The Day ESO Dies

slipHAZARD

Bromburak wrote: »

slipHAZARD wrote: »

They can't go "indie" or "merge" because ZoS is owned by ZeniMax Media.

It doesn't matter how you want to turn or name it, you need to be financial stable or you fail like many others before, very simple.

Yes that is very simple but what does that have to do with anything you've posted previously? ZoS is financially stable (in terms) because they are owned by Zenimax Media which is very much like Activision or EA but on a smaller level. They don't have a strong portfolio, they can't go indie or merge. ZoS pretty much lives and dies by ESO.

darthbelanb14_ESO

And this is why I continue to play STO, and SWTOR, and not ESO.

spoqster

Sithisvoid wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with VR16 or Champion points. MMO's raise level cap. Champion points keep people playing the game. Plus what kind of backlash would erupt if they removed them? The people who spent hour upon hour grinding will suddenly leave the mobs and return the the forum in Frankenstein mob form.

Vertical progression is just very bad game design for a multiplayer game. The fact that other games do it, doesn't make it better.

Just imagine playing basketball with a magic ball that "learns" how to find the basket, and hits with a higher probability every throw, without you as a player having to get better at all. Who'd want to play with you after a weeks?

The more time you spend in a game, the better it should make you as a player. It shouldn't make your character better. That's how games like Counter-Strike and sports in general are so immensely popular.

Good multiplayer games add horizontal progression systems, which award you more versatility and options as you develop your character. That's what skills in ESO essentially are, a horizontal progression system. As you gain skill points you have more skills to choose from, but you can only use 12 at a time and they don't get more powerful. You just have more options to customize your build and make it fit better with your playstyle - just as basketball players have the choice between a thousand types of shoes, so they can pick whichever fits them best - without gaining an absolute competitive advantage.

I log on to play the game for a few hours to relax and have fun. I get lost in PVP for 10 hours, because the gameplay sucks me in. I practice to get better, to improve my skill. But if a game forces me to grind content for xp or gear, I end up loathing the content, rather than enjoying it. If I get the feeling I can't become emperor, because I can never play as much as a player who does not have a job, I lose interest in PVP. If I get the feeling that I can't catch up with high CP players, I end up quitting the game.


A good game has no vertical progression, it sucks players in because of fun gameplay. Vertical progression is simply a means to trick players into playing a game that is not good enough to keep players engaged otherwise.

Bromburak

slipHAZARD wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

slipHAZARD wrote: »

They can't go "indie" or "merge" because ZoS is owned by ZeniMax Media.

It doesn't matter how you want to turn or name it, you need to be financial stable or you fail like many others before, very simple.

Yes that is very simple but what does that have to do with anything you've posted previously? ZoS is financially stable because they are owned by Zenimax Media which is very much like Activision or EA but on a smaller level.

Because you are still missing the point , on a smaller level several companies failed because they didn't have the budget to move on. Most of them never have been stable enough because of miscalculation and questionable concepts from investor perspective.

It doesnt matter how creative or innovative a game sounds like for fans and gamers in theories, if you cannot pay the production bills and convince your investors your vision will fail, end of story.
A holding like ZeniMax Media didn't fail because they did not get above themself.

This industry has a lot of megalomaniacs that think success is a naturally thing but its not.
Thats why most of the small companies doesn't exist anymore including their visions and staff.

slipHAZARD

Bromburak wrote: »

slipHAZARD wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

slipHAZARD wrote: »

They can't go "indie" or "merge" because ZoS is owned by ZeniMax Media.

It doesn't matter how you want to turn or name it, you need to be financial stable or you fail like many others before, very simple.

Yes that is very simple but what does that have to do with anything you've posted previously? ZoS is financially stable because they are owned by Zenimax Media which is very much like Activision or EA but on a smaller level.

Because you are still missing the point , on a smaller level most development companies failed because they didn't have the budget to move on. Most of them never have been stable enough because of miscalculation and questionable concepts from investor perspective.

