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The Day ESO Dies
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Gyudan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Attorneyatlawl: I would recommend testing on the PTS with 0CP and 3600CP so you can fully appreciate the difference, rather than adding more broken maths. Thanks.Wololo.2 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Attorneyatlawl: I would recommend testing on the PTS with 0CP and 3600CP so you can fully appreciate the difference, rather than adding more broken maths. Thanks.
I would recommend doing some math to appreciate the difference yourself. What's "broken"?Attorneyatlawl wrote:
25% increased damage This is a big one, but requires two separate 100 point passives for spell builds. Physical builds get it easy only needing one passive (mighty) for that same effect.
25% increased dmg from LAs and HAs Light and heavy weaved attacks account for around 10-14% of singletarget damage (not aoe since you can only hit one target with them), so raising them by 25% only adds in the neighborhood of 3-4% damage to one target. Sounds big but isn't.
25% crit dig Only affects the critical portion, not the base hit amount. If you hit for 5200 damage and crit normally you hit for 50% more damage (60% on nightblades). That portion is increased, not the 5200. Taking that same hit with a 50% amplifier as typical, you would hit for 7800 without this passive, and ((2600 x 1.25) + 5200) = 8450 with the full one hundred points invested. Most builds carry a forty to fifty percent spell crit rate and fifty to sixty percent physical one for stamina. This totals to a gain of 8.33% on only critical hits, which are around half of your hits, for a total gain of about 4.166%. Another one that sounds enormous but isn't.
25% armour pen Will pen about 5000-6000 armor which is roughly 16% extra damage but only against raid tier mobs or extremely high armor players in full heavy with a buff such as immovable going. This decreases against medium users and is minimal against light ones.
12% crit Easy enough, ends up being roughly 6% damage typically, but is obtained very early in the system with just champion rank 90 required (a new character on a fresh, unplayed account hits around champion rank 60 due to the 13 million XP required and twelve levels' worth of enlightenment automatically granted. This assumes a one week real life time span to play during which you would earn another several levels of enlightenment since it gives one every 24 hours
.
Out of all of those, the most important ones like block cost reduction, one damage type (physical gets a free ride compared to spell users since they only need mighty, instead of both thamaturge and elemental expert, for the same effect
), and a maxed regeneration, are earned in full at champion rank 300, and well, as my chart has shown...
... you get most of that gain much earlier. By the time you get to rank 400-600 you've gotten the large majority of power there is to be gained from the system, when you crunch the math out like above
.
Absolutely nothing. As I said at the start, it's impossible to have a discussion about something when you are disputing the objective, cold, hard facts even when the math is laid out in layman's terms. -First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »Who gives a [snip] about BLOODY CHARTS!?!?!?!?!
It aint about the charts folks.... its about not being a HAMSTER EATING [snip] ON A WHEEL!!!!!
endless grind... regardless of competitive advantage .... IS NOT FUN
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
I feel like this is as simple as it gets and is missed.4 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »Who gives a [snip] about BLOODY CHARTS!?!?!?!?!
It aint about the charts folks.... its about not being a HAMSTER EATING [snip] ON A WHEEL!!!!!
endless grind... regardless of competitive advantage .... IS NOT FUN
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
I feel like this is as simple as it gets and is missed.
That's what the entire mmorpg genre was created for. Even fps and other genres are incorporating large elements of that because most players find it fun to have something as a goal and milestones along the way.-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.1 -
Morvul✭✭✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Just to address the list you made, with my comments in bold:
25% increased damage This is a big one, but requires two separate 100 point passives for spell builds. Physical builds get it easy only needing one passive (mighty) for that same effect.
25% increased dmg from LAs and HAs Light and heavy weaved attacks account for around 10-14% of singletarget damage (not aoe since you can only hit one target with them), so raising them by 25% only adds in the neighborhood of 3-4% damage to one target. Sounds big but isn't.
25% crit dig Only affects the critical portion, not the base hit amount. If you hit for 5200 damage and crit normally you hit for 50% more damage (60% on nightblades). That portion is increased, not the 5200. Taking that same hit with a 50% amplifier as typical, you would hit for 7800 without this passive, and ((2600 x 1.25) + 5200) = 8450 with the full one hundred points invested. Most builds carry a forty to fifty percent spell crit rate and fifty to sixty percent physical one for stamina. This totals to a gain of 8.33% on only critical hits, which are around half of your hits, for a total gain of about 4.166%. Another one that sounds enormous but isn't.
25% armour pen Will pen about 5000-6000 armor which is roughly 16% extra damage but only against raid tier mobs or extremely high armor players in full heavy with a buff such as immovable going. This decreases againt medium users and is minimal against light ones.
12% crit Easy enough, ends up being roughly 6% damage typically, but is obtained very early in the system with just champion rank 90 required (a new character on a fresh, unplayed account hits around champion rank 60 due to the 13 million XP required and twelve levels' worth of enlightenment automatically granted. This assumes a one week real life time span to play during which you would earn another several levels of enlightenment since it gives one every 24 hours.
Out of all of those, the most important ones like block cost reduction, one damage type (physical gets a free ride compared to spell users since they only need mighty, instead of both thamaturge and elemental expert, for the same effect), and a maxed regeneration, are earned in full at champion rank 300, and well, as my chart has shown...
