Animation Canceling good for the game?

Acrolas

Rohaus wrote: »

The people that want it removed are the ones that are not skilled enough to perform animation canceling. It's not hard..

No, the people who want it removed probably have enough sense to realize that if a boss had this type of ability in-game, everyone would want its animation-canceling ability removed. It's all fun and games until the joke's on you, right?

Animation canceling is a failure to telegraph. It removes a player's ability to make a choice.
That makes it a serious flaw instead of a feature to be taken seriously.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs
(Extra Credits 3:16 - 4:10)

Snit

Yes, it's good for the game.

You can learn to do it in a day. It may take a week for the muscle memory to really set in, but you can begin to get competent in minutes.

This isn't even a player skill issue so much as a player motivation differential.

Milktray

I never knew this existed

Lets do the same for all the bosses, let them run skills with animation cancelling ;-)

Uberkull

I never knew this existed

Molsondry wrote: »

ok you guys dont understand why its so broken and need to be fixed lol ? Ill quote myself

Molsondry wrote: »

Also wanted to add that this system is REALLY BAD for pvp. Can you imagine the fluctuation into sent packet witht his in a 40v40 pvp battle wow......What do you think its does to the server when a player try to send 5 packets at the same time because they just registered 5 attack in 1.5 second because of the animation canceling. He doesnt really like it .. now to this x 40-50 in the same alliance server... That + there antibot system with how everything is on the client side... hahahahahahahahahahahahaha just think 2 second about this? How do you think they lag out the servers? Thanks zenimax for your broken code

I did read this that you posted in another thread. This is part of the reason I put this poll up.

But let's focus on your point. For a MMO client the chatter back and forth is constant. If you packet sniff the network connection of a basic MMO, it's a constant chatter of, lets call them, commands. You really think animation canceling is going to impact server lag? I don't think it's enough to make a difference. You send more packets when you move, staggering back and forth.

idk

Yes, it's good for the game.

uberkull wrote: »

Milktray wrote: »

I never knew of it but i'll agree bad for the game, as they then would have to balance around everyone using animation cancelling, meaning that actually attacking as intended would be viewed as 'gimping yourself' and invites, refusals, kicks etc would start to be based around 'do they cancel or not'

I read that ZOS removed a majority of the 'increase attack speed' buffs(other that the weapon trait) because of 'spell weaving' existing.

I doubt that is the case. The attack speed passives were deemed very low value as they reduced time between attacks which is short regardless of animation canceling or not. Shortening 0.05 seconds by 10% is basically the kind of benefit it provided.

technohic

No, it's bad for the game

uberkull wrote: »

Molsondry wrote: »

ok you guys dont understand why its so broken and need to be fixed lol ? Ill quote myself

Molsondry wrote: »

Also wanted to add that this system is REALLY BAD for pvp. Can you imagine the fluctuation into sent packet witht his in a 40v40 pvp battle wow......What do you think its does to the server when a player try to send 5 packets at the same time because they just registered 5 attack in 1.5 second because of the animation canceling. He doesnt really like it .. now to this x 40-50 in the same alliance server... That + there antibot system with how everything is on the client side... hahahahahahahahahahahahaha just think 2 second about this? How do you think they lag out the servers? Thanks zenimax for your broken code

I did read this that you posted in another thread. This is part of the reason I put this poll up.

But let's focus on your point. For a MMO client the chatter back and forth is constant. If you packet sniff the network connection of a basic MMO, it's a constant chatter of, lets call them, commands. You really think animation canceling is going to impact server lag? I don't think it's enough to make a difference. You send more packets when you move, staggering back and forth.

No; its not like you are sitting on an idle connection to the game server when you are not hitting an ability. I don't think that could add much to the lag if at all.

And it is because of lag that I do not buy macros doing anything either. A macro cannot do anything outside of what you can do manually. Its just an automation of what you would do and game mechanics will not allow for things to happen as fast as people claim even with a macro without somehow otherwise jacking with the innate cooldown of a smidge over 1 second.

My issue with animation cancelling is that some classes and abilities are much smoother in it and work a lot better with it. Going with just the 2 classes specifically that are not complained about on purpose is you look at DK abilities and Templar abilities. One plays much nicer than the other into the cancels.

idk

Yes, it's good for the game.

Both classes play well into animation canceling if they do it right. This is regardless of them bring magika or stamina builds also. The argument in the previous oost concerning this doesn't seem valid.

