The Day ESO Dies

Rune_Relic

HxC wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

HxC wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You imply I have choice. There is none.
I want to enjoy PVP but I cant compete without grinding on the treadmill.
If I grind on the treadmill, not only do I fail to enjoy PVE, I also spend all my time grinding instead of playing PVE or PVP.
Those that have no job and spend all their time at home on the game can spend 8 hours grinding and 4 hours+ playing PVP or PVE if they like.
Most people if they get 4 hours a day would rather spend that on game.
Even if they split that 2 hour play and 2 hours grind they can never compete and never catch up.

You cannot build a game around appeasing fulltime hardcore players and punishing everyone else.
They don't make up the majority of your playerbase by any stretch of the imagination.
All you are doing is driving the vast majority of your customers away.
As has been amply demonstrated with the collapse of the guilds and playerbase.

I would be more apt to agree with the sentiments of this thread on CP's if there was mathematical proof that CP's have a noteworthy impact on character performance by way of PvP and PvE. As far as "collapse of guilds", it is the life blood of MMOs, every game in the history of MMOs has had a dark era, for many it was a failure for many it was a success.

Only Attorneyatlawl has provided any type of mathematical inquiry and scientific insight, his findings show that grinding CP past a certain point is not numerically significant.
'
With that said so far it shows that skill will still supersede a mathematical advantage in Cyrodiil at this point. Which makes the hamster wheel argument relevant because if CP's truly mean nothing then there is only awaiting the next DLC, which people have already are bored with current content while people like you are trying to enjoy the game.

Before it was too damn hard to get Veteran levels, now it's much easier to gain vet levels. Now its back to every problem every MMO has ever faced, the gap between casuals and hardcore players.

So where do you fill in the gap? Gear? "CPs", Levels?

How many people are going to enjoy the storyline vs PvP/PvE mechanical functionality and blow through Mythos and storytelling and get straight to the endgame?

In my opinion, ZOS is being intelligent by taking their time fixing current issues slowly and methodically rather than rushing content to appease the squeakiest wheel on the ESOTU bus.

Another problem lies in the fact that how can they improve a game when they have to wade through a bunch of bs just to get to the folks who do not soak the forums in their tears and nerdrage and have really well written and coherent concerns and improvements. They are going to soak the "next big thing" in their tears when it fails doesn't spoil them, because they are addicted to riding the hypetrain, I with held my assessments and conclusions for years, but after Stars Wars launch, there it is.

*shrug* That is just me, I am a admittedly patient with this game, I take my time. Not rushing to the end when I know by the time I get there something new, cool, and shiny is going to come out.

I have been one of the few producing figures and not crap....

1234567

..This is stamina increase over standard as CP points increase. Magicka and Health also increase at the same rate. ALL passive/active bonuses are scaled based off magicka/stamina/health as well as spell/weapon damage. So not only do you get damage CS passive increase you also get the CS stat based increase as a double whammy.
What would you give to have a 5 pc set bonus of +15% stamina/magicka/health on top of your existing 5 pc set bonus (350 cp) ?


Now imagine you could have upto ZILCH% increase on all stats.

@TheBonesXXX gets to the actual parts that matter. The chart you show, not only has an ambiguous "100%" starting point, but then paths in a way that doesn't line up with how the system even works.

Your plot area isn't a 1:1 area. It is 886 pixels horizontally by 572 high, which distorts the gain to appear at a ratio of 54% stronger than it would otherwise. A one-to-one plot area would scale from "100%" to "200%" for the vertical axis, or in other words, "1x increase" against a "100%" of champion points you could earn on the horizontal axis, aka 3600 in the labels.

Here's what it looks like, when attempting to present facts objectively on a neutral basis after scaling and adjusting the graph plot area to usual statistical chart presentation standards:

This isn't even mentioning providing a completely unhinged "statistic" from any actual game information or context as to what it supposed to mean.



The bottom line ends up being what @TheBonesXXX got at: what do you want out of your MMO? In a game where skill is enough of a factor that great players can take out 5-10 people alone in PVP, having a progression system to help bridge the gap between work being done on the game and provide a point in doing things game-wide (once the XP is evened out across activities like PVP and PVE/dungeons/trials)... what exactly are you looking for?

How do the cool kids say it... oh right. "Wrecked". @Rune_Relic 's bias just got blown to pieces.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

lol. Wrecked ? Really....
http://asolutionaday.com/calculators-index/
People should check they actually know what they are talking about before they attempt to wreck an argument.