... you get most of that gain much earlier. By the time you get to rank 400-600 you've gotten the large majority of power there is to be gained from the system, when you crunch the math out like above.
so, by your own math the CP system grants a player 25% more damage straight up, plus another 4% (light attacks), 4% (crits - and I think your math is wrong there and it's a 8% bonus at the end of the day - but that's not the point of my reply), 10%+ (penetration).
So a total of 40-48% damage bonus (depending on circumstances). That is BEFORE we consider the damage bonus granted by the increase of base magicka/stamina.
At the same time, the system allows to reduce incoming magicka damage by significantly over 25%, and physical damage atleast marginally.
Also at the same time, the system grants enough ressource stability to allow perma-using basically any ability (25% cost reductions AND 25% more resource regeneration)
All this are facts you know, @Attorneyatlawl , your own math has shown them.
And yet you seriously maintain the postion that the CP system makes a character 20, maaaaybe 25% stronger????
And as for the diminishing returns, and "at 300 CP I have most everything I need":
at 300 CP I either have full cost reduction, or full regeneration bonus - or ~60% of both.
same goes for damage and mitigation.
and even with 600 points, when I could have full magicka sustain - as a PvPer that missing STAMINA sustain I would have with 1200 points is very, VERY significant...Edited by Morvul on July 15, 2015 12:01AM1 -
Seaber✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Just to address the list you made, with my comments in bold:
1.25*1.04*1.04*1.16*1.06=1.66
Nice one
Cool story bro! None of that adds like that tho.
You linked a simple wiki math article b4, go read it.
If percentage increases to something are not multiplicative then what are they?Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Just to address the list you made, with my comments in bold:
You didn't include a % increase to dps from the 50% increase to max stamina which would increase the 1.66 even more.0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Just to address the list you made, with my comments in bold:
25% increased damage This is a big one, but requires two separate 100 point passives for spell builds. Physical builds get it easy only needing one passive (mighty) for that same effect.
25% increased dmg from LAs and HAs Light and heavy weaved attacks account for around 10-14% of singletarget damage (not aoe since you can only hit one target with them), so raising them by 25% only adds in the neighborhood of 3-4% damage to one target. Sounds big but isn't.
25% crit dig Only affects the critical portion, not the base hit amount. If you hit for 5200 damage and crit normally you hit for 50% more damage (60% on nightblades). That portion is increased, not the 5200. Taking that same hit with a 50% amplifier as typical, you would hit for 7800 without this passive, and ((2600 x 1.25) + 5200) = 8450 with the full one hundred points invested. Most builds carry a forty to fifty percent spell crit rate and fifty to sixty percent physical one for stamina. This totals to a gain of 8.33% on only critical hits, which are around half of your hits, for a total gain of about 4.166%. Another one that sounds enormous but isn't.
25% armour pen Will pen about 5000-6000 armor which is roughly 16% extra damage but only against raid tier mobs or extremely high armor players in full heavy with a buff such as immovable going. This decreases againt medium users and is minimal against light ones.
12% crit Easy enough, ends up being roughly 6% damage typically, but is obtained very early in the system with just champion rank 90 required (a new character on a fresh, unplayed account hits around champion rank 60 due to the 13 million XP required and twelve levels' worth of enlightenment automatically granted. This assumes a one week real life time span to play during which you would earn another several levels of enlightenment since it gives one every 24 hours.
Out of all of those, the most important ones like block cost reduction, one damage type (physical gets a free ride compared to spell users since they only need mighty, instead of both thamaturge and elemental expert, for the same effect), and a maxed regeneration, are earned in full at champion rank 300, and well, as my chart has shown...
... you get most of that gain much earlier. By the time you get to rank 400-600 you've gotten the large majority of power there is to be gained from the system, when you crunch the math out like above.
so, by your own math the CP system grants a player 25% more damage straight up, plus another 4% (light attacks), 4% (crits - and I think your math is wrong there and it's a 8% bonus at the end of the day - but that's not the point of my reply), 10%+ (penetration).
So a total of 40-48% damage bonus (depending on circumstances). That is BEFORE we consider the damage bonus granted by the increase of base magicka/stamina.
At the same time, the system allows to reduce incoming magicka damage by significantly over 25%, and physical damage atleast marginally.
Also at the same time, the system grants enough ressource stability to allow perma-using basically any ability (25% cost reductions AND 25% more resource regeneration)
All this are facts you know, @Attorneyatlawl , your own math has shown them.
And yet you seriously maintain the postion that the CP system makes a character 20, maaaaybe 25% stronger????
Just as I said... ~8.33% on the critical damage of that hit, and ~4.16% of your overall damage. Why state the same thing? And no, it doesn't add to some flat number as you imply, nor do players magically jump to 3600 champion points in a day while others languish at 10 for years on end. The most vital boosts are earned very early on, and there's already a catch-up system that ZOS has discussed to get slower-levelers (such as myself... my rank is pitiful compared to many people's I've heard of) to 400 more easily. Nix the flat resource gain and the system doesn't end up ultimately making you more than around 20-25% stronger like I said. Even with it, the benefit remains situational. A DPS'er that doesn't even slot extra health in the first place gains nothing particularly from having an extra 49% health in a Trial. That doesn't help make them DPS more strongly.
Cost reduction isn't 25% by the way. It's 15.8%, and you get 10.5% reduction for half the number of points that takes, so spending another 50 points only gets you a 5.3% additional cost reduction. That's a "whopping" (air quotes) 260 magicka off of a spell that costs 4000 once applied, in difference.
