PVP Update, June 2015

Leandor

I am seriously impressed. @ZOS_BrianWheeler , thank you very much for making exactly the changes that I wished for. Now please make sure all of these are happening exactly as indicated.

SturgeHammer

@ZOS_BrianWheeler will the Campaigns have different end of campaign reward structures corresponding to the new scoring systems? For example, will Thornblade (Keeps matter) have different end of campaign rewards than Chillrend (scrolls matter)?

BigTone

So much
I can't wait
You do care about PvPers
/Haith Battlemaster Voice: "This is going to be so much fun"

I came very close to unsubbing yesterday after crashing three times from recipes. VERY CLOSE. This announcement will keep me subbing for now.

Thank you

ZOS_BrianWheeler

Many AE abilities have 2 LOS checks at the beginning and end of casting by default. Since many of these are instant cast, there's no need for one of those checks, which halves the amount of messages sent back and forth between the client and server. The LOS checks are still needed to ensure you can't PBAE through walls and physics objects that would block the effects from going "through them".

Taonnor

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Many AE abilities have 2 LOS checks at the beginning and end of casting by default. Since many of these are instant cast, there's no need for one of those checks, which halves the amount of messages sent back and forth between the client and server. The LOS checks are still needed to ensure you can't PBAE through walls and physics objects that would block the effects from going "through them".

Oh that's a very technical answer. I love that part of information's.

Benawaw89

my former emperor buff is gone i worked so hard to get that emperor. now only RED emperor color left

imo emperor buff isnt a game changing, its a reward for hardwork becoming empeor. imo it should be just there.

Soulac

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Everytime it starts lagging you can see the following skills everywhere:
- Caltrops
- Meteor (+ ground effect)
- Healing Springs
- banner
- nova
- other ground AoEs but are used much less compared to caltrops etc.

as soon as one group dies and no enemys are standing in the aoes anymore the lag disappears instantly.
If you have many people at one place but no one is using ground aoes it doesn´t or barely lag.

That´s what i noticed over the past months at least, but changing something is worth a try in my opinion..

Quantine

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Many AE abilities have 2 LOS checks at the beginning and end of casting by default. Since many of these are instant cast, there's no need for one of those checks, which halves the amount of messages sent back and forth between the client and server. The LOS checks are still needed to ensure you can't PBAE through walls and physics objects that would block the effects from going "through them".

Oh, I see what you mean. Thanks a lot for the quick response. That sounds really good then Hope it will reduce the lag! Keep it up!

Junipus

I'm actually impressed and heartened by the bumph released, although implementation is always the fall down point for ZOS so hopefully the changes both proposed and unknown will be put into the game properly so that PvP can bloom again

venomsky

so instead of punishing players who was farming former emp you are removing former emp buff?how this will stop zerg? now big guilds will sit in 1 campaign or tower farm newbies

Ley

It's not new pvp content but it's a start in the right direction. Changes look good to me, I think it'll get a lot more people into pvp.

Erwen

dont agree with the former emp removal. simple, there is no reason to take this off, NO REASON!

Psilent

Completely fine with all these changes! As long as I can keep my Former Emperor title and Ruby Throne Red dye, so I can keep my red converse look going, I'm good! Really could care less about the passives.

Really looking forward to the new campaign scoring methods. The one with only resources generating points has me very intriqued!

Sadly, it seems testing on my AD characters with @vortexman11 is over. Can't risk getting stuck with a 150k removal fee if my EP guild decides to home on their campaign. Only reason I ever used travel to player option.

Bfish22090

This is all great stuff


...but when?

Ley

Erwen wrote: »

dont agree with the former emp removal. simple, there is no reason to take this off, NO REASON!

Reason: To discourage emperor swapping.

Takllin

Wow I really like all these changes, thank you!

Yonkit

The switching of campaigns and traveling to players was not the problem... the buff servers were the problem. The anti-competitive nature of factions (DC pve'rs have been doing this too) who roflstomp maps at 3AM is the problem. The cost of switching campaigns along with the inability to travel to different campaigns is going to effectively crush the lowest faction population (DC). WE CANNOT GET GOOD FIGHTS unless we face lagbombs in chillrend or wait around for someone to fight us in thorn, and even that only takes place when another guild (EP or AD) utilizes the travel to player feature to bring in some numbers.

When I log on I check one map that's solid red, two maps that are solid yellow, one map that's solid blue, and no one wants to come fight. I have to bounce from campaign to campaign looking for action because even when you try to make action without a large group by your side the buff protectors come out and zerg the *** out of you.

