I can't do it... I can't level anymore. Please remove the Veteran Ranks now instead of waiting.

Varicite · April 2015

Aneima wrote: »

Philelectric wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

I literally cannot stand to level to max again. I'm VR3 (gained V1-V3 doing solo PvP in Cyrodiil) and I cannot PvE for more than 30 seconds without losing complete interest so much so that I either re-enter Cyrodiil, or exit the game.

I know they plan to remove the Veteran Ranks in June, but why wait..? Just do it. I cannot push myself to go through another 100 levels worth of content for a second time...

No video-game should be painful in any aspect, and V1-V14 is just that, painful.

It does NOTHING good for the game. It creates GIGANTIC gaps between players, nothing more, nothing less. That is simply it. A gap creating element.

People who are really only interested in PvP become frustrated because they are nearly worhtless until around V10, and simply feel turned off to the game because they have to PvE.

Players who want to complete in the PvE that really matters (once you've loyally defended your alliance), only want to get sweet gear from dungeon runs (trials, etc.) and compete for top times, raid with friends, etc..

But they're forced to become a traitor and defend the other alliances (which many of us dispise).

ZoS... Please just remove them now. It does NOTHING to help your game. In fact, it really, really just hurts it.

You are not ''max leveling'' again , you are not even max lvl

Lol. I'd be willing to bet once ZOS released a statement about removing vet ranks the majority of players complaining here stopped leveling their mains, switched to alts and now that vet removal still hasn't happened they want it now so they can continue back on their mains. Sadly they are also missing out on CPs by not continuing like many of us did.

It's all really quite hilarious.

Way to generalize everyone, I guess.

It's like saying that everybody who is against VR removal is some old ESO fogey reminiscing about how they had to walk uphill both ways in the snow for a thousand years and now everyone else should do the same.

Enodoc · April 2015

Cuyler wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

completed cadwells gold on 2 char... whats the problem again?

The problem is being forced through it to be viable for Trials/Cyrodiil. If it was optional, it wouldn't be a problem.

Whenever has anyone heard of "Endgame Levelling"? It's a contradiction, but that's what we have in ESO currently. Levelling through a linear Endgame (Cadwell's) to get to a different Endgame (Trials/Craglorn/Cyrodiil). All Endgame activity types should be available as soon as you reach Level 50, without having to do one type before another. That's how Endgame is "supposed" to feel, and that's what the removal of VRs should deliver.

I disagree. Making endgame start at lvl 50 they way it currently is would allow players to complete the game is a week, go do the only 4 endgame dungeons there are and then be finished.

What should of happened is Caldwells Silver and Gold should of had completely separate alliance specific quest lines that continued upon your alliance, not take you through the other ones.

Ok lets say you make 50 the cap, then Lvl 1-50 should take much longer. So when you finish the first 5 zones you're only lvl25, the next five you're lvl40, and the last 5 zones you get lvl50.

Endgame already starts at 50 officially, and 50 is officially the level cap. All Veteran content is Endgame content according to ZOS' original intention, and Veteran Ranked players, despite the differences in power between them, are all Level 50 according to certain in-game systems.

People should absolutely be able to try to run the 8 endgame dungeons straight away, but also try the first 2 trials and DSA at Lvl 50, get creamed, and realise they need better gear. Then they should be able to use any and all of the lower endgame content, including the 8 dungeons, Lower Craglorn, Cyrodiil and Cadwell's Tier 1/2/3 to get the gear they need for Sanctum and Vet DSA. That way, there's still some "harder" endgame content and some "easier" endgame content, but you're not forced into which you do.

Separate alliance-specific quests would not work for Cadwell's, because the entire point of that it to show you the other side of the story. It would be great as an additional set of content though.

The point here is to not force people through the 10 zones of the other alliances, so they should not be part of any levelling curve.

EQBallzz · April 2015

I think a solution that makes more sense would be to scale the trials like they did with dungeons. Even if they didn't scale completely they could have 3 tiers of difficulty that would allow people to start doing them immediately after hitting V1.

Tier1 - V5 difficulty for V1-V5
Tier2 - V10 difficulty for V6-V10
Tier3 - V14 difficulty for V11-V14

Each tier would get progressively harder and drop gear appropriate to the level range which would prepare you for the next tier or you could just level up to max and start at tier 3. It seems like that would satisfy the desire to hit "end game" content sooner without sacrificing the established progression in the game and giving the most flexibility.

Varicite · April 2015

I think there'd need to be more than just this, but it's actually not a bad start.

Destai · April 2015

Seraphyel wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Besides the shortness of the game am i really the only person to see the problems with this?

Why would the removal of the mindless VR grind be a problem? New content could easily still have tacked on levels.

I think as soon as you beat up Molag Bal you should be ready for Craglorn.

Sure but this game has no endcontent. Craglorn is not worth mentioning.

This game has good content from 1-50 but after that there is nothing. That's the issue. Craglorn can entertain you for 2 weeks and then?

I understand what you mean, but as a confirmed alt-o-holic this would not bother me. One of the main reasons i dislike doing the VR levels is not the actual grind itself, but the fact doing quests for opposing factions is just wrong wrong wrong!

Yeah, I know. I hate the whole VR thing but as I said, there is no content. Zenimax did a poor job with developing content beyond 50.

Time and time again, MMOs release with this problem. I don't get it. How many times do we have to see this? It's shameful enough they couldn't include the whole continent of Tamriel as the base game, but this grind seems like a huge problem.

bg22 · April 2015

pan_k wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

completed cadwells gold on 2 char... whats the problem again?

Ah, no problem now, we didn't know you did that. Thanks for sharing this.

So awesome. XD

Enodoc · April 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think a solution that makes more sense would be to scale the trials like they did with dungeons. Even if they didn't scale completely they could have 3 tiers of difficulty that would allow people to start doing them immediately after hitting V1.

Tier1 - V5 difficulty for V1-V5
Tier2 - V10 difficulty for V6-V10
Tier3 - V14 difficulty for V11-V14

Each tier would get progressively harder and drop gear appropriate to the level range which would prepare you for the next tier or you could just level up to max and start at tier 3. It seems like that would satisfy the desire to hit "end game" content sooner without sacrificing the established progression in the game and giving the most flexibility.

That could work quite well, and there's no reason to restrict it just to Trials, as those three levels of scaling could broadly translate to three levels of difficulty in Veteran content. For example:
Tier 1 - V5-equiv Trials, V2-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 1/2/3 Zones, Lower Craglorn
Tier 2 - V10-equiv Trials, V8-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 4/5 Zones, Upper Craglorn, DSA
Tier 3 - VR-equiv Trials, Vet CoA, Vet DSA

That makes all types of Endgame content possible for any Veteran player, with more difficult content logically progressing after easier content, and doable in any order.

EQBallzz · April 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think a solution that makes more sense would be to scale the trials like they did with dungeons. Even if they didn't scale completely they could have 3 tiers of difficulty that would allow people to start doing them immediately after hitting V1.

Tier1 - V5 difficulty for V1-V5
Tier2 - V10 difficulty for V6-V10
Tier3 - V14 difficulty for V11-V14

Each tier would get progressively harder and drop gear appropriate to the level range which would prepare you for the next tier or you could just level up to max and start at tier 3. It seems like that would satisfy the desire to hit "end game" content sooner without sacrificing the established progression in the game and giving the most flexibility.