As I keep saying... please at least get the facts and the math right before arguing the subjective portion of the discussion. Your opinion is your opinion. You can't "prove" an opinion right or wrong by definition. However, the facts are completely contrary to the claims a lot of the opponents of the champion system keep making.
It's far, far too early to act as if some are at 3600 points and most everyone else is only at 300 or less, when the XP sources aren't even balanced yet and mob grinding is still the only good way to earn them. Once PVP, trials, and dungeons are too, we can start to see how big the gap in points ends up being a few months later, after the 400-point catch-up mechanism is implemented, and the resulting power difference. My guess? It just isn't that big of a deal by then.
As I've mentioned, in a game that lets skilled players kill 5-10 other guys, or where people in top tier trials can have a 60% total gap in DPS oftentimes when trying someone else's exact build down to the gear, skillbars, and passives (30% less when not practiced through around 30% more with practice than someone only average at it)... you could have even a twice-the-power difference for the entire system and I wouldn't feel it was imbalanced, as it still would be the smallest factor in someone's performance in PVP. Gear alone accounts for much more than that. Call the system 25%, 50%, or 75% (a figure that is out of the stratosphere of having any factual basis), and it doesn't really change the point.
EDIT: Also, merging all spell damage types into one passive would go a long way towards making the system more bottom-heavy, and then adding a new passive to reduce all physical damage types by the same amount in the mage (blue) or thief (green) sections of the wheel. Needing to spend 200 points in one section of the wheel (red) to reduce all spell damage by 25% (requiring earning champion rank 600) and having no like option to do that against stamina/physical attacks at all is horrendously imbalanced. Then with 50 points invested in each, a champion rank 150 player would be able to get 15.4% damage reduction against physical and spell attacks. Since a fresh new account with someone's first VR14 character ends up around champion rank 55-60 currently... that's not much of a climb. And once the rank 400 mechanism is implemented... it's nothing.Edited by Attorneyatlawl on July 15, 2015 12:14AM-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.0 -
Seaber✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Nix the flat resource gain and the system doesn't end up ultimately making you more than around 20-25% stronger like I said.
25% phys dmg increase would make you 25% stronger. Anything on top of that makes you over 25% stronger.
1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »Who gives a [snip] about BLOODY CHARTS!?!?!?!?!
It aint about the charts folks.... its about not being a HAMSTER EATING [snip] ON A WHEEL!!!!!
endless grind... regardless of competitive advantage .... IS NOT FUN
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
I feel like this is as simple as it gets and is missed.
That's what the entire mmorpg genre was created for. Even fps and other genres are incorporating large elements of that because most players find it fun to have something as a goal and milestones along the way.
No; they weren't. Maybe someone thought that was it, but I don't. And this idea that they were is probably at the base of why they are becoming boring.
MMOs were made to be a persistent virtual world on a massive scale in area and many players involved in it. The goals people worked toward were originally their own, not manufactured by the developers to just keep you busy in place of content. Character development was a thing, sure; but it was driven by the goals of that player on what they wanted to be, not an endless system to just be consumed and figure out what you want to do with it as you aquire a point.1 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Nix the flat resource gain and the system doesn't end up ultimately making you more than around 20-25% stronger like I said.
25% phys dmg increase would make you 25% stronger. Anything on top of that makes you over 25% stronger.
No, it does not. Basic math:
100% damage
100% damage received
100% healing dealt
100% healing received
100% shielding received
100% resource regeneration
Adding just 1/4th to one of those major factors (and there are a lot more of them in the calculation of the overall power of a player) doesn't even come close. You can say X forever, but it doesn't make it true at any point. I've provided quite a large amount of not only math, facts, and interpretation, but even suggestions at how to help better balance the champion system. I look forward to your contributions.Edited by Attorneyatlawl on July 15, 2015 12:17AM-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.0 -
Gyudan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »@Attorneyatlawl: I would recommend testing on the PTS with 0CP and 3600CP so you can fully appreciate the difference, rather than adding more broken maths. Thanks.
I would recommend doing some math to appreciate the difference yourself. What's "broken"?
*digs into old threads*
This is the difference between 0 and 3600 CPs for a V14 tank a while ago:
Magicka +64%
Health +46%
Stamina +42%
On top of the 25% increased physicial and magical damage, increased armor and spell resistance and all other champion system passives.
The overall power boost provided by the champion system is far above 25%.
0 CPs
3600 CPs
As I was merely suggesting earlier, testing the damage of a spell with various amounts of CPs would provide better results than trying to take all the passives into account.Wololo.0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »Who gives a [snip] about BLOODY CHARTS!?!?!?!?!
It aint about the charts folks.... its about not being a HAMSTER EATING [snip] ON A WHEEL!!!!!
endless grind... regardless of competitive advantage .... IS NOT FUN
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
I feel like this is as simple as it gets and is missed.
That's what the entire mmorpg genre was created for. Even fps and other genres are incorporating large elements of that because most players find it fun to have something as a goal and milestones along the way.
No; they weren't. Maybe someone thought that was it, but I don't. And this idea that they were is probably at the base of why they are becoming boring.
MMOs were made to be a persistent virtual world on a massive scale in area and many players involved in it. The goals people worked toward were originally their own, not manufactured by the developers to just keep you busy in place of content. Character development was a thing, sure; but it was driven by the goals of that player on what they wanted to be, not an endless system to just be consumed and figure out what you want to do with it as you aquire a point.
