The Day ESO Dies

DigitalEulogy

Agree 100% on all topics. I have played since beta and there has been at least 2 times I felt like walking away from this game. I do not leave only because of the friendships and bonds with other players that I have made as well as the desire to want to believe in ZOS and the potential of this great game. I mean who really wants to regrind all those monster helms and specific set pieces that make your character powerful? It just seems like a way to make players continue to play the same content that I (we) have already ran multiple times to get what sets and items we wanted from them not a sincere attempt at extending the game. My 2 cents.

Cagro

I am 100% against VR levels. Just let players reach max level and let them grind gear and/or champion point equally effective in PVE and PVP.

Deltia

MissBizz wrote: »

Daenerys wrote: »

T

My question @Deltia, is if you would be okay waiting for a catch-up mechanic? Yes
If not, why would you not voice your opinion until it is "too late"?
Do you believe ZOS would be able to implement it within their current timeframe for Update 7? No, but I think for the longevity of the game, it can be fixed otherwise no point bringing this up.
I don't think that's possible.
When do you believe this catch-up mechanic is needed? Soon TM (within 3 months)
Right now? If possible
What would you consider an acceptable gap? 100CP? 300CP? When the skill is diminished by math, ESO dies when ones skill can no longer compensate for pure mathematical advantage.

Deltia

Iselin wrote: »

I admit I haven't read the whole thread, just the OP, but I got a bit lost...

I fully understand someone who has invested in several gold-geared V14 characters being pissed about having to re-gear for just a couple of VRs more...

I also understand the disappointment of being told the champion system would replace the VR system, then seeing them both side by side and getting strong indications that the VR system is really not going away despite emphatic words to the contrary.

But I got lost when the OP changed the post to be all about the problems with the champion system. What I got out of it: you don't like bananas because apples suck.

I'm complaining about a system the benefits players like me. You know, where I can gain such a massive competitive advantage that your skill does not matter. If that's not important to you, than the post is irrelevant. I'm trying to subtle say that VR16 won't fix anything in terms of players power and performance in which most games a level increase does.

demendred

If it'll make the cry babies leave the game, let's go VR 20!

Emma_Overload

"The person at level 10 might be more powerful than someone at VR14 due to CP."

I'm, sorry, @Deltia , but I feel like there's some faulty logic here. If a player has so much CP that his level 10 toon can beat a VR14, he's not really a "level 10" player is he? That situation would only happen with a player who has been playing a very long time, and probably has several maxed out alts in addition to his level 10. The VR14, on the other hand, has probably only recently hit that level and doesn't have any "big brother" alts that have earned any CP. You're comparing one toon's power level to another's and calling it unbalanced, but the Champion System isn't a progression system for toons, it's progression system for players!

sadownik

demendred wrote: »

If it'll make the cry babies leave the game, let's go VR 20!

Hah! I feel so hurt.

Now tell me how im entilted kid, who wants something for free.

sadownik

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

"The person at level 10 might be more powerful than someone at VR14 due to CP."

I'm, sorry, @Deltia , but I feel like there's some faulty logic here. If a player has so much CP that his level 10 toon can beat a VR14, he's not really a "level 10" player is he? That situation would only happen with a player who has been playing a very long time, and probably has several maxed out alts in addition to his level 10. The VR14, on the other hand, has probably only recently hit that level and doesn't have any "big brother" alts that have earned any CP. You're comparing one toon's power level to another's and calling it unbalanced, but the Champion System isn't a progression system for toons, it's progression system for players!

So you dont see a problem here? How to balance pve and pvp, how to make content that wont be too difficult for that fresh vr 14 and still challenging for those with hudreds of cp?

Bromburak

@Emma_Eunjung
So you think its ok when i join a non Vet campaign with my 1000+ CP toon and wipe 3-4 people that have just started playing this game?

If yes, please explain why do you like this possibility and please keep in mind that CPs is nothing I have earned for hard work in PvP , its something my Mains have grinded in PvE for my toon in PvP.

This is the worst and imbalanced design I have ever seen.

Shadesofkin

Time caps on CP are not the way to go, ever.

I do believe -after some reflection- that an experience mechanic for catching up should be implemented, but it has to be done carefully, because otherwise it will just encourage even more grinding for a certain element of the game. Time limits or a limit cap on the number of CP a person can earn should *never* be a part of the game, but I agree something that can be used to catch up players who have less than a certain amount and a mechanic to increase the experience or difficulty in gaining above another amount.

Originally I stood by the Champion System and the rate at which they were gained, I still believe it is a great system but as time has gone by I've come to conclude that there are things that need to be fixed about how one earns them.

