding IS NOT fun for the OVERWHELMING majority of gamers, and it is completely unneccesary with today's technology.

You want to grind, everquest and Korean MMOs are still going... for the rest of us living in the 21st century, its mind blowingly insane.

LillyAngel · July 2015

You people are forgetting that this is an MMO and every MMO has a level cap raise once in a while. I completely do not see the problem with that. Also, what is the problem with the Champion System exactly? It's just another ranking system that separates long time (or hard working) players from newbies. Get used to that, people that spent a lot of time playing the game "deserve" to be rewarded for their effort! Sure, i do agree that there should be a quicker way of earning them but in general i really do not see the problem here at all. Oh yeah, i only have 20CP myself!!! I just play the game and have fun no matter if someone is better or not. It's just a game people...

TheBonesXXX · July 2015

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Even the console rele

Bromburak wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Bad design cannot be long term financial success....

ESO is not a bad design it has a different design that you don't like.
Beside that ESO is not a stand still, its changing and improving.

ESO has had more epic failures in a year than blizzard has had in a decade.

Ignorance at its best.

One of these games had to completely rework its business model... the other has been going strong for a decade.... it is no secret who designed a better mmo

That is not to say ESO has no redeeming points... I enjoy the crap out of the skill and morph system... but in terms of end game, telling a story, and keeping players involved ZOS failed miserably... in no small part due to Veteran rank and Champion points AND absolute lack of post launch content.

Name an MMO after SWTOR that has not switched it's business model. Since then, the internet nomads have been riding the hype train on every MMO out there and when it doesn't "meet there expectations", they throw a temper-tantrum and jump back on the hype train, as if SWTOR was not lesson enough.

Also, do you honestly think console players would involuntarily play ESO if it was still sub based? There would be a huge loss of revenue.

Turbine figured out that free to play and a cash shop makes more money than the standard subscription fee a long time ago, back when they launched LOTRO.

WoW lost 3 million subs this quarter alone, while already having millions of players before the SWTOR era.

Not really a far comparison.

ch.ris317b14_ESO · July 2015

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Even the console rele

Bromburak wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Bad design cannot be long term financial success....

ESO is not a bad design it has a different design that you don't like.
Beside that ESO is not a stand still, its changing and improving.

ESO has had more epic failures in a year than blizzard has had in a decade.

Ignorance at its best.

One of these games had to completely rework its business model... the other has been going strong for a decade.... it is no secret who designed a better mmo

That is not to say ESO has no redeeming points... I enjoy the crap out of the skill and morph system... but in terms of end game, telling a story, and keeping players involved ZOS failed miserably... in no small part due to Veteran rank and Champion points AND absolute lack of post launch content.

Name an MMO after SWTOR that has not switched it's business model. Since then, the internet nomads have been riding the hype train on every MMO out there and when it doesn't "meet there expectations", they throw a temper-tantrum and jump back on the hype train, as if SWTOR was not lesson enough.

Also, do you honestly think console players would involuntarily play ESO if it was still sub based? There would be a huge loss of revenue.

Turbine figured out that free to play and a cash shop makes more money than the standard subscription fee a long time ago, back when they launched LOTRO.

WoW lost 3 million subs this quarter alone, while already having millions of players before the SWTOR era.

Not really a far comparison.

EVE online, Final Fantasy 14

People are paying subs for DCUO and Final fantasy 14 on consoles.

Again... its about execution, Blizzard, CCP, and Whoever runs FF14 executed... ESO did not

Also, wow loses more players than even BOUGHT ESO... and the game still is going strong on subs... that tells you a lot right there.

..... not to mention, trying to make excuses for a dramatic shift in business model because they made an equally bad and obviously terrible business decision, is not coherent. Thats like saying a Car is well designed when it has to be pulled from production because it only has a 2 gallon gas tank and people keep returning it due to lack of practical use.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · July 2015

Bromburak wrote: »

Why the heck are you here, you are the one who said WoW has more subscribers and the better design.
You are implausible because you talk like an investor and not like a gamer.

Have a good one.

I'm here because through Skyrim (2nd best game I have played) I fell in love with the depth and complexity of the Elder Scroll world.

I want ESO to be even just half as good as its potential, because then it would be, without question IMO, the very best MMORPG out there.

But Zeni have made a lot of silly mistakes, mistakes that they had no need to make because 10 years of other MMORPG companies have already made them and Zeni only had to learn from those mistakes; rather than make the same mistakes all over again - which seems to be Zeni's prefered option.

And it is going to take time to fix those mistakes.

Time Zeni won't have unless they can keep their investors on board.

If the Market Leading AAA MMORPG has - for example - an Auction House then Zeni's reasons for not having one have to be damn good AND what they put in in place of an AH must offer the player at least as much functionality as the Market Leader's AH system.

Being different only works if being different is at least as good, if not better than the rest.

ESO could be that "better" but not, IMO, if Zeni keep on down the route they have travelled so far.

Because the investors will not give them the backing to have enough time to put things right.

And so we have the Crown Store.

Despite what some people may think I am not here because I hate the game; there's dozens of games out there I do hate and I never, ever, ever go to their forums to make comments.

All The Best

Armitas · July 2015

I personally like a grind, not a traditional korean grind like lineage, but a diablo type grind. Turn your headphones on, play some youtube shows and relax for a while, then play with your friends when they finally get on. But my playstyle only represents a portion of the player base.

The gamer market in Korea is shifting though. There are starting to be a lot more casual players in the Korean market. In a question an answer session from a developer for the Korean MMO "black desert" they said the following.

Q. The current version of Black Desert is completely different from the one we experienced during CBT1, what caused you to change the game so much?

A. The tendency of users changed a lot in the past couple of years, and the changes are lot more certain with players exposed to mobile environment. There are a lot of casual lite gamers in Korean market. We are servicing our game based on our players’ demands.

Dang mobile games. I don't know where the American market is right now.

soyhodon · July 2015

Its almost to late Deltai, however the next 6 months or so will determine if ESO goes the way of SWG, SToR or any other free to play (Buy to play) game released in the last 3 years. Or if done right, will stay relevant for the next 5 years. I subscribed till exp potions arrived in game and am just about at my limit with ZoS. Be Safe all. Btw Deltia I enjoyed your vids and advice for this game!!

ch.ris317b14_ESO · July 2015

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

Why the heck are you here, you are the one who said WoW has more subscribers and the better design.
You are implausible because you talk like an investor and not like a gamer.