EverQuest 1 and Ultima Online were arguably the first MMORPG's of the modern era, though one could make a case for Meridian 59.
And that's exactly what they were about. This massive need of "add new content!" is completely contrary to the point of MMORPG's in the first place, which was to provide systemic progression methods through economy, gear, characters, skill, and diplomacy/guilds such as maintaining control of key land and protecting houses, controlling areas rich in resources or monsters that provided them, etc.
Everyone complaining and demanding new dungeons or story quest zones that you will finish in 10 hours isn't looking for an MMORPG. They're looking for Skyrim
. Edited by Attorneyatlawl on July 15, 2015 12:19AM-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.1 -
Morvul✭✭✭✭✭
actually... it does...Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Just to address the list you made, with my comments in bold:
25% increased damage This is a big one, but requires two separate 100 point passives for spell builds. Physical builds get it easy only needing one passive (mighty) for that same effect.
25% increased dmg from LAs and HAs Light and heavy weaved attacks account for around 10-14% of singletarget damage (not aoe since you can only hit one target with them), so raising them by 25% only adds in the neighborhood of 3-4% damage to one target. Sounds big but isn't.
25% crit dig Only affects the critical portion, not the base hit amount. If you hit for 5200 damage and crit normally you hit for 50% more damage (60% on nightblades). That portion is increased, not the 5200. Taking that same hit with a 50% amplifier as typical, you would hit for 7800 without this passive, and ((2600 x 1.25) + 5200) = 8450 with the full one hundred points invested. Most builds carry a forty to fifty percent spell crit rate and fifty to sixty percent physical one for stamina. This totals to a gain of 8.33% on only critical hits, which are around half of your hits, for a total gain of about 4.166%. Another one that sounds enormous but isn't.
25% armour pen Will pen about 5000-6000 armor which is roughly 16% extra damage but only against raid tier mobs or extremely high armor players in full heavy with a buff such as immovable going. This decreases againt medium users and is minimal against light ones.
12% crit Easy enough, ends up being roughly 6% damage typically, but is obtained very early in the system with just champion rank 90 required (a new character on a fresh, unplayed account hits around champion rank 60 due to the 13 million XP required and twelve levels' worth of enlightenment automatically granted. This assumes a one week real life time span to play during which you would earn another several levels of enlightenment since it gives one every 24 hours.
Out of all of those, the most important ones like block cost reduction, one damage type (physical gets a free ride compared to spell users since they only need mighty, instead of both thamaturge and elemental expert, for the same effect), and a maxed regeneration, are earned in full at champion rank 300, and well, as my chart has shown...
... you get most of that gain much earlier. By the time you get to rank 400-600 you've gotten the large majority of power there is to be gained from the system, when you crunch the math out like above.
so, by your own math the CP system grants a player 25% more damage straight up, plus another 4% (light attacks), 4% (crits - and I think your math is wrong there and it's a 8% bonus at the end of the day - but that's not the point of my reply), 10%+ (penetration).
So a total of 40-48% damage bonus (depending on circumstances). That is BEFORE we consider the damage bonus granted by the increase of base magicka/stamina.
At the same time, the system allows to reduce incoming magicka damage by significantly over 25%, and physical damage atleast marginally.
Also at the same time, the system grants enough ressource stability to allow perma-using basically any ability (25% cost reductions AND 25% more resource regeneration)
All this are facts you know, @Attorneyatlawl , your own math has shown them.
And yet you seriously maintain the postion that the CP system makes a character 20, maaaaybe 25% stronger????
A DPS'er that doesn't even slot extra health in the first place gains nothing particularly from having an extra 49% health in a Trial. That doesn't help make them DPS more strongly.
"mathable option": it allows to forgoe +health buff food and opt for buff food which increases stamina/magicka even more. admitedly, that gives only extremely tiny dps benefit.
"non-mathable option": having a significantly larger healthpool allows DPS players to ignore potentially deadly mechanics. i.E: keeps standing in the red and dpsing away instead of investing time (and hence dps) to avoid that danger.
That said, I missed that your "CP gives 20-25% power" comment was in a "CP no longer gives direct stat boni" theoretical situation. I still believe it's more then 25% even then - but not by leaps and bounds as I was implying above - and the first 5-10 percentage points of that are gained very early on...
So nixing the CP based stat boni, implementing a catch-up mechanic (or increasing the diminishing returns more) and balancing the magicka and stamina side of the CP system - and it'd be almost perfect
2 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »@Attorneyatlawl: I would recommend testing on the PTS with 0CP and 3600CP so you can fully appreciate the difference, rather than adding more broken maths. Thanks.
I would recommend doing some math to appreciate the difference yourself. What's "broken"?
*digs into old threads*
This is the difference between 0 and 3600 CPs for a V14 tank a while ago:
Magicka +64%
Health +46%
Stamina +42%
On top of the 25% increased physicial and magical damage, increased armor and spell resistance and all other champion system passives.
The overall power boost provided by the champion system is far above 25%.
0 CPs
3600 CPs
As I was merely suggesting earlier, testing the damage of a spell with various amounts of CPs would provide better results than trying to take all the passives into account.