Veteran Ranks are not a problem and I never will see them as such, sure it sucks that we're going to have to craft or buy or improve gear all over again, but that's not news to any MMORPG player, that's what happens when the level cap is raised.

mrskinskull

I get that adding vr levels might not make everyone happy. As a console player, I will never ever ever catch up to a early adopter ESO PC transfer in terms of champ points.

So in Pvp, those who have been the most loyal and subbed the longest now have a clear advantage. And it is bigger than it was.
I'm not going to beat a horse here but the new vet ranks both give older players something to do and prob aren't as expensive as new dungeons etc.

It seems to me that these vet levels are a way to promote the earliest, loyalist players to an unobtainable god hood compared to us weeny console players who just started.

All of this is just my opinion and they will prob be launching vr levels along side new content otherwise wouldn't the new content be kind of lost experience points if you are vr 14 with no new cap.

Ysne58

@alienslof I've been an admirer of you work for several years. It has made game play better in Oblivion and Skyrim. I think you also modded for Morrowind, but I didn't really get involved with mods until Oblivion.

I agree about the CP system. I find that I like @Gidorick 's proposal. It looks like the best long term solution.

@Deltia Thank you much for getting this conversation started. I really hope the devs at ZOS take this to heart.

Emma_Overload

Bromburak wrote: »

@Emma_Eunjung
So you think its ok when i join a non Vet campaign with my 1000+ CP toon and wipe 3-4 people that have just started playing this game?

If yes, please explain why do you like this possibility and please keep in mind that CPs is nothing I have earned for hard work in PvP , its something my Mains have grinded in PvE for my toon in PvP.

This is the worst and imbalanced design I have ever seen.

If you've been playing long enough to get 1000 CP, you're probably going to wipe those 3-4 newbies, anyway. In any case, this is why VR levels need to be removed, so that things like PvP campaigns can be tiered on the basis of CP instead of levels.

You guys are complaining about the Champion System, when the real problem is the way the PvP campaigns are designed.

To address @sadownik , the same thing applies to PvE: they need to get rid of the VR concept and re-balance PvE content against CP.

The Champion System, itself, however, should never be touched, except to fix bugs. The whole point of the CS is to give players something to keep working at, a way to PROGRESS, even when they've exhausted all the content. If you take that progression away after people have invested SO MUCH TIME AND EFFORT, you will kill ESO for good because there won't be any point to keep playing.

sadownik

sorry wrong therad

EnikSleestak

Once the leveling in a game stops, so do I. There isn't supposed to be "end game."

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

sadownik

EnikSleestak wrote: »

Once the leveling in a game stops, so do I. There isn't supposed to be "end game."

Two words - Champion system.

Xsorus

I posted about this before the CP system was released, Nothing is inherently wrong with having a CP System, DAOC had one that you basically got from doing just PvP, its was called a Realm Rank System with Realm Abilities. This game had a minor one before CP but the small amount of passives/abilities you got wasn't that great.

with the CP system in place you pretty much have DAOC realm rank system in full.

Now....with that said...ZOS did one thing extremely wrong with the CP system that I talked about....They didn't have the XP required for CPs on a Curve.

Sure CP abilities get naturally weaker the more you put points into it, But catching up in any regard is very hard if you're behind. having CP points cost the same amount per level is a bad idea...As someone with 600 points might be getting less per point when putting it in single abilities, but at the same time that person with 50 points while getting more per point is in no way ever going to be able to catch up with the 600 guy anytime soon.

If you want to see how DAOC's realm rank system scaled, here ya go

http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Realm_Ranks

As you can see you in the time it takes you to go from Realm Rank 5 to Realm Rank 6, you can go from RR1 to RR5, Throw in Realm Abilities themselves costing more as you progressed into them and you had a system that allow RR5 players to compete against RR10 players quite easily.

RSram

Hey Deltia,

I agree with your OP. I don get the increase in VR levels, or the reason every character shares the same CP points. I think that the CP points should be lock to the character, not the account. You don't need to create additional VR levels to increase the difficulty of new content, just increase the damage and health of the NPC's in the new content and increase the AI and situational awareness distance of the NPCs like in the public dungeons.

I see a lot of game other designs issues that just doesn't may sense to me either, but that a topic for another discussion. I hopping that the developers one day pull their head out of their ***, and until then, I plan on taking a six month leave of absence when Fallout 4 is released, and I may not come back.

Just like to say, your YouTube videos are awesome. What video editor do you just for your YouTube videos?