It doesnt matter how creative or innovative a game sounds like for fans and gamers in theories, if you cannot pay the production bills and convince your investors your vision will fail. A holding like ZeniMax Media didn't fail because they did not get above themself like many other "megalomaniacs" that think revenue is easy to make and something naturally in this industry ...

lol dude if I'm still missing the point it's because you're changing it with every post. Which is now even way more off topic for this thread. So I'll bow out gracefully

TheBonesXXX

Good Stuff @Deltia and Friends,

My two cents,

Veteran Levels could easily be saved if it was not an extra 13 levels and its dynamic where consistent with true lateral progression. I feel a character and a gear stat squish would be significant enough close the gap between the veteran levels and if ESO maintains "end game" via unique gear-sets complete with art and rendering, that would be good enough definitely a damn good start.

End game is two things, gear and story telling, there is an absolute must for you, ZOS, to create a ceiling on vertical character progression and expand laterally. There is only so many ways a character can get powerful on the up hill climb, the mountain for this type of player should have been reached the day characters beat the "Bad guy" and fulfill the hero story (not spoiling the game). I believe Deltia addressed this with his own words.

Beating the bad guy and being the hero is literally the pinnacle of all story telling in any post-flood myth in human society, it is relevant to ESO because lateral progression should have began here the day a player stepped into Veteran zones. I do not feel the need to punish players who are not interested in a story arch either, but the other problem Deltia has pointed out is Champ Points.

If anyone played the beta which allowed the Champion system and they did not think about its long term effects, then they got distracted. I am all for the champion points, I am not all for 3600 points of them. The reason being is that lateral progression should be a culmination of gear and in ESO's case the champ system.

My proposal, link the two together. Make it so the DLC packs will have future content available as lateral progression in the form of gear and story telling, however do not let the Champ Points exceed the power of the gear. Then you can keep the vet ranks and not worry about a brand new system; rather just tweaking your current system.

This works because it serves as a barrier for everyone who is brand new and behind the power grind and everyone who is current because it does not limit character progression, it does slow down max character progression for the current set Veteran Rank. This allots time for you, ZOS to come up with creative and meaningful content and a well thought out plan because now you control the "Math", your algorithms are the most important part of the picture coding side as been stated by many before; you absolutely have to control it.

This proposal also allows you to deliver meaningful content and show us your mastery in story crafting, telling, visual arts, and other creative works of content. Nirn is a massive and huge planet, plenty capable of future and impactful content and allows your single player games to go into the other continents via ESO being it's prequel.

Regards,

TheBonesXXX (pc) / n1xx10nx (x1)

smokes

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

The problem here is and has always been the catering to the zombie treadmill of grind-to-win destroying fair competition and the ability for new players to EVER experience that, or catch up.

100% this

what makes me laugh and cry at the same time is that if ESO had launched without cadwells silver and gold, a max level of level 50 and not introduced VR levels until craglorn, the game would still be sub based, CP would never have been intoduced and it would be all sunshine and butterflies.

cadwells silver and gold giving level progression is the root of the problem and always has been. it was supposed to be there for the story, not the power gains. (skyshards aren't really power gains, they just open up more flexibility to your character, which is good)

honestly, i think zenimax need to take a sledgehammer and smash cadwells into dust:

rollback players to VR 4. (essentially removing level increases for cadwells S+G)
remove champion points or cap them at 100
release imperial city and increase VR to VR6. increase CP cap to 150 if not removed.

rolling back players:
VR1's would be reverted to level 50, VR2=VR1, VR3=VR2, VR4=VR3, VR5=VR4 anyone above VR5 would get a very large bountiful goods package, depending on their level, containing ingredients equivalent to all gear, materials and consumables they had in their bank, bags and equipped on their character/characters (allowing players to re-craft all gear and food/pots/etc), as well as a generous offering of gold. anything else that couldn't be re-crafted would have to be replaced with a scaled down version.
cp if not removed would be "saved" for players above the cap, so when the cap is raised again, they regain their previously earned CP.

how this would affect cadwells silver and gold:
VR XP gain would be removed from any quest, mob or action taken while under the guise of another faction - this could be done via buff applied in opposing factions zones. (if you can code a scroll to give XP, you can code this).
Zones would have to scale to VR level - in order to keep the content relevant after VR had increased through further content patches. (which i understand DLC is supposed to be capable of anyway)

DLC then acts like mini expansions and pushes the endgame up a tier - increasing the VR cap and CP cap (if CP still implemented)

the VR system is not the problem, it's the extra 10 VR levels bolted onto the cadwells quests that are the problem.