That could work quite well, and there's no reason to restrict it just to Trials, as those three levels of scaling could broadly translate to three levels of difficulty in Veteran content. For example:
Tier 1 - V5-equiv Trials, V2-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 1/2/3 Zones, Lower Craglorn
Tier 2 - V10-equiv Trials, V8-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 4/5 Zones, Upper Craglorn, DSA
Tier 3 - VR-equiv Trials, Vet CoA, Vet DSA

That makes all types of Endgame content possible for any Veteran player, with more difficult content logically progressing after easier content, and doable in any order.

Yep. I think that would be far more doable. It leaves the progression intact. There is no clusterf**k with the crafting system. It would be a bit of work for them to scale the content in 2 other difficulties but it has to be far less work than trying to condense all the vet levels down to 50 and then explain to people why losing their progression and trivializing the game is a good idea.

People could start doing trials at V1. It would be challenging but doable since the trials would never be more than 4 levels above them. People could do the silver/gold content at their leisure or not at all and just level up in dungeons/trials/pvp. I mean dungeons, quests and pvp already scale so why not trials? Seems like a logical solution.

Minack · April 2015

Aneima wrote: »

Philelectric wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

I literally cannot stand to level to max again. I'm VR3 (gained V1-V3 doing solo PvP in Cyrodiil) and I cannot PvE for more than 30 seconds without losing complete interest so much so that I either re-enter Cyrodiil, or exit the game.

I know they plan to remove the Veteran Ranks in June, but why wait..? Just do it. I cannot push myself to go through another 100 levels worth of content for a second time...

No video-game should be painful in any aspect, and V1-V14 is just that, painful.

It does NOTHING good for the game. It creates GIGANTIC gaps between players, nothing more, nothing less. That is simply it. A gap creating element.

People who are really only interested in PvP become frustrated because they are nearly worhtless until around V10, and simply feel turned off to the game because they have to PvE.

Players who want to complete in the PvE that really matters (once you've loyally defended your alliance), only want to get sweet gear from dungeon runs (trials, etc.) and compete for top times, raid with friends, etc..

But they're forced to become a traitor and defend the other alliances (which many of us dispise).

ZoS... Please just remove them now. It does NOTHING to help your game. In fact, it really, really just hurts it.

You are not ''max leveling'' again , you are not even max lvl

Lol. I'd be willing to bet once ZOS released a statement about removing vet ranks the majority of players complaining here stopped leveling their mains, switched to alts and now that vet removal still hasn't happened they want it now so they can continue back on their mains. Sadly they are also missing out on CPs by not continuing like many of us did.

It's all really quite hilarious.

How is that pile of drivel in any way hilarious?

Varicite · April 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think a solution that makes more sense would be to scale the trials like they did with dungeons. Even if they didn't scale completely they could have 3 tiers of difficulty that would allow people to start doing them immediately after hitting V1.

Tier1 - V5 difficulty for V1-V5
Tier2 - V10 difficulty for V6-V10
Tier3 - V14 difficulty for V11-V14

Each tier would get progressively harder and drop gear appropriate to the level range which would prepare you for the next tier or you could just level up to max and start at tier 3. It seems like that would satisfy the desire to hit "end game" content sooner without sacrificing the established progression in the game and giving the most flexibility.

That could work quite well, and there's no reason to restrict it just to Trials, as those three levels of scaling could broadly translate to three levels of difficulty in Veteran content. For example:
Tier 1 - V5-equiv Trials, V2-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 1/2/3 Zones, Lower Craglorn
Tier 2 - V10-equiv Trials, V8-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 4/5 Zones, Upper Craglorn, DSA
Tier 3 - VR-equiv Trials, Vet CoA, Vet DSA

That makes all types of Endgame content possible for any Veteran player, with more difficult content logically progressing after easier content, and doable in any order.

Yep. I think that would be far more doable. It leaves the progression intact. There is no clusterf**k with the crafting system. It would be a bit of work for them to scale the content in 2 other difficulties but it has to be far less work than trying to condense all the vet levels down to 50 and then explain to people why losing their progression and trivializing the game is a good idea.

People could start doing trials at V1. It would be challenging but doable since the trials would never be more than 4 levels above them. People could do the silver/gold content at their leisure or not at all and just level up in dungeons/trials/pvp. I mean dungeons, quests and pvp already scale so why not trials? Seems like a logical solution.

I think that some of the scaling systems would have to be looked at more thoroughly if they were to go this route, most notably in Cyrodiil where a battle-leveled lv26 or even V1 is still in NO way a match for any competent V14 player.

Remember, I said "competent", I don't care about your stories where your V1 beat up some noob V14 magicka NB spamming Sap Essence or whatever. If a player at the helm of a geared V14 is even remotely worth their salt, you aren't going to beat them on your underleveled toon, period.

Still, I think that suggestions like this are far more helpful than simply stating "dropping people to level 50 can't work bruh, just impossibru", etc. : )

EQBallzz · April 2015

Varicite wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think a solution that makes more sense would be to scale the trials like they did with dungeons. Even if they didn't scale completely they could have 3 tiers of difficulty that would allow people to start doing them immediately after hitting V1.

Tier1 - V5 difficulty for V1-V5
Tier2 - V10 difficulty for V6-V10
Tier3 - V14 difficulty for V11-V14

Each tier would get progressively harder and drop gear appropriate to the level range which would prepare you for the next tier or you could just level up to max and start at tier 3. It seems like that would satisfy the desire to hit "end game" content sooner without sacrificing the established progression in the game and giving the most flexibility.

That could work quite well, and there's no reason to restrict it just to Trials, as those three levels of scaling could broadly translate to three levels of difficulty in Veteran content. For example:
Tier 1 - V5-equiv Trials, V2-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 1/2/3 Zones, Lower Craglorn
Tier 2 - V10-equiv Trials, V8-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 4/5 Zones, Upper Craglorn, DSA
Tier 3 - VR-equiv Trials, Vet CoA, Vet DSA

That makes all types of Endgame content possible for any Veteran player, with more difficult content logically progressing after easier content, and doable in any order.

Yep. I think that would be far more doable. It leaves the progression intact. There is no clusterf**k with the crafting system. It would be a bit of work for them to scale the content in 2 other difficulties but it has to be far less work than trying to condense all the vet levels down to 50 and then explain to people why losing their progression and trivializing the game is a good idea.

People could start doing trials at V1. It would be challenging but doable since the trials would never be more than 4 levels above them. People could do the silver/gold content at their leisure or not at all and just level up in dungeons/trials/pvp. I mean dungeons, quests and pvp already scale so why not trials? Seems like a logical solution.

I think that some of the scaling systems would have to be looked at more thoroughly if they were to go this route, most notably in Cyrodiil where a battle-leveled lv26 or even V1 is still in NO way a match for any competent V14 player.

Remember, I said "competent", I don't care about your stories where your V1 beat up some noob V14 magicka NB spamming Sap Essence or whatever. If a player at the helm of a geared V14 is even remotely worth their salt, you aren't going to beat them on your underleveled toon, period.

Still, I think that suggestions like this are far more helpful than simply stating "dropping people to level 50 can't work bruh, just impossibru", etc. : )

I can't comment on the Cyrodiil balance really because I rarely PvP but players are already scaled in Cyrodiil so it's not really so it's not really something to consider as it's already in place. Whether or not the scaling formula is working is another matter. I'm sure further tweaks are in order and I don't think a V1 character (that will obviously have far less CP) should ever be completely equal to a V14. There still needs to be progression and something to strive towards IMO. Not to say that a V1 should have no chance against a V14 but a diminished chance is certainly expected IMO (even with scaling) because that person has fewer CP and less character development.