Like the change in forward camps that was made for the "integrity" of pvp, the changes to travel to player or changing campaigns is going to continue to slow down the pace of pvp. Eight months ago you could hop into a campaign, port directly over to a battle via forward camps, fight for an hour, then go about your life. Then you stripped forward camps, so now you have to log in, ride ride ride, take a resource and hope that appropriate numbers for a decent fight come out or die, respawn, and ride ride ride. Now we're going to be locked in deadened campaigns waiting for enemies to show up hoping that it happens to be a "good day" in Azura or Thorn or Hade, but without other people being able to come in and stir up trouble, or me going and stirring up trouble in another campaign, we're going to see more and more players, I fear, logging on then logging off due to boredom.

It's my prognostication, just like I thought getting rid of forward camps were going to detrimentally affect pvp casual play, which is a vital part of the population and the fun of the game, so maybe this time I'll be wrong, but I kinda doubt it.

Instead... roll out the changes in emp buffs and pvp buff campaigns without locking everyone into place. See how things work incrementally rather than making too many changes too quickly.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Always love your posts @ZOS_BrianWheeler !

Some thoughts:

I would agree with many others who say that, for the vast majority of players, faction score does not matter at all. This was a big point that emerged out of the original thread you posted a few months back feeling out scoring changes. The idea is to promote different strategies, but there would be better ways to do this that would also be more dynamic and better tied into the game world. The strategy of changing scoring seems like trying to do more with less (ie trying to change things up with minimal development investment) -- rather than implement new mechanics (like capturing/defending towns that could boost quest exp and defenses of nearby keeps, or making resources more important), it sounds like you all are trying to switch numbers around to try and drive different player strategies/interactions. I'm not sure if it'll stick because of my next point and the fact that scoring matters so little, but we will see.

Resetting everyone's home/guest campaign selections when these change go live is definitely necessary so you won't be locked into anything to start with. And while you would be more or less locked in a campaign, so would everyone else. There'd be no need to jump around because nobody else can, which means the action won't leave either because of campaign hopping. Not sure yet if increasing costs for campaign changes are good or bad overall, but I think people will err on the side of caution and stick to shorter campaigns that they can switch from if they so desire (thus making campaign length more important than scoring style, rendering scoring style even less important to players). Traveling to group members in another campaign bypasses population meters/locks (making campaign populations misleading and contributing to lag), and also decreases any sense of loyalty or investment in a campaign, so I personally like the limits to campaign hopping. I definitely agree with @Yonkit about rolling out these changes incrementally: "roll out the changes in emp buffs and pvp buff campaigns without locking everyone into place. See how things work incrementally rather than making too many changes too quickly."


I think eliminating PvP buffs from outside of Cyrodiil won't be detrimental to PvE as the content is already easy enough without it. As for affecting campaign populations, I don't think it will have a lasting impact. The playerbase is growing and things will even out or condense into favorite campaigns (again, likely the shorter ones). For PvE people that don't PvP much, there's still incentive to go to Cyrodiil for grinding, questing, exploration, and the Alliance War abilities.

Agree with battle leveling and am ambivalent about changes to emperor. Emperor farming is pretty much a thing of the past now that all campaigns are pretty active so I don't see why the former emp passives need to go, but the title, dye, costume, and achievement are all that's left now once you get it so there's still some fun incentives to get emp.

Komma

Very pleased with all of this. Absolutely love the former emp change especially. Would there be a way for all campaigns to count towards an overall victory? This would make all campaigns important.

Soulac

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Also:
You can actually use multiple ultimates in a lag which shouldn´t be possible.. you looking over it as well?
Example: Ping >999 -> Meteor Spam by pressing the button a few times and all of these meteors will deal dmg.

Ley

Bfish22090 wrote: »

This is all great stuff


...but when?

Soon.™

Draxys

I'm actually worried that when people can't find action on a campaign and they can't jump to another one, we will have another mass exodus from the game.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Bfish22090 wrote: »

This is all great stuff


...but when?

He says in the next major update, as well as possibly some smaller patches before then.

Ghostbane

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Thank you for the meaty proposal! Several thank yous actually.

Just to question further on a tid-bit regarding Battle Leveling. With the wording presented, can you confirm if I can activate Battle Leveling on say, a VR5 character. This will increase their stats to a 'moderate VR14' ?

Garion

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

First and foremost thank you for taking the time to write this post and let us know what is happening and what you have been working on / planning to implement. It is long overdue but I do appreciate the fact you have now decided to communicate with us do throughly.

Secondly, I can get behind most of these changes. Some I love (no more PvE buffs) some I hate (taking away my former emp buffs) however I do understand why you have decided to implement the changes. Having said that however there is one change that deeply concerns me, and it is one that I think you should strongly reconsider. I will take the time to explain now - but please excuse me if something doesn't quite make sense - I am typing on my phone.

Jump-to-Friend: Social jumping into Cyrodiil or any PVP space is being disabled. This has long been the way to get around the Guest/Home campaign assignment. With this change, we’re closing that loophole as it's detrimental to the overall PVP experience and integrity of the campaign system.

This worries me greatly. I can see why you are doing it, but I just can't agree that it is worthwhile.