JamilaRaj

Elloa wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Deltia wrote: »

I'm all for account wide progression, but at what cost? At the cost that people grinding zombies ultimately win? At the cost that skill and performance are removed out of the game? I want to one day challenge Sypher in PvP without out grinding him. With skill, learning, getting my face kicked in by him over and over just to beat him one day with pure skill. Until this changes, the easier way for me to beat him is out grind him. Obtain such a mathematical advantage that no amount of skill can compensate. And that is the day that ESO dies.

I, for one, disagree with this. People without skill want to win too and in ESO, how it used to work, they could not ever win, because they lacked any skill whatsoever. And these are actually quite many; for every Sypher there are 10 players who do not know how to block or roll from red circles.
Now everybody has at least chance, because they can outgrind even the most elitist players, and players that do not have that much for grinding but have money can win too, because there are XP/CP boosters in the cash shop.

But that just...wrong.

Nah. Virtually every MMORPG has such mechanics, it can not be wrong.

Elloa wrote: »

Do you mean than you find good that (sorry to be rude) idiot players can become competitive to skilled and legit players just by outgrinding them? No. this is wrong imho. Competition should be based on skills. Not on gear. Not on Champion point.
I'm super crap at PVP. If I duel Sypher, I deserve to be smashed in few hits.

No, you don't deserve to be smashed. You deserve to win. You are entitled to. All you need to do is to use your VISA card. Come on, use it and let Sypher die.

Elloa wrote: »

I would not want to win over him just because I got more Champion point. hell, I'd be so ashamed to win a fight due to a mechanic other than my skill. The vitcory would not be deserved.
I want to be good at the game, with my skills, my knowledge, my reflexes. Not with gear or with points.

RSram

Any another thing that I don't get is why don't the developers post their proposals on the forums first before implementing them. By doing this they would accomplish three goals: Their reasoning for the changes, the players would give them valuable feedback, and it would make the players feel more connected to the development of the game. A win win in my book.

GreySix

EnikSleestak wrote: »

Once the leveling in a game stops, so do I. There isn't supposed to be "end game."

True. MMOs are basically this:

EnikSleestak

sadownik wrote: »

EnikSleestak wrote: »

Once the leveling in a game stops, so do I. There isn't supposed to be "end game."

Two words - Champion system.

Right. I'm fine with them removing veteran ranks, as long as there is still character advancement outside of the gear treadmill. There are a lot responding here who hate leveling via either method; veteran or champion. I've noticed this attitude more and more over the years. The hordes want a level cap and then raiding and gear progression in today's games.

That's when I always leave. MOAR DOTS! MOAR DOTS!

Vahrokh

sztartureb17_ESO wrote: »

Respect.

Utmost respect to @Deltia. I love everything he does and I am using HIS sorc build.

I have posted an almost identical thread months ago, sadly nothing changed. I was not alone, other very prominent and/or skilled people like TehMagnus from Hodor posted similar content back at my time.

I hope they'll listen to Deltia, at last. If not to him, they won't listen anyone else.

blabafat

100% Agree.
About the CP: They might not need to nerf it now, however in the near future, I guarantee they will HAVE to put a cap of 360 in PVP for fights to actually end.

Kupoking

Wow this post came a long way since it started. Although there were lots of un necessary comment treating people making claims here of babies or whiners.

Ill tell you, at launch even veteran rank wasnt really acclaimed by the majority of the playerbase. ZoS defended it saying that most ppl in mmos look for a certain form of constant progression and that vr were about questing for better gear, more stats, etc.

Personally, coming from old school DAoC, I was extremely against more level grinding. Because st the end, I want a character capable of tackling the 'real' game that it called endgame content as well as being maxed out for competitive pvp. Anything pulling me further away felt like dead weight or a waste of time.

Had sort of the same spirit with CP system. Swallowed the pill only due to the fact that maria back then said that even though players have a huge difference in CP, it shouldnt be that bad due to extreme diminishing returns. Today I must say that this statement was totally false. Right now at 300cp you cant even compare me to other players at 90-100. My brother is at 90 cp and a new player and there is no way in hell he can reach my dps stats in pve or my sustain in pvp.

The whole arguement of 'in order to get new content we must add level for difficulty sake' is just a simple excuse for lack of vision and shows how much ppl lives in the past of mmos. There are ways to make content that is harder without adding more hp and dmg into mobs codes. Something ZoS did well at the beginning creating content that was difficult and required players to improve their personnal, not character, skills. Players had to improve their dodging and blocking, learn to focus the right targets, change their action bars loadout accordingly, learn boss mechanic or mobs spawn timing at emplacement, etc, etc, etc. See now regarding rise of vr cap and content, my guess is that ZoS seems to downgrade this type of difficulty and that sickens me. I feel like they want players to lay down and taking the mobs beating with their superhuman stats...