In my defense I never used the word "bruh" and I still think dropping people to 50 won't work (or won't work well) which my suggestion clearly demonstrates.

bg22 · April 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think a solution that makes more sense would be to scale the trials like they did with dungeons. Even if they didn't scale completely they could have 3 tiers of difficulty that would allow people to start doing them immediately after hitting V1.

Tier1 - V5 difficulty for V1-V5
Tier2 - V10 difficulty for V6-V10
Tier3 - V14 difficulty for V11-V14

Each tier would get progressively harder and drop gear appropriate to the level range which would prepare you for the next tier or you could just level up to max and start at tier 3. It seems like that would satisfy the desire to hit "end game" content sooner without sacrificing the established progression in the game and giving the most flexibility.

That could work quite well, and there's no reason to restrict it just to Trials, as those three levels of scaling could broadly translate to three levels of difficulty in Veteran content. For example:
Tier 1 - V5-equiv Trials, V2-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 1/2/3 Zones, Lower Craglorn
Tier 2 - V10-equiv Trials, V8-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 4/5 Zones, Upper Craglorn, DSA
Tier 3 - VR-equiv Trials, Vet CoA, Vet DSA

That makes all types of Endgame content possible for any Veteran player, with more difficult content logically progressing after easier content, and doable in any order.

Yep. I think that would be far more doable. It leaves the progression intact. There is no clusterf**k with the crafting system. It would be a bit of work for them to scale the content in 2 other difficulties but it has to be far less work than trying to condense all the vet levels down to 50 and then explain to people why losing their progression and trivializing the game is a good idea.

People could start doing trials at V1. It would be challenging but doable since the trials would never be more than 4 levels above them. People could do the silver/gold content at their leisure or not at all and just level up in dungeons/trials/pvp. I mean dungeons, quests and pvp already scale so why not trials? Seems like a logical solution.

I think that some of the scaling systems would have to be looked at more thoroughly if they were to go this route, most notably in Cyrodiil where a battle-leveled lv26 or even V1 is still in NO way a match for any competent V14 player.

Remember, I said "competent", I don't care about your stories where your V1 beat up some noob V14 magicka NB spamming Sap Essence or whatever. If a player at the helm of a geared V14 is even remotely worth their salt, you aren't going to beat them on your underleveled toon, period.

Still, I think that suggestions like this are far more helpful than simply stating "dropping people to level 50 can't work bruh, just impossibru", etc. : )

I can't comment on the Cyrodiil balance really because I rarely PvP but players are already scaled in Cyrodiil so it's not really so it's not really something to consider as it's already in place. Whether or not the scaling formula is working is another matter. I'm sure further tweaks are in order and I don't think a V1 character (that will obviously have far less CP) should ever be completely equal to a V14. There still needs to be progression and something to strive towards IMO. Not to say that a V1 should have no chance against a V14 but a diminished chance is certainly expected IMO (even with scaling) because that person has fewer CP and less character development.

In my defense I never used the word "bruh" and I still think dropping people to 50 won't work (or won't work well) which my suggestion clearly demonstrates.

What I don't understand is that people think that a level with a number means you have something to strive for. All this does is prolong you getting to the point where you actually have something to work (play) for.

Something to strive for would be hitting 50, then having to take months to aquire a specific set of gear.. or titles in pvp (which are there).

EQBallzz · April 2015

bg22 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think a solution that makes more sense would be to scale the trials like they did with dungeons. Even if they didn't scale completely they could have 3 tiers of difficulty that would allow people to start doing them immediately after hitting V1.

Tier1 - V5 difficulty for V1-V5
Tier2 - V10 difficulty for V6-V10
Tier3 - V14 difficulty for V11-V14

Each tier would get progressively harder and drop gear appropriate to the level range which would prepare you for the next tier or you could just level up to max and start at tier 3. It seems like that would satisfy the desire to hit "end game" content sooner without sacrificing the established progression in the game and giving the most flexibility.

That could work quite well, and there's no reason to restrict it just to Trials, as those three levels of scaling could broadly translate to three levels of difficulty in Veteran content. For example:
Tier 1 - V5-equiv Trials, V2-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 1/2/3 Zones, Lower Craglorn
Tier 2 - V10-equiv Trials, V8-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 4/5 Zones, Upper Craglorn, DSA
Tier 3 - VR-equiv Trials, Vet CoA, Vet DSA

That makes all types of Endgame content possible for any Veteran player, with more difficult content logically progressing after easier content, and doable in any order.

Yep. I think that would be far more doable. It leaves the progression intact. There is no clusterf**k with the crafting system. It would be a bit of work for them to scale the content in 2 other difficulties but it has to be far less work than trying to condense all the vet levels down to 50 and then explain to people why losing their progression and trivializing the game is a good idea.

People could start doing trials at V1. It would be challenging but doable since the trials would never be more than 4 levels above them. People could do the silver/gold content at their leisure or not at all and just level up in dungeons/trials/pvp. I mean dungeons, quests and pvp already scale so why not trials? Seems like a logical solution.

I think that some of the scaling systems would have to be looked at more thoroughly if they were to go this route, most notably in Cyrodiil where a battle-leveled lv26 or even V1 is still in NO way a match for any competent V14 player.

Remember, I said "competent", I don't care about your stories where your V1 beat up some noob V14 magicka NB spamming Sap Essence or whatever. If a player at the helm of a geared V14 is even remotely worth their salt, you aren't going to beat them on your underleveled toon, period.

Still, I think that suggestions like this are far more helpful than simply stating "dropping people to level 50 can't work bruh, just impossibru", etc. : )

I can't comment on the Cyrodiil balance really because I rarely PvP but players are already scaled in Cyrodiil so it's not really so it's not really something to consider as it's already in place. Whether or not the scaling formula is working is another matter. I'm sure further tweaks are in order and I don't think a V1 character (that will obviously have far less CP) should ever be completely equal to a V14. There still needs to be progression and something to strive towards IMO. Not to say that a V1 should have no chance against a V14 but a diminished chance is certainly expected IMO (even with scaling) because that person has fewer CP and less character development.

In my defense I never used the word "bruh" and I still think dropping people to 50 won't work (or won't work well) which my suggestion clearly demonstrates.

What I don't understand is that people think that a level with a number means you have something to strive for. All this does is prolong you getting to the point where you actually have something to work (play) for.

Something to strive for would be hitting 50, then having to take months to aquire a specific set of gear.. or titles in pvp (which are there).

That argument goes both ways. If there is nothing of value to strive for beyond 50 then why even go to 50 in the first place? Just make everyone level 1 and then everyone is equal. Make all gear cosmetic so nobody has any advantage. Give everyone the same skills so there is no class balance issues. Starting to sound pretty boring to me.

The argument for progression to 50 is the same one for AP in the PvP system and the one for vet ranks or champion points. It's a progression system which requires time and effort playing to advance. There are certainly games that don't have leveling in the classic sense (I think Skyforge will be like this) and games with little gear difference at any level (GW2) so it's perfectly viable to have those elements but in a game based around progression that uses gear itemization I don't get the argument for doing away with those elements. ESO is a progression game with gear itemization so why would you argue against them? I get the argument to make them more fair or balanced or even streamlined but remove them? No.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2015

Aneima wrote: »

Philelectric wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

I literally cannot stand to level to max again. I'm VR3 (gained V1-V3 doing solo PvP in Cyrodiil) and I cannot PvE for more than 30 seconds without losing complete interest so much so that I either re-enter Cyrodiil, or exit the game.

