The Day ESO Dies

SlayerTheDragon

The drugs at Zenimax must be truly awesome.

AzraelKrieg

DonoVDV wrote: »

The drugs at Zenimax must be truly awesome.

Surprised they let the Khajiit in the office anymore. He's clearly peddling skooma to the devs

firstdecan

Good post, and I completely agree.

I've been playing since beta, and stopped playing for a while because of the "elitism" in the game (please note I use that term loosely). I've been levelling up a new toon and have been having *some* fun with the game again (currently level 43).

The vast majority of the people who play this game will not care about the increase to VR16. They're simply going to keep doing the content they've been doing and they'll get to VR16 when they get there. There's been too many changes to level caps, how XP and VR ranks are earned, and the content you can play \ grind to get to those level caps for most people to care anymore. This is just a timewaster until something better comes out (like fallout 4).

The only people who care are going to be the vocal minority who are trying to make leaderboards in PvP and PvE, and they will quickly find they're basically arguing amongst themselves. You're an insular group, and the majority of players, the casuals who have 9-5 jobs and are still here, will simply keep farming \ fishing \ dungeoning at a leisurely pace. Anyone who had any real expectations from this game either gave them up or left.

ZoS keeps moving the goal posts with this game because of bugs, balance issues, and fundamental design issues, and it's at the point where most people who are still playing don't care. This is just another completely random decision by ZoS based upon whatever pseudo-science they think passes for market analysis. It's not a big thing, it's going to *** off the "professional gamers" who are enjoying their big fish in a small bowl status, but for 99% of the community that is still here the world will keep turning.

ZoS changed the game again. Whoopty Woo, surprise surprise. It'll get changed yet again when they further increase level cap, remove VR ranks, go completely f2p, or do yet another out of left field change to the game. It's inevitable. The development team does not have the skill to deliver on their vision, and they will keep chasing the dragon. The rest of us are just along for the ride.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Ok, here's my take on this.

First off thanks to @Deltia for the thread, and the comprehensive opening post.

Reading through the thread a sentiment seemed to come to the fore for a short while that I think needs addressing.

Someone, I can't recall who, said that Zeni needs to go talk to the Streamers.

No, it doesn't.

What percentage of the playerbase are major streamers? 5% maybe.

The same sentiment is often used with reference to PvPers and End-Game Raiders.

What percentage of the playerbase are PvPers? Well as an average for the MMORPG industry it is rarely above 20%.

What percentage of the playerbase are End-Game Raiders? Well, again as an industry average, it is rarely above 20%.

But the key here is what degree of crossover is there among these three groups? I'd honestly be surprised if all three groups combined made up more than 20-25% of the playerbase.

So why should Zeni go listen to and talk with them?

Is there some elitism assumed here; that these people know what is wrong with the game and how to fix it?

Well I hope not.

I can't think of one single MMORPG that has been improved in any way by listening to, for example, PvPers. MMORPGs are not the platform for PvP; the conflict between balancing PvP and PvE almost always leads to both areas of the game suffering and no one being happy.

No more strength should be given to the voice of any group over any other.

I'll be honest and say IC means nothing to me; I don't PvP in MMORPgs for the reasons I outlined above. If all the "new content" is is IC then there is no new content for me.

If I can avoid Cyrodil and IC totally then I will; if I can't I'll be in just long enough to pick up the Shards I need and then I'll be out never to return.

All The Best

TheBonesXXX

It's apparent this thread is starting to degrade and sway away from the concept of lateral progression vs vertical progression.

It's also apparent that some people do not know what happens after you hit V1 in Cyrodiil and that your superman buffs go away.

Common folks, the underlying issue here is vertical vs lateral progression, how vet ranks and champion points are vertical or laterally progressive in ESO as of now. Stay on topic and stop trying to hijack Deltia's rational and constructive concerns and the lifeblood of the game.

Cheers.

slipHAZARD

Hey guys I just wanted to say I created a thread discussing an alternative way of earning CP's. It's a little off topic from Deltia's post so I wanted to make a new thread. Anyways I'd like to hear your opinion so feel free to check it out.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/191704/what-if-cp-related-to-achievements-and-not-exp

NadiusMaximus

If they gave us three new zones, one in each realm, Imperial city, and thieves guild and dark brotherhood, all in one expansion. Then yah raise the cap.

If not, it's pointless.