- I will start by touching on something that doesn't necessarily impact a terribly large number people, but I feel obliged to bring up anyway as an officer of the EU's largest duelling guild. If you implement this change, pre-arranged duels become significantly more difficult if not impossible. Guild wide duel events - which in Arena are currently taking place daily - will simply become impossible. Duel locations are always decided on the basis of a) campaign balance and b) amount of lag. If you implement this change the only thing I see we can do is have a fixed campaign on which duels take place. Many people will choose not to waste a campaign slot on this, and so we instantly lose a number of duellers. Those that remain won't be able to take part if that campaign suddenly becomes a buff campaign, or if lag on that campaign becomes unbearable. Campaign hopping is the only thing that keeps duelling viable. Now I recognise that this game isn't about duelling and that you haven't taken this into consideration when trying to "fix" Cyrodiil. I understand this, as I am sure all duellers do, but we have made the best of this by creating a duelling system that works. I beg you not to destroy this and further demonstrate that you don't care for small scale PvP.

- Second reason, and perhaps the main one - campaign hopping is often the only thing that keeps me in game. I see you reasoning behind it, I do. You think that by making it harder for people and guilds to flip between campaigns you are going to achieve much greater balance within campaigns. I don't see this however. What I see is that I log on in the evening to PvP, my home and guest campaigns are both incredibly laggy because of zergballs, and I can't go anywhere else to enjoy my evening in Cyrodiil. When this happens do you know what I and many other players will do? We will log out. If this happens enough, we will just stop bothering to log in in the first place.

I would argue that if you want to encourage people to stick to a campaign you need to significantly increase rewards instead. Give them more gold if they are high on the leaderboards, maybe even give them gold if they only play on their home campaign when they are logged in. There are a bunch of good ideas in the PvP forums about things you can do to incentivise people to show commitment to a campaign. I implore you not to make it so we have nowhere to go when a campaign turns to crap however. Some people are happy to run with the huge zergs. When a map gets overrun by these types of players though, I want to go elsewhere. This change will annoy more people than it will make happy. I am sure of it.

Takllin

Draxys wrote: »

I'm actually worried that when people can't find action on a campaign and they can't jump to another one, we will have another mass exodus from the game.

Thinking about it further I'm wondering if they should eliminate a campaign or two and add them back if needed. I think right now we have an excess and could use to have one or two removed.

EgoRush

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Please tell me you plan on wiping the PvE leaderboards if this is the case. All of the top scores at the moment have only been obtained with the full advantages that PvP buffs provide between massive crit chance amps, base damage amps, and former emp buffs. If you do not wipe the leaderboards, many of those scores will remain unbeatable until players have an absurd amount of champion points to outscale the differences.

Not all of them. All the EU EP scores at the minute for 12-man trials are with zero buffs. Though the scores are not exactly top place haha. Arena scores of >11.8K were being obtained with zero buffs now though.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler You beauts for removing PvP buffs from PvE though! EVEN PLAYING FIELD HERE WE COME! That change alone has infused me with so much spirit for the game again. The alterations to campaigns is also exciting! I'm already trying to decide which campaign theme suits me best

Thrilling changes, really.

Former Emp passives I'm not bothered about. I don't think they make or break a build. But if it stops Emp farming then maybe that's a good thing. I know of raid groups that will crown an emperor, then purposely lose keeps just so someone else can be crowned as emperor after...kinda defeats the point of PvP.

Observant

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Ok, this is going to take some time to process.

Holy sheep!

RIGHT?!

Holy jumping black jezuz. I can't believe my eyes right now.

I still think we need to nerf one of the campaigns though, we don't have enough players to keep all of those sufficiently populated. Try it for a couple of weeks, if it doesn't work add it back.

LazyLewis

Okay everything here sounds good @ZOS_BrianWheeler besides removing Former Emp Buffs. Some people have worked so hard to get their Emperorship in the past and it would be unfair to remove these buffs. People like myself who work 45 hours a week and very rarely even find a chance to get Emp would be severely disheartened to try as much as we use to and new/different characters because we don't have the time like some people to get Emp every week/day. Unless you play this game 20 hours a day what's the use in going for Emperor with this proposal if we don't get anything for it in the long-term?

People wont push as hard to get Emp anymore because of know reward after. Thus reducing desire to play end game content. People hold that 5% Ultimate Cost reduction to the their hearts very dearly and to take it away once they have had it would just be disheartening.

Tavore1138

Ley wrote: »

Erwen wrote: »

dont agree with the former emp removal. simple, there is no reason to take this off, NO REASON!

Reason: To discourage emperor swapping.

1% to this and that was hardly game changing so on one hand I won't miss them in any practical way, on the other hand the removal of something I worked hard for many campaign cycles before finally getting really cheeses me off. There should be some small recognition even if it was just a single token passive...

P.S. Not 100% sure how these changes will pan out but kudos for trying to fix things, nomad prevention is one area I think will be an important change.