I know they plan to remove the Veteran Ranks in June, but why wait..? Just do it. I cannot push myself to go through another 100 levels worth of content for a second time...

No video-game should be painful in any aspect, and V1-V14 is just that, painful.

It does NOTHING good for the game. It creates GIGANTIC gaps between players, nothing more, nothing less. That is simply it. A gap creating element.

People who are really only interested in PvP become frustrated because they are nearly worhtless until around V10, and simply feel turned off to the game because they have to PvE.

Players who want to complete in the PvE that really matters (once you've loyally defended your alliance), only want to get sweet gear from dungeon runs (trials, etc.) and compete for top times, raid with friends, etc..

But they're forced to become a traitor and defend the other alliances (which many of us dispise).

ZoS... Please just remove them now. It does NOTHING to help your game. In fact, it really, really just hurts it.

You are not ''max leveling'' again , you are not even max lvl

Lol. I'd be willing to bet once ZOS released a statement about removing vet ranks the majority of players complaining here stopped leveling their mains, switched to alts and now that vet removal still hasn't happened they want it now so they can continue back on their mains. Sadly they are also missing out on CPs by not continuing like many of us did.

It's all really quite hilarious.

That's how much we don't like VR levels or the lack of content. Ppl are tired of the same ol sssss

Unless you PvP or are already VR10+ why force yourself to do anything you won't enjoy

bg22 · April 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think a solution that makes more sense would be to scale the trials like they did with dungeons. Even if they didn't scale completely they could have 3 tiers of difficulty that would allow people to start doing them immediately after hitting V1.

Tier1 - V5 difficulty for V1-V5
Tier2 - V10 difficulty for V6-V10
Tier3 - V14 difficulty for V11-V14

Each tier would get progressively harder and drop gear appropriate to the level range which would prepare you for the next tier or you could just level up to max and start at tier 3. It seems like that would satisfy the desire to hit "end game" content sooner without sacrificing the established progression in the game and giving the most flexibility.

That could work quite well, and there's no reason to restrict it just to Trials, as those three levels of scaling could broadly translate to three levels of difficulty in Veteran content. For example:
Tier 1 - V5-equiv Trials, V2-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 1/2/3 Zones, Lower Craglorn
Tier 2 - V10-equiv Trials, V8-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 4/5 Zones, Upper Craglorn, DSA
Tier 3 - VR-equiv Trials, Vet CoA, Vet DSA

That makes all types of Endgame content possible for any Veteran player, with more difficult content logically progressing after easier content, and doable in any order.

Yep. I think that would be far more doable. It leaves the progression intact. There is no clusterf**k with the crafting system. It would be a bit of work for them to scale the content in 2 other difficulties but it has to be far less work than trying to condense all the vet levels down to 50 and then explain to people why losing their progression and trivializing the game is a good idea.

People could start doing trials at V1. It would be challenging but doable since the trials would never be more than 4 levels above them. People could do the silver/gold content at their leisure or not at all and just level up in dungeons/trials/pvp. I mean dungeons, quests and pvp already scale so why not trials? Seems like a logical solution.

I think that some of the scaling systems would have to be looked at more thoroughly if they were to go this route, most notably in Cyrodiil where a battle-leveled lv26 or even V1 is still in NO way a match for any competent V14 player.

Remember, I said "competent", I don't care about your stories where your V1 beat up some noob V14 magicka NB spamming Sap Essence or whatever. If a player at the helm of a geared V14 is even remotely worth their salt, you aren't going to beat them on your underleveled toon, period.

Still, I think that suggestions like this are far more helpful than simply stating "dropping people to level 50 can't work bruh, just impossibru", etc. : )

I can't comment on the Cyrodiil balance really because I rarely PvP but players are already scaled in Cyrodiil so it's not really so it's not really something to consider as it's already in place. Whether or not the scaling formula is working is another matter. I'm sure further tweaks are in order and I don't think a V1 character (that will obviously have far less CP) should ever be completely equal to a V14. There still needs to be progression and something to strive towards IMO. Not to say that a V1 should have no chance against a V14 but a diminished chance is certainly expected IMO (even with scaling) because that person has fewer CP and less character development.

In my defense I never used the word "bruh" and I still think dropping people to 50 won't work (or won't work well) which my suggestion clearly demonstrates.

What I don't understand is that people think that a level with a number means you have something to strive for. All this does is prolong you getting to the point where you actually have something to work (play) for.

Something to strive for would be hitting 50, then having to take months to aquire a specific set of gear.. or titles in pvp (which are there).

That argument goes both ways. If there is nothing of value to strive for beyond 50 then why even go to 50 in the first place? Just make everyone level 1 and then everyone is equal. Make all gear cosmetic so nobody has any advantage. Give everyone the same skills so there is no class balance issues. Starting to sound pretty boring to me.

The argument for progression to 50 is the same one for AP in the PvP system and the one for vet ranks or champion points. It's a progression system which requires time and effort playing to advance. There are certainly games that don't have leveling in the classic sense (I think Skyforge will be like this) and games with little gear difference at any level (GW2) so it's perfectly viable to have those elements but in a game based around progression that uses gear itemization I don't get the argument for doing away with those elements. ESO is a progression game with gear itemization so why would you argue against them? I get the argument to make them more fair or balanced or even streamlined but remove them? No.

Uhhhh... no.

Reread my post i suppose. I'm not typing it over again.

And for someone that's been here for a while, I can't believe you don't realize that the game doesn't open up until V14.

EQBallzz · April 2015

bg22 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think a solution that makes more sense would be to scale the trials like they did with dungeons. Even if they didn't scale completely they could have 3 tiers of difficulty that would allow people to start doing them immediately after hitting V1.

Tier1 - V5 difficulty for V1-V5
Tier2 - V10 difficulty for V6-V10
Tier3 - V14 difficulty for V11-V14

Each tier would get progressively harder and drop gear appropriate to the level range which would prepare you for the next tier or you could just level up to max and start at tier 3. It seems like that would satisfy the desire to hit "end game" content sooner without sacrificing the established progression in the game and giving the most flexibility.

That could work quite well, and there's no reason to restrict it just to Trials, as those three levels of scaling could broadly translate to three levels of difficulty in Veteran content. For example:
Tier 1 - V5-equiv Trials, V2-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 1/2/3 Zones, Lower Craglorn
Tier 2 - V10-equiv Trials, V8-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 4/5 Zones, Upper Craglorn, DSA
Tier 3 - VR-equiv Trials, Vet CoA, Vet DSA

That makes all types of Endgame content possible for any Veteran player, with more difficult content logically progressing after easier content, and doable in any order.

Yep. I think that would be far more doable. It leaves the progression intact. There is no clusterf**k with the crafting system. It would be a bit of work for them to scale the content in 2 other difficulties but it has to be far less work than trying to condense all the vet levels down to 50 and then explain to people why losing their progression and trivializing the game is a good idea.

People could start doing trials at V1. It would be challenging but doable since the trials would never be more than 4 levels above them. People could do the silver/gold content at their leisure or not at all and just level up in dungeons/trials/pvp. I mean dungeons, quests and pvp already scale so why not trials? Seems like a logical solution.

I think that some of the scaling systems would have to be looked at more thoroughly if they were to go this route, most notably in Cyrodiil where a battle-leveled lv26 or even V1 is still in NO way a match for any competent V14 player.