The stamina, magicka and health increase to stat is proportional to existing stat point bias (so varies).
So if you had 20,000 stamina you would get app. 1.49x multiplyer or 149% of base stamina at 3000 cp or 29800 stamina.
As the starting values depend on how many points you have invested in stamina/magicka/health from 1-62.... its impossible to graph the actual quantity of increase (as it varies from player to player)...only the proportion can be modelled universally.
Anything else would be misleading.

There is nothing wrong with the scale of the graph. Its not logarithmic or misleading in anyway.
Its perfectly uniform in x and y axes. It makes it very easy to see what champion points create what magnitude increase.
So the relative proportions of CP or magnitude is completelet irrelevant.....other than personal preference and nit picking.
It starts from 100% with 0cp and then increase above 100% depending on the scale of the multiplyer where 1x current stamina/magicka/health is 100%.
Remove all the CP and you would be back to 100% stamina/magicka/stamina without any CP bonus multiplier.

Is this really the best argument you have ?
Cant argue with the math so attack the way its presented instead ?
Explains everything.

20000 to 29800 is a 49% increase
100 % increase is x2 multiplier.

The Axis should start at 0 if the curve has been there to show "the stamina increase per champion point"
If you made a curve for stamina only the x axis should finish at 1200. Or your curve should not be linear if you put 3000 on x Axis

I'm agree with the other your graph is not a graph it's a green line drew on a grid.

So you are arguing over whether I should have put the increase only or the total value ?

How can I say stamina has increased by 50%..without showing 100% + 50%.
Do we ignore the 100% that we are actually working on then ?

A value multiplied by 1.5 = 150%
(1x 100%) + (0.5x 100%)

Hence 20,000 stamina x 150% = 30,000 stamina

Your graph is about the INCREASE OF STAMINA PER CHAMPION POINT
The name of your Y axis is Percent of stamina increase , so the value on Y axis should start at 0 because at 0 CP the increase is 0.

And on the x Axis you should put only the Thief points because Warrior and Mage don't give stamina.
As a said if you put all CP point no matter if they give stamina or not your curve should not be like that.

So everything is wrong with your "graph", the look of a curve showing the increase per cp should be a strait line(thief point only) because the base bonus is a flat number or look like a staicase if you put all CP on your axis (Warrior, Mage, Thief).

Seaber wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

With champion rank 3600, you gain 12k to each of Magicka, Stamina, and Health. Considering players run around with anywhere between 2300-4400 spell/weapon power depending on their spec (which totals in excess of double the contribution alone, that the main stat total gives in the first place on the higher end of that scale for stamina builds), alongside 30k-38k magicka or stamina, presenting the chart as a singular "percentage" (which again, isn't connected to anything in-game), is disingenuous.

No. Wrong.

0 CPs:
http://i.imgur.com/aNP1Hry.jpg

3600 CPs:
http://i.imgur.com/T5KlC9X.jpg

Both pictures were taken while wearing the medium armour that the pts templates are given.

11883/7958 = 1.4932
13057/8744 = 1.4932
33152/22202 = 1.4932
Thanks.
You should do the same at 3000 points and get the same result.

Robbmrp

The day that ESO Dies will be when @ZOS announces they are pushing Imperial City to 2016.....

There's too many problems in the game(PVE & PVP LAG), no new content and crap rewards to keep anyone playing this for another 6-12 months as is.

Vahrokh

Robbmrp wrote: »

The day that ESO Dies will be when @ZOS announces they are pushing Imperial City to 2016.....

There's too many problems in the game(PVE & PVP LAG), no new content and crap rewards to keep anyone playing this for another 6-12 months as is.

Why, are you waiting for it to be released much sooner than that?

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Vahrokh wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

The day that ESO Dies will be when @ZOS announces they are pushing Imperial City to 2016.....

There's too many problems in the game(PVE & PVP LAG), no new content and crap rewards to keep anyone playing this for another 6-12 months as is.

Why, are you waiting for it to be released much sooner than that?

I used to think Blizzard's development process was slow.... then I took a ZOS to the knee...

leandro.800ub17_ESO

I dont know why is there a need to put VR16 since the CP is the way to go and get stronger for stronger content / mobs
Mobs can be Vr16 (Or Vr14 with some CP) )no problem and drops can be VR14 with better traits / bonus it would be easyer to remove ranks in the future

Sir_Xalvador

i agree with this post something needs to be done

wrathofrraath

I'm not leaving quite yet but a lot of my friends list has. I despise the CP gap, can't relate to anyone who's CP is above me anymore in terms of gear or damage, and we know the spawn points and mechanics of the daily activities so well that the dungeon "bosses" melt in under a minute every time. I'd go PVP or level an new alt or something but that would put me even further behind CP which makes me feel like I'm not contributing effectively or competitively in raids, which is my favorite part of the game. Thus here I am chugging XP pots that my guild crafts and grinding zombies to play an endless game of catch up. New content is just going to be a new grind spot that gives higher XP to fight over. Factions will literally wage wars in order to fight for their claim to this new spot.