Thanks for proving my point. The whole argument of the system providing global, massive gains that make a 25% overall benefit looks tiny as you and others implied, is a red herring. Most of the passives are very much situational... if I'm casting a magic-damage spell, what benefit is elemental damage to me at that time? If it doesn't critically hit... what benefit is that 8.33% overall damage gain on only critical hits to me? "25%" stamina regeneration looks great on paper... but 185 extra regeneration every two seconds on a pool of 20,000 doesn't do very much.-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
actually... it does...Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Just to address the list you made, with my comments in bold:
25% increased damage This is a big one, but requires two separate 100 point passives for spell builds. Physical builds get it easy only needing one passive (mighty) for that same effect.
25% increased dmg from LAs and HAs Light and heavy weaved attacks account for around 10-14% of singletarget damage (not aoe since you can only hit one target with them), so raising them by 25% only adds in the neighborhood of 3-4% damage to one target. Sounds big but isn't.
25% crit dig Only affects the critical portion, not the base hit amount. If you hit for 5200 damage and crit normally you hit for 50% more damage (60% on nightblades). That portion is increased, not the 5200. Taking that same hit with a 50% amplifier as typical, you would hit for 7800 without this passive, and ((2600 x 1.25) + 5200) = 8450 with the full one hundred points invested. Most builds carry a forty to fifty percent spell crit rate and fifty to sixty percent physical one for stamina. This totals to a gain of 8.33% on only critical hits, which are around half of your hits, for a total gain of about 4.166%. Another one that sounds enormous but isn't.
25% armour pen Will pen about 5000-6000 armor which is roughly 16% extra damage but only against raid tier mobs or extremely high armor players in full heavy with a buff such as immovable going. This decreases againt medium users and is minimal against light ones.
12% crit Easy enough, ends up being roughly 6% damage typically, but is obtained very early in the system with just champion rank 90 required (a new character on a fresh, unplayed account hits around champion rank 60 due to the 13 million XP required and twelve levels' worth of enlightenment automatically granted. This assumes a one week real life time span to play during which you would earn another several levels of enlightenment since it gives one every 24 hours.
Out of all of those, the most important ones like block cost reduction, one damage type (physical gets a free ride compared to spell users since they only need mighty, instead of both thamaturge and elemental expert, for the same effect), and a maxed regeneration, are earned in full at champion rank 300, and well, as my chart has shown...
... you get most of that gain much earlier. By the time you get to rank 400-600 you've gotten the large majority of power there is to be gained from the system, when you crunch the math out like above.
so, by your own math the CP system grants a player 25% more damage straight up, plus another 4% (light attacks), 4% (crits - and I think your math is wrong there and it's a 8% bonus at the end of the day - but that's not the point of my reply), 10%+ (penetration).
So a total of 40-48% damage bonus (depending on circumstances). That is BEFORE we consider the damage bonus granted by the increase of base magicka/stamina.
At the same time, the system allows to reduce incoming magicka damage by significantly over 25%, and physical damage atleast marginally.
Also at the same time, the system grants enough ressource stability to allow perma-using basically any ability (25% cost reductions AND 25% more resource regeneration)
All this are facts you know, @Attorneyatlawl , your own math has shown them.
And yet you seriously maintain the postion that the CP system makes a character 20, maaaaybe 25% stronger????
A DPS'er that doesn't even slot extra health in the first place gains nothing particularly from having an extra 49% health in a Trial. That doesn't help make them DPS more strongly.
"mathable option": it allows to forgoe +health buff food and opt for buff food which increases stamina/magicka even more. admitedly, that gives only extremely tiny dps benefit.
"non-mathable option": having a significantly larger healthpool allows DPS players to ignore potentially deadly mechanics. i.E: keeps standing in the red and dpsing away instead of investing time (and hence dps) to avoid that danger.
That said, I missed that your "CP gives 20-25% power" comment was in a "CP no longer gives direct stat boni" theoretical situation. I still believe it's more then 25% even then - but not by leaps and bounds as I was implying above - and the first 5-10 percentage points of that are gained very early on...
So nixing the CP based stat boni, implementing a catch-up mechanic (or increasing the diminishing returns more) and balancing the magicka and stamina side of the CP system - and it'd be almost perfect
That is very sensible, and it isn't something I ignored when making my post just for the record. The majority of the mechanics in trials that will kill you will do so with twice the health. The non-mathable option there does, however, very much affect PVP . Thank you for coming back after reading and stating your thoughts. As the thread has shown, I made my statements in the context of not having a very large percentage bonus to the primary stats (magicka/health/stamina). With those taken into account, I still think that adding the catch-up mechanism they've already discussed (making the first 400 points take an extremely low amount of experience as compared to now) alongside lowering the overall raw stat gain, would make the system balanced.
How much power someone thinks is acceptable to gain for playing a game a year or two or more earlier than a brand new player, is a matter of opinion. I imagine my tolerance is probably higher than average. However, I also don't think the whole thing needs to be thrown out as many are demanding, but rather just tweaked by a combination of XP parity across sources (pvp, trials, dungeons, etc. should give xp on par with what mob grinding does now), the catch-up mechanism, and then after seeing how the dust settles, adjusting the global gain of raw stats downward by some amount, is more than enough to bring it to the original design intent of providing extra progression for playing in what you find fun, game-wide.-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.0 -
Morvul✭✭✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »
actually... it does...Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Just to address the list you made, with my comments in bold:
25% increased damage This is a big one, but requires two separate 100 point passives for spell builds. Physical builds get it easy only needing one passive (mighty) for that same effect.
25% increased dmg from LAs and HAs Light and heavy weaved attacks account for around 10-14% of singletarget damage (not aoe since you can only hit one target with them), so raising them by 25% only adds in the neighborhood of 3-4% damage to one target. Sounds big but isn't.
