The Day ESO Dies

bloodravnb14_ESO · July 2015

You want PvP balanced? go play a fighting game or an FPS. PvP will never be balanced in an MMO and it should never be a focus point for an MMO.

There are just way to many variables, you'd have to reduce everything to the point where all gear, and all skills were normalized across everyone in the campaign (hence, a FPS or a fighting game) to actually make it about player skill. until then it will always be about who has the numbers advantage (gear, skills, players)

Stop trying to make it something it can't be. and stop balancing the game around an aspect that is next to impossible to actually balance. Getting sick of all these games screwing with the parts of the game they can balance so they can try (and fail) to appease people that shouldn't even be playing this type of game.

Bromburak · July 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

The whole point of the CS is to give players something to keep working at, a way to PROGRESS, even when they've exhausted all the content.

If you want to work at something with your character then why do you want it available for all toons on the account and why should something be available that you have never earned with the current playing character?

Copying CPs is no progress its a simple OP transfer to your toons.

It's already going to take 5 years to hit 3600, now you want me to spend another 10 years maxing my two alts? HELL, NO. The Champion System is so time-intensive, it HAS to be account-wide to make it worthwhile.

You were the one who said "The whole point of the CS is to give players something to keep working at!" thats why I was asking and now you say its to much work?

Sorry, but i can't take you serious any longer.

Kupoking · July 2015

bloodravnb14_ESO wrote: »

You want PvP balanced? go play a fighting game or an FPS. PvP will never be balanced in an MMO and it should never be a focus point for an MMO.

There are just way to many variables, you'd have to reduce everything to the point where all gear, and all skills were normalized across everyone in the campaign (hence, a FPS or a fighting game) to actually make it about player skill. until then it will always be about who has the numbers advantage (gear, skills, players)

Stop trying to make it something it can't be. and stop balancing the game around an aspect that is next to impossible to actually balance. Getting sick of all these games screwing with the parts of the game they can balance so they can try (and fail) to appease people that shouldn't even be playing this type of game.

Total lack of vision, unoptimistic and overall negative comment. I hope you do not work at zos.

MOBA are not made for large scale pvp. Eso was built on the principle of 3 way warfare. It makes sense that work is made for this aspect of the game to be balanced.

Other games made it before and now its real close to being balanced here.

Perfect balance is unattainable. As you said, too many variables. Plus balance needs change as the meta change. But s
implying that zos should stop working on it to focus only on pve shows how much self centered you are as much as people you try to denounce.

Kupoking · July 2015

The whole argument of 'its the system that is in place everywhere, there is no way change or improve it so we sbould let it be that way' must stop.

Its a aaa game and people expect from those devs to show creativity, vision, problem solving abilities in order to coming with refreshing stuff, stuff that people want and ask for.

I hope if somewhere there is a dev that gots all this, he should be paid the big bucks and placed at some key position.

mythranda · July 2015

Why not just make it so that you can only gain CP while you're enlightened?

If you don't log on for a while, your enlightenment builds up and you can gain CP until it's gone.

This keeps everyone on a nice, level playing field.

One of the things I really loved about Guild Wars pvp system (the arena portion, not the WvW portion) was that every single person had the same gear available, same skills available, and was able to make any character at the same level and just jump in.

Players still played! The fact that they could improve and learn different ways to play, with different classes and skill combos, with no grinding required made it all the more exciting. Literally all GW2 had to do was introduce some new arena's occaisionally to keep the player base happy.

What if Cyrodiil worked in that way as well? Curious what the pvp base thinks. What if ESO spent more time on developing new content, fixing bugs, etc. and instead introduced a level capped, all gear available Cyrodiil where players were all on an equal playing field? The only thing differentiating you from another player was your personal skill, not the fact that they had spent 6 months grinding, and you just started the game.

Curious to hear your thoughts.

raffa · July 2015

The champion point system needs to be fixed. Adding a cap to the system whether it be weekly, monthly etc.. is not the way forward imo. The catch up mechanics being proposed specific to the cp caps will still make it impossible the longer the game continues on. Longevity wise this is not the way forward.