ESO died months ago,

This is ESOTU

Attorneyatlawl

wrathofrraath wrote: »

I'm not leaving quite yet but a lot of my friends list has. I despise the CP gap, can't relate to anyone who's CP is above me anymore in terms of gear or damage, and we know the spawn points and mechanics of the daily activities so well that the dungeon "bosses" melt in under a minute every time. I'd go PVP or level an new alt or something but that would put me even further behind CP which makes me feel like I'm not contributing effectively or competitively in raids, which is my favorite part of the game. Thus here I am chugging XP pots that my guild crafts and grinding zombies to play an endless game of catch up. New content is just going to be a new grind spot that gives higher XP to fight over. Factions will literally wage wars in order to fight for their claim to this new spot.

ESO died months ago,

This is ESOTU

XP really needs to have parity across most everything you do in game. It is definitely silly that the only thing to do to earn strong xp right now is grind. Fix that by bringing raids, pvp, etc up to speed and it will help a lot on that whole problem...As far as comparing CP, in most games it just gets termed as tier 2, tier 5, tier eleven billion, gear. I don't agree that the existence of power gains being available is a problem. I do and have reiterated for months, however, feel that xp parity is a must.

The reason I came back to this thread tonight was that, given how strongly @seaber and @rune_relic voiced their information, I thought it would be prudent to go Re test and ensure I did, in fact, have the raw attribute scaling down correctly. I'll post the video of what I did to check, but here it goes. I was wrong. It indeed does scale as a percentage of your current resource pool. If you have 30000 stamina with zero champion points spent, it turns into around 44700. However, being percentage based means you won't gain that same jump on your health, for example, like I had thought either. It isn't a flat value. I don't know how or why my testing awhile back showed it as being 10 to 11 points as a flat value, but I have a feeling my character for that must have had around 25k stamina on pts back then.

I apologize for having that mechanic wrong. I do still have to say, though, that I don't think the passives themselves would ultimately be that over the top in a game with this much skill basis, and the overall power gain stays probably only a bit higher than I had quoted of around 20 percent recently, likely landing at around 25 or a bit more character wide. It's a lengthy system but with xp not being dependent on only grinding I'm ambivalent about tossing the baby out with the bathwater by making it irrelevant with nerfs immediately. I would agree that perhaps the flat stat percentage may need to be toned down but I think it is too early to say it must be or not, hinging especially on typical champion progression once xp is more even across pve and pvp activities on the whole. A catch up mechanism for the critical segment of the champion levels combined with that, like ZOS had mentioned was coming, may render any nerf unneeded.

Seaber

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I apologize for having that mechanic wrong. I do still have to say, though, that I don't think the passives themselves would ultimately be that over the top in a game with this much skill basis, and the overall power gain stays probably only a bit higher than I had Quoted of around 20 percent recently, likely landing at around 25 or a bit more character wide. It's a lengthy system but with xp not being dependent on only grinding I'm ambivalent about tkssi

~50% more hp and 25% reduction in damage doubles your effective health. The champion system gives you far more than 25% more overall power.

Attorneyatlawl

Seaber wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I apologize for having that mechanic wrong. I do still have to say, though, that I don't think the passives themselves would ultimately be that over the top in a game with this much skill basis, and the overall power gain stays probably only a bit higher than I had Quoted of around 20 percent recently, likely landing at around 25 or a bit more character wide. It's a lengthy system but with xp not being dependent on only grinding I'm ambivalent about tkssi

~50% more hp and 25% reduction in damage doubles your effective health. The champion system gives you far more than 25% more overall power.

Needless to say, you've given me a lot of food for thought. With it being percentage based (there is only a magic damage type set of passives, and no equivalent for physical, just to note), I will need to do a lot of number crunching and will reevaluate my stance once I've done so over the next day or so. It may be the case that a global scaling down of the systems effects would be smart. I don't think the system itself is inherently broken, but the scaling it totals up to may well be.

Vizier

It doesn't matter if the increases to stats was 200% much less the proposed 50%. I still thinks it's close to 25% but it doesn't bleeping matter. Play the game for any length of time and you close the gap fast. To act like theirs a ton of folks with no CP and others with 3600 CP is just not realistic. Nobody has 3600 CP and I doubt 1% of 1% has even 1000 right now.