Have a good one.

I'm here because through Skyrim (2nd best game I have played) I fell in love with the depth and complexity of the Elder Scroll world.

I want ESO to be even just half as good as its potential, because then it would be, without question IMO, the very best MMORPG out there.

But Zeni have made a lot of silly mistakes, mistakes that they had no need to make because 10 years of other MMORPG companies have already made them and Zeni only had to learn from those mistakes; rather than make the same mistakes all over again - which seems to be Zeni's prefered option.

And it is going to take time to fix those mistakes.

Time Zeni won't have unless they can keep their investors on board.

If the Market Leading AAA MMORPG has - for example - an Auction House then Zeni's reasons for not having one have to be damn good AND what they put in in place of an AH must offer the player at least as much functionality as the Market Leader's AH system.

Being different only works if being different is at least as good, if not better than the rest.

ESO could be that "better" but not, IMO, if Zeni keep on down the route they have travelled so far.

Because the investors will not give them the backing to have enough time to put things right.

And so we have the Crown Store.

Despite what some people may think I am not here because I hate the game; there's dozens of games out there I do hate and I never, ever, ever go to their forums to make comments.

All The Best

Precisely... we are B&Ming BECAUSE we love the game, the vision, and the concept.... but are apalled at the sloppy execution and unforced errors

There is SO MUCH UNTAPPED POTENTIAL HERE... this game SHOULD have been as groundbreaking and evolutionary as WoW was when it came out. If the combat was a little more polished, and the morph system expanded on... and if they hadn't implemented forced classes.... if they had basic mmo functions like Auction houses, in game damage meters and minimaps, etc....

jkemmery · July 2015

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

1) Yes it does. A game with more players is extremely likely to be more financially successful; because the ROCI/Capita value to break-even is a lot lower. Its basic economics.

No it doesn't make a game any better because Innovation is something else than revenue.

Please do tell me what ESO has that is in any way innovative?

Then further demonstrate that whatever that is has been implemented with success.

Bromburak wrote: »

2) The last time I returned to WoW (just after WoD) I started a brand new toon, I didn't feel in anyway penalised for being a beginner.

You a funny guy, of course you didn't feel penalised because you like the "instant endgame button" mechanics.

WoW makes you skip every low content and character progression from beginning until endgame.
Thats not innovative, thats a pretty bad game design for an MMO and exactly thats what the discussion was about.

Please do feel free to continue to assume things about me, and get them woefully wrong.

But hey, we all know what happens when you assume things, right?

WoW doesn't MAKE you skip anything.
It gives you the OPTION to do so if you want to AND are prepared to pay to do so.

Now if someone designs a coffee mug with a hole in the bottom I can pretty much guarantee that not many people will use it, those that do that will almost certainly use it once, discover it doesn't work and try a design that does work.

That would mean that the design with the most users is the better design, because people tend not to use badly designed things.

Which game has the most players and most subscribers?

Now, please do tell me how the one with the lower number of players and subscribers is the "better designed" game.

Because I'll bet last week's wages that when the corporate bean-counters come to decide what is "better" they'll be looking at "money in the bank" and not at the "we wan't to be different, even if that means things don't work" design ethos of the game.

And my guess is those bean-counters are starting to win, hence B2P, hence the Crown Store, hence the departure of people who seem to no longer be in favour, or in tune with the corporate ethos the bean-counters are running with.

I'd have loved for ZOS to have pulled off all the game innovations in ESO that they have tried for - but they haven't. In fact my sig sums up how "well" they have done.

Innovation and being different are great things; but only if they deliver at least as good a service as that which they are trying to be different from.

Zeni don't seem to have managed that, at least so far.

So their innovation has, in effect, failed.

But please do continue making assumptions about me; it makes me laugh, as do your opinions.

All The Best

Well, I can't speak for others, but for me, I quit playing WOW after about 2 weeks because I found it to be repetitive, cartoonish and annoying. After a year, I'm still playing ESO, because it is none of those things for me. Personally I'm glad ZOS didn't give us a WOW clone in the world of Elder Scrolls.

I would say that for me, as a player, their innovation has, in effect, succeeded, and succeeded greatly. I continue to play and spend money on their product.

King Bozo · July 2015

Wow 36 pages on this topic. Did I miss something? Let me know when they stop writing the lore and take the servers down. That is when eso dies.

TheBonesXXX · July 2015

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

For the same reason people don't use sailboats to cross oceans anymore...

There is no point doing somehing the same way when there are better, more efficient, and MORE FUN ways of accomplishing the same task... which is to keep people playing.

Grinding IS NOT fun for the OVERWHELMING majority of gamers, and it is completely unneccesary with today's technology.

You want to grind, everquest and Korean MMOs are still going... for the rest of us living in the 21st century, its mind blowingly insane.

I've stated before, I enjoy the story-line, played few it a couple of times. I also enjoy the relaxation that grinding brings me.

If an two avid outdoorsmen prefer firearms vs atlatl and both achieve the same goal, should we tell the guy using the atlatl that the technologies have improved and that he should not be allowed to use the atlatl? The result is the same, food on the table.

I'm sure the Aborigines would greatly appreciate being told that technology is different and they are no longer allowed to keep their culture, they absolutely should use computers, becoming vegans, and grow hipster beards.

Kambo · July 2015

RazzPitazz wrote: »

LukeArayo wrote: »

You make some great points, ironically however ESO is still doing better work with content than WoW is right now.
Even though WoW has released content it has been very bad, i mean WoD is already over.
ZOS is doing better than the guys at Blizzard are with WoW atm.

Considering that ZOS has literally released no content aside from crown store items and their supposed in game competition, I'm going to say this statement is inaccurate.

My point was that ZOS hasn't produced content because they are trying to make it the best they can.
WoD's content was literally a few months after one another and noone liked the new WoD content because Blizzard did not listen to what the players would have liked.

So point is ZOS is making their content as best they can, therefore it takes longer.
Blizzard has made almost nothing but bad calls during the entirety of WoD because they did not listen to what players wanted, and they rushed content.

Kambo · July 2015

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

LukeArayo wrote: »

ZOS is doing better than the guys at Blizzard are with WoW atm.

Really?

Which as the most Subs?

Which has the most players?

ZOS > Blizzard?

ROFLMFAO-Copter

All The Best

They may have more subs than ZOS but Blizzard is rushing content, it is literally falling apart over there.
They lost 3 million subs in 3 months because those 3 million did not like the content Blizzard was making for WoW.