Molsondry

No, it's bad for the game

technohic wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Molsondry wrote: »

ok you guys dont understand why its so broken and need to be fixed lol ? Ill quote myself

Molsondry wrote: »

Also wanted to add that this system is REALLY BAD for pvp. Can you imagine the fluctuation into sent packet witht his in a 40v40 pvp battle wow......What do you think its does to the server when a player try to send 5 packets at the same time because they just registered 5 attack in 1.5 second because of the animation canceling. He doesnt really like it .. now to this x 40-50 in the same alliance server... That + there antibot system with how everything is on the client side... hahahahahahahahahahahahaha just think 2 second about this? How do you think they lag out the servers? Thanks zenimax for your broken code

I did read this that you posted in another thread. This is part of the reason I put this poll up.

But let's focus on your point. For a MMO client the chatter back and forth is constant. If you packet sniff the network connection of a basic MMO, it's a constant chatter of, lets call them, commands. You really think animation canceling is going to impact server lag? I don't think it's enough to make a difference. You send more packets when you move, staggering back and forth.

No; its not like you are sitting on an idle connection to the game server when you are not hitting an ability. I don't think that could add much to the lag if at all.

And it is because of lag that I do not buy macros doing anything either. A macro cannot do anything outside of what you can do manually. Its just an automation of what you would do and game mechanics will not allow for things to happen as fast as people claim even with a macro without somehow otherwise jacking with the innate cooldown of a smidge over 1 second.

My issue with animation cancelling is that some classes and abilities are much smoother in it and work a lot better with it. Going with just the 2 classes specifically that are not complained about on purpose is you look at DK abilities and Templar abilities. One plays much nicer than the other into the cancels.

Ok so.. Get a 40 men group go in a delve and all start hitting animation canceling macro ansd look what its does...you will see what im talking about. maybe 1 guy doing animation canceling doesn'T jam server but 60x in the same area WHILE MOVING STRIFING DODGING AND BLOCKING


And what to they do to lag ANY SERVER , they DDOS what is DDOS? they send massive amount of packets at the same time. Zos are DDOS themself with the broken codes thats all thats why everytimeyou have 80 + men battle in a keep you get over 5k ms

In this case there are already a massive amount of packet sent to server because of the out going 40 v40 battle you have a fuild amount of packet going for movement block dodge and etc then YOU HAVE THE DDOS ZERG COMING WHEN 40 MEN START TO ANIMATION CANCEL AS THEY ENGAGE COMBAT what does this do? there is already a masive flow of packet send to server, then they just DDOS the server using all animation canceling at the same time sending massive amount of packet within seconds. Think about it?

Put a 1 second gcd on everything execpt special defensive/offensive . Its all gonna be fluid again and I bet you a good part of the lag will be gone

Shunravi

Yes, it's good for the game.

Milktray wrote: »

?? that does not say animation cancelling is in or ok .. all it says is the animations will look and fit better together.

Find something that says 'yes, we endorse animation cancelling'

https://youtu.be/KSjxZZTS1Uw

Go to 44:10

PKMN12

couple things i should say here:

1. The game has been balanced for animation canceling. a normal endgame character will not be able to complete any of the trials without at least basic knowledge of animation canceling.
2. if they get rid of animation canceling, it would completely change the way the game is played. this might be both a good thing and a bad thing. It would make combat A LOT slower then it is at the moment. something that drastic might get players to leave the game (well, more then there are already leaving the game) because they liked how fast combat was.

RedTalon

What? I thought they fixed this.

Had to answer this cause you know

Uberkull

I never knew this existed

Shunravi wrote: »

Milktray wrote: »

?? that does not say animation cancelling is in or ok .. all it says is the animations will look and fit better together.

Find something that says 'yes, we endorse animation cancelling'

https://youtu.be/KSjxZZTS1Uw

Go to 44:10

WoW. That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also. That's just wrong.

timidobserver

No, it's bad for the game

I know how to do it very well and accept that it isn't ever going to be fixed/removed, but I honestly can't say I think it is good for the game.

uberkull wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Milktray wrote: »

?? that does not say animation cancelling is in or ok .. all it says is the animations will look and fit better together.

Find something that says 'yes, we endorse animation cancelling'

https://youtu.be/KSjxZZTS1Uw

Go to 44:10

WoW. That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also. That's just wrong.

There is no point in making macroing against the rules if they don't have the technology to detect it or the desire to ban a significant portion of their player base.

PBpsy

Yes, it's good for the game.

Shunravi wrote: »

Milktray wrote: »

?? that does not say animation cancelling is in or ok .. all it says is the animations will look and fit better together.