The player base and their CP rankings is not static and newer gains are always significantly faster then veteran gains. It's a non-issue....if you play the game and expect (gasp) in an RPG you might have to play a bit to catch up. What's crazy about this whole thread is a notion that players aren't equal out of the box. WHY THE Hell play an RPG then? Makes NO sense.

All I can say is I hope ZOS sticks to their guns and doesn't give away the store merely because a few whiners feel like they are owed something they haven't earned.

Kefa

I'm pretty new to this game and enjoying it this far but I must say; the devs for this game have made some really strange design decisions.

Dru1076

The silence of Devs tells me all I need to know. Clearly this concern of casual players being left as eternally underpowered players in PVP is how things are meant to be. This is a real shame., because I cannot give money to people who ignore me...my cash is hard earned.and I wont waste it on people who won't talk to me. The most curious thing to me is why new players who cant even earn champion points are forced to go up against those with hundreds in non-vet.

The cp system can stay unchanged and the player gap will be meaningless if campaigns are set up around champion points. This seems like such a simple solution to the problem. The hard-core will still be grinding away, and the casuals could go up against casuals with similar champions points. How would this not address the problem? I don't understand why or how someone with less than 90 cp's is expected to have any hope against someone with 300+. I guess moving on to another game was the best move, but sincerely...if campaigns were setup around cp ranks, I would resub almost immediately. In the meantime, I should thank Zos for ignoring my posts because I am having a ball playing my new game, and if they had had responded I probably would still be using my precious game time in Tamriel.

Oh...new PVE content NOT linked to PVP would also bring me back. But campaigns based on cp ranks would see me return for a far longer term.

Seaber

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I apologize for having that mechanic wrong. I do still have to say, though, that I don't think the passives themselves would ultimately be that over the top in a game with this much skill basis, and the overall power gain stays probably only a bit higher than I had Quoted of around 20 percent recently, likely landing at around 25 or a bit more character wide. It's a lengthy system but with xp not being dependent on only grinding I'm ambivalent about tkssi

~50% more hp and 25% reduction in damage doubles your effective health. The champion system gives you far more than 25% more overall power.

Needless to say, you've given me a lot of food for thought. With it being percentage based (there is only a magic damage type set of passives, and no equivalent for physical, just to note), I will need to do a lot of number crunching and will reevaluate my stance once I've done so over the next day or so. It may be the case that a global scaling down of the systems effects would be smart. I don't think the system itself is inherently broken, but the scaling it totals up to may well be.

13% more armour == up to 10% reduction to phys dmg
25% reduced damage from crits
24% reduced damage from dots

75% increased armour and spell resist from equiped shields
25% hp regen
25% healing you initiate
15.8% increased healing recieved
25% increased effectiveness of healing pots
24% increased shield strength
Restore x hp when you are hit by a crit
Gain a shield when you block
Gain a shield when you use a potion



Biting jabs counts as a dot so it's possible for someone to have 50% more hp, 24% reduced damage from biting jabs, 10% reduced dmg and if the jabs crits then another 25% reduced damage.

Surprise attack isn't a dot so it can only be reduced by up to 10% and another 25% if it is a crit.

Wizzo91

Dru1076 wrote: »

The silence of Devs tells me all I need to know. Clearly this concern of casual players being left as eternally underpowered players in PVP is how things are meant to be. This is a real shame., because I cannot give money to people who ignore me...my cash is hard earned.and I wont waste it on people who won't talk to me. The most curious thing to me is why new players who cant even earn champion points are forced to go up against those with hundreds in non-vet.

The cp system can stay unchanged and the player gap will be meaningless if campaigns are set up around champion points. This seems like such a simple solution to the problem. The hard-core will still be grinding away, and the casuals could go up against casuals with similar champions points. How would this not address the problem? I don't understand why or how someone with less than 90 cp's is expected to have any hope against someone with 300+. I guess moving on to another game was the best move, but sincerely...if campaigns were setup around cp ranks, I would resub almost immediately. In the meantime, I should thank Zos for ignoring my posts because I am having a ball playing my new game, and if they had had responded I probably would still be using my precious game time in Tamriel.

Oh...new PVE content NOT linked to PVP would also bring me back. But campaigns based on cp ranks would see me return for a far longer term.

Your idea with settings campaigns around CPs is destructive to the community.. Guilds&Friends want to play together. There will always people that have more time to dump into a game and then a Guild won't be able to pvp together.


CPs should never have been implemented without a weekly/monthly cap. They will have to implement this "catch-up mechanic" very soon.

ThyIronFist

Robbmrp wrote: »

The day that ESO Dies will be when @ZOS announces they are pushing Imperial City to 2016.....

There's too many problems in the game(PVE & PVP LAG), no new content and crap rewards to keep anyone playing this for another 6-12 months as is.