Kambo · July 2015

k2blader wrote: »

LukeArayo wrote: »

You make some great points, ironically however ESO is still doing better work with content than WoW is right now.
Even though WoW has released content it has been very bad, i mean WoD is already over.
ZOS is doing better than the guys at Blizzard are with WoW atm.

I wonder which game is bringing in better profit. I don't think it's this one.

[edit]
And I dunno what you mean about new content. I haven't seen new content-- just content taken away. And a lot of unfixed bugs.

My point is as i stated ZOS isn't rushing their content therefore it takes longer to make.

ch.ris317b14_ESO · July 2015

LukeArayo wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

LukeArayo wrote: »

You make some great points, ironically however ESO is still doing better work with content than WoW is right now.
Even though WoW has released content it has been very bad, i mean WoD is already over.
ZOS is doing better than the guys at Blizzard are with WoW atm.

I wonder which game is bringing in better profit. I don't think it's this one.

[edit]
And I dunno what you mean about new content. I haven't seen new content-- just content taken away. And a lot of unfixed bugs.

My point is as i stated ZOS isn't rushing their content therefore it takes longer to make.

If you think voice only chat on a console release that was delayed a full year is 'high quality'... I got some oceanfront property to sell you on mars.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · July 2015

I have nothing against people who wish to grind. If you choose to grind to level up quickly, it is your choice. Just as those who wish to play casual, and don't give a (beep) about this issue. Admittedly, I grind through 80% of the content to V14 and to me that is enough. Specifically the issue is there is not enough content to get anywhere near the desirable CP in the game. V1-V14 gets me around 60-70 CP. If there was enough content to get to even 600 CP, approved! Not remotely close even with the current proposed changes to quest XP, so your forced to do one of two things:

1) Create a ton of alts and level to v14 over and over again
or
2) Grind mobs in particular areas until you get the desired # of CPs.

Just to get 600 CP, the gameplay is ~90% Grind while only ~10% Content when you do ALL the content to V14. For a game studio that spent so much time on content, this is confusing.

I am interested to see what comes out of ZoS's discussion...

MmmmTofu · July 2015

I was playing ESO since the beta weekends, left before 1.3 due to personal issues, just came back for more.

am a V12 LA sorc Captain Grade 1, came back with 58CP the game gave to me. Seeing ppl saying their 300CP is still lacking in PVP really have me concerned...

Now i m not even sure how to level to V14.. I have cleared all the quests in every region when grinding to V12, and I really dont want to grind

Kambo · July 2015

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

LukeArayo wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

LukeArayo wrote: »

You make some great points, ironically however ESO is still doing better work with content than WoW is right now.
Even though WoW has released content it has been very bad, i mean WoD is already over.
ZOS is doing better than the guys at Blizzard are with WoW atm.

I wonder which game is bringing in better profit. I don't think it's this one.

[edit]
And I dunno what you mean about new content. I haven't seen new content-- just content taken away. And a lot of unfixed bugs.

My point is as i stated ZOS isn't rushing their content therefore it takes longer to make.

If you think voice only chat on a console release that was delayed a full year is 'high quality'... I got some oceanfront property to sell you on mars.

Sounds like a delightful place to live, quiet...

MisterBigglesworth · July 2015

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

grinding is completely antithetical to the spirit of Elder Scrolls.

QFT! My new signature! Thank you!

Vizier · July 2015

Armitas wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

If the notion is true that the CP power gap is not that significant then it will have to change it's appearance to change peoples perception. The appearance of the champion system reaches everyone, the detailed truth of it will only reach a few.

...thinking back, It is unfortunate that they inflated our stats to make the CP points appear more significant, as that is a major portion of the perception real or imaginary.

You mention the inflating of stats to make CP bonuses seem more significant, however this would only be true if the CP bonuses were flat values like "adds 200 weapon damage."

This is not the case however. All of the CP bonuses to primary stats are PERCENTAGE based, thus rendering the inflating of stats completely irrelevant. I don't care if you add 50 zeroes after my weapon damage, 25% is 25%.
25% more damage from physical/magic attacks.

25% more damage from weapons.

25% more critical damage.

25% stronger shields.

25% more resistant to elemental damage.

25% more resistant to poison/magic damage.

25% cheaper roll/break free.

25% more magic/stamina regen.

25% cheaper casting of magicka/stamina abilities.

etc.

Now, go up against that 24/7 grinder and tell me the power gap is just a misperception.

I was paraphrasing ZOS on that. They have stated that this was why they inflated the stats. They tested the CP system at
I don't think we need mathematics to agree with that conclusion either. As you say "25% more" 'everything', inside a pvp role that makes use of everything is going to be significant right toward the very end of the champion system.

I'd venture that most players are still below 300 points and a very few like 1% have up to 700ish. So this is a total red herring.

As soon as someone gets to Veteran rank they start closing the gap pretty quickly. We're talking about a 10-15% gap vs anyone that's been playing awhile and That's only if someone they are fighting as a passive that is maxed out which at this point is unlikely. So in truth the gap right now between long time players and newer players just isn't that significant, barring a few exceptions. So ya, this "gap" you're speaking of is a total misperception.

Ixtyr · July 2015

I don't believe I've commented in this thread yet - but I do want to voice my personal opinion on this entire matter, so I'll do so below.

Note: I've already stated most of this in the most recent episode of TESO Nation (Ep25) - I'm just going to put it in written form, and elaborate a bit since I wasn't able to completely cover everything in the show.

Here goes.

---

PROBLEM

---

To me, the biggest problem with this game is not the Champion System. Far from it, I actually feel that the CP system is the right way for ZOS to go, but it does need some adjustments. The true problem is the existence of the Veteran Ranks. Here's why.

Current ESO Progression:

Levels 1-50: Vertical Progression
Veteran Ranks 1-14: Vertical Progression
Gear Progression
Champion System: Semi-Vertical Progression

A. In the current iteration of the game, we have a traditional vertical progression from Levels 1-50. This moves at a generally-acceptable pace, and I have few complaints.

B. After "beating" the main storyline, and thereby beating the main Vertical Progression in the game, most would expect to reach "end-game" - where the maximum level is capped, and you now have access (more or less) to all content in the game. Unfortunately, that is not the case, because we are thrust into a secondary, more time-consuming Vertical Progression in the Veteran Ranks.