CP itself is like the original WoW talents system, except instead of levelling to 60 (as in vanilla wow) you have to level to 3600, but to just get the combat bonuses, you would need probably 1200-ish (not done the maths). after that it's all non combat bonuses or ones that do not affect your gear/spec/playstyle.

so yea.... in summary.

VR levels. remove the 10 VR levels for cadwells. leave the rest in place, roll people back accordingly.
CP levels. cap them, remove them, or remove all combat bonuses from them.

what makes me really sad, is that cadwells was implemented on request from closed beta players and was awkwardly implemented in the last few weeks before launch. whoever made the decision to implement that content that late in development and apply those 10VR levels needs to take responsibility for that decision and admit it was a huge mistake. the game would've been better off launching without them and patching them in later without VR levels (as additional, optional content).

we can't turn back time, but we can roll back systems.

it's the only way, as from what i can tell, the original endgame "vision" before VR levels 1-10 were added through cadwells, was on target to be a long term progression system (which is why itemisation is linked to VR levels) - cadwells giving VR1-10 screwed it, the moment grinders hit VR10 on day 4 of early access they had exposed the problem, before the game had officially launched. it was posted about on the forums within days as soon as questers started hitting the VR grind, players started leaving in their droves as the imbalance became more and more pronounced over the coming weeks, CP just exacerbated the problem.

the original issue has been all but ignored as i would imagine someone "high up" in ZoS management made the decision to patch in cadwells before launch and is too stubborn to admit they made a mistake, as every effort has been made to work around the problem rather then address it.

roll it back, roll it all back. continue with the current trajectory and ESO will die a slow painful death. go back to the original endgame design before it's too late, although tbh, it might be too late already. they've had a year to address this and we're seemingly no closer to a solution for the power gap, or details of what their revised "vision" for endgame is, as the current system is simply unnaceptable, even with PVP battle levelling systems to bring players on par.

the very need for battle levelling systems should highlight the power gap as an issue and the cadwells 10VR levels is the root cause of it. gear can be bought/crafted/earned/looted. VR levels and CP takes and age to earn through conventional means, but can be easily taken advantage of by endless grinding - which allows the grinders to gain a massive advantage over everyone else. it's time to sort it

tbh i'd rather see imperial city postponed for 6 months and have endgame sorted properly than release it now and increase VR to 16. xp catch up systems are more bandaids to the original problem. cadwells.

CADWELLS is the underlying issue.
CP is the bandaid fix to that issue but is also broken because it's not sensibly capped.

i can only assume that one of the senior managers at zenimax is a grinder

pWn3d_1337

I also think that Cadwells (silver/gold) beeing mandatory is the problem.

Currently: 1~V2 Your Factions zones + coldharbour
V2-V12: Cadwells silver and gold
V12-V14: Grinding
V14: Endgame, solo content: none (except CP grind). Doing quests you missed out doens't give you much except skill point quests, but you don't even need them all when you have multiple chars, 1Crafter is enough.

How I think it should be:
1-(Max Level): Your zones+coldharbour
Max Level: play endgame, do cadwells gold/silver quests parallel to trials/dungeons/PvP if you want, without pressure to rush it because you are already max level and don't need to level further to enjoy PvP/Trials.

andrantos

I am more bothered by the VR increase than any possible issues regarding CP gain, long-term players and new players and what not.

For one, they had plans in replace to completely rid the game of VR. These plans were presented quite openly to the player base. They have successfully delivered the CP system which I do feel is a more appropriate "Veteran" progression system. However, they still have yet to remove VR which appeared to be sidelined in an effort to launch B2P on PC and the follow-up console releases - which is all understandable.

However, because of all the effort required to pull of B2P and all the new SKUs, PC users have had in some ways been neglected outside of crown store updates. Once again, understandable. It's easy to add new wares to the crown store than it is to design, develop and qa new content and features - especially in the face of launching the game on two new platforms.