Remember, I said "competent", I don't care about your stories where your V1 beat up some noob V14 magicka NB spamming Sap Essence or whatever. If a player at the helm of a geared V14 is even remotely worth their salt, you aren't going to beat them on your underleveled toon, period.

Still, I think that suggestions like this are far more helpful than simply stating "dropping people to level 50 can't work bruh, just impossibru", etc. : )

I can't comment on the Cyrodiil balance really because I rarely PvP but players are already scaled in Cyrodiil so it's not really so it's not really something to consider as it's already in place. Whether or not the scaling formula is working is another matter. I'm sure further tweaks are in order and I don't think a V1 character (that will obviously have far less CP) should ever be completely equal to a V14. There still needs to be progression and something to strive towards IMO. Not to say that a V1 should have no chance against a V14 but a diminished chance is certainly expected IMO (even with scaling) because that person has fewer CP and less character development.

In my defense I never used the word "bruh" and I still think dropping people to 50 won't work (or won't work well) which my suggestion clearly demonstrates.

What I don't understand is that people think that a level with a number means you have something to strive for. All this does is prolong you getting to the point where you actually have something to work (play) for.

Something to strive for would be hitting 50, then having to take months to aquire a specific set of gear.. or titles in pvp (which are there).

That argument goes both ways. If there is nothing of value to strive for beyond 50 then why even go to 50 in the first place? Just make everyone level 1 and then everyone is equal. Make all gear cosmetic so nobody has any advantage. Give everyone the same skills so there is no class balance issues. Starting to sound pretty boring to me.

The argument for progression to 50 is the same one for AP in the PvP system and the one for vet ranks or champion points. It's a progression system which requires time and effort playing to advance. There are certainly games that don't have leveling in the classic sense (I think Skyforge will be like this) and games with little gear difference at any level (GW2) so it's perfectly viable to have those elements but in a game based around progression that uses gear itemization I don't get the argument for doing away with those elements. ESO is a progression game with gear itemization so why would you argue against them? I get the argument to make them more fair or balanced or even streamlined but remove them? No.

Uhhhh... no.

Reread my post i suppose. I'm not typing it over again.

And for someone that's been here for a while, I can't believe you don't realize that the game doesn't open up until V14.

I don't need to re-read anything. The degree to which the game "opens up" at V14 is somewhat subjective depending on what you enjoy doing in the game but to the extent that you are referring to trials and *competitive* PvP then yes it does. This still gets to the issue of this being a progression based game. I get it. You feel like you're special and shouldn't have to level up like everyone else did to be competitive. I have news for you..with champ points you will experience the same issue whether the cap is 50 or V14. That's the nature of a progression based system so better get used to it. This isn't GW2 thank god.

I realize some also want to have access to the trials sooner. There is an easy solution to that and I suggested it above. Perhaps you're the one that needs to do some re-reading. Just scale the trials like they already scale 4 man dungeons and PvP. It's far simpler than trying to remove vet levels and it keeps current player progression intact. Problem solved. You're welcome.

Enodoc · April 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think a solution that makes more sense would be to scale the trials like they did with dungeons. Even if they didn't scale completely they could have 3 tiers of difficulty that would allow people to start doing them immediately after hitting V1.

Tier1 - V5 difficulty for V1-V5
Tier2 - V10 difficulty for V6-V10
Tier3 - V14 difficulty for V11-V14

Each tier would get progressively harder and drop gear appropriate to the level range which would prepare you for the next tier or you could just level up to max and start at tier 3. It seems like that would satisfy the desire to hit "end game" content sooner without sacrificing the established progression in the game and giving the most flexibility.

That could work quite well, and there's no reason to restrict it just to Trials, as those three levels of scaling could broadly translate to three levels of difficulty in Veteran content. For example:
Tier 1 - V5-equiv Trials, V2-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 1/2/3 Zones, Lower Craglorn
Tier 2 - V10-equiv Trials, V8-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 4/5 Zones, Upper Craglorn, DSA
Tier 3 - VR-equiv Trials, Vet CoA, Vet DSA

That makes all types of Endgame content possible for any Veteran player, with more difficult content logically progressing after easier content, and doable in any order.

Yep. I think that would be far more doable. It leaves the progression intact. There is no clusterf**k with the crafting system. It would be a bit of work for them to scale the content in 2 other difficulties but it has to be far less work than trying to condense all the vet levels down to 50 and then explain to people why losing their progression and trivializing the game is a good idea.

People could start doing trials at V1. It would be challenging but doable since the trials would never be more than 4 levels above them. People could do the silver/gold content at their leisure or not at all and just level up in dungeons/trials/pvp. I mean dungeons, quests and pvp already scale so why not trials? Seems like a logical solution.

I think that some of the scaling systems would have to be looked at more thoroughly if they were to go this route, most notably in Cyrodiil where a battle-leveled lv26 or even V1 is still in NO way a match for any competent V14 player.

Remember, I said "competent", I don't care about your stories where your V1 beat up some noob V14 magicka NB spamming Sap Essence or whatever. If a player at the helm of a geared V14 is even remotely worth their salt, you aren't going to beat them on your underleveled toon, period.

Still, I think that suggestions like this are far more helpful than simply stating "dropping people to level 50 can't work bruh, just impossibru", etc. : )

I can't comment on the Cyrodiil balance really because I rarely PvP but players are already scaled in Cyrodiil so it's not really so it's not really something to consider as it's already in place. Whether or not the scaling formula is working is another matter. I'm sure further tweaks are in order and I don't think a V1 character (that will obviously have far less CP) should ever be completely equal to a V14. There still needs to be progression and something to strive towards IMO. Not to say that a V1 should have no chance against a V14 but a diminished chance is certainly expected IMO (even with scaling) because that person has fewer CP and less character development.

In my defense I never used the word "bruh" and I still think dropping people to 50 won't work (or won't work well) which my suggestion clearly demonstrates.

What I don't understand is that people think that a level with a number means you have something to strive for. All this does is prolong you getting to the point where you actually have something to work (play) for.

Something to strive for would be hitting 50, then having to take months to aquire a specific set of gear.. or titles in pvp (which are there).

That argument goes both ways. If there is nothing of value to strive for beyond 50 then why even go to 50 in the first place? Just make everyone level 1 and then everyone is equal. Make all gear cosmetic so nobody has any advantage. Give everyone the same skills so there is no class balance issues. Starting to sound pretty boring to me.

The argument for progression to 50 is the same one for AP in the PvP system and the one for vet ranks or champion points. It's a progression system which requires time and effort playing to advance. There are certainly games that don't have leveling in the classic sense (I think Skyforge will be like this) and games with little gear difference at any level (GW2) so it's perfectly viable to have those elements but in a game based around progression that uses gear itemization I don't get the argument for doing away with those elements. ESO is a progression game with gear itemization so why would you argue against them? I get the argument to make them more fair or balanced or even streamlined but remove them? No.

Uhhhh... no.

Reread my post i suppose. I'm not typing it over again.

And for someone that's been here for a while, I can't believe you don't realize that the game doesn't open up until V14.

I don't need to re-read anything. The degree to which the game "opens up" at V14 is somewhat subjective depending on what you enjoy doing in the game but to the extent that you are referring to trials and *competitive* PvP then yes it does. This still gets to the issue of this being a progression based game. I get it. You feel like you're special and shouldn't have to level up like everyone else did to be competitive. I have news for you..with champ points you will experience the same issue whether the cap is 50 or V14. That's the nature of a progression based system so better get used to it. This isn't GW2 thank god.