25% crit dig Only affects the critical portion, not the base hit amount. If you hit for 5200 damage and crit normally you hit for 50% more damage (60% on nightblades). That portion is increased, not the 5200. Taking that same hit with a 50% amplifier as typical, you would hit for 7800 without this passive, and ((2600 x 1.25) + 5200) = 8450 with the full one hundred points invested. Most builds carry a forty to fifty percent spell crit rate and fifty to sixty percent physical one for stamina. This totals to a gain of 8.33% on only critical hits, which are around half of your hits, for a total gain of about 4.166%. Another one that sounds enormous but isn't.
25% armour pen Will pen about 5000-6000 armor which is roughly 16% extra damage but only against raid tier mobs or extremely high armor players in full heavy with a buff such as immovable going. This decreases againt medium users and is minimal against light ones.
12% crit Easy enough, ends up being roughly 6% damage typically, but is obtained very early in the system with just champion rank 90 required (a new character on a fresh, unplayed account hits around champion rank 60 due to the 13 million XP required and twelve levels' worth of enlightenment automatically granted. This assumes a one week real life time span to play during which you would earn another several levels of enlightenment since it gives one every 24 hours.
Out of all of those, the most important ones like block cost reduction, one damage type (physical gets a free ride compared to spell users since they only need mighty, instead of both thamaturge and elemental expert, for the same effect), and a maxed regeneration, are earned in full at champion rank 300, and well, as my chart has shown...
... you get most of that gain much earlier. By the time you get to rank 400-600 you've gotten the large majority of power there is to be gained from the system, when you crunch the math out like above.
so, by your own math the CP system grants a player 25% more damage straight up, plus another 4% (light attacks), 4% (crits - and I think your math is wrong there and it's a 8% bonus at the end of the day - but that's not the point of my reply), 10%+ (penetration).
So a total of 40-48% damage bonus (depending on circumstances). That is BEFORE we consider the damage bonus granted by the increase of base magicka/stamina.
At the same time, the system allows to reduce incoming magicka damage by significantly over 25%, and physical damage atleast marginally.
Also at the same time, the system grants enough ressource stability to allow perma-using basically any ability (25% cost reductions AND 25% more resource regeneration)
All this are facts you know, @Attorneyatlawl , your own math has shown them.
And yet you seriously maintain the postion that the CP system makes a character 20, maaaaybe 25% stronger????
A DPS'er that doesn't even slot extra health in the first place gains nothing particularly from having an extra 49% health in a Trial. That doesn't help make them DPS more strongly.
"mathable option": it allows to forgoe +health buff food and opt for buff food which increases stamina/magicka even more. admitedly, that gives only extremely tiny dps benefit.
"non-mathable option": having a significantly larger healthpool allows DPS players to ignore potentially deadly mechanics. i.E: keeps standing in the red and dpsing away instead of investing time (and hence dps) to avoid that danger.
That said, I missed that your "CP gives 20-25% power" comment was in a "CP no longer gives direct stat boni" theoretical situation. I still believe it's more then 25% even then - but not by leaps and bounds as I was implying above - and the first 5-10 percentage points of that are gained very early on...
So nixing the CP based stat boni, implementing a catch-up mechanic (or increasing the diminishing returns more) and balancing the magicka and stamina side of the CP system - and it'd be almost perfect
That is very sensible, and it isn't something I ignored when making my post just for the record. The majority of the mechanics in trials that will kill you will do so with twice the health. The non-mathable option there does, however, very much affect PVP . Thank you for coming back after reading and stating your thoughts. As the thread has shown, I made my statements in the context of not having a very large percentage bonus to the primary stats (magicka/health/stamina). With those taken into account, I still think that adding the catch-up mechanism they've already discussed (making the first 400 points take an extremely low amount of experience as compared to now) alongside lowering the overall raw stat gain, would make the system balanced.
How much power someone thinks is acceptable to gain for playing a game a year or two or more earlier than a brand new player, is a matter of opinion. I imagine my tolerance is probably higher than average. However, I also don't think the whole thing needs to be thrown out as many are demanding, but rather just tweaked by a combination of XP parity across sources (pvp, trials, dungeons, etc. should give xp on par with what mob grinding does now), the catch-up mechanism, and then after seeing how the dust settles, adjusting the global gain of raw stats downward by some amount, is more than enough to bring it to the original design intent of providing extra progression for playing in what you find fun, game-wide.
oh, I certainly agree that the CP system needs tuning, not deletion.
I just believe that in addition to the rebalancing (both in terms of XP parity as well as stamina power versus magicka power the system gives) it still needs to be weakend a bit.
obviously I have less tolerance for "insurmountable power gap" then you
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Seaber✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »
100% damageAttorneyatlawl wrote: »Nix the flat resource gain and the system doesn't end up ultimately making you more than around 20-25% stronger like I said.
25% phys dmg increase would make you 25% stronger. Anything on top of that makes you over 25% stronger.
100% damage received
100% healing dealt
100% healing received
100% shielding received
100% resource regeneration
The purpose of a dps in a trial is to just do damage to the boss to kill it as fast as possible.
Damage recieved, healing dealt, healing recieved, shielding recieved and resource regeneration is all handled by the healers or by using wasd.