One of the greatest selling points for ESO is the sheer volume of content available for you to play. Being able to tell people that there is anywhere from 100-150 hours of gameplay for each of the three major factions, plus Craglorn, plus Cyrodiil, plus the Veteran Dungeons and Trials, is fantastic, especially since you can actually do ALL of that content on one character with no need to reroll an "alt" - it's been one of the major reasons why so many of my friends have started playing ESO.

However, this apparent "blessing" becomes a bit of a curse when you encounter VRs. For most players who want to actually play through the content as intended, at their own pace, without plowing through and skipping story, quest text, zones, etc., it can take upwards of over 300+ more hours AFTER reaching "endgame" to truly be able to actually access "endgame" - where you're at the maximum level, you are no longer level-gated for getting good gear, your stats are actually on par (at the base level) with other players, and you can begin to actually work on 1) the gear progression (details below) and 2) being able to play the existing group content in the game as intended with your friends. That's a ridiculous hurdle. Your only other option? Skip the story, and go spend a week mindlessly grinding giant packs of mobs to farm up enough experience to get to VR14 - and then go back and do all of the content the way you actually wanted to do it, as intended, at your own pace.

Neither of those options are particularly good ones. One leads to a downright unenjoyable gameplay experience, and the other leaves you on the outside looking-in at your buddies, who are at endgame, whom you really want to be able to play the game with.

C. Once you reach the maximum level, currently "VR14", you can finally begin to truly work on a gear progression for your character. Determine your build and playstyle, craft/obtain various sets, play around with your build, and settle in on what you enjoy, and invest the time and/or gold into getting the best possible gear for your character.

At this point in time, the gear progression in ESO is not that bad. It does have issues, though, and here's a couple of them:
1) It feels awfully off-putting that many of the cool gear sets in this game do not scale to the maximum level. How many Magicka users out there are currently looking at/utilizing the "of the Sun" pieces, scaled at VR12? A lot, because for many builds, it is one of the "Best in Slot" sets to wear. I'm at VR14 - it just feels sour that some of the best gear in the game doesn't even scale to my level. I'm fine with it being from a previous tier - just make it actually my level. Being in all VR14 gear, minus a few VR12 pieces, just drives me (and a number of players) mad when they're looking at their character sheets. It just doesn't feel good.
2) ZOS is working hard to implement dozens of new, interesting gear sets to the game. Raising the VR cap, though, can (and eventually will, even for "of the Sun" pieces and some others) render a lot of those interesting, fun sets useless at end-game. Why continue to create new gear to mix up the meta and give players options, only to eliminate their usefulness by raising the level cap, but not allow the gear to grow with it. Sure, crafted sets will always be craftable for the highest level, presumably, but dropped gear will not. Raising the cap actually limits options - not to mention the fact that if ZOS raises the level cap every DLC pack as they seemingly now plan to, the gear turnover is going to be remarkable...and at the ridiculous cost that much of the gear in this game requires, that fact just hurts the accessibility of this game.

D. The Champion System. Oh, boy. In my opinion, this is the right way to go for ZOS and ESO - but it has its problems, most of which have already been stated.

First, there are some balance/number issues. A couple of the passives in this supposedly "horizontal" system are RIDICULOUSLY vertical - like the fact that absolutely no one can actually begin to seriously develop or play around with a build until they hit 90 CPs, and unlock the 30-point "increase weapon or spell critical rating by 12%) passive under The Mage tree. New players basically need to farm up 90 CPs before they can begin to compete with their builds at endgame. That takes quite a decent length of time, and isn't rewarding. It's restrictive.

Then there are some other passives in the Champion System constellations that feel super horizontal, but still rewarding - like the 120-point passive under The Tower, which removes the Stamina costs for your mounts. Clearly, some of these passives need some reworking, be it via readjusting some numbers or completely replacing a few passives.

That, and/or one other major problem needs to be addressed, as Deltia so eloquently stated in the OP.

I get that the Champion System needs to reward and entice players into playing the game. No one should be discounting that. However, it should never do so in a manner that results in the game's entire metagame to become something OTHER than playing the content of the game. As it stands, because the CP system has no cap (be it a hard cap or seasonal), the single, best way to empower, progress and improve your character in ESO is through grinding experience. Your character will become better and stronger, at a significantly faster rate, by walking into a Public Delve in Cyrodiil and spamming AoE abilities mindlessly, farming mobs for hours and hours at a time. It's not through doing PvP. It's not through Questing. It's not through running Pledges. It's not through completing and progressing through Trials. No, it's by sitting in Serpent Hollow Cave and killing a bunch of bears.

That's horrific, unrewarding, unenjoyable, and downright disgusting gameplay, and terrible design.

Furthermore, the capability of Experience Potions working to raise the rate at which you gain Champion Points only further exacerbates this issue - it rewards grinding. And so will the upcoming change that doubles experience from Public Dungeons. Those things that are intended to act as a catch-up mechanic will only widen the gap between new players and the people who have the time to mindlessly grind experience.

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A COMPARISON

---

Before I get into this comparison, I'll preface it by saying it is by no means a 100% direct parallel. Please do not take it out of the context I am expressing it in - it's a comparison about accessibility, not necessarily the specific, exact mechanics or design choices between the two games. I feel that it summarizes my point fairly well.

I also want to be clear that my intent is not to bash another game, nor another company, as that is against the rules of this forum. I've intentionally redacted the name of the studio and game in question - though I believe there is enough context that readers will know what game I am talking about.

Here goes.

Shortly after the launch of The Elder Scrolls Online, another major market, AAA MMO was released to the public: [REDACTED]. It was designed for an audience that supposedly had wanted difficult, challenging, large-group content in both PvE and PvP (primarily PvE).

That game flopped horrifically, to the point that it is going Free to Play later this summer. Unfortunately, the game is in a much worse situation than ESO has ever been in - and many doubt whether it will ever be able to recover.

[REDACTED] did not fail because of a lack of story content.
[REDACTED] did not fail because of poor gameplay experience.
[REDACTED] did not fail because of bad combat.
[REDACTED] did not fail because of poor group-content design.
[REDACTED] did not fail because of server performance or lag issues.

[REDACTED] failed because of extreme, unnecessary limitations on accessibility.

In [REDACTED], players faced a simple, Level 1-50 vertical progression. They were then met by a 12-part Attunement process, which was a 100% linear, vertical progression that gated any and all characters from being able to participate in any end-game raiding content - which was what the vast majority of the playerbase had wanted to spend their time doing.