I realize some also want to have access to the trials sooner. There is an easy solution to that and I suggested it above. Perhaps you're the one that needs to do some re-reading. Just scale the trials like they already scale 4 man dungeons and PvP. It's far simpler than trying to remove vet levels and it keeps current player progression intact. Problem solved. You're welcome.

You guys are arguing a semantic over a premise on which I think you actually agree. bg22 doesn't want to have nothing to strive for after 50; they said a level with a number is arbitrary after 50, whereas the things to really strive for at that time are gear and PvP titles. EQBallzz also says that progression post-50 is important, and tiered scaling would achieve this.

Regardless, tiered scaling doesn't rely on actually having the Veteran Ranks themselves, just different power levels. And the attribute points, skill points and champion points you get during Veteran content will still be there when the ranks are not, so the effective power levels, to an extent, will remain.

What I don't understand is how removal of VRs will actually reduce the separation between players when the attribute points and skill points from them will be staying...

Edit: Rather, how it will reduce the content separation is obvious, but how it will reduce the power separation is not.

EQBallzz · April 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think a solution that makes more sense would be to scale the trials like they did with dungeons. Even if they didn't scale completely they could have 3 tiers of difficulty that would allow people to start doing them immediately after hitting V1.

Tier1 - V5 difficulty for V1-V5
Tier2 - V10 difficulty for V6-V10
Tier3 - V14 difficulty for V11-V14

Each tier would get progressively harder and drop gear appropriate to the level range which would prepare you for the next tier or you could just level up to max and start at tier 3. It seems like that would satisfy the desire to hit "end game" content sooner without sacrificing the established progression in the game and giving the most flexibility.

That could work quite well, and there's no reason to restrict it just to Trials, as those three levels of scaling could broadly translate to three levels of difficulty in Veteran content. For example:
Tier 1 - V5-equiv Trials, V2-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 1/2/3 Zones, Lower Craglorn
Tier 2 - V10-equiv Trials, V8-equiv Dungeons, Cadwell's Tier 4/5 Zones, Upper Craglorn, DSA
Tier 3 - VR-equiv Trials, Vet CoA, Vet DSA

That makes all types of Endgame content possible for any Veteran player, with more difficult content logically progressing after easier content, and doable in any order.

Yep. I think that would be far more doable. It leaves the progression intact. There is no clusterf**k with the crafting system. It would be a bit of work for them to scale the content in 2 other difficulties but it has to be far less work than trying to condense all the vet levels down to 50 and then explain to people why losing their progression and trivializing the game is a good idea.

People could start doing trials at V1. It would be challenging but doable since the trials would never be more than 4 levels above them. People could do the silver/gold content at their leisure or not at all and just level up in dungeons/trials/pvp. I mean dungeons, quests and pvp already scale so why not trials? Seems like a logical solution.

I think that some of the scaling systems would have to be looked at more thoroughly if they were to go this route, most notably in Cyrodiil where a battle-leveled lv26 or even V1 is still in NO way a match for any competent V14 player.

Remember, I said "competent", I don't care about your stories where your V1 beat up some noob V14 magicka NB spamming Sap Essence or whatever. If a player at the helm of a geared V14 is even remotely worth their salt, you aren't going to beat them on your underleveled toon, period.

Still, I think that suggestions like this are far more helpful than simply stating "dropping people to level 50 can't work bruh, just impossibru", etc. : )

I can't comment on the Cyrodiil balance really because I rarely PvP but players are already scaled in Cyrodiil so it's not really so it's not really something to consider as it's already in place. Whether or not the scaling formula is working is another matter. I'm sure further tweaks are in order and I don't think a V1 character (that will obviously have far less CP) should ever be completely equal to a V14. There still needs to be progression and something to strive towards IMO. Not to say that a V1 should have no chance against a V14 but a diminished chance is certainly expected IMO (even with scaling) because that person has fewer CP and less character development.

In my defense I never used the word "bruh" and I still think dropping people to 50 won't work (or won't work well) which my suggestion clearly demonstrates.

What I don't understand is that people think that a level with a number means you have something to strive for. All this does is prolong you getting to the point where you actually have something to work (play) for.

Something to strive for would be hitting 50, then having to take months to aquire a specific set of gear.. or titles in pvp (which are there).

That argument goes both ways. If there is nothing of value to strive for beyond 50 then why even go to 50 in the first place? Just make everyone level 1 and then everyone is equal. Make all gear cosmetic so nobody has any advantage. Give everyone the same skills so there is no class balance issues. Starting to sound pretty boring to me.

The argument for progression to 50 is the same one for AP in the PvP system and the one for vet ranks or champion points. It's a progression system which requires time and effort playing to advance. There are certainly games that don't have leveling in the classic sense (I think Skyforge will be like this) and games with little gear difference at any level (GW2) so it's perfectly viable to have those elements but in a game based around progression that uses gear itemization I don't get the argument for doing away with those elements. ESO is a progression game with gear itemization so why would you argue against them? I get the argument to make them more fair or balanced or even streamlined but remove them? No.

Uhhhh... no.

Reread my post i suppose. I'm not typing it over again.

And for someone that's been here for a while, I can't believe you don't realize that the game doesn't open up until V14.

I don't need to re-read anything. The degree to which the game "opens up" at V14 is somewhat subjective depending on what you enjoy doing in the game but to the extent that you are referring to trials and *competitive* PvP then yes it does. This still gets to the issue of this being a progression based game. I get it. You feel like you're special and shouldn't have to level up like everyone else did to be competitive. I have news for you..with champ points you will experience the same issue whether the cap is 50 or V14. That's the nature of a progression based system so better get used to it. This isn't GW2 thank god.

I realize some also want to have access to the trials sooner. There is an easy solution to that and I suggested it above. Perhaps you're the one that needs to do some re-reading. Just scale the trials like they already scale 4 man dungeons and PvP. It's far simpler than trying to remove vet levels and it keeps current player progression intact. Problem solved. You're welcome.

You guys are arguing a semantic over a premise on which I think you actually agree. bg22 doesn't want to have nothing to strive for after 50; they said a level with a number is arbitrary after 50, whereas the things to really strive for at that time are gear and PvP titles. EQBallzz also says that progression post-50 is important, and tiered scaling would achieve this.

Regardless, tiered scaling doesn't rely on actually having the Veteran Ranks themselves, just different power levels. And the attribute points, skill points and champion points you get during Veteran content will still be there when the ranks are not, so the effective power levels, to an extent, will remain.

What I don't understand is how removal of VRs will actually reduce the separation between players when the attribute points and skill points from them will be staying...

Edit: Rather, how it will reduce the content separation is obvious, but how it will reduce the power separation is not.

That is exactly my point. If they remove vet levels but replace them with "normal" levels or tie the progression to the champ system with tiers it won't make any difference in player power separation which is the chief complaint of people who want the vet levels removed. Add on top of that the separation of players being created by the champ system and it's obvious that there will never be player power equity by any stretch of the imagination.

wraith808 · April 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

That is exactly my point. If they remove vet levels but replace them with "normal" levels or tie the progression to the champ system with tiers it won't make any difference in player power separation which is the chief complaint of people who want the vet levels removed. Add on top of that the separation of players being created by the champ system and it's obvious that there will never be player power equity by any stretch of the imagination.

What will that solve? That's what I don't get by that argument... whether they are 51+ or VR1+, they're still levels. People are still looking at the semantics of it rather than the actual problem. The problem isn't where the end is, nor is it what they're called. It's how you get them, and what they offer.