One dps doing 25% more dps than another dps is 25% stronger0 -
VoidBlue✭✭✭✭all this maths talk makes me sad. why cant we all just throw rocks instead of numbers?3
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Morvul✭✭✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »
100% damageAttorneyatlawl wrote: »Nix the flat resource gain and the system doesn't end up ultimately making you more than around 20-25% stronger like I said.
25% phys dmg increase would make you 25% stronger. Anything on top of that makes you over 25% stronger.
100% damage received
100% healing dealt
100% healing received
100% shielding received
100% resource regeneration
The purpose of a dps in a trial is to just do damage to the boss to kill it as fast as possible.
Damage recieved, healing dealt, healing recieved, shielding recieved and resource regeneration is all handled by the healers or by using wasd.
One dps doing 25% more dps than another dps is 25% stronger
well, the resource regeneration can't be ignored - as more resources allow gear to be shifted away from resources and towards even more damage.
but since those boni are provided by differnt CP pools anyway, the point is kind of moot and only reinforces the argument re: CP gives more then 25% bonusEdited by Morvul on July 15, 2015 12:56AM0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Attorneyatlawl wrote: »ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »Who gives a [snip] about BLOODY CHARTS!?!?!?!?!
It aint about the charts folks.... its about not being a HAMSTER EATING [snip] ON A WHEEL!!!!!
endless grind... regardless of competitive advantage .... IS NOT FUN
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
I feel like this is as simple as it gets and is missed.
That's what the entire mmorpg genre was created for. Even fps and other genres are incorporating large elements of that because most players find it fun to have something as a goal and milestones along the way.
No; they weren't. Maybe someone thought that was it, but I don't. And this idea that they were is probably at the base of why they are becoming boring.
MMOs were made to be a persistent virtual world on a massive scale in area and many players involved in it. The goals people worked toward were originally their own, not manufactured by the developers to just keep you busy in place of content. Character development was a thing, sure; but it was driven by the goals of that player on what they wanted to be, not an endless system to just be consumed and figure out what you want to do with it as you aquire a point.
EverQuest 1 and Ultima Online were arguably the first MMORPG's of the modern era, though one could make a case for Meridian 59.
And that's exactly what they were about. This massive need of "add new content!" is completely contrary to the point of MMORPG's in the first place, which was to provide systemic progression methods through economy, gear, characters, skill, and diplomacy/guilds such as maintaining control of key land and protecting houses, controlling areas rich in resources or monsters that provided them, etc.
Everyone complaining and demanding new dungeons or story quest zones that you will finish in 10 hours isn't looking for an MMORPG. They're looking for Skyrim.
Their content was their worlds, not gear seasons and endless progression . Not in UO at least as far as I felt. And I never said anything about wanting new content all the time. It's just that is the current state of MMOS and when they cannot seem to just make enjoyable and a repeatable environment, we got the Champion system as filler and people actually buy it as something to do just because of progression for progression sake with little for goals to reach or any aim. Just accumulate and sort it out as you go.
I know UO was a sandbox though but it had enough just in playing with different skill mixes which is similar to here only here you have levels attached. That was the progression there and you gave up skills to get new ones rather than just pay your way back and forth . At least then when you started grinding at it, you had a purpose set in mind rather than just accumulate to keep up with the Jones's.1 -
Baconlad✭✭✭✭✭
✭I cannot believe all the players who are on board with a level cap increase. This game is so much different than traditional mmos regarding gear. For example, WoW, eq1/2. In these games, every year and a half to two years, you got a whole new set of gear to grind towards to get. It might take you a year to get it all. Might take three months. Once you get the gear you can enjoy the gear you have worked to get by being fantastic at what you do. In eso, the devs have given us an open book. They gave us the tools to CHOOSE how to play based on our gear choices. They have given us an AWESOME amount of gear to play with, experiment with and build a character that we can say is OUR creation (try saying that while playing WoW's gear thoughts). So I have four complete gear sets that I pick and choose from depending on how I want to play. Add in the amount of time it took me to gather all these sets and the gold required to get ( non of it is legendary either...) it means a LONG time spent gathering these sets, and I play with all of them equipped at different times. This game DOESNT EVER NEED TO RAISE THE LEVEL CAP. They could get away with simply adding new gear sets and motifs into the game every couple of months. A player, two years from now, still v14 can still feel like he's building his character in this game. We also have the CP system to give us another carrot on top of the gear freedom carrot to chase. It seems to me that ZOS is trying to change their gear and leveling style to that of the other traditional games...heres the thing, you think I left WoW after seven years of enjoyment to come play a game with the same gear grind? Oh and to make it worse, now I don't get to enjoy the gear I do get for more than a few months before the level cap is increased again. Three increases in less than a year and a half, compared to WoW with five increases in over ten years? YAH RIGHT. zeni seems to think we play FOR the gear grind...not to enjoy our gear. BTW zeni devs, I have not played in three weeks, canceled my sub last week, and will not be playing again unless you pull this level increase from the patch. Also the stamina regen from blocking? I at least want to know why, that not game breaking to me, but very confusing...as if having a tank in pvp is already gimping yourself, you solidify your disdain for magick tanks, and tanks in general with this...i dont get it....its sad where and how fast this game has gone downhill...i was more a fan boy than DELTIA until this patch0 -
Folkb✭✭✭✭✭Good games hide the grind, for gear or otherwise. The main point was fun and adventure in MMO's to mimic the fun people had in their D&D adventures before MMO's were a thing. Somewhere along the lines this was lost for people's insatiable lust for shiny objects.