^^^^

This short post explains it all.

We've all beta tested a console product, lets face it. CP system is one of the most *** things I've ever seen in a game, the way it works is just... ugh. Not gonna bother writing a long post, but if ZOS doesn't get their act together quick the game will die. PvP is already a big mess, lag, huge imbalances, no content, etc.

The silence from the devs on the PvP forums alone tells me enough, I always laugh when I watch the Friday twitch stream when they're all merrily laughing their arses off and pretending the game is in such a great state, which its not.

Tankqull

Wizzo91 wrote: »

Dru1076 wrote: »

The silence of Devs tells me all I need to know. Clearly this concern of casual players being left as eternally underpowered players in PVP is how things are meant to be. This is a real shame., because I cannot give money to people who ignore me...my cash is hard earned.and I wont waste it on people who won't talk to me. The most curious thing to me is why new players who cant even earn champion points are forced to go up against those with hundreds in non-vet.

The cp system can stay unchanged and the player gap will be meaningless if campaigns are set up around champion points. This seems like such a simple solution to the problem. The hard-core will still be grinding away, and the casuals could go up against casuals with similar champions points. How would this not address the problem? I don't understand why or how someone with less than 90 cp's is expected to have any hope against someone with 300+. I guess moving on to another game was the best move, but sincerely...if campaigns were setup around cp ranks, I would resub almost immediately. In the meantime, I should thank Zos for ignoring my posts because I am having a ball playing my new game, and if they had had responded I probably would still be using my precious game time in Tamriel.

Oh...new PVE content NOT linked to PVP would also bring me back. But campaigns based on cp ranks would see me return for a far longer term.

Your idea with settings campaigns around CPs is destructive to the community.. Guilds&Friends want to play together. There will always people that have more time to dump into a game and then a Guild won't be able to pvp together.


CPs should never have been implemented without a weekly/monthly cap. They will have to implement this "catch-up mechanic" very soon.

this can be easily circumvented by limiting them by CPs SPEND and blocking the CP window while beeing in Cyrodiil. that way anybody can chose in witch bracket they want to play by unspecing CPs. with lets say 250cp brakets, where you can enter any bracket aslong as you not bypass the max CPs of it allowing newbies to participate in populated brackets while the majority will be chosing a bracket following the gausian distribution where the casual will be determing the populated brackets...

ragespell

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

wrathofrraath wrote: »

I'm not leaving quite yet but a lot of my friends list has. I despise the CP gap, can't relate to anyone who's CP is above me anymore in terms of gear or damage, and we know the spawn points and mechanics of the daily activities so well that the dungeon "bosses" melt in under a minute every time. I'd go PVP or level an new alt or something but that would put me even further behind CP which makes me feel like I'm not contributing effectively or competitively in raids, which is my favorite part of the game. Thus here I am chugging XP pots that my guild crafts and grinding zombies to play an endless game of catch up. New content is just going to be a new grind spot that gives higher XP to fight over. Factions will literally wage wars in order to fight for their claim to this new spot.

ESO died months ago,

This is ESOTU

XP really needs to have parity across most everything you do in game. It is definitely silly that the only thing to do to earn strong xp right now is grind. Fix that by bringing raids, pvp, etc up to speed and it will help a lot on that whole problem...As far as comparing CP, in most games it just gets termed as tier 2, tier 5, tier eleven billion, gear. I don't agree that the existence of power gains being available is a problem. I do and have reiterated for months, however, feel that xp parity is a must.

The reason I came back to this thread tonight was that, given how strongly @seaber and @rune_relic voiced their information, I thought it would be prudent to go Re test and ensure I did, in fact, have the raw attribute scaling down correctly. I'll post the video of what I did to check, but here it goes. I was wrong. It indeed does scale as a percentage of your current resource pool. If you have 30000 stamina with zero champion points spent, it turns into around 44700. However, being percentage based means you won't gain that same jump on your health, for example, like I had thought either. It isn't a flat value. I don't know how or why my testing awhile back showed it as being 10 to 11 points as a flat value, but I have a feeling my character for that must have had around 25k stamina on pts back then.

I apologize for having that mechanic wrong. I do still have to say, though, that I don't think the passives themselves would ultimately be that over the top in a game with this much skill basis, and the overall power gain stays probably only a bit higher than I had quoted of around 20 percent recently, likely landing at around 25 or a bit more character wide. It's a lengthy system but with xp not being dependent on only grinding I'm ambivalent about tossing the baby out with the bathwater by making it irrelevant with nerfs immediately. I would agree that perhaps the flat stat percentage may need to be toned down but I think it is too early to say it must be or not, hinging especially on typical champion progression once xp is more even across pve and pvp activities on the whole. A catch up mechanism for the critical segment of the champion levels combined with that, like ZOS had mentioned was coming, may render any nerf unneeded.