Arena's in small scale PvP will be a huge step forward. AvA is good, but small scale fights will be a lot more fun to the people that enjoy testing there skill in the game.

Arena was in Skyrim, why not eso? This is not something that will take a huge amount of resources in order to accomplish. Please add in next update.

Cheers.

Elhanan · July 2015

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Finally a voice of reason in this hissy-fit-of-a-thread

@michaelb14a_ESO2 Thanks.

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

[...]

@rdbrown1987 I'm saying that in order to get new content out as fast as they possible can, they need to make some compromises. Unfortunately, this means keeping veteran ranks for now.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Gidorick · July 2015

raffa wrote: »

The champion point system needs to be fixed. Adding a cap to the system whether it be weekly, monthly etc.. is not the way forward imo. The catch up mechanics being proposed specific to the cp caps will still make it impossible the longer the game continues on. Longevity wise this is not the way forward.

Arena's in small scale PvP will be a huge step forward. AvA is good, but small scale fights will be a lot more fun to the people that enjoy testing there skill in the game.

Arena was in Skyrim, why not eso? This is not something that will take a huge amount of resources in order to accomplish. Please add in next update.

Cheers.

THANK YOU! I've been trying to get people to understand that all a cap will do is balance the top tier players. In a year when a new player joins the cap will do NOTHING to help THEM catch up in a reasonable amount of time.

Anyway... I have a pretty solid catchup mechanic suggestion @raffa. Please check it out and give us your opinion (over on that thread.

)

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/184576/champion-points-catch-up-mechanic-concept/p1

Ashtaris · July 2015

jluchau wrote: »

I have to say this. Like many of you I have been around since beta. I love TES and I love ESO. I've subbed since day one and still do. I have seen changes come and have tried to be open minded about them all. I am not a hard core player. I am mediocre at most all aspects of this game. I don't have the time to play that is required to be truly great. That is one reason why I love what @Deltia does so much. I tell you this so you will know where I am coming from on my point of view.

I don't care about the VR change. I don't. I expect with a continuation of content there will be a continuation of character progression. Its the nature of the beast and i'm willing to go along with it. My main is VR12 and i don't know when I will get to "end game". Thats not to say I like the VR system. I don't like it. I feel like it is too slow to level. I'm the kind of guy who is encouraged by making some kind of progress each time i play, or at least every 2 or 3 seasons. But VR isn't really the problem. The problem, and what is most damaging to the average player, is the CP system. For a player like me, I see the VR system and I say slow and steady and i'll get there some day. But the CP system is different, its so immense and I am so far behind that I feel I can never catch up. I will never be able to grind out the CP's that others have. So a large portion of this game will be lost to me. I love and will always love the PvE aspect of this game, but when considering Elder Scrolls ONLINE , the thing that draws is the chance to play with friends. That means PvP, Dungeons and Trials. Well, I can't catch up, people won't want to play with me, I will be forever the weak link. The "catch up" method currently in place isn't enough... I'm enlightened all the time, it doesn't matter... the current CP system means i can never even be mediocre at end game.

I won't pretend I have a great solution, I don't. I'm not a game designer. I don't have the skill set to fix this problem. But, as a game player I feel the problem weighing me down every time I log in. Please, please, please... consider some way to fix this issue. I will stick around, I will continue to wait, I will trust you are taking us somewhere good... but at some point, enough will be enough.

You have some very good points, and I'm sad to say that my wife feels the same way. She is still working so doesn't have that much time to play the game and gain CP's. However, myself being retired, I've gained a considerable number more CP's than she has. Whenever we do Vet content and something goes wrong, she always feels that it might be her fault even though she is just as good of a player than any one of us in the group. I'm constantly reminding her that her skill is not the issue, but she still feels she can't measure up due to the CP disparity. So now she is getting discouraged and not playing nearly as much as she use to

So even though the CP gap has probably a more significant impact in PVP, it is certainly causing problems in PVE gameplay as well.