The problem with the post-50 game is the fact that there is a lot of mandatory content to get to the level where your character is perceived to be competent to engage in endgame content, whereas post-50 should be perceived as endgame.

To that issue, there are a few underlying problems:

1. There are three real ways to get to the end: questing, pvp, and grinding.
2. The three ways are not equal in the XP they give.
3. They are trying to limit certain ways, instead of bringing all into parity.
4. There is an artificial inflation of the XP required.
5. The reward for going through the pain of getting the XP is not relative to how much XP you've received.
6. in competitive player vs. player environments (whether this be ranking or direct PvP) the difference in power achieved by a lack of caps is perceived to be a very large difference.
7. removing progression and making a cap achievable after a short period of timewill stagnate the game for those that reach the cap.

Those are the issues IMO, and removing the Veteran levels will in the end solve none of them. They are a convenient scapegoat.

AlnilamE · April 2015

Anoteros wrote: »

Ysne58 wrote: »

I'm still not seeing how they can remove vet levels without screwing this up. It would be a lot easier to handle and feel much less grindy if there were other options (new content please please please).

Convert the vet ranks into CP, add some gear tiers, scale the content accordingly, increase level cap to 60 or whatever, open up the world from the get go. This is supposed to be Tamriel 'Unlimited' right? All I see is corridor progression through zones. Hardly unlimited.
See it's not that difficult to think of solutions.

psufan5 wrote: »

1. Start gaining CP at level 1
2. Remove VR levels, and give players 70 CP points to compensate.

This has already happened. ZOS stated that the CP we got at the start of the Champion System launch was all we were getting for our Vet ranks. When they remove vet ranks, there is not going to be any additional CP handed out.

EQBallzz · April 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

That is exactly my point. If they remove vet levels but replace them with "normal" levels or tie the progression to the champ system with tiers it won't make any difference in player power separation which is the chief complaint of people who want the vet levels removed. Add on top of that the separation of players being created by the champ system and it's obvious that there will never be player power equity by any stretch of the imagination.

What will that solve? That's what I don't get by that argument... whether they are 51+ or VR1+, they're still levels. People are still looking at the semantics of it rather than the actual problem. The problem isn't where the end is, nor is it what they're called. It's how you get them, and what they offer.

The problem with the post-50 game is the fact that there is a lot of mandatory content to get to the level where your character is perceived to be competent to engage in endgame content, whereas post-50 should be perceived as endgame.

To that issue, there are a few underlying problems:

1. There are three real ways to get to the end: questing, pvp, and grinding.
2. The three ways are not equal in the XP they give.
3. They are trying to limit certain ways, instead of bringing all into parity.
4. There is an artificial inflation of the XP required.
5. The reward for going through the pain of getting the XP is not relative to how much XP you've received.
6. in competitive player vs. player environments (whether this be ranking or direct PvP) the difference in power achieved by a lack of caps is perceived to be a very large difference.
7. removing progression and making a cap achievable after a short period of timewill stagnate the game for those that reach the cap.

Those are the issues IMO, and removing the Veteran levels will in the end solve none of them. They are a convenient scapegoat.

Yeah, it won't solve anything. That's what people are not getting who want vet levels removed. The problem is that the current game progression is entirely built around vet levels. Crafting. PvE. Gear. Trials. PvP. If you were to remove them without transferring that progression to something else you would essentially be removing a huge amount of progression from players. I don't think that is going to happen.

However, the complaint people have about not being able to access "end game" content until they slog through vet levels can be remedied by other means. Scale the trials like I mentioned before. Streamline the vet levels by reducing max level to V10. Give better XP for more varied activities so people don't feel forced into one thing. This would accomplish the same goal without removing any progression.

wraith808 · April 2015

AlnilamE wrote: »

Anoteros wrote: »

Ysne58 wrote: »

I'm still not seeing how they can remove vet levels without screwing this up. It would be a lot easier to handle and feel much less grindy if there were other options (new content please please please).

Convert the vet ranks into CP, add some gear tiers, scale the content accordingly, increase level cap to 60 or whatever, open up the world from the get go. This is supposed to be Tamriel 'Unlimited' right? All I see is corridor progression through zones. Hardly unlimited.
See it's not that difficult to think of solutions.

psufan5 wrote: »

1. Start gaining CP at level 1
2. Remove VR levels, and give players 70 CP points to compensate.

This has already happened. ZOS stated that the CP we got at the start of the Champion System launch was all we were getting for our Vet ranks. When they remove vet ranks, there is not going to be any additional CP handed out.

They can't *just* do that. They've already said that the stat and skill points are not going to be taken away. So... is there going to be a gap that can *never* be closed? 70 CP, you can get those, and they are a consideration for the time already spent, and the lesser number of XP that can realistically be gained from content as you've already done the content. But if you remove those levels, then those skill and stat points that are different because of it can never be gained.

Don't look at what they're saying, look at the hidden ramifications. Then you begin to see that it's not easy, and not a simple fix.

wraith808 · April 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

That is exactly my point. If they remove vet levels but replace them with "normal" levels or tie the progression to the champ system with tiers it won't make any difference in player power separation which is the chief complaint of people who want the vet levels removed. Add on top of that the separation of players being created by the champ system and it's obvious that there will never be player power equity by any stretch of the imagination.

What will that solve? That's what I don't get by that argument... whether they are 51+ or VR1+, they're still levels. People are still looking at the semantics of it rather than the actual problem. The problem isn't where the end is, nor is it what they're called. It's how you get them, and what they offer.

The problem with the post-50 game is the fact that there is a lot of mandatory content to get to the level where your character is perceived to be competent to engage in endgame content, whereas post-50 should be perceived as endgame.

To that issue, there are a few underlying problems:

1. There are three real ways to get to the end: questing, pvp, and grinding.
2. The three ways are not equal in the XP they give.
3. They are trying to limit certain ways, instead of bringing all into parity.
4. There is an artificial inflation of the XP required.
5. The reward for going through the pain of getting the XP is not relative to how much XP you've received.
6. in competitive player vs. player environments (whether this be ranking or direct PvP) the difference in power achieved by a lack of caps is perceived to be a very large difference.
7. removing progression and making a cap achievable after a short period of timewill stagnate the game for those that reach the cap.

Those are the issues IMO, and removing the Veteran levels will in the end solve none of them. They are a convenient scapegoat.

Yeah, it won't solve anything. That's what people are not getting who want vet levels removed. The problem is that the current game progression is entirely built around vet levels. Crafting. PvE. Gear. Trials. PvP. If you were to remove them without transferring that progression to something else you would essentially be removing a huge amount of progression from players. I don't think that is going to happen.

However, the complaint people have about not being able to access "end game" content until they slog through vet levels can be remedied by other means. Scale the trials like I mentioned before. Streamline the vet levels by reducing max level to V10. Give better XP for more varied activities so people don't feel forced into one thing. This would accomplish the same goal without removing any progression.

Totally agree other than the reducing vet levels. Instead, change the scale. That way, people that have achieved VR14 (which I'm not one) will still keep their progression, and those that haven't can get there with less of a hassle.

Rune_Relic · April 2015

I agree CS and Vet are both vertcial progression.
OK CS has diminshing return but its a token gesture as the POINT gain is LINEAR even if the value is not.
So you are pretty much jumping out the frying pan and into the fire.