In said Attunement process, characters had to cycle between each of the twelve steps, in order, by completing tasks such as open-world raids to kill massive Zone Bosses, complete various reputation grinds to raise the character's standing with a variety of factions, and finally, complete a variety of remarkably challenging hard-mode, "Veteran" dungeon speed-runs.

Each step of the process was an exclusive step - you could not gain credit for killing a Zone Boss required for Step 8 when you were on Step 3, and you couldn't begin to work on grinding the reputation for Step 6 before you were actually ON Step 6, etc., etc. All told, this entire process took no less than an average of 3-weeks of continuous, regular gameplay - and it often took multiple months if you lacked enough time to do it. Additionally, your friends who were on different steps than you still had to complete all of their steps, in order, and due to some of the artificial time-gating, it left many individuals out in the cold because players were all on different steps of the process.

Players wanted to play the end-game content. Once they reached the point where they were able to raid, many of them thoroughly enjoyed the experience. However, it took players, and their friends, an absolutely ridiculous amount of time to ever be able to actually become ELIGIBLE to participate in that content - despite the fact that, upon reaching Level 50, they had presumably "beaten" the big "time-sink" progression and reached end-game.

In The Elder Scrolls Online, Veteran Ranks act as that unnecessary, artificial time-gating mechanism that prevents players from actually playing the game and enjoying it as it was originally designed and intended. After playing the game for 100+ hours, players reach Level 50 - for all intents and purposes, what should be "endgame" and allow them to begin actually playing content with friends, working on the gear and Champion progression, and going through all of the other 300+ available hours of story and zone content that exists in the game, at a pace that they choose to set and via which they can enjoy themselves.

Instead, they are met by the wall that is the Veteran Rank system - a Vertical Progression that exists on top of a Vertical Progression, in addition to its supposed-replacement "Semi-Vertical" Progression, along with the game's Gear Progression.

As one of my dear friends put it, "Progression Inception".

These Veteran Ranks are an unnecessary, unrewarding time-gate. Instead of your character being able to play with your friends at end-game, you are forced to embark on the journey through (potentially, if you want to listen to the great voiceover work, read quest text, and pay attention to the story, as most players will want to at least SOMEWHAT do on their first play-through) 300 or more hours of content, encompassing two entire factions' worth of storyline, plus Craglorn, in order to reach VR14 and be able to actually feel comfortable working on your new build, obtaining good gear, spending time and gold on your character, and actually join your friends in participation in Trials and most Veteran Dungeons.

(Please note that I'm speaking about the ability to play that content where all participants are on the same level - a VR14 character playing with a friend in a Veteran Dungeon scaled to Veteran Rank 3 is no more rewarding for all parties involved than it would be for a VR14 to walk into the Daggerfall Covenant's Glenumbra zone and "help" their Level 8 friend Quest - they ruin the difficulty level. That's no different than a VR3 being carried through a VR12 dungeon either - it's not rewarding to all participants.)

Oh, and I was just talking about the problems with balance and accessibility in PvE with Veteran Ranks. Don't even get me started on the ridiculous issues with PvP. The difference between a geared VR14 and an ungeared VR14 is significant - let alone the fact that I, as someone with only somewhat-above-average gear on my VR14 Nightblade, am capable of 1-and-2-shotting most players that are under VR10. Even with ZOS slapping some Band-Aids on the situation with the increase to the Cyrodiil PvP Buff/Debuff (that will decrease damage and healing by 50%), that won't eliminate the ridiculous gap between players who are at "end-game". The playing field is not level - something that the Champion System's current issues only makes worse.

Players have been leaving ESO over the past year, not because they don't want to play the game, but rather because they aren't able to enjoy it. One of the biggest complaints that I hear every day from guildmates (and former guildmates, as they have come and gone), friends, and community members that I've been speaking to over the past year has been the fact that there is just too much of a wall for them to get past to be able to begin enjoying the game. The culprit? Almost entirely the Veteran Rank system. No one complains about Levels 1-50. And the complaints about the Champion System, while they have merit, are something that can be remedied through various means (see "SOLUTION" section below). The Veteran Rank system drastically cripples the accessibility of this game for new and returning players - not just literally, but also psychologically - and that's a problem that will not go away over time, but will rather get worse if Zenimax continues down this path.

---

SOLUTION

---

The solution to these problems is complicated, no doubt about that. It will also require significant development time and resources, as it requires the team from ZOS to take a look at reworking a minimum of 2/3 of the entire game (between zones, balancing, crafting, gear, etc.).

The following contains a few of my personal suggestions/endorsements of suggestions to help solve the problems that currently face this game.

A. Remove the Veteran Rank System.

Set the level cap to Level 50. Rebalance player statistics to adjust for the deflation in level cap. Adjust the scaling of crafting, and either a) allow multiple raw materials to exist for higher-end tiers of gear, or b) rebalance the levels of said crafting materials (Jute can work from 1-8 instead of 1-14, etc). Rebalance all Cadwell's Silver & Gold zones to Level 50, and allow players to go through that content at their own pace without it being a 100% requirement to level through VRs. Rebalance all instances and dropped VR gear sets to Level 50, so they don't become completely outdated for any reason other than newer gear sets mixing up the meta for certain builds.

This would help to basically eliminate the unnecessary time-gates that are placed on players upon completion of their faction's storyline. You hit Level 50, you're now eligible for a more balanced PvP experience, all end-game Trials and Veteran Dungeons with people all on a relatively equal playing field, and to go through all of the questing in Cadwell's Silver and Gold at your own pace, comfortably, without needing to resort to either skipping content and plowing through it quickly or sitting in a delve grinding experience for hours on end.

B. Readjust the Champion System, and add a seasonal/hard cap on the maximum available Champion Points.

ZOS may need to take a look at a few of the passives that exist in the Champion System, but they should test how the balance of the game works without VRs first. Keep in mind that the Champion System was not designed to supplement the Veteran Rank system, it was designed to replace it. The two were never designed to coexist for any extended period of time, and that's where most of the issues are coming - maxed VR characters with large CP pools are even MORE ridiculously overpowered compared to lower VRs. If the VR system is removed, many of the balance issues in the CP system (like the 12% critical rating passive under The Mage) would be less problematic, and would in fact probably be a great system to continue to progress your character without requiring undue Level Cap increases or ridiculous grind-fests.

Without Veteran Ranks, players who continue to play the game regularly at Level 50 would be able to watch their character gain some additional power and utility over time through the Champion System. At that point, the only problem left to address is the possibility of letting the disparage between players with varying amounts of CPs get out of hand. Parfax's suggestion in Deltia's OP would address this problem rather nicely.