So you were wrong, but you think you are still right? Neat logic

Furor

ragespell wrote: »

So you were wrong, but you think you are still right? Neat logic

It seems Attorney has achieved the wife level of logic.

Sallington

One of the worst parts of the CP system is that it discourages leveling alts. If, once you hit VR1 on one character, all XP for any level character contributed to CPs, that would be a good start. You should be rewarded for playing the game, not grinding on your Vr14 only.

wrathofrraath

You can say that people will level out after you reach 300 -600 all you want, but the people way further ahead of you wil always have a higher magicka, stamina, and health pool. If you are even 100 points behind your friends, guildmates, or any other player your stuck there unless they stop playing, there is no catching up.

MrGhosty

The idea of the champion system is a great one, but I think it is a mistake going for straight power increases. I would much rather see CP earnings going towards specializing a build or multiple builds as the CPs progress. Some straight up increases in power could still be in there, but maybe tie them to certain levels in the progression that everyone just gets when they hit that point.

Another idea that occurred to me as a possible solution would be to include some third ability morphs, maybe tie them to unlocking a morph and then you choose which skill actually morphs. It would require a lot of work so it obviously isn't a short term solution, but if these third morphs were placed at various points throughout the tree you could see some very interesting builds. Straight stat increases encourage extreme min maxxing, which means that some builds or playstyles just can't compete. This creates a fairly homogeneous environment that leads to staleness, players should be able to single spec or multi spec and remain competitive with each other (I don't mean perfectly equal, more a rock paper scissors thing with some choice flavored in).

The other option would be to separate our PvE and PvP characters and give each their own progressions and leave CPs out of the PvP progression tree. The PvP skills could then be perfectly balanced to their environment and the same goes for PvE skills. The PvP could then be fair and balanced and create a truly skill based competitive environment and PvE would be able to stack their power to destroy the PvE content with the only affected thing being the leaderboards which it would be easy enough to create a rating bracket and have multiple leaderboards based on the number of CPs you currently have 0-50, 50-100, etc.

Attorneyatlawl

Seaber wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I apologize for having that mechanic wrong. I do still have to say, though, that I don't think the passives themselves would ultimately be that over the top in a game with this much skill basis, and the overall power gain stays probably only a bit higher than I had Quoted of around 20 percent recently, likely landing at around 25 or a bit more character wide. It's a lengthy system but with xp not being dependent on only grinding I'm ambivalent about tkssi

~50% more hp and 25% reduction in damage doubles your effective health. The champion system gives you far more than 25% more overall power.

Needless to say, you've given me a lot of food for thought. With it being percentage based (there is only a magic damage type set of passives, and no equivalent for physical, just to note), I will need to do a lot of number crunching and will reevaluate my stance once I've done so over the next day or so. It may be the case that a global scaling down of the systems effects would be smart. I don't think the system itself is inherently broken, but the scaling it totals up to may well be.

13% more armour == up to 10% reduction to phys dmg
25% reduced damage from crits
24% reduced damage from dots

75% increased armour and spell resist from equiped shields
25% hp regen
25% healing you initiate
15.8% increased healing recieved
25% increased effectiveness of healing pots
24% increased shield strength
Restore x hp when you are hit by a crit
Gain a shield when you block
Gain a shield when you use a potion



Biting jabs counts as a dot so it's possible for someone to have 50% more hp, 24% reduced damage from biting jabs, 10% reduced dmg and if the jabs crits then another 25% reduced damage.

Surprise attack isn't a dot so it can only be reduced by up to 10% and another 25% if it is a crit.

The armor amounts aren't flat reductions like the magic and elemental damage type ones. Adding 15% armor will held around 3000 armor value at best based on a high armor build which is around 5.5-6% physical damage reduction. The elemental defender and hardy passives, unlike that, are flat percentages of damage reduction that go to 25% regardless of armor type, and have no physical equivalent. The one you listed as to armor rating has an equivalent called spell shield that works identically .

Plus, of course, every class has access to a great high-value, long-duration spell damage shield in the light armor line, but not a physical one. To balance it they would need to add a similar skill such as Harness Stamina hypothetically, and a champion passive such as Physical Defense. This isn't even to mention that boosting elemental and magical damage is split into two passives by damage type while stamina weapons are lumped into one passive at all.