YET...the CS system is designed on the premise everyone with be Max level 50.
So you can access all content at level 50 rather than V14.
Will everyone be competitive ? No as they wont be capped at V14 anymore. Nor will they be capped at Level 50.
It will be Level 50 + varying levels of CP that will leave people hopelessly mismatched in the long run and content that cant be matched to anyone.
So you will end up with a tier system of CS points or CS has to be changed to a horizontal system and allow balanced playstyle gains and not power gains.

Do I prefer CS vertical progression rather than Vet vertical progression....yes.
I cant criticise the sytem design as I think it wonderful as a vertical design [just not appropriate]
Doesnt mean for an instant that it fixes the problems though.

I_killed_Vivec · April 2015

People want progression.

People want to be competitive.

It's a circle that can't be squared.

Heromofo · April 2015

Veteran ranks never bothered me and my mates. What made us leave first time around as im giving it a second go for console. It is the massive breaking story that you become heroes of your enemies sides. Id be more happy if they put a stop to this as it ruins the game big time.

wraith808 · April 2015

Heromofo wrote: »

Veteran ranks never bothered me and my mates. What made us leave first time around as im giving it a second go for console. It is the massive breaking story that you become heroes of your enemies sides. Id be more happy if they put a stop to this as it ruins the game big time.

You don't actually become heroes of your enemies. The story explains it.

As you're a hero and will be going to Cyrodiil, Meridia wants you to experience your enemies so that you understand them. So it's a what if fortune had put you in a different location. That way, your conflicts will be tempered by understanding.

Enodoc · April 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Anoteros wrote: »

Ysne58 wrote: »

I'm still not seeing how they can remove vet levels without screwing this up. It would be a lot easier to handle and feel much less grindy if there were other options (new content please please please).

Convert the vet ranks into CP, add some gear tiers, scale the content accordingly, increase level cap to 60 or whatever, open up the world from the get go. This is supposed to be Tamriel 'Unlimited' right? All I see is corridor progression through zones. Hardly unlimited.
See it's not that difficult to think of solutions.

psufan5 wrote: »

1. Start gaining CP at level 1
2. Remove VR levels, and give players 70 CP points to compensate.

This has already happened. ZOS stated that the CP we got at the start of the Champion System launch was all we were getting for our Vet ranks. When they remove vet ranks, there is not going to be any additional CP handed out.

They can't *just* do that. They've already said that the stat and skill points are not going to be taken away. So... is there going to be a gap that can *never* be closed? 70 CP, you can get those, and they are a consideration for the time already spent, and the lesser number of XP that can realistically be gained from content as you've already done the content. But if you remove those levels, then those skill and stat points that are different because of it can never be gained.

Don't look at what they're saying, look at the hidden ramifications. Then you begin to see that it's not easy, and not a simple fix.

The stupid thing is that they specifically introduced this problem in 1.5. Before then, increased VRs didn't give extra attribute points (I don't think they gave skill points either, but they may have). If they had just left it as it was, they would be able to remove VRs without this issue.

As it stands though, there are a few ways they can continue distributing those extra 13 points once VRs are removed (assume that "removal" here is "everything becomes 50"):

Everyone gets 14 points as soon as they hit 50
You gain 1 point every 1,000,000 XP over 50 up to 13 points, but there are no ranks assigned along with it
You gain 1 point every time you get 1/3/x CPs, up to 13 points

wraith808 · April 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Anoteros wrote: »

Ysne58 wrote: »

I'm still not seeing how they can remove vet levels without screwing this up. It would be a lot easier to handle and feel much less grindy if there were other options (new content please please please).

Convert the vet ranks into CP, add some gear tiers, scale the content accordingly, increase level cap to 60 or whatever, open up the world from the get go. This is supposed to be Tamriel 'Unlimited' right? All I see is corridor progression through zones. Hardly unlimited.
See it's not that difficult to think of solutions.

psufan5 wrote: »

1. Start gaining CP at level 1
2. Remove VR levels, and give players 70 CP points to compensate.

This has already happened. ZOS stated that the CP we got at the start of the Champion System launch was all we were getting for our Vet ranks. When they remove vet ranks, there is not going to be any additional CP handed out.

They can't *just* do that. They've already said that the stat and skill points are not going to be taken away. So... is there going to be a gap that can *never* be closed? 70 CP, you can get those, and they are a consideration for the time already spent, and the lesser number of XP that can realistically be gained from content as you've already done the content. But if you remove those levels, then those skill and stat points that are different because of it can never be gained.

Don't look at what they're saying, look at the hidden ramifications. Then you begin to see that it's not easy, and not a simple fix.

The stupid thing is that they specifically introduced this problem in 1.5. Before then, increased VRs didn't give extra attribute points (I don't think they gave skill points either, but they may have). If they had just left it as it was, they would be able to remove VRs without this issue.

As it stands though, there are a few ways they can continue distributing those extra 13 points once VRs are removed (assume that "removal" here is "everything becomes 50"):
Everyone gets 14 points as soon as they hit 50

You gain 1 point every 1,000,000 XP over 50 up to 13 points, but there are no ranks assigned along with it

You gain 1 point every time you get 1/3/x CPs, up to 13 points

Other way around. They gave attribute points... but they were just auto-distributed (all into health?). No skill points, however. But people rightfully complained that VRs gave you *nothing*. I remember the first time I went up a VR, and I didn't know that they gave you nothing. I was not a happy camper.

Endenium · April 2015

So Ive read most of the comments on this thread, and from what I see the argument is dominated by those of us that realize that leveling from v1 to v14 is a slow and painful process. It takes too long and requires too much repetition to achieve the goal in mind.

Now on the other side of this are people who have nothing more insightful to argue than "so what? if you don't like it, don't play it."

When I hear that, I cant help but imagine a wheezy, nasally sounding kid with 10,000 pimples, pushing up his glasses with his finger, then crossing his arms as if he has said anything relevant whatsoever in any way possible.

Now please, allow me to answer that most ridiculous of questions and that most absurd rhetoric. With caps lock, of course.

BECAUSE WE WANT TO PLAY THE ESO GAME THAT WE SHOULD BE PLAYING.

BECAUSE OUR TIME HAS VALUE, AND WE DO NOT WISH TO WASTE IT ON A SUB PAR GAMING EXPERIENCE.

BECAUSE WE LOVE THE ELDER SCROLLS AND OUR HEARTS ACHE WHEN IT IS TURNED INTO A CHEAP COMMODITY LIKE A FREE TO PLAY MOBILE GAME.

BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF QUALITY VERSUS QUANTITY.

Ok? Do you get it now?

We want this game to be FUN. Not a giant money pit. Not a time vortex that just sucks our souls away right along with our youth..

We all put money into this game. Therefore, we should all get a say in how it is managed and how it is developed. That is the very reason ZOS created the forums for us.

So if your only argument in support of the redundant and arduous, obnoxiously long journey from v1 to v14 is to tell people to stop playing, then you shouldn't be too surprised when they actually do quit playing. Actually, a lot of us did. ZOS had to drop the subscription model just to get people back into it. But if you think that subscriptions are the only reason that people quit playing, then you're crazy.

People play video games for FUN. Amusement. The thrill of overcoming a challenge in a stimulating and entertaining way.

Nobody plays a video game to get headaches and start growing gray hair.

And even though we realize that there are some redeemable qualities in the current vet rank system, in the end, its simply too painful to endure - 8 times over for those of us who want to use all 8 of our character slots.

Since when did gaming become a full time job?

It shouldn't be that way.

So stop fighting us on the issue and JOIN us.

If we are all on the same page, we can get ZOS to listen to us and give us the game that we want.