Find something that says 'yes, we endorse animation cancelling'

https://youtu.be/KSjxZZTS1Uw

Go to 44:10

Awesome. Now can the dead horse have some freaking rest?
Animation canceling is part o the game .Is good for the game and it will remain in the game until the end. The issues has been settled long time ago.

Gidorick

Seth_Black wrote: »

Yes, it's form of cheating (gives unfair advantage over other players)

How is it cheating if everyone can do it?

Cry_Wolfe

No, it's bad for the game

Rohaus wrote: »

The people that want it removed are the ones that are not skilled enough to perform animation canceling. It's not hard..

I saw the same thing in Age of Conan... There used to be this thing called combo skipping... It was basically the same idea... You would cancel out the last part of the animation thus improving mobility and damage output... The cry babies that weren't able to perform the combo skipping whined about it for a few years and then Funcom removed it... I really hope that ZOS doesn't remove animation canceling... Especially because of unskilled whiners...

Seth_Black wrote: »

No, it's constantly abused by using in macros especially in PvP.
Combos like critical rush + wrecking blow + executioner or ambush + wrecking blow + killers blade for example

tested myself, works every time (but no, not using it)
Yes, it's form of cheating (gives unfair advantage over other players)

Animation canceling should work ONLY when you cancel skill with BLOCK or interrupt/bash

I use it alot, it is nice and fluid, but lets be honest with ourselves: it was only ever meant to apply to blocking attacks. It is a broken mechanic, further evidenced by its use to create unreasonable numbers of attacks within very very short amounts of time.

Obviously Zos will probably never fix this bug/feature/lol because ... they are ZoS

DaveMoeDee

Molsondry wrote: »

ok you guys dont understand why its so broken and need to be fixed lol ? Ill quote myself

Molsondry wrote: »

Also wanted to add that this system is REALLY BAD for pvp. Can you imagine the fluctuation into sent packet witht his in a 40v40 pvp battle wow......What do you think its does to the server when a player try to send 5 packets at the same time because they just registered 5 attack in 1.5 second because of the animation canceling. He doesnt really like it .. now to this x 40-50 in the same alliance server... That + there antibot system with how everything is on the client side... hahahahahahahahahahahahaha just think 2 second about this? How do you think they lag out the servers? Thanks zenimax for your broken code

On the other hand, the server doesn't need to worry about whether you completed an action. The cancelling of the animation is just the problem of the client.

Razzak

No, it's bad for the game

What is the point of animations, if the best way of combat is to cancel them?
Can ZOS identify who is who isn't using macros?

Heromofo

I never knew this existed

This could explain a part of the pvp lag especially with macros. They are very hard to police and can cause alot of problems if multiple people do it at once and it would be in the case of a zerg.

Very interesting thread.

Seth_Black

No, it's bad for the game

Rohaus wrote: »

The people that want it removed are the ones that are not skilled enough to perform animation canceling. It's not hard..

Not really.
Yes, it's not hard to learn
Yes, you MUST use it in trials now to have good dps

but

There's too many ways to abuse it and keep using to own advantage (like macros in pvp)
I'm not saying animation canceling is an exploit itself ...but it LEADS to more possible exploits being used in the game
Look at the big picture here you can be even very 'skilled' but proper macro will end you in pvp in 3 seconds anyway.
Sure, you can say 'I'm a PvE player only' ...just wait for raiding guilds to demand combo macros to increase damage output of the group ...what then?

Yasha

No, it's bad for the game

I do it because you have to but I think its stupid. The animation of one skill should play out before you can use another skill. I find the argument that animation cancelling is good because it is "skilful" laughable, it would require far more skill to be locked into your animation once you commit to using a skill than the cheese we have now.

Aballister

No, it's bad for the game

Not sure it's bad for the game, but as they do say "unintended feature", then the content was not designed with it in mind, therefore it should be fixed.

Merlin13KAGL

Other - none of the above.

To be fair, I really don't think animation canceling is the overall issue.

First, my stance: All skills should have a visual indication of some kind to allow the other party to see what's happening and potentially counter. If they'd set it up so the cooldowns were functional as they should be, this would not be an issue.

Second, if you cancel an animation, it should cancel the skill. It was never intended to allow for more DPS. It was intended to allow you the choice to stay in your current skill/attack or forfeit it for another, not both. It's supposed to give you the choice of dropping your attack for a roll dodge/block to keep from getting your butt handed to you.

That being said, it's unlikely to ever go away.