I am very happy to see that Update 7 will feature new content, as I think that is very important for how many players perceive the health of the game and its future. I also appreciate the honesty and ZOS' continued improved ability to handle and respond to feedback/criticism from the player base.

However, I can't help but wonder, if VR removal is a long-term goal, then when will it every be a viable goal? If ranks were added to Update 7 to give players some form of additional "progression" then is it reasonable to expect that new ranks will be added with significant content updates in the future? Eventually, VR will be so entwined with the end-game content and progression that I have a hard time to imagine dev resources will be devoted to taking it out all together.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

15 pages of crying. I have a level 43 with zero champion points and melt veterans in PVP every day. I'm also smart enough to know that picking a 1 on 1 fight with a VR14 is a bad idea. The only thing imbalanced about ESO is that guys like Deltia use 1438 add ons and think that means they are good. Stop crying and move to the level playing field on consoles. If you're good you can get the top 2% reward in veteran PVP with a non veteran character. I know because I did it.

newtinmpls

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

The solution is incredibly simple, as so many have stated: Implement tiered limits to how many CP can be gained in a given period LIKE EVERY OTHER MMO HAS SEASONS AND TIER LIMITS, and let the 1% grinders QQ about their unfair advantage for living an unhealthy life being taken away. More important you keep the 99% of legit players which hopefully the suits are beginning to realize.

In addition, make CP gain faster the further from the current cap you are. .

I like your ideas, but I'd also add a third one; make the alledgedly diminishing returns on CP diminish faster. As it is now, your first point adds a percent of something, then the next bunch add something like 0.6.

I'd like to see something like start at 1, then drop to .5, then drop to .2, then eventually to .1

This in combination with a boost depending on how far below "max" you are, AND a seasonal max (related to total max, so that if you are way low you can exceed it) should make this more of a catch-up and less of a leave-everyone-in-the-dust.

Maybe.

Hiero_Glyph

As a console player I just want a way to catch up to the PC transfers. I still don't know how a console delay equates to a PC incentive but now is the time to correct that mistake. For all the talk about having a CP gap to overcome, imagine buying a game at release and needing to overcome a vr14 with 300+ CP as a vr1 or less. ZoS owes it to console players to give us a way to close that gap.

Personofsecrets

smokes wrote: »

i can only assume that one of the senior managers at zenimax is a grinder

we found out recently that add on utility has been greatly limited due to a mere couple of devs. Their anti-add on excuse sounded to be based in the idea of more immersion, as if players are forced to use addons.

Based on that, and Eric Wroebel's clueless comment about tanking, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the game is made worse for the many because of the bizarre few.

BigInGlenumbra

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

15 pages of crying. I have a level 43 with zero champion points and melt veterans in PVP every day. I'm also smart enough to know that picking a 1 on 1 fight with a VR14 is a bad idea. The only thing imbalanced about ESO is that guys like Deltia use 1438 add ons and think that means they are good. Stop crying and move to the level playing field on consoles. If you're good you can get the top 2% reward in veteran PVP with a non veteran character. I know because I did it.

15 pages of crying is quite a bad sign, mate.

People should cry when they see a system that so many don't like.

Also, you never refuted any of the points made here. You didn't even read them. That said, don't post when you don't even know the arguments you're responding to.

Kupoking

Crying agrument again. *sigh*. you would do great in a speech and debate comptition

Lalaeith

I don't have anything new to say, but I want to add another voice to the discussion here.

I read @Deltia's OP and also watched the video and I completly agree. I spent a significant amount of my time in this game since it was released. Currently I am actively playing one VR14, another toon at VR4 and a third toon who is still leveling. It is not possible for me to spend more time playing ESO (both because I have commitments and because I have other things I like to do) and while I do think that people who spend much more time in this game should have some advantages, I think after some point the main part of that should just be practice and skill (and maybe getting their hands on sets that take ages to farm) and not a number of champion points that I will never be able to catch up to.

I am not a fan of grinding mobs because I am not entertained doing that and after all entertainment is what I play the game for. But when I'm online I'm doing activities that give xp, so I feel like that should put me in a position where with enough skill I am able to compete and get the feeling that I achieved something in the game.

So that's why I am very much in favour of a catch up mechanic like the one @Gidorick suggersted.Currently I am enlighted all of the time. Doesn't feel like that helps me catch up anything.