Not only that. With v16 now there is tons of content that now becomes obsolete. All the v12 max dungeons, CoA vet, dsa n vdsa, all 3 trials, craglorn delves. What is the point for a v16 all decked out in gold with over 300 cp to come back and do it again? Only trials alone, I refused to run aa and hel ra, even hard mode, because what challenges is there for me as I ran those dungeons at v12 quite easy and cleared the hard modes at my early times of v14. I was stuck doing vdsa and SO as it was the only thing that gave me some challenge.

The real problem with v16 more than just grind a few more exp bars. Its all about the context of was people wanted before and did not like, of the idea that it was about to disapear, and of what it inducates us of what coming in the future. And what people foresee with this extremely bad idea is severe lack of vision, innovation and a game becoming more and more stale, forcing us to look elsewhere for what we want in a game.

Bromburak

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

The whole point of the CS is to give players something to keep working at, a way to PROGRESS, even when they've exhausted all the content.

If you want to work at something with your character then why do you want it available for all toons on the account and why should something be available that you have never earned with the current playing character?

Copying CPs is no progress its a simple OP transfer to your toons.

Vahrokh

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Deltia wrote: »

My good friend Parfax had an excellent suggestion, simply have seasons for Champion Points. Meaning, every three months or so, you could gain 100 CP. Once you reach that number, you have to wait for the reset. No more 100 v 1,000 CP fights. If that doesn't work, why not make CP have diminishing returns? So the first 300 are very easy to obtain, but everything beyond that is harder (similar to Alliance Ranks).

HERE is a detailed post I made about this problem weeks ago, complete with suggestions for fixes.

Notice how all I receive is troll posts to go with my hate mail. Notice how ZOS instantly buried it in "Combat Mechanics."

The psychology of the internet is a marvel to observe. Align with a major monopoly like Facebook/Twitter etc. and people assume you must be legit and support you. Have the same opinion but no monopoly affiliation?

Get trolled.

Perhaps internet tough guys like to pick what they think will be easy fights?

Sort of like the "winners" that grind CP to win in PVP?

Mate, the same happened to me, since day 1.

I was the FIRST to say Craglorn was the worst idea and implementation ever. Guess what happened... trolls, flames...
I was the FIRST to say Craglorn quests mechanism could not work. Guess what happened.
I was the FIRST to say the veteran content difficulty was fine, only thing we needed was not to nerf it but to fix stamina specs so they could do that content. Guess what happened.
I was one of the FIRST to say raising level to VR14 with no solo content to match was BAD. Guess what happened to us.
I was one the FIRST to say the Sorcs mechanics could not work well for PvE end game DPS. Guess what happened.
I was one of the FIRST to say CPs scaled were not "horizontal levelling up" enough. Another guy even posted a ton of detailed math formulas proving that. Guess what happened.
I was one of the FIRST to say CPs had this huge flaw, where new players can't ever catch up the elder ones and will quit discouraged. Guess what happened...


Ah, before another Deltia will post a famous post: Months ago I have been the first to claim the F2P in game shop model that ZoS chose cannot sustain the game development (contrary to financially sustainable F2P shops like SWTOR's). I did not even get trolled or flamed on that post.

My account is January 2014, I have been in closed beta.
I have every loyal reward, I never stopped paying sub even after ESO went F2P.

It's 1.5 years I write what will happen in advance. And all I got is being treatened - repeatedly - to be permanently banned.

My other name is Cassandra.

Emma_Overload

Bromburak wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

The whole point of the CS is to give players something to keep working at, a way to PROGRESS, even when they've exhausted all the content.

If you want to work at something with your character then why do you want it available for all toons on the account and why should something be available that you have never earned with the current playing character?

Copying CPs is no progress its a simple OP transfer to your toons.

It's already going to take 5 years to hit 3600, now you want me to spend another 10 years maxing my two alts? HELL, NO. The Champion System is so time-intensive, it HAS to be account-wide to make it worthwhile. This also serves as insurance against all the ridiculous nerfs to classes, skills and races that are, strangely enough, almost always the result of PvP whining. For example, no matter how bad my Sorcerer gets nerfed in the next patch, at least I'll be able to take my hard-earned CP to a Nightblade or Templar alt.

Almost all the changes being suggested on this thread will do nothing but make the Champion System weak and undesirable, which will be a disaster for PvE players.

JamilaRaj

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Not only that. With v16 now there is tons of content that now becomes obsolete. All the v12 max dungeons, CoA vet, dsa n vdsa, all 3 trials, craglorn delves. What is the point...

The point is to make you go buy the Imperial City DLC of course, just in case you are not sufficiently content-starved yet.