Those people are idiots.
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Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The % gain numbers are there. It's your opinion on whether that makes a big or small difference to you.
(My opinion)In the world of MMOs, where most people participating in end-game min-max their builds, the power increase from CPs is FREAKING GIGANTIC.Edited by Sallington on July 15, 2015 1:34PMDaggerfall Covenant
Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||2 -
Kloud✭✭✭Cp system is here to stay all this massive thread and talk and for what they won't change it all I see them doing Is adding a catch up system in the future I have 262 cps and fight people with 400 500 and don't see a big difference all the math in the world won't make zos remove the champ system everyone is posting a nearly 50 page thread for pretty much no reason imo0
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technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »The % gain numbers are there. It's your opinion on whether that makes a big or small difference to you.
(My opinion)In the world of MMOs, where most people participating in end-game min-max their builds, the power increase from CPs is FREAKING GIGANTIC.
Lol yeah. If you min max, 2% is worth chasing.0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Attorneyatlawl wrote: »ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »Who gives a [snip] about BLOODY CHARTS!?!?!?!?!
It aint about the charts folks.... its about not being a HAMSTER EATING [snip] ON A WHEEL!!!!!
endless grind... regardless of competitive advantage .... IS NOT FUN
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
I feel like this is as simple as it gets and is missed.
That's what the entire mmorpg genre was created for. Even fps and other genres are incorporating large elements of that because most players find it fun to have something as a goal and milestones along the way.
No; they weren't. Maybe someone thought that was it, but I don't. And this idea that they were is probably at the base of why they are becoming boring.
MMOs were made to be a persistent virtual world on a massive scale in area and many players involved in it. The goals people worked toward were originally their own, not manufactured by the developers to just keep you busy in place of content. Character development was a thing, sure; but it was driven by the goals of that player on what they wanted to be, not an endless system to just be consumed and figure out what you want to do with it as you aquire a point.
EverQuest 1 and Ultima Online were arguably the first MMORPG's of the modern era, though one could make a case for Meridian 59.
And that's exactly what they were about. This massive need of "add new content!" is completely contrary to the point of MMORPG's in the first place, which was to provide systemic progression methods through economy, gear, characters, skill, and diplomacy/guilds such as maintaining control of key land and protecting houses, controlling areas rich in resources or monsters that provided them, etc.
Everyone complaining and demanding new dungeons or story quest zones that you will finish in 10 hours isn't looking for an MMORPG. They're looking for Skyrim.
Replayability plays a role. I have yet to find a single MMO (old or new) that can last 1/10 of what my most enjoyed M.U.D. game could provide. As of now I have stopped playing it (very hard core and my connection was not reliable enough not to cause me deaths - each of which costed 1/3 of level where 1 level took upwards to 1 month to get!) and I was still level 88 / 100 and with about 30% content still to even explore!
I have yet to find a single modern MMO with smart mechanisms enough to keep it as replayable as EvE or UO. One could play for months or even years at the same 2-3 features without overdoing them to the point of dropping the game.
Modern MMOs are just flashy yet shallow, short lived, for an instant gratification people and generally are just badly designed. That's why people "finish them in 10 hours" and then they get bored already and demand for more content.
Case in point: ESO's last VR levels and CP system: grueling grinding with no enjoyable and actionable content or gameplay.Edited by Vahrokh on July 16, 2015 1:44AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »The % gain numbers are there. It's your opinion on whether that makes a big or small difference to you.
(My opinion)In the world of MMOs, where most people participating in end-game min-max their builds, the power increase from CPs is FREAKING GIGANTIC.
I recall in ultra-hard core PvE WoW guilds we would butcher somebody's mother for that 1.5% damage increase, that costed months of gear grinding, endless consummables and so on. Here they hand 10-15 and even 20% like it's candy.Edited by Vahrokh on July 16, 2015 1:45AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO4 -
GhbSoul Shriveni agree with everything written here ZOS is just looking for yet another way to milk the wallets of the players of eso yet again. the 100 points every 3 months is a perfect way to settle the champion point unbalance. vet 16 is stupid they need to stop thinking that increasing the level cap will get people playing again because it wont. the millions of gold people have spent on Armour and gold materials and hours spent grinding dungeons and trials to loot these rare items all just to be out leveled when they don't even have v14 dungeon content yet? i seriously don't understand adding in more vet levels when nothing is scaled to the current vet levels yet if you want people to play more add in more raids more dungeons pvp area anything but more levels.0
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GhbSoul ShrivenAlso when you say you are bringing another vet level out a lot of the game just stops no one buys anything no one plays everyone just sits in chat ranting about the stupid changes you guys make. i used to play every day until about 5 days ago when i read full detail about the upcoming patch and thought well *** why play right now if i loot any rare items no ones gonna buy them and im not going to use them all i can do is log on do a daily writ then log off and go play league of legends.0
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Soulharvester✭✭✭I don't mind the increase and whether or not they lose the vr well that's up to them. I don't like speculation as a gamer, I will just play what they put in the game. Why, well its easy, I also like the mmo portion of an Elder Scrolls game. I imagine a lot of people like that.
If I don't like it or find it silly then I feedback and move on...
I watched a lot of your videos deltia and you have a pretty decent setup going, but its a game and people are going to play whatever they do to it. Maybe some of us wont, but people will play and I find it better to go with than against.
Just my thoughts on the matter.1
This discussion has been closed.