GreySix · July 2015

Just sell VR16 with max CP in the Crown Store for an insane amount of crowns.

Problem solved.

Bromburak · July 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Almost all the changes being suggested on this thread will do nothing but make the Champion System weak and undesirable, which will be a disaster for PvE players.

Oh this is a totally different story but shows the core problem of the current ZOS strategy.
They don't make any difference between PvP and PvE ...

A good example is the current blocking stamina reg nerf discussion, you cannot just merge a change to different game modes (PvE, PvP) because it has a totally different impact. Its common sense.

Beside the fact that all threads with very constructive feedback regarding this issue are totally beeing ignored by ZOS they don't even explain why they think a change like this makes sense for PvE as well. Simply no communication as usual.

Gidorick · July 2015

Bromburak wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Almost all the changes being suggested on this thread will do nothing but make the Champion System weak and undesirable, which will be a disaster for PvE players.

Oh this is a totally different story but shows the core problem of the current ZOS strategy.
They don't make any difference between PvP and PvE ...

A good example is the current blocking stamina reg nerf discussion, you cannot just merge a change to different game modes (PvE, PvP) because it has a totally different impact. Its common sense.

Beside the fact that all threads with very constructive feedback regarding this issue are totally beeing ignored by ZOS they don't even explain why they think a change like this makes sense for PvE as well. Simply no communication as usual.

No PVP and PVE skill separations was one of the "selling points" of ESO. Much like the MegaServer

SLy_Kyti · July 2015

@Delita

First: On this Independence Day I want to say- Thank You for your prior service to our country

Second: Thank you for posting your thoughts and concerns to us on this forum. As someone greatly in the Public Eye, you've taken a huge risk here in sharing, I appreciate your strength and candor.

Most people are probably just skimming this thread, as in real life; they skim through the hard parts if they can. I have read all that have taken the time to post, some posts several times. I guess I have more time, as well as enjoy meatier fare.

My conclusion is your own conclusions are correct. They've been reiterated here by others, and surfaced on the PST, as has been mentioned. I also agree to your listing the most grievous of problems is not the VR ranks changing.. Nor, is it the CP acquisition & imbalance. It is the lack of integrity, exacerbated by astonishingly poor communication and disregard of the player bases opinions, along with failure to fix glaring bugs. ... I believe (if I read you and others right) this is the daunting problem.

CP can be addressed (likely too late) and VR ranks/XP gain readjusted again and again. Perhaps resulting in a complete re-do. That's game mechanics. Code. But what cannot be overcome, what cannot be ignored any longer by us whom LOVE this game is the mind numbing darkness in a vision from the developers. A vision that is apparent, digestible by the player base and can be historically tracked. The lack of clear communication of whatDaHe!! they are doing, reflecting input from us, delivered in increments is what makes me agree we may have the end in sight.

Bottom line: I feel like I have been playing a ALPHA.

Bromburak · July 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

No PVP and PVE skill separations was one of the "selling points" of ESO. Much like the MegaServer

Yes, and it confirms why there is always impact whenever a change is made because PvE and PvP cannot be balanced in terms of merging everything.

But there is a exception to the rule, thats why we have certain skills with different effects in PvP and PvE ...

azoriangaming · July 2015

Elhanan wrote: »

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Finally a voice of reason in this hissy-fit-of-a-thread

@michaelb14a_ESO2 Thanks.

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

cmon man imperial city has been stood ready for nearly a year and your telling me they couldn't changed a few lines of code in that time to leave it vr14 until they remove the vet ranks altogether, instead their focus has been on the crown store

@rdbrown1987 I'm saying that in order to get new content out as fast as they possible can, they need to make some compromises. Unfortunately, this means keeping veteran ranks for now.