Bromburak

James-Wayne wrote: »

I don't have a issue with the new VR levels as that is what MMO's do, new content, new level increase, new items to match, just makes sense to me

In a perfect world, but keep in my mind that the way you level in other MMOs are more flexible.
This is not the case in ESO because mandatory designs like Cadwells quest chains for example.

There was a reason why players did powerleveling in first versions of Craglorn.
It was the first sign that many players were unhappy with current content but it has been constantly ignored. Then craglorn was patched but the core problem for Veterans still exists.

From a design perspective it doesn't matter if player A agrees with player B leveling style. But you should ask yourself why there is a large group of players looking for a different way to level because obviously they are quite unhappy with the current implementation. This is exactly the problem in ESO because so many symptoms are being disabled but root of problems never have been solved.

AJTC5000

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

This is where I think they could really stand out. Instead of making it about levels, maybe as you unlock new areas and complete new tasks you could actually unlock a special skill, or skill line. It doesn't have to be about levels.

Now THIS would be something that would tickle me , encouraging people to sample the content properly and not just grind the whole way. Good suggestion!

AJTC5000

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

If they gave us three new zones, one in each realm, Imperial city, and thieves guild and dark brotherhood, all in one expansion. Then yah raise the cap.

If not, it's pointless.

They're probably expecting Orsinium and the Wrothgar area to be quite big. On the other hand, it's still not clear if we're getting Dark Brotherhood with this next update or not. Based on experience on levelling in PVP (which I know some people have found it relatively easy to do but for me it's one of the hardest things in the game), I honestly don't know if Imperial City is going to provide some sort of levelling curve.

AJTC5000

Another thing I was concerned about that strays a bit from the main topic, but is Dark Brotherhood going to be released as a Crowns-only DLC or not? If so, then that means some people are not going to be able to get it (due to mixed reasons, be they finance availability or whatever). So my point is, if the level changes are implemented for EVERYONE, and then the content supposedly providing the experience is only available to SOME people, then will some people have to resort to grinding, even after completing every quest ever? If the DB quests are anything like Skyrim's then I'm expecting to see some kind of repeatable killing quest mechanism, so I'm not sure.

P3ZZL3

Patch Notes should be fun today

Alcast

AJTC5000 wrote: »

Another thing I was concerned about that strays a bit from the main topic, but is Dark Brotherhood going to be released as a Crowns-only DLC or not? If so, then that means some people are not going to be able to get it (due to mixed reasons, be they finance availability or whatever). So my point is, if the level changes are implemented for EVERYONE, and then the content supposedly providing the experience is only available to SOME people, then will some people have to resort to grinding, even after completing every quest ever? If the DB quests are anything like Skyrim's then I'm expecting to see some kind of repeatable killing quest mechanism, so I'm not sure.

Grinding is fun, grinding is life

VincentBlanquin

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

SWTOR has a catch up mechanic because its been out so long now. ESO will also have something like that in a couple years or so. Also man Ive been playing SWTOR since beta and the forums are just like these. Nothing but complaints. I like how people here say swtor is this magical game with no flaws lol. Not according to the swtor forums it isnt.

you still dont understand the difference.

there are games, where you have possibility acquire great advantage very soon and dominating everything, but eso is ava game. You will have these people under your back everyday

in other games, there is instanced pvp and if you are not so strong you will met gods once a year for example, after matchmaking is restared probably.

if your pvp is totally unrestricted ava, you cant have so unbalanced things like CP system is now

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

SWTOR has a catch up mechanic because its been out so long now. ESO will also have something like that in a couple years or so. Also man Ive been playing SWTOR since beta and the forums are just like these. Nothing but complaints. I like how people here say swtor is this magical game with no flaws lol. Not according to the swtor forums it isnt.

you still dont understand the difference.

there are games, where you have possibility acquire great advantage very soon and dominating everything, but eso is ava game. You will have these people under your back everyday

in other games, there is instanced pvp and if you are not so strong you will met gods once a year for example, after matchmaking is restared probably.

if your pvp is totally unrestricted ava, you cant have so unbalanced things like CP system is now

Youve obviously never played SWTOR.

VincentBlanquin

Aneima wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

SWTOR has a catch up mechanic because its been out so long now. ESO will also have something like that in a couple years or so. Also man Ive been playing SWTOR since beta and the forums are just like these. Nothing but complaints. I like how people here say swtor is this magical game with no flaws lol. Not according to the swtor forums it isnt.

In a couple of years Eso people aren't going to wait that long for this game. Every game has people complaining on the forums but in all the mmos I've played eso's is the worst. When I first started playing over a year ago I remember the eso forums were so bad to the point that I didn't ever want to meet anybody from the forums ingame. Now the forums are even worse.