If ZOS were to place a hard-cap on Champion Points at, say, 500, then players would be in a much better situation. They can either sit down for a short period of time and grind them all out at once (for the ridiculous, hard-core group that will always find a way to grind something regardless of what you do to prevent it), or they can gradually work their way up to that 500 CP mark. Then, as each new DLC/zone/new content is released (presumably every 3-6 months or so), raise the total cap by, say, 100.

On top of that, introduce a better catch-up mechanic that allows the first 300 CPs to come at a much faster rate (50%, 100%, maybe 200% faster) than the later points. This would allow newer players to get a respectable quantity of CPs without ridiculous effort, and then they could use Potions or Scrolls to get the next 200 CPs.

Furthermore, I would suggest that the newly unlocked CPs that are added to the total available pool each DLC would not be eligible for Experience Potions - but that's just my preference. Probably not all that necessary, nor probable, but it would treat the items as more of "catch-up mechanics" as I really would prefer they be.

Finally, over time, as the CP pool grows much, much larger (say, 1000, or 1500, or 2500+ available points), ZOS could increase the number of CPs that are gained at a faster rate, beyond the first 300. When CPs get to 2,000, the first 500 or 750 points might come faster - or they could set it into tiers, or make everything aside from the most recent "season"/DLC come at that accelerated rate. Again, a variety of ways this could be done - another option would be to see how much the diminishing returns play a factor at those insanely high CP pool values (accelerating the first 500 may be unnecessary if the 1,500th point only adds a couple percent's worth of growth/progression).

Oh - and what about all of those people who have already grinded up to 800-1,000+ CPs, when this cap of 500 comes into effect? Drop them down to 500, like everyone else - but save their experience data. If you have 749 CPs, you keep your credit for 749 CPs, and as each DLC is released, you're just automatically bumped it to the maximum pool of 600, then 700, and then when the pool hits 800, you start at that 749 figure. Nobody gets too overly butt-hurt.

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TL;DR

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There is none. Just read it. If you don't, well, that's your choice, and I fully respect that, as I know it's a long post. But I've been typing this for the past three hours after thinking about it for a full week (plus time spent before Eric's announcement on ESO Live), and this is about as clear and succinct (yes, succinct) as I can get about it.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

I enjoy grinding more than I enjoy questing as an adult with ADHD, I like to have my zombie time and not think about anything. For those of you who are "superior" to the idea, some of us enjoy it.

+1 For Deltia's Concern
+1 For Attorney's Math
+1 To the guy who brought up the third tier of morphs

Might I add let us laterally advance end game special named weapons.. That itself would be an amazing project and undertaking, lots of named gear in the world and it's not able to be upgraded or used as effectively as sets and Master Weapons.

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

@Enraged_Tiki_Torch when quest grinding what quest takes 20 minutes? honest quesion. Mostly recently I did the first 30 quests in vr stormhaven at 5:03 minute breakdown, I've never run into an actual 20 minute quest when quest grinding. (still trying for the 4:30 mark that was said way back in the day by ZoS). All enlightened plus xp scroll and in 2 hours 6 cp's killing some mobs along the way. If this bumps up to 12 it'll make a difference.

Does further xp balancing need to happen sure.

I have to agree. Another important point that is typically overlooked is that you should, and will be, killing a lot of mobs as you move through questing areas completing those quests. I can't think of any single quest that would normally take 20 minutes as you plow through the zones if trying to quest grind. Simply calling out the XP you earn on a turn-in sidesteps the issue of XP/hour, which is the right yardstick for that discussion, as you mentioned.

Beefing up the base quest XP (that then gets raised by XP potions, the subscription bonus (if subscribed), etc.) adds a decent raise in your XP/hour. Most games, however, don't reach the best XP when questing by dodging agro and killing the minimum amount of mobs in your path; generally, you're best off killing as many as humanly possible while minimizing the extra travel distance and speed impact on your route as a whole.

For example, stopping entirely to go hunt one tiger hiding under a tree 20 feet away... not smart. Nuking a tiger 5 feet ahead of you as you approach, without even needing to turn off the way you were going and not even stopping other than to quickly grab the loot off of it... is smart. .

Rosveen wrote: »

I voted for him. I don't need to agree with everything he says to recognize his contributions to the community. *shrugs*

Games have to be enjoyable first and foremost. To survive and thrive, an MMO needs to be fun for existing players and accessible to new players. It isn't fun when time becomes more important than skill - unless hardcore grinders are your target audience, but I doubt this is what ZOS intended. It isn't accessible when a new player can't catch up in any reasonable amount of time. These are long-term problems ZOS needs to consider and prevent. It's good that we're talking about them.

Thank you, and especially moreso for understanding that just because people don't have the same point of view, their thoughts aren't automatically invalidated. Even when I don't agree with what someone's saying... I put forth an effort to try to at least get where they're coming from. Regardless if I still completely disagree at that point, I've learned something in doing so.

Now, I do absolutely, however, agree with you on the accessibility front. I hate doing this, but it would basically just be paraphrasing myself, not to just quote it. This isn't a difficult problem to address, in my opinion, and is being extremely overcomplicated in most of the discussions I've been reading on the forums here, and elsewhere. Here's how I think it breaks down, and how they can fairly keep it in check... numbers, of course, can always be tweaked .

Attorneyatlawl wrote:

Wow has lockout timers. ESO has RNG (random drop chances). Both result in the same statistical loot distribution, over time, and are different ways of doing the same thing but with less player annoyance by being strictly forbidden to play that content during a lockout.

Wow has new gear that immediately makes everything else you've ever done in the game or obtained for equipment obsolete and essentially worthless. ESO has beyond-extremely minor power increases on gear, with the changes providing more horizontal (different, but not numerically stronger) progression availability through new set bonus types, skills, and other facets.

Wow immediately sets everyone back to square one. It then requires everyone to start back up from scratch, repeating the same thing as the prior time period where top-end progression players speed through and gain their old power gap back in short order, while less competitive players are left in the dust and unable to in any way, shape, or form, including even being carried and playing a ludicrous amount of time per day, catch up if they didn't do it from the start. ESO provides such a small amount of extra raw power on the equipment that it could be considered zero statistically (see the math below).