Most of the passives you listed are extremely minor such as a 1200pt shield when blocking once every 10 seconds, which is a tiny fraction of a single attack and doesn't respect mitigation either. Same goes for the potion one but on a 45 second timer. The shield expert passive only affects the shield item on the active skill bar, so you gain at best around 1300-1400 resist and armor rating from it. The heal on being crit is tiny at a couple of hundred points, but can add up when being hit by a ton of dot's in pvpas it has no internal cool down .

ragespell wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

wrathofrraath wrote: »

I'm not leaving quite yet but a lot of my friends list has. I despise the CP gap, can't relate to anyone who's CP is above me anymore in terms of gear or damage, and we know the spawn points and mechanics of the daily activities so well that the dungeon "bosses" melt in under a minute every time. I'd go PVP or level an new alt or something but that would put me even further behind CP which makes me feel like I'm not contributing effectively or competitively in raids, which is my favorite part of the game. Thus here I am chugging XP pots that my guild crafts and grinding zombies to play an endless game of catch up. New content is just going to be a new grind spot that gives higher XP to fight over. Factions will literally wage wars in order to fight for their claim to this new spot.

ESO died months ago,

This is ESOTU

XP really needs to have parity across most everything you do in game. It is definitely silly that the only thing to do to earn strong xp right now is grind. Fix that by bringing raids, pvp, etc up to speed and it will help a lot on that whole problem...As far as comparing CP, in most games it just gets termed as tier 2, tier 5, tier eleven billion, gear. I don't agree that the existence of power gains being available is a problem. I do and have reiterated for months, however, feel that xp parity is a must.

The reason I came back to this thread tonight was that, given how strongly @seaber and @rune_relic voiced their information, I thought it would be prudent to go Re test and ensure I did, in fact, have the raw attribute scaling down correctly. I'll post the video of what I did to check, but here it goes. I was wrong. It indeed does scale as a percentage of your current resource pool. If you have 30000 stamina with zero champion points spent, it turns into around 44700. However, being percentage based means you won't gain that same jump on your health, for example, like I had thought either. It isn't a flat value. I don't know how or why my testing awhile back showed it as being 10 to 11 points as a flat value, but I have a feeling my character for that must have had around 25k stamina on pts back then.

I apologize for having that mechanic wrong. I do still have to say, though, that I don't think the passives themselves would ultimately be that over the top in a game with this much skill basis, and the overall power gain stays probably only a bit higher than I had quoted of around 20 percent recently, likely landing at around 25 or a bit more character wide. It's a lengthy system but with xp not being dependent on only grinding I'm ambivalent about tossing the baby out with the bathwater by making it irrelevant with nerfs immediately. I would agree that perhaps the flat stat percentage may need to be toned down but I think it is too early to say it must be or not, hinging especially on typical champion progression once xp is more even across pve and pvp activities on the whole. A catch up mechanism for the critical segment of the champion levels combined with that, like ZOS had mentioned was coming, may render any nerf unneeded.

So you were wrong, but you think you are still right? Neat logic

No. I was wrong about what the mechanic was. The mechanic results in somewhat higher power gain than I'd formed my initial opinions off of, however it doesn't change the actual opinion about the system itself. Read the statement in context.

k2blader

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Who gives a [snip] about BLOODY CHARTS!?!?!?!?!

It aint about the charts folks.... its about not being a HAMSTER EATING [snip] ON A WHEEL!!!!!

endless grind... regardless of competitive advantage .... IS NOT FUN

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Agree, especially when people start going off about 1000's of CPs, let alone 300 or whatever. I have 84 CPs at the moment and gain about 1 every other day or so. I know, I know, I should be "working harder" and grinding or doing boring PvE stuff more hours per day to "catch up." Meh. I can't and won't be doing that unless someone pays me to.

k2blader

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Can this be the day this thread dies? Please say yes. Has anyone seen Deltia these last 2 weeks? I'm concerned because I thought that the entire world would have returned their games by now leaving me as the Emperor of No One. It's almost as if this is hyperbole?! Say it ain't so. I'm sure once I get home my game will cease to work and I'll feel better.

Side note: I just started getting Champion Points. Can't wait to break the game further for those who can't see that 95% of their complaints simply boil down to them not being actually good at it.

Mmhmm, tell us when you've cured cancer too.

Seaber

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

The armor amounts aren't flat reductions like the magic and elemental damage type ones. Adding 15% armor will held around 3000 armor value at best based on a high armor build which is around 5.5-6% physical damage reduction. The elemental defender and hardy passives, unlike that, are flat percentages of damage reduction that go to 25% regardless of armor type, and have no physical equivalent. The one you listed as to armor rating has an equivalent called spell shield that works identically .