Now for flaws no game is flawless but Eso is king of flaws. Buggy launcher, more problems with game after it's patches, a crown store that sells useless unwanted items, load screens while moving in the same city, a champion point system that hurts the game more than it helps it, a monthly subscription that isn't even worth the subscription,a development team that wants to add more VR levels despite more than 50% of the player are against it,lack of content, buggy servers,broken promises,basically a game without vision,etc,etc,etc.

Swtor isn't the magical game of choice but it sure does beat Eso.

agree, i play neverwinter too. game is after level increase and overhaul. almost unplayable from many views, but forum is nowhere near of anger like this forum....

even battle james is more interesting than play a game )))

BatenKajtos

I really dislike the nowadays vertical progression. What's fun in this infinite periodic grind?
Horizontal progression is so much better imo. Add new content (gear, skills, places, etc.) that are different from what we already have, not just "higher level".
I agree that champion points are badly implemented. Players asked for less grind and ZOS gave them this ultimate grind system instead of removing veteran ranks.

smokes

Bromburak wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

I don't have a issue with the new VR levels as that is what MMO's do, new content, new level increase, new items to match, just makes sense to me

In a perfect world, but keep in my mind that the way you level in other MMOs are more flexible.
This is not the case in ESO because mandatory designs like Cadwells quest chains for example.

There was a reason why players did powerleveling in first versions of Craglorn.
It was the first sign that many players were unhappy with current content but it has been constantly ignored. Then craglorn was patched but the core problem for Veterans still exists.

From a design perspective it doesn't matter if player A agrees with player B leveling style. But you should ask yourself why there is a large group of players looking for a different way to level because obviously they are quite unhappy with the current implementation. This is exactly the problem in ESO because so many symptoms are being disabled but root of problems never have been solved.

exactly. cadwells is the underlying problem that needs fixing.

i cannot re-iterate that statement enough - the original endgame "vision" of VR levels was absolutely fine, the introduction of cadwells shortly before launch essentially added 5 expansions to the game.

if you consider a DLC or new zone which increases the VR level cap an expansion, the game launched with 5 expansions tacked on the end.

lower craglorn was an expansion
upper craglorn was an expansion
and now imperial city is an expansion

thats equivalent to 8 expansions in 1 year. WoW has been going 10 years and has only had 5 expansions in that time, each with increases to levels caps and each time it has made levelling to the previous cap easier.

3 minor expansions of 2VR levels each in the space of a year sounds like good pacing, right? that'd be craglorn x2 and IC - cadwells added 10 VR levels that should never have been added.

fix the root of the problem and rip all the bandaid fixes off - problem solved. it may require surgery, but it's a proper fix.

i said in an earlier post on this thread that it wouldn't suprise me if a top exec at zenimax was a grinder, but in retrospect, it makes me wonder if the guys at zenimax even had a clue that people would grind their way to VR10 within early access, or that the grinding mentality can be very damaging to a game that's not prepared for it.

their inability to deal with grinders effectively from day 1 has already cost ESO it's subscribtion model and threatens to cost it it's entire future.

Carter_DC

I, for one, like the CP system. Though it's not perfect, i think it's pretty damn good and could allow for interesting features item-wise when the vet levels are off the table.

The Champ system is up for 4 month, that is, for ppl who previously had a vr14 toon, 70+120 = 190 CP, if you're only doing 1 CP a day with illumination (which is really quick to obtain).
With illumination stacking up for 12 days, you can even be playing only on weekends and still be in the run.

I got 230 CP, that's not a lot but it's enough for me. some ppl got 600, 1000 ? Good for them. The CP system has been thought so the gap reduces over time, not the gap in CP, but the gap in perks it gives. And in a few month when most of us get 600+ CP, ppl how got much much more won't have such an advantage.

The only place it can stil f*ck up the game, is the low level PVP campaign.

A MMO is not meant to be played over a period of 2 month, expecting to be on the same stair as ppl who have played a year, that's just utter nonsense.

Giving a way to level the plane field CP wise is gonna be great for newcomers, but the one's that are gonna be scr*wed by it are the most of us... the one's that played everyday, not grinding, but trying to get that extra CP when possible.

The only thing i'd tweak about the CP system is just illumination. ppl should be given permanent illumination until they reach 70+ 1cp a day since 1.6. and then, no illumination at all.... Ppl that have more CP than this cap should not receive illumination either.