The champion system is a big can of worms. Suffice to say, the first 300-400 points are important. The next couple of hundred will continue to gain moderately for many builds. Beyond that, you see a significant nosedive in how much they amplify your actual performance, both due to inherent relative diminishment and what parts of your combat they affect. I'll be doing a detailed post regarding this soon, but by and large, a simple "The first X number of champion points require less XP" that is raised every so often with patches over time.

For now we could have them say, "The first 120 champion points take less XP to earn" and then six months from now, "The first 225 champion points take less XP to earn" and so on, which would basically take care of the issue of power gaps when combined with the current enlightenment system that penalizes you after earning your first champion point in any given 24-hour period. Yes, the numbers are shiny and big. No, they don't make as giant a gap as it intuitively looks, when you boil it down to the facts after a moderate initial champion rank as described above. Wow's system is by far worse if you are not a hardcore player, for allowing you to even attempt to "keep up with the Joneses". Doing this, quicker players get to stay ahead for their efforts, but it curbs how extreme the differences in raw character power can ever reach.

Look I just want to know if you actually have some sort of insight or access that we don't. I thought that was the whole point. Your opinion is meaningless to me. I want answers from the devs.

And your opinion is probably meaningless to anyone who reads this ^^

Being mean to Miss Bizz is unacceptable. Go find a different game to play if this one is making you so angry.

Nobody was being mean. I asked a direct question. Why raise the cap is they are removing the vet ranks. It's absolutely idiotic. And you don't get to tell me what I can use my money for even if it's to pay for something that makes me angry. Sorry if the community ambassadors are useless. It wasn't my hairbrain idea to have them.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

...

Just a couple observations.

That chart, while on the surface appearing to make a legitimate argument for diminishing returns, fails to account for the fact that those 9 skills I mentioned are really the only ones that matter in terms of raw power and survivability. They are the ones everyone goes for. Everything else is more or less "fluff."

It also fails to account for passives which are unlocked at 75+ in each constellation, many of which are VERY powerful. Having multiple of these WILL make a huge difference. These "core" bonuses are spread out across all three trees, thus enabling multiple top-level bonuses at relatively low CP levels (400+).

All of this is really a moot point however, as it is arguing semantics over when the problem will REALLY be a problem. Once people have 500+ points they can max out most of the core abilities and hit whatever "soft cap" of diminishing returns feels comfortable in the rest.

As others have pointed out (too tired to dig up the numbers), the bulk of the CP power is achieved by around 600-800 CP.

Even though we have maniac 24/7 grinders (and people DO pay friends to play their accounts while they sleep/work), the average player with 2-3 hours a day to invest won't hit that level until some time NEXT YEAR.

I believe that is an unacceptable time to wait for any semblance of a balanced PVP experience and by then, we likely WILL see grinders with 3600 CP. Certainly with the 900 required to fully cap at 100/100 (25%) all of the core boosts I posted.

The need for season caps and Enlightenment boosts is real.

Of course the people desperate enough for an unfair advantage that they would grind that wheel or pay real money for others do it for them will cry about you taking their steroids away.

Is this the Olympic standard, or Detroit street fighting?

Yep, and that only furthers the point I've made the entire time: the gap doesn't end up big and it gets smaller very quickly starting after the first small number of points.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

BigInGlenumbra wrote: »

I think that we can all agree that the vast majority of people do not enjoy grinding, under the definition of killing the same mobs in the same area over and over, over other parts of the game, and thus it should not rewarded more per hour played doing such grinding than questing per hour played.

Grinders deserve no sympathy here. Grinding should be very discouraged.

And this of course is separate from the issues of the Champion system such as the inherent and discouraging power gap, but grinding benefits greatly from the CP system, making things even worse.

Again, I'm from Asherons Call, I prefer grinding to quests.

I enjoy the quest line, but I'm old school.

Please, do not impede my style of play and substitute it with someone else's because it inconveniences them..

Yes... because you don't want any inconveniences for you.

If people want to quest, let them quest. If I want to grind, let me grind?

Why discourage a style of play that has been around since UO, DAoC, and Asheron's Call?

This. I can't stand sitting through the tenth rerun of unskippable voiced over Npc role play sequences for quests and being forced to do them to unlock the basic zone access, either. You don't see me saying anyone that enjoys questing is silly. I understand different people enjoy different gameplay. I love pvp and challenging pve for leader board type competition. Grinding is relaxing on off hours to socialize and still make some progress. But as I said months ago it shouldn't be the only good source of champion xp. Pvp, tougher group dungeons, raids, etc should all give good xp too, and questing should give moderate xp since it's much easier and is readily available 24/7 without competition.

ch.ris317b14_ESO · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

BigInGlenumbra wrote: »

I think that we can all agree that the vast majority of people do not enjoy grinding, under the definition of killing the same mobs in the same area over and over, over other parts of the game, and thus it should not rewarded more per hour played doing such grinding than questing per hour played.

Grinders deserve no sympathy here. Grinding should be very discouraged.

And this of course is separate from the issues of the Champion system such as the inherent and discouraging power gap, but grinding benefits greatly from the CP system, making things even worse.

Again, I'm from Asherons Call, I prefer grinding to quests.

I enjoy the quest line, but I'm old school.

Please, do not impede my style of play and substitute it with someone else's because it inconveniences them..

Yes... because you don't want any inconveniences for you.

If people want to quest, let them quest. If I want to grind, let me grind?

Why discourage a style of play that has been around since UO, DAoC, and Asheron's Call?

This. I can't stand sitting through the tenth rerun of unskippable voiced over Npc role play sequences for quests and being forced to do them to unlock the basic zone access, either. You don't see me saying anyone that enjoys questing is silly. I understand different people enjoy different gameplay. I love pvp and challenging pve for leader board type competition. Grinding is relaxing on off hours to socialize and still make some progress. But as I said months ago it shouldn't be the only good source of champion xp. Pvp, tougher group dungeons, raids, etc should all give good xp too, and questing should give moderate xp since it's much easier and is readily available 24/7 without competition.

If you enjoy grinding you are the gaming equivalent of a quaker... and shouldnstick to your own little backwater corner of the internet

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Yep, and that only furthers the point I've made the entire time: the gap doesn't end up big and it gets smaller very quickly starting after the first small number of points.

Your missing the big picture. We all know CP diminishes quickly, actually after 10 points spent it's really small. However like many of us are pointing out that your math fails to do so. The problem is someone with 90 CP verse someone with 360 CP.