6% more mitigation from armour would mean that they were dealing 56% dmg and now 50% dmg which is ~10% reduction in damage.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

No. I was wrong about what the mechanic was. The mechanic results in somewhat higher power gain than I'd formed my initial opinions off of, however it doesn't change the actual opinion about the system itself. Read the statement in context.

The power gained from the champion system is far higher than the 25% you think it is.

25% increased damage
25% increased dmg from LAs and HAs
25% crit dmg
25% armour pen
12% crit
50% max stamina
ect

Just the 50% bonus health is far more than a 25% power increase

Attorneyatlawl

Seaber wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

The armor amounts aren't flat reductions like the magic and elemental damage type ones. Adding 15% armor will held around 3000 armor value at best based on a high armor build which is around 5.5-6% physical damage reduction. The elemental defender and hardy passives, unlike that, are flat percentages of damage reduction that go to 25% regardless of armor type, and have no physical equivalent. The one you listed as to armor rating has an equivalent called spell shield that works identically .

6% more mitigation from armour would mean that they were dealing 56% dmg and now 50% dmg which is ~10% reduction in damage.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

No. I was wrong about what the mechanic was. The mechanic results in somewhat higher power gain than I'd formed my initial opinions off of, however it doesn't change the actual opinion about the system itself. Read the statement in context.

The power gained from the champion system is far higher than the 25% you think it is.

25% increased damage
25% increased dmg from LAs and HAs
25% crit dmg
25% armour pen
12% crit
50% max stamina
ect

Just the 50% bonus health is far more than a 25% power increase

No. It's a 10% increase in your damage reduction as a relative amount, but it is only taking off around 5.5% of the actual damage being dealt to you. Meanwhile, you can get a full 25% off the damage being dealt to you, alongside the same resistance boost, for magical and elemental damage types. That is an enormous imbalance, especially once taken alongside the weaponless and classless requirements for Harness Magicka and Dampen Magicka. 50% health sounds like a big number, but really amounts to 8-12k HP depending on the build. That doesn't alone make a character more than anther 25% powerful by a long shot. Any single stat isn't that incredible of a difference maker for a complete build.

I think the first step remains, as I've said for months, to make all game activities have a fairly close level of XP parity. Grinding mobs should not be the only good source of champion xp. From there I think a wait and see approach is warranted after the catchup mechanism is implemented, and if things are too imbalanced game wide eventually, halve the stat gain from spending points to be a 24.5% total instead of 49%.

Attorneyatlawl

Just to address the list you made, with my comments in bold:

25% increased damage This is a big one, but requires two separate 100 point passives for spell builds. Physical builds get it easy only needing one passive (mighty) for that same effect.

25% increased dmg from LAs and HAs Light and heavy weaved attacks account for around 10-14% of singletarget damage (not aoe since you can only hit one target with them), so raising them by 25% only adds in the neighborhood of 3-4% damage to one target. Sounds big but isn't.

25% crit dig Only affects the critical portion, not the base hit amount. If you hit for 5200 damage and crit normally you hit for 50% more damage (60% on nightblades). That portion is increased, not the 5200. Taking that same hit with a 50% amplifier as typical, you would hit for 7800 without this passive, and ((2600 x 1.25) + 5200) = 8450 with the full one hundred points invested. Most builds carry a forty to fifty percent spell crit rate and fifty to sixty percent physical one for stamina. This totals to a gain of 8.33% on only critical hits, which are around half of your hits, for a total gain of about 4.166%. Another one that sounds enormous but isn't.

25% armour pen Will pen about 5000-6000 armor which is roughly 16% extra damage but only against raid tier mobs or extremely high armor players in full heavy with a buff such as immovable going. This decreases againt medium users and is minimal against light ones.

12% crit Easy enough, ends up being roughly 6% damage typically, but is obtained very early in the system with just champion rank 90 required (a new character on a fresh, unplayed account hits around champion rank 60 due to the 13 million XP required and twelve levels' worth of enlightenment automatically granted. This assumes a one week real life time span to play during which you would earn another several levels of enlightenment since it gives one every 24 hours .

Out of all of those, the most important ones like block cost reduction, one damage type (physical gets a free ride compared to spell users since they only need mighty, instead of both thamaturge and elemental expert, for the same effect ), and a maxed regeneration, are earned in full at champion rank 300, and well, as my chart has shown...



... you get most of that gain much earlier. By the time you get to rank 400-600 you've gotten the large majority of power there is to be gained from the system, when you crunch the math out like above .

Seaber

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Just to address the list you made, with my comments in bold:

1.25*1.04*1.04*1.16*1.06=1.66

Nice one

Severan

+1 Hope this leveling system gets redone soon.