Better yet, a CP system à la EVE Online. Ppl are awarded 1 CP a day since 1.6, whether they play or not, grind xp or not.
vet14 players prior to 1.6 would have around 190CP, and newcomer would have less and never can close the gap in term of CP (but the perk gap closes itself with the game mechanics over time).

Rune_Relic

MissBizz wrote: »

Daenerys wrote: »

Thank you for speaking up @Deltia. Adding Veteran Ranks does not equal new content. We are starved for content.

What happened to everything from Quakecon 2014? Where is the Imperial City, Murkmire, Wrothgar, Spellcrafting, the PvP part of the Justice System, Dark Brotherhood, and Thieves Guild?

WHY have you gone back on your word to get rid of VRs and done a 180 to add more?! Why is that promised removal now part of your long term vision- along with Player Housing in the infamous realm of maybe someday?

Where are the Road Ahead articles? The last one I recall was from February- and that had devolved into something akin to The Road Behind. With key players from your team now gone, perhaps you can no longer provide this for you don’t know where you are going... and that is a shame.

I want this game to succeed, but doing the exact opposite of what was promised is not the way to instill confidence.

@Daenerys The raising of the level cap will happen at the same time as Imperial City release.

Anyways..
I don't mind at all that VR16 is coming, I actually like it. Although, I'm also a player that is about to turn VR14 that has played since practically launch and still has 2 full Caldwell Gold zones to complete, and all of Craglorn.. so contrary to popular belief, there is enough content to reach current max. I like the idea of levels and it feels like I have something more to work towards. CP just seems like a .001% blip in the background, where levels take time and effort to receive. As mentioned, why the increase on level cap? Because veteran levels are tightly coupled with itemization. Do you want new shiny sets that come with that new content? Maybe some stronger more powerful sets? Well they will be VR16, as that is how the itemization works.

As for the championship system, as @Elijah_Crow mentioned, ZOS has mentioned a catch-up mechanic. From the tidbit I heard, I recall it being something along the lines of the beginning CP being much easier to get. Now, the thing is, who decides how big of a gap is allowed to be there?

My question @Deltia, is if you would be okay waiting for a catch-up mechanic? If not, why would you not voice your opinion until it is "too late"? Do you believe ZOS would be able to implement it within their current timeframe for Update 7? I don't think that's possible. When do you believe this catch-up mechanic is needed? Right now? What would you consider an acceptable gap? 100CP? 300CP?

Why must.... new gear = V16 ?
Whats wrong with new gear = V14 ?
Its only a problem if you have identical gear that you want to make more powerful and if its identical its not needed.

Lets says IC starting area has been scaled to be easier than IC ending area.
So they have added V15 and V16 gear to cater for this increase in difficulty.
Question...why did they have to increase the difficulty beyond the requirement of V14 gear ?
Who chose to scale it 16/14 harder ?
Why should end content staring areas be easier than the ending areas for capped players?
This is the problem ZOS simply cant get their head around.
The levelling area is 1-50....beyond 50 should be 1 level.. 50+

No one forced them to do this.
The only reason it exists in my opinion is that it has been in the works for SO LONG....it is a relic of the old veteran system where v15 and v16 was envisioned long before champion removal.
I dread what Vet levels are associated with all the other content that has been "in the works" for months.

What happens when we have to grind out to Vet 32 to cater for the rest of Tamriel and how long will that take for new players and ALTS ?

Cherryblossom

On the basis that VR were going, I've not been putting a great deal of effort into leveling my current VETs to VR14. Now though I have no other option but to join the grind for VR Levels. I feel let down and lied to....

With regards to CP, from conception I have said this would create a two tier system that new players can never catch up. It's currently impossible for new players to catch up. I have friends who have joined in recent months, whom I'm leveling with, but me with 100+ CP am significantly stronger and more survivable than they are.

Even with the idea of only being able to earn 100 CP a season still does not give an new/casual Player much chance of catching up as time goes by!

@Deltia thank you for all the guides, they really help some of us Noobs.

Aiden_Dark

OnThaLoose wrote: »

Here's a solution.... Disable CP in PvP. Only have them used in PvE. Problem solved.

You know what? I play casually and still don't have a single CP point to my name (highest character at 44 currently), but I'm not against the CP system because I think some players need the carrot to keep playing and others should be rewarded for their time and effort... and yes, even grinding counts. Like it or not, that's the player choice and we all not have to agree to their methods... some players grind mobs endlessly in a cave and others like to grind PvP, dungeons or trials; none is more valid than the other. Still...