1. they knew the area of time that this was going to be released,

2, they knew adding new vr levels was going to cause a storm after saying no more vet levels and basically they turned around to us and gave the middle finger up to their customers,

3, it's not even on pts yet, the announcement isn't for another 9 days and your telling me that they can't change things in a reasonable time frame to what they promised,

4, this isn't really about the extra vet levels it's about how we've got two progression systems in place atm, where one the champion point system is unrestricted and rewards no people who grind zombies all day long,

5, do you not think we've compromised enough already, this is a prime example of a company failing its customers by saying one thing and doing another on more than one occasion,

please don't forget that these are just my own opinions

Caroloces · July 2015

But that just...wrong. Do you mean than you find good that (sorry to be rude) idiot players can become competitive to skilled and legit players just by outgrinding them? No. this is wrong imho. Competition should be based on skills. Not on gear. Not on Champion point.
I'm super crap at PVP. If I duel Sypher, I deserve to be smashed in few hits. I would not want to win over him just because I got more Champion point. hell, I'd be so ashamed to win a fight due to a mechanic other than my skill. The vitcory would not be deserved.
I want to be good at the game, with my skills, my knowledge, my reflexes. Not with gear or with points.

Thank you, @Elloa, of all the many posts on this thread, you've stated the essence of the problem most succinctly. And thanks to @Deltia for initiating this discussion.

mrskinskull · July 2015

bloodravnb14_ESO wrote: »

You want PvP balanced? go play a fighting game or an FPS. PvP will never be balanced in an MMO and it should never be a focus point for an MMO.

There are just way to many variables, you'd have to reduce everything to the point where all gear, and all skills were normalized across everyone in the campaign (hence, a FPS or a fighting game) to actually make it about player skill. until then it will always be about who has the numbers advantage (gear, skills, players)

Stop trying to make it something it can't be. and stop balancing the game around an aspect that is next to impossible to actually balance. Getting sick of all these games screwing with the parts of the game they can balance so they can try (and fail) to appease people that shouldn't even be playing this type of game.

Yeah I have to agree. A pve game that allows your pve character into PvP seems to be like building a house with water in terms of game balance.
As elloa said time grinders should not be able to beat build makers or tacticians but that's exactly the nature of a PvP built on pve.
Defiance is a great pve game. The PvP is a tangled mess of unbalanced exploiters. Destiny is another example of pve getting needed in service of PvP complaints. Now when you try to use your gun in pve its nerfed.

I just have fun in PvP for better or worst. Its a cool concept and yeah a vet will always destroy me but I try to refrain from going on the forums to beg for sorcs to be needed or whatever because the pve would suffer for it.

I see many great suggestions about trying to balance the PvP in light of cps and vet levels but it can't really happen and someone will always craft a player breaker build.

Vet 16 doesn't seem like a big deal to me because I would lose interest in a game without some exp gain for play time. The account wide cup system is great for building momentum across multiple characters and is like a new game plus mode from old school games.

PvP wasn't really fair before. It prob won't be fair in the future in this kind of game.

I didn't really like destiny's item chasing progression system that hits you like a ton of bricks after level 20. i hated grinding the same five strikes only to get a randommchance to get a random chance to get the helmet i needed and not another glove. I quit that with a vengence.
At least with the champ system, every little bit you do contributes to progression.

Only my opinion though.

Dradhok · July 2015

Couldn't they tier the pvp based on cp? If you have X amount of cp applied then you cannot queue. If you are short cp for a tier you could voluntarily queue. I don't hate the cp system but there needs to be a way to have a balanced pvp system.

Buck · July 2015

The 3600cp is ridiculous to me. I'm less than casual and I get 1cp a day and I'm around 210 now. I really think it needs to be 360cp instead of 3600cp. It just doesn't match the the post L50 game in anyway except making the casual player play longer and the people with the time to play more get to rule the game. The diminishing returns are still there with 360cp, and the points will seem more worth while when you spend them. -in a way it's all the same but one year playing will get you on par, then it's all left up to skill. Raising it as content is implemented will keep a level playing field but right now it's just set to get worse.

Emma_Overload · July 2015

Bromburak wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

The whole point of the CS is to give players something to keep working at, a way to PROGRESS, even when they've exhausted all the content.

If you want to work at something with your character then why do you want it available for all toons on the account and why should something be available that you have never earned with the current playing character?