90 CP Character (say a new character that reached V14 and has done some content)

30 Elemental Defender - 10.8% reduced damage from fire, cold, and lightning
Spell Absorption - restore magicka when hit for 33% of max health
Resilience - Restore health when hit with critical attack
30 Magician - 7.7% reduced magicka cost
30 Elemental Expert - increase flame, frost and shock damage by 10.8%
Spell Precision - increase spell critical by 12%

vs

360 CP Character (a veteran character who grinds for CP)

80 Elemental Defender - 21.4% reduced damage from fire, cold, and lightning (10.6% increase)
40 Hardy - 13.2% reduced damage from poison, disease, and magic (13.2% increase)
Spell Absorption - restore magicka when hit for 33% of max health
Resilience - Restore health when hit with critical attack
Critical Leech - Restore Health every 5 seconds after a critical strike (BONUS)
Unchained - Reduce Stamina cost of abilities by 80% after breaking free, etc etc (BONUS)
60 Magician - 11.7% reduced magicka cost (4% increase)
30 Arcanist - 10.8% magicka recovery (10.8% increase)
Synergizer - gain 2 ultimate when activating a synergy (BONUS)
30 Tumbling - reduce break free and roll dodge cost by 8.5% (8.5% increase)
100 Elemental Expert - increase flame, frost and shock damage by 25% (14.2% increase)
20 Spell Erosion - increase spell penetration by 8.1% (8.1% increase)
Spell Precision - increase spell critical by 12%
Foresight - reduce cost of spell by 80% after drinking potion (BONUS)
Arcane well - Restore magicka to group after killing enemy (BONUS)

Your example shows only a 3.3 (whatever) increase from someone who has 100 verse 10 CP. Which is a character getting 10 CP for every 1 another player gets. 90 to 360 is 4 for every 1 another character gets. Now image all the passives I listed on the character maxed which is 700 CP.

This is a far more accurate illustration of the difference of progression a typical player would make verse a grinder. As a grinder I can get 4 CP in alittle over an hour at worst. A person who wants to PVE, PVP, or do anything else will take how long to get 4 CP? A couple of days? Drag that out and you will get the picture.

ADDED: If your still not getting this. Here's another point.

Aside from the very first point spent, the most you get per point is .6%. I'll give you that to further illustrate taking Elemental Expert as an example. A grinder that gets 4 CP for every 1 the average player gets, they still get more benefit. 99-100 in Elemental Defender is an increase of .2% which is the lowest you get. Since a grinder gets 4 CP, that's an increase of .8% verses the second point in any passive which grants .6%. You simply DO NOT catch up all the way up to 3600. Although I will admit that a lot of the passives do not necessarily effect gameplay. The number that do is something like 1700. That is a long way away for even grinders, casual won't get there for years.

HxC · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

s. But as I said months ago it shouldn't be the only good source of champion xp. Pvp, tougher group dungeons, raids, etc should all give good xp too, and questing should give moderate xp since it's much easier and is readily available 24/7 without competition.

Can you explain why grinding should reward more xp than questing if people do that to relax ?
And if you relax when grinding its because its easy , right?

And if i understand correctly @Ixtyr , ZOS only need to put on crown store VR14 character, skyshard , AP and the problem is resolved. This solution will save a lot of time to ZOS and they can make more new zones, and everybody is happy !

lathbury · July 2015

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Yep, and that only furthers the point I've made the entire time: the gap doesn't end up big and it gets smaller very quickly starting after the first small number of points.

Your missing the big picture. We all know CP diminishes quickly, actually after 10 points spent it's really small. However like many of us are pointing out that your math fails to do so. The problem is someone with 90 CP verse someone with 360 CP.

90 CP Character (say a new character that reached V14 and has done some content)

30 Elemental Defender - 10.8% reduced damage from fire, cold, and lightning
Spell Absorption - restore magicka when hit for 33% of max health
Resilience - Restore health when hit with critical attack
30 Magician - 7.7% reduced magicka cost
30 Elemental Expert - increase flame, frost and shock damage by 10.8%
Spell Precision - increase spell critical by 12%

vs

360 CP Character (a veteran character who grinds for CP)

80 Elemental Defender - 21.4% reduced damage from fire, cold, and lightning (10.6% increase)
40 Hardy - 13.2% reduced damage from poison, disease, and magic (13.2% increase)
Spell Absorption - restore magicka when hit for 33% of max health
Resilience - Restore health when hit with critical attack
Critical Leech - Restore Health every 5 seconds after a critical strike (BONUS)
Unchained - Reduce Stamina cost of abilities by 80% after breaking free, etc etc (BONUS)
60 Magician - 11.7% reduced magicka cost (4% increase)
30 Arcanist - 10.8% magicka recovery (10.8% increase)
Synergizer - gain 2 ultimate when activating a synergy (BONUS)
30 Tumbling - reduce break free and roll dodge cost by 8.5% (8.5% increase)
100 Elemental Expert - increase flame, frost and shock damage by 25% (14.2% increase)
20 Spell Erosion - increase spell penetration by 8.1% (8.1% increase)
Spell Precision - increase spell critical by 12%
Foresight - reduce cost of spell by 80% after drinking potion (BONUS)
Arcane well - Restore magicka to group after killing enemy (BONUS)

Your example shows only a 3.3 (whatever) increase from someone who has 100 verse 10 CP. Which is a character getting 10 CP for every 1 another player gets. 90 to 360 is 4 for every 1 another character gets. Now image all the passives I listed on the character maxed which is 700 CP.

This is a far more accurate illustration of the difference of progression a typical player would make verse a grinder. As a grinder I can get 4 CP in alittle over an hour at worst. A person who wants to PVE, PVP, or do anything else will take how long to get 4 CP? A couple of days? Drag that out and you will get the picture.

ADDED: If your still not getting this. Here's another point.

Aside from the very first point spent, the most you get per point is .6%. I'll give you that to further illustrate taking Elemental Expert as an example. A grinder that gets 4 CP for every 1 the average player gets, they still get more benefit. 99-100 in Elemental Defender is an increase of .2% which is the lowest you get. Since a grinder gets 4 CP, that's an increase of .8% verses the second point in any passive which grants .6%. You simply DO NOT catch up all the way up to 3600. Although I will admit that a lot of the passives do not necessarily effect gameplay. The number that do is something like 1700. That is a long way away for even grinders, casual won't get there for years.

you forgot the extra stats that those cp provide especially when they are buffed with racial or other passives that give a stat a percentage buff

e1team · July 2015

DenMoria wrote: »

Easy games are fun! Look at Candy Crush, Farmland and Bejeweled.