I hope the devs read this thread and draw the right conclusions. After all I love this game and the people I'm playing it with and I want it to be entertaining and fun and not frustrating.

Nicator

I agree 100% with OP.

If this hit servers, It's maybe time to look for another MMO sadly

JamilaRaj

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

15 pages of crying. I have a level 43 with zero champion points and melt veterans in PVP every day.

You pretty much prove the point though; console "veterans", aside from mostly having no clue how to play the game in the first place, have few if any CPs.
But don't worry, XP/CP scrolls are coming, and even they know how to use the cash shop.

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm also smart enough to know that picking a 1 on 1 fight with a VR14 is a bad idea. The only thing imbalanced about ESO is that guys like Deltia use 1438 add ons and think that means they are good. Stop crying and move to the level playing field on consoles. If you're good you can get the top 2% reward in veteran PVP with a non veteran character. I know because I did it.

Yes, we too know how to farm APs.

newtinmpls

Personofsecrets wrote: »

we found out recently that add on utility has been greatly limited due to a mere couple of devs.

Based on that, and Eric Wroebel's clueless comment about tanking, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the game is made worse for the many because of the bizarre few.

I would be very interested to hear mroe about Eric Wroebel's comments on tanking. Can anyone tell me where to find them?

As for the dev's likely not understanding the player's attitude toward the game; this is not a surprise (I had to stop watching the podcast when it became glaringly obvious that the two ladies who host it do not play ESO and don't really understand it).

As for limiting addons; has ZoS somehow forgotten that they are related to Bethesda - whose game success (and I mean that in the sense of succe$$) is partly due to the fact that folks love the games enough to add mods. The fact that ESO with it's addon-unfriendly atmosphere is attracting modders is a good thing for the game (and the companies) longevity, not a bad thing.

smokes

Soulshine wrote: »

In fact at this point the "skill ship" for this game is so far out to sea there is no way to get it back to shore, short of a total rollback or complete system overhaul yet again. You are meantime just going to have to learn to sail without the usual compass and follow the stars... literally this time... since the constellations and the amount of points you throw into them are indeed all that count in this game, at least if you are talking about landing with both feet on the winning side of anything.

i'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks a rollback is necessary

skillastat

I always thought that CP system was a way to have diversity in builds but being able to have every star maxed is wrong. Everyone should have a maximum of like 1200 CP so you keep that diversity in builds.

AllPlayAndNoWork

SC0TY999 wrote: »

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

Have to be honest here. this was 14 pages of hard work reading through it all.

• As far as I can tell, @Deltia has summed up what many have been saying for a long time.
• ZOS have been ignoring all those people for a long time
• The "Nay sayers" back then are now being proved right
• @Deltia decides to post something as, basically, his lively-hood is being threatened (bad ZOS choices = no players = no followers)
• ZOS are not complete idiots. When there largest streamer and publicity channel makes a complaint, they listen
• We now enter a time of damage limitation where in reality, what they release will never be good enough
• There is little to no chance of them fixing the core issues due to them being ingrained in the game

For most people who just play the game for the sake of lore, for role playing, for general immersion in the PVE side none of this really makes any difference to them.

For the min/maxers our there, sure, there's a large cost in terms of refitting your Toon, but then, it's not as though those people are short of gold anyhows.

For the PVE Trialists, the CP's make a hell of a difference in terms of burning down/through the Trials. As mentioned, there are Guilds who expect a certain amount of CP's. Well, these guys do sit in the min/max environment.

As for PVP, keep the v16 and remove usage of CP's. You are removing the buffs from PVP in PVE - so no reason why it can't be done the other way round. By having the 2 separate tables you can then nerf/buff skills separately based on the community.

@ZOS_GinaBruno / @ZOS_RichLambert / @ZOS in General - I would strongly suggest you folks put together an emergancy ESO Live discussion this coming Friday and speak to the community and let them know what's going on and how you guys feel about these reactions. Because quite frankly, if people continue to get frustrated and ignored and leave, well, more of you are likely to consider.....other options....

Very nicely put!