I think the simplest solution is sometimes the better option... and I think you nailed it with yours

Just leave the CP system as a progression system in PvE only and leave the PvP without it to make it based entirely on skill and strategy so that those players that need to wave their e-p33n in multiplayer can have their way also!

ZOS, get to it! This doesn't require too much time to implement and everybody wins!

tist

You really only need 150-200 CP to be just as effective as someone with 500. The talents get heavily overcharged after 20 or so points so its not like people can just pump everything into one damage line.

Aiden_Dark

Seaber wrote: »

OnThaLoose wrote: »

Here's a solution.... Disable CP in PvP. Only have them used in PvE. Problem solved.

no because nobody wants them in pve as they ruin the leaderboards

It can be disabled in ALL competitive team-based multiplayer modes (i.e., PvP, Trials, etc.) to allow for a fair and balanced competition... just enable it for single PvE quests lines and such. This is the smartest and most refreshingly simple idea that I have read in all this thread

*Edited to clarify multiplayer modes.

Aiden_Dark

hiyde wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

...

...and believe that people with no job...

...people with no life that grind 24/7...

...which would take a sane person with a job and a life...

...no new player or anyone with a life and responsibilities can possibly attain.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

I, for one, am sick and tired of the words "no life" being ascribed to anyone who is able to play the game for significant amounts of time. (and often said by people who play the game for significant amounts of time lol)

What people choose to do with their free time is their business. Labeling anyone with more time to play the game than you as someone with 'no life / no job' just comes across as jealousy and unnecessary rudeness/bullying.

Perhaps those with lots of time to play simply like devoting their free time to video gaming?
Perhaps those with lots of time to play have significant disabilities that prevent them from doing normal things?
Perhaps those with lots of time to play do so as an escape from real life stresses?

Somehow, these people are able to pay for the game, an internet connection, electricity and a roof over their heads.

This chain is full of "no life" slams and it does nothing to further a (very valid) argument about game balance.

(I say this as someone with one VR14 character and <100 champ points -and- and someone who would like to see catch-up mechanics)...

...but as soon as I read the words "no life" in a reply, the person saying it loses all credibility with me.

There's absolutely no need to repeatedly slam others with random insults as part of a discussion like this...unless it's just an excuse to tear down others?

In addition, those 'no-lifers' tend to be the most helpful and available people, most active PvE/PvP/traders and most like to be great members/officers to help guilds function well.

The CP gap is a very valid issue and should be addressed. I think that point can be made without denigrating players based on how many hours they have available to play.

I completely agree with your point. There's no need to berate others for their playing style. I wish I could play all day and night, but, you know... wife and job. And this is coming from one of those "low level players" that are supposed to catch up or something...

Hogzknuckle

Disagree, like it as is. I play it for fun and it is fun. Although enchanting could use some tweaking.

Hogzknuckle

Oh an if you don't like the Champion system in PVP or trials or whatever, why not just ask them to create a separate zone, category or whatever for you with CP disabled and the rest of us can go on, full CP and all.

drogon1

Agree with Deltia here.

I love the account-wide progression system that the Champion system offers, but am worried of serious imbalances that PvE CP grinding will make in Cyrodiil.

On a side note, I am also not a fan that only vet grinding gives CP, because I love and play the majority of my ESO time in the non-vet campaign (thereby gaining no CP - I have a little over 90 CP total - and have been playing off and on since launch). (I have 7 low level vets as I found vet level grinding to not be my cup of tea.)

The alliance war rank system already provides "imbalances" in Cyro as high ranks will have available abilities that provide advantages over low ranks (e.g., vigor). These types of imbalances seem good for the PvP game, as they give PvPers goals to achieve via PvP.

Champion system "imbalances" however are not obtained from PvP, but through "zombie grinding," as Deltia calls it. I have not looked at the math behind it, but if too significant then CP imbalances should be mitigated in ESO, even if only in Cyrodiil.

Cherryblossom

@Deltia On a side note, if you want to encourage more discussion you really should change the title so it reflects the nature of the current discussion.

"The Day ESO Dies" to me sounds like your normal run of the mill flamming troll post, I only opened as I sometimes find them amusing!

May be "Open letter to ZOS, regarding upcoming changes and Champion Points"

ZOS_RichLambert

I've been lurking here in this thread since Friday. Just wanted folks to know its not being ignored.

Cherryblossom

The simple fix for Vet levels would be to call it what it is!

Level 66