Copying CPs is no progress its a simple OP transfer to your toons.

It's already going to take 5 years to hit 3600, now you want me to spend another 10 years maxing my two alts? HELL, NO. The Champion System is so time-intensive, it HAS to be account-wide to make it worthwhile.

You were the one who said "The whole point of the CS is to give players something to keep working at!" thats why I was asking and now you say its to much work?

Sorry, but i can't take you serious any longer.

I'll probably be dead or senile in 15 years, what's not serious about that? Besides, it's incredibly unlikely that ESO will last that long, considering that even successful MMO's tend to die off around the 10 year mark.

GreySix · July 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Besides, it's incredibly unlikely that ESO will last that long, considering that even successful MMO's tend to die off around the 10 year mark.

That, and another TES SP game will hit the market, which will draw away a lot of ESO players holding out for it.

OnThaLoose · July 2015

Here's a solution.... Disable CP in PvP. Only have them used in PvE. Problem solved.

Reverb · July 2015

I'm sure this has been addressed, but in addition to the many good points made here, the CP system squashed the game's replayability for me.

I have a few lowbie alts I spun before 1.6, wanting to recreate some of my early toons in a diff faction. They're both still around level 30. I don't level them because time spent playing them is time not earning CP, falling further behind. I feel obligated to spend my gaming time grinding CP just to stay marginally competitive, and it has sucked the fun out of the game.

Tillalarrien · July 2015

Totally agree with deltia's starting point: ther shoul be a catch up mechanic for CP.. Even more so now with untroduction of large xp boosts into the game.. If u want semi balanced competition betweend the players that is based on skill and performence (what was one of the pros of this game), and not on duration of your grinding, changes mist be made..

Also about v16 I am not against that but only reason for it should be new added content: if by that they mean IC then i have few problems with that: I imagine it will be DLC so for people who wont buy it v16 just adds 2 more levels to grind - and even if you buy it - its pvp zone: only way u will be competitive in is is to be highest level with good gear.. That will lead to people who bought it to also grind 2 lvls in pve and then stat with a new content: so why not just keep it 14, skip the grinding, and just give us new content - we need more endgame content anyway - i want to test my end build and its strenghts in various challanges - not just one v16 scaled pvp zone..

[Deleted User] · July 2015

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Seaber · July 2015

OnThaLoose wrote: »

Here's a solution.... Disable CP in PvP. Only have them used in PvE. Problem solved.

no because nobody wants them in pve as they ruin the leaderboards

Psychobunni · July 2015

bloodravnb14_ESO wrote: »

You want PvP balanced? go play a fighting game or an FPS. PvP will never be balanced in an MMO and it should never be a focus point for an MMO.

There are just way to many variables, you'd have to reduce everything to the point where all gear, and all skills were normalized across everyone in the campaign (hence, a FPS or a fighting game) to actually make it about player skill. until then it will always be about who has the numbers advantage (gear, skills, players)

Stop trying to make it something it can't be. and stop balancing the game around an aspect that is next to impossible to actually balance. Getting sick of all these games screwing with the parts of the game they can balance so they can try (and fail) to appease people that shouldn't even be playing this type of game.

I disagree, if they divorced PVE and PVP and stopped trying to balance them together in this unhappy marriage that keeps making the children (players) miserable...they would have a much easier time trying to achieve said balance.

hiyde · July 2015

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

...

...and believe that people with no job...

...people with no life that grind 24/7...

...which would take a sane person with a job and a life...

...no new player or anyone with a life and responsibilities can possibly attain.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

I, for one, am sick and tired of the words "no life" being ascribed to anyone who is able to play the game for significant amounts of time. (and often said by people who play the game for significant amounts of time lol)

What people choose to do with their free time is their business. Labeling anyone with more time to play the game than you as someone with 'no life / no job' just comes across as jealousy and unnecessary rudeness/bullying.

Perhaps those with lots of time to play simply like devoting their free time to video gaming?
Perhaps those with lots of time to play have significant disabilities that prevent them from doing normal things?
Perhaps those with lots of time to play do so as an escape from real life stresses?