Unfortunately for me, it's too little too late I've already quit the game and will not be returning

But for the rest of ZOS's player base (what's left that is) ZOS need to start listening to the community they've been ignored for far too long and as a result the game is in a huge mess!

oy... you bummer, where you off next then ????
Gloria Victis is about as an Indie PvP game.......

Sord

At some level those that have been playing longer should have an edge over someone who just reached max level but the way they have the points distributed now it is way to much of a gap/advantage. The only thing I think that would really be a good is if they actually reduced the max bonus on each ability by cutting it in half and keep the same current point system in place. This way those that grind it out will have some edge but it still allows the fact of plain old skill to remain a factor because 12.5% for 400 points well isn't that huge of a gap vs 25%.

Concerning passives, if the max number of points is 400 per constellation then the 4 passives should be further distributed apart say 30-100-200-350. instead of the 10-30-75-125 what is there to reach for after 125. This would further reduce the power in-balance.

As a more casual gamer these days who loves PVP but haven't PVPed because I am not max level yet because I hate the grind (which hopefully the bonus to vet xp combined with exp potions). Hopefully I will be able to get to max level now (currently only vr8, vr4, vr4), I am also always max enlightened which is nice but also sucks because it reminds me that I am always behind. I have been playing since beta so I am no stranger to the this game and I keep up on the games current events. I just hope they can find a way to balance the CP system a little more as it is a great way to have something to get even after max level.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

I don't farm anything. Most of my points come from repairing walls, healing others and fighting wherever the biggest fight is.

And yes ... most of you are crying. I'm not debating anything. I'm just pointing out that many of you are complaining about something that isn't even real. If you actually know how to PVP then this "disparity" is negligible. If anything the people who have spent thousands of hours in the game should be more over powdered.

Death of ESO? More like birth of BS.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Over powered. Auto correct.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Here is how the forums work:

"We hate vet ranks remove them!"
"We hate champ points remove them!"
"We hate the next idea too remove it!"

Ad nauseum

Seaber

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Here is how the forums work:

"We hate vet ranks remove them!"
"We hate champ points remove them!"
"We hate the next idea too remove it!"

Ad nauseum

There are reasons people want them removed.

If ZOS implement something good then the people will not ask for it to be removed.

Joy_Division

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

15 pages of crying. I have a level 43 with zero champion points and melt veterans in PVP every day. I'm also smart enough to know that picking a 1 on 1 fight with a VR14 is a bad idea. The only thing imbalanced about ESO is that guys like Deltia use 1438 add ons and think that means they are good. Stop crying and move to the level playing field on consoles. If you're good you can get the top 2% reward in veteran PVP with a non veteran character. I know because I did it.

So your solution is to actually go out of your way to avoid competition and stick to repairing walls to get your AP?

What a spark of brilliance there.

Lisbette

The reason why there is so much complaining about vet ranks and Champion Point grinding is:

For one, good players who have been playing for over a year are having to catch up with people who have more Champion Points than them. And before anyone says it doesn't matter how many Champion Points someone has, yes, it does.

It is a sad fact that people who have been playing so long now have to grind Champion Points to be "good", to be able to fight people who have the time to endlessly grind Champion Points.

Within a year, people will be maxing out their Champion Points to 3600. In a way, yes, the only way to beat people is to out-grind them.

Why is this happening?

Because there is a lack-of-content in this game, and this is Zeni's way of saying, "Here you go, have something to do."

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Lisbette wrote: »

The reason why there is so much complaining about vet ranks and Champion Point grinding is:

For one, good players who have been playing for over a year are having to catch up with people who have more Champion Points than them. And before anyone says it doesn't matter how many Champion Points someone has, yes, it does.

It is a sad fact that people who have been playing so long now have to grind Champion Points to be "good", to be able to fight people who have the time to endlessly grind Champion Points.

Within a year, people will be maxing out their Champion Points to 3600. In a way, yes, the only way to beat people is to out-grind them.

Why is this happening?

Because there is a lack-of-content in this game, and this is Zeni's way of saying, "Here you go, have something to do."

There is not a LOT of complaining about vet ranks or anything else. In the game I rarely if ever hear someone complain. The only angst is from the forums which have always been toxic and full of people unable to be pleased no matter what they do.