Back to the point at hand, it is near impossible to know what your max DPS could be with a given setup. When you reach a solid average, there is little good in-game way of knowing how much gear, gear quality, set choice, skill rotation, attribute/CP allotment, sustain, or just personal player timing can potentially improve.

Those that weave (I medium weave), can potentially do it better (increasing DPS). Those that don't or are unsure if they consistently do it can do it or do it better, as well.

Add bugs, glitches, and lag into the mix and it's even harder for someone to know.

Without test dummies, it would almost be nice if another individual, familiar with the class, could "test drive" another person's character and show the results. It could at least show the potential spread. Same with gear, etc.

I mean, you can walk into a gun range and test out a weapon before you buy, right? Dropping $100k+ to test a setup that may or may not increase things can be daunting, to say the least.

A lot of new people coming in pick it up without even realizing it. As many have suggested, there should be an in-game way to see the results (show your timing at a target-range, etc) or add a tutorial so it becomes a choice. An NPC trainer would be nice, again, to allow you to hone the skill, if they're going to leave it in.

Simply put, they can split the difference, something between mindlessly pressing buttons in repetition and closer the fairly fluid combat feel it provides now.

Once you get used to it, you'll never go back. It does add a timing element to combat and actually helps with sustain.

I honestly don't mind that it's there - I did a version of it intuitively. I simply think if it is to remain, they should allow people an in-game, consistent and verifiable method to improve it.

Molsondry

No, it's bad for the game

FYI I just tried a macroing program , just to see, HAHAHA. Its humanly impossible to recreate what its does lol.

It littlerally fire my force pulse and animation cancel into medium weaving within .2 second before casting another force pulse .3 second later. I get 4 attack per second where if animation canceling wouldnt exist I would do 1 attack

However I try hard what so ever I do I cant reproduce it manually , I only get 2 attack per second manualy....Its insanly broken..

I understand now how I got killed in cyro with 24k health and about 18k worth shield within 1 second and only 2 attack would appear in my death recap. Was so quick the recap page didnt register the other atack. I only see 10k critical rush and 8k wrecking blow. thats not even my full health bar lol.

Broken as hell

AH93

No, it's bad for the game

Very bad for the game indeed.

Soarin'

No, it's bad for the game

It is an incentive for foul play, giving an unfair advantage in competitive play (using macro's). You cannot argue against this fact.

This alone should be grounds for the fixing of animation cancelling at least in Cyrodiil and DSA, if you argue against this you are simply part of the problem.

Razzak

No, it's bad for the game

Molsondry wrote: »

FYI I just tried a macroing program , just to see, HAHAHA. Its humanly impossible to recreate what its does lol.

It littlerally fire my force pulse and animation cancel into medium weaving within .2 second before casting another force pulse .3 second later. I get 4 attack per second where if animation canceling wouldnt exist I would do 1 attack

However I try hard what so ever I do I cant reproduce it manually , I only get 2 attack per second manualy....Its insanly broken..

I understand now how I got killed in cyro with 24k health and about 18k worth shield within 1 second and only 2 attack would appear in my death recap. Was so quick the recap page didnt register the other atack. I only see 10k critical rush and 8k wrecking blow. thats not even my full health bar lol.

Broken as hell

I agree and I think using macroing programs or hardware could become the norm once players learn how easy it is to do it, especially since there is no indication of ZOS being able to identify those that are macroing and thus prevent them from doing it.
But I guess even that takes some sort of skill. Too bad it's a skill that monkey could be taught to use.

technohic

No, it's bad for the game

Molsondry wrote: »

FYI I just tried a macroing program , just to see, HAHAHA. Its humanly impossible to recreate what its does lol.

It littlerally fire my force pulse and animation cancel into medium weaving within .2 second before casting another force pulse .3 second later. I get 4 attack per second where if animation canceling wouldnt exist I would do 1 attack

However I try hard what so ever I do I cant reproduce it manually , I only get 2 attack per second manualy....Its insanly broken..

I understand now how I got killed in cyro with 24k health and about 18k worth shield within 1 second and only 2 attack would appear in my death recap. Was so quick the recap page didnt register the other atack. I only see 10k critical rush and 8k wrecking blow. thats not even my full health bar lol.

Broken as hell

Did you take video of it?

Molsondry

No, it's bad for the game

I wont make a video of me using a software to active an automated rotation . I would run after a suspension....

NewBlacksmurf

Yes, it's good for the game.

It's good for the game. Ppl will always exploit anything and cheat.
ZOS can handle the problems and other players can report other players as it comes up.

I can't imagine trying to play without the ability to cancel a cast or action to block or avoid damage