Somehow, these people are able to pay for the game, an internet connection, electricity and a roof over their heads.

This chain is full of "no life" slams and it does nothing to further a (very valid) argument about game balance.

(I say this as someone with one VR14 character and <100 champ points -and- and someone who would like to see catch-up mechanics)...

...but as soon as I read the words "no life" in a reply, the person saying it loses all credibility with me.

There's absolutely no need to repeatedly slam others with random insults as part of a discussion like this...unless it's just an excuse to tear down others?

In addition, those 'no-lifers' tend to be the most helpful and available people, most active PvE/PvP/traders and most like to be great members/officers to help guilds function well.

The CP gap is a very valid issue and should be addressed. I think that point can be made without denigrating players based on how many hours they have available to play.

sirston · July 2015

I remember In 1.5 I could as a DK go into PVP take off 50% gear and still kill a majority of players just wearing just warlock because people didn't understand the game as well as they do today. Now days If I tried that I would either be killed by a infinite roll dodger who can set people off balance for just roll dogging and on top of that use's a bugged weapon to punch through my heavy armor! A player Like this Has No Skill.

The champion system did benefit this game for a short amount of time, I would say from the champion level of 75-150 Did not effect this game To bad; but when people who are hitting 500, 600, 700, now 1000? Points Its starting to effect the game way to much.
For the people saying putting a cap on it, Thats a good way to kill a game, for the people saying to remove it from PVP then where just reverting back to 1.5 and that was boring. also another good way to kill end game, Now for people saying having a catch up program That is cool and all; but there still going to be a gap that causes problems. For example if a player who has 1000 champion points make a new character and goes into blackwater blade He is going to be emperor because No one can compete with him. This system has caused to many loopholes to be fixed by little by little.

My Ideas
FOR PVP
Put a limit on how many you can use per level. For example a lvl 10 rereoll can only use 10 champion points on each major tree so a total of 30 max; once he hits level 30 he can use 50 max; once he hits level 50 he can use 100, and the list goes on and on.
Then for Max levels VR14 to VR16 Have two different campaigns one can be ranked, and the other can be unranked one uses all the champion points and the other uses the limited amount system.

FOR PVE
I really don't see the problem for PVE since some of the incoming changes will make a lot of the champion points be up to par to the challenges that are coming. Good Luck for SO

This is just my 2 cents

Elhanan · July 2015

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

Elhanan wrote: »

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

[...]

@rdbrown1987 I'm saying that in order to get new content out as fast as they possible can, they need to make some compromises. Unfortunately, this means keeping veteran ranks for now.

1. they knew the area of time that this was going to be released,

2, they knew adding new vr levels was going to cause a storm after saying no more vet levels and basically they turned around to us and gave the middle finger up to their customers,

3, it's not even on pts yet, the announcement isn't for another 9 days and your telling me that they can't change things in a reasonable time frame to what they promised,

4, this isn't really about the extra vet levels it's about how we've got two progression systems in place atm, where one the champion point system is unrestricted and rewards no people who grind zombies all day long,

5, do you not think we've compromised enough already, this is a prime example of a company failing its customers by saying one thing and doing another on more than one occasion,

please don't forget that these are just my own opinions

@rdbrown1987
1. Agree.

2. Arguable. I don't recall them ever saying "no more vet ranks," but perhaps I missed this. I do know they have said multiple times that they would remove veteran ranks. I don't find these 2 comments mutually exclusive.

3. I don't pretend to assume what they can or cannot do, given their timeframe. I hope they do make some changes, but I will not be raging discontentment towards them if they don't. I want veteran ranks gone as soon as possible, done correctly.

4. Completely 100% agree. That's why I am worried about the emotional responses that people are having to veteran ranks. I don't want this to become a red herring that draws ZOS away from the true problems (CP system). I appreciate Deltia's insight and comments regarding this.

5. I wasn't referring to us customers as the one's having to compromise, but rather was suggesting that ZOS had to prioritize what they would ultimately